Photo ID Card?

antoobrien · 13-01-2015 10:21am

trellheim wrote: »

What national database are you lot talking about.

The one that doesn't exist yet.

SpaceTime · 13-01-2015 9:32pm

Yes, it is enforced. A colleague of mine from England was pulled over in France for failing to display one.

Sam Russell · 15-01-2015 11:24am

trellheim wrote: »

What national database are you lot talking about. This is Ireland not CSI Miami.

There has to be a database of passports issued at the very least - they were able to lift my photo off it.

antoobrien · 16-01-2015 12:22pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

There has to be a database of passports issued at the very least - they were able to lift my photo off it.

The problem is that there's no one database, because as the laws stand the data that DSP have can't be shared with other departments e.g. Foreign Affairs (passports) or Environment (driving licenses) and vice versa.

bk wrote: »

They would need to hack the national database or more realistically bride or black mail someone who has access to it to do it.

There are still ways around this, such as the social welfare fraud case that is in court this week. A man used 6 different identities generated using papers bought in England to claim welfare here over an 11 year period. He was only caught as somebody noticed that 4 claimants had the same picture.

Bray Head · 17-01-2015 9:17am

I learned a while ago at the complete frustration of a lot of the diplomats who get posted to Dublin at the lack of any national ID card system. It's particularly problematic when it comes to opening a bank account given the need for utility bills and the like.

Yes, these are the people who are sent here by foreign governments under international treaties with all the relevant paperwork. They are about as legal and legitimate an immigrant as you can get, yet they cannot open a bank account. Some of them end up living on credit cards for months.

Carawaystick · 22-01-2015 2:28am

Would they not use their existing bank accounts with a IBAN where the I stands for International?

murphaph · 22-01-2015 11:39am

Carawaystick wrote: »

Would they not use their existing bank accounts with a IBAN where the I stands for International?

I think you're confusing SEPA and IBAN?

A bank account in the SEPA would indeed allow bills to be paid from it, but I suppose a diplomat coming from a non-SEPA country is less likely to have a SEPA account. A US account will have an IBAN, but it will be impossible to set up a direct debit on it from Ireland as it is not SEPA and uses a totally different payment system.

munchkin_utd · 22-01-2015 12:32pm

Bray Head wrote: »

I learned a while ago at the complete frustration of a lot of the diplomats who get posted to Dublin at the lack of any national ID card system. It's particularly problematic when it comes to opening a bank account given the need for utility bills and the like.
<snip>

how would an id card system for irish people make any difference in the slightest to someone of a different nationality arriving into Ireland?

if you mean a system of registering your address, then thats different and completely independent from id cards as foreign people in countries with that system can register as a resident in a certain place but still arent entited to a national id card.

bk · 26-01-2015 11:25am

munchkin_utd wrote: »

how would an id card system for irish people make any difference in the slightest to someone of a different nationality arriving into Ireland?

A national ID typically wouldn't just be for Irish people. It would be for anyone staying here for an extended period of time (e.g. foreign students, studying for a year, etc.).

That is the norm with national ID cards across Europe.

So lets say a foreign diplomat arrives in Ireland and expects to be living here for the next year or so. First thing they do is go to the national id service and get issued with their national id card. They can then use this card for opening bank accounts, opening gas, electricity, broadband accounts, etc.

munchkin_utd · 26-01-2015 11:48am

bk wrote: »

That is the norm with national ID cards across Europe.

is it though? I actually thought it was the opposite.
Germany has an id card only for citizens, as does France, Austria , Belgium , and I'd go through them one by one if I had the time

Alun · 26-01-2015 11:53am

From my own experience (NL, D) that's right, only citizens have normal ID cards, and foreigners have some kind of special non-resident's ID card. In Germany it was called an Aufenthaltserlaubnis and in Netherlands a Verblijfskaart although things may have changed since I was there.

murphaph · 26-01-2015 12:29pm

bk wrote: »

That is the norm with national ID cards across Europe.

I don't think it is but it really should be. I know that Spain does issue ID cards to non-citizens.

murphaph · 26-01-2015 12:30pm

Alun wrote: »

From my own experience (NL, D) that's right, only citizens have normal ID cards, and foreigners have some kind of special non-resident's ID card. In Germany it was called an Aufenthaltserlaubnis and in Netherlands a Verblijfskaart although things may have changed since I was there.

EU foreigners don't get any card in Germany any more.

munchkin_utd · 26-01-2015 1:26pm

Anyhow, its announced and will be available to existing passport holders only from July, and will have a big dirty "PASSPORT" across it to emphisise that its a travel document and not a national "id card" (whatever that indeed my be defined as)

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0126/675641-passport-card/

irishgeo · 26-01-2015 1:26pm

http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0126/675641-passport-card/

An interesting development for €35 and the ability to apply via an app.

munchkin_utd · 26-01-2015 1:43pm

on the DFA website theres more info, including stuff not pointed out by RTE.

The card will have a maximum validity of 5 years (or the remaining validity of an individual’s passport book) and will cost €35.

Citizens can only apply online or through the free app on phone/tablet.

https://www.dfa.ie/news-and-media/press-releases/press-release-archive/2015/january/minister-flanagan-announces-new-passport-card/

my passport is up in a couple of years so I'll have to decide if its worth the cost to just get it for the couple of years remaining.
On the balance of it I might just do it seeing as its just a weight off the shoulders to have a real valid ID on you rather than relying on blue eyes and irish charm to convince a policeman doing their random id checks that you are who you say you are.

Sam Russell · 26-01-2015 2:59pm

There are a lot of advantages to having it. It will be harder to lose that a standard passport; it will be easier to carry and could be carried in a wallet with all your credit cards. It will be a real loss if someone steals your wallet though.

irishgeo · 26-01-2015 3:17pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

There are a lot of advantages to having it. It will be harder to lose that a standard passport; it will be easier to carry and could be carried in a wallet with all your credit cards. It will be a real loss if someone steals your wallet though.

Now will ryanair accept as valid for flights?

Sam Russell · 26-01-2015 3:46pm

irishgeo wrote: »

Now will ryanair accept as valid for flights?

Of course.

gamblor101 · 26-01-2015 4:27pm

€70 every ten years versus €80 odd for a full passport. Not much of an incentive to be honest.

bk · 26-01-2015 5:16pm

irishgeo wrote: »

Now will ryanair accept as valid for flights?

Of course, they are legally required to, just as they are required to accept all valid EU passport and national ID cards, such as the one my Polish ex uses on Ryanair every day.

I have to say I'm delighted by this and I can't wait to get it. It will reduce the stress of always having to carry a passport.

I hated having to carry my passport while out at pubs in the US, always afraid I'd lose it and a pain in my pocket. Also the same when I go to pick up a package from an post.

It will be good when travelling outside the EU. Leave the passport in the hotel and carry this with me instead. Use this card for ID renting cars, at bars, etc. If my wallet gets stolen, still have the passport save back at the hotel. If the passport gets stolen, then still have this card which makes it easier to prove who I am at the embassy. Redundancy is good.

However I wish they just came right at with a proper national ID card that integrated all the various cards we are now ending up with.

I see no reason why the information on the passport card, immigration card, driving license, social welfare card and free travel pass can't all be integrated along with your address and a digital signature on an optional national ID card.

Just one €35 charge, rather then €35 for the driving license card + €35 for the passport card, etc. and far more versatile.

I suppose they are taking baby steps towards doing this. Probably want to get people use to it slowly first.

munchkin_utd · 26-01-2015 5:16pm

gamblor101 wrote: »

€70 every ten years versus €80 odd for a full passport. Not much of an incentive to be honest.

its not a replacement, its an addition.
You still need a full passport to be elligable for a passport card.

so your pricing is actually €80 for a full passport plus the cost of the additonal card version.

Sam Russell · 26-01-2015 5:38pm

They could make it a option to take it with your new passport at a lower charge - say €10, or even a free add on. It would reduce the costs of replacement passports due to them being loss, misplaced or stolen.

murpho999 · 26-01-2015 5:48pm

Like the idea of this but feel they have missed an opportunity with this.

Firstly, in other countries people can choose for either a passport or EU travel card. So someone who just goes to Spain once a year on holiday should be able to just have the small card instead of having to have a passport as well.

Also, why couldn't the combine other data such as driving licence, blood group, donor donation choices on it?

One card for everything would be very useful.

Sam Russell · 26-01-2015 6:10pm

It is probably early days.

It is easy for them to just use the passport file to generate the new ID Passport card. When that is bedded in, they may well expand it to an 'instead' option instead on an 'as well' one.

They need to do the leg work to get as many countries to accept it as equivalent to the normal passport.

How do they handle visas, entry stamps, etc.? No problem within the EU, or EFTA, but other countries?

foggy_lad · 26-01-2015 6:12pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

There are a lot of advantages to having it. It will be harder to lose that a standard passport; it will be easier to carry and could be carried in a wallet with all your credit cards. It will be a real loss if someone steals your wallet though.

I may be shot down for even suggesting this but to me that card looks very like it will be the same size or just slightly smaller than the current passport, if that turns out to be the case it will be not be of any real benefit. The back will have a hologram of the bearers picture as well as all the security features which currently appear on the normal passport's photo page.

Sam Russell · 26-01-2015 6:41pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

I may be shot down for even suggesting this but to me that card looks very like it will be the same size or just slightly smaller than the current passport, if that turns out to be the case it will be not be of any real benefit. The back will have a hologram of the bearers picture as well as all the security features which currently appear on the normal passport's photo page.

It will be credit card size, otherwise it will be useless. It will be like the Public Service Card or the CC Drivers Licence. The writing is very small.

munchkin_utd · 26-01-2015 6:56pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

<snip>
They need to do the leg work to get as many countries to accept it as equivalent to the normal passport.

How do they handle visas, entry stamps, etc.? No problem within the EU, or EFTA, but other countries?

the point is that the vast majority of travel is within the EU, and even at that the majority is to the uk (and majority of that with a beligerant airline that only takes passports/ id cards)

so for the majority this will be useful.
And for round the world spins to see some class of a cave in deepest peru you still have your book passport which has all the paper pages you'll ever need.

foggy_lad · 26-01-2015 7:25pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

It will be credit card size, otherwise it will be useless. It will be like the Public Service Card or the CC Drivers Licence. The writing is very small.

Just confirmed on six one news that it will be credit card sized but it will be impossible to read with so much information squeezed into such a small card. I presume it wont have to have the biometric thingy that the Americans insist on as it will only be for travel within the EEA/EU

Fred Swanson · 26-01-2015 7:42pm

This post has been deleted.

munchkin_utd · 26-01-2015 8:00pm

foggy_lad wrote: »

Just confirmed on six one news that it will be credit card sized but it will be impossible to read with so much information squeezed into such a small card. I presume it wont have to have the biometric thingy that the Americans insist on as it will only be for travel within the EEA/EU

I d presume it would as the card has the chip symbol on it and it requires having a passport already, which means you've already submitted a biometric photo.

Whether the us takes a card format passport rather than a standard one with a dozen pages that aren't needed is another question.
If you look again at the image, this is a passport (in capitals in Irish English and French ) , not a national ID card, so maybe it's ok?

murpho999 · 26-01-2015 8:07pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

It is probably early days.

It is easy for them to just use the passport file to generate the new ID Passport card. When that is bedded in, they may well expand it to an 'instead' option instead on an 'as well' one.

They need to do the leg work to get as many countries to accept it as equivalent to the normal passport.

How do they handle visas, entry stamps, etc.? No problem within the EU, or EFTA, but other countries?

Not an issue as it's for EU/EEA use as it is already by other EU citizens where no actual visa is required.
Bear in mind that EU citizens with the card can already enter Ireland with it so there will be no issue with the Irish one.

Sam Russell · 26-01-2015 8:25pm

I was thinking of countries like Turkey, Canada, USA, South America, Australia, and perhaps India and China. Some countries charge for visas, some need prior application. Most countries like to stamp entry and exit dates.

If Ireland gets agreement on virtual stamps it would be some coup.

munchkin_utd · 26-01-2015 8:45pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

I was thinking of countries like Turkey, Canada, USA, South America, Australia, and perhaps India and China. Some countries charge for visas, some need prior application. Most countries like to stamp entry and exit dates.

If Ireland gets agreement on virtual stamps it would be some coup.

Not sure if that's on the cards, and anyhow as it stands you still need to have the flappy passport before getting the compact version.

Sam Russell · 26-01-2015 8:47pm

munchkin_utd wrote: »

Not sure if that's on the cards, and anyhow as it stands you still need to have the flappy passport before getting the compact version.

Read post #126 again. They will have to do leg work to get it accepted by as many countries as possible. That would require those countries to do something about visas and date stamps.

murpho999 · 26-01-2015 9:39pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

Read post #126 again. They will have to do leg work to get it accepted by as many countries as possible. That would require those countries to do something about visas and date stamps.

Sorry but no leg work is required as you are misunderstanding what it is.

You will still need passports for the countries outside the EU as stamps and visas are required.
This is simply for use within the EU and Ireland is late to the party.

murphaph · 26-01-2015 10:22pm

I don't want to be too negative but it's a bit silly that the card doesn't have the exact same validity dates as the passport book. This is supplementary to the book, so why not just let it always be valid in parallel (if the card option is taken up)...

The 5 year max validity is totally arbitrary and designed to create a revenue stream. The details on the card are the same as the book, so why the artificially restricted validity??

Sam Russell · 26-01-2015 10:39pm

Book passport lose validity when they run out of pages.

BowWow · 26-01-2015 11:11pm

murphaph wrote: »

I don't want to be too negative but it's a bit silly that the card doesn't have the exact same validity dates as the passport book. This is supplementary to the book, so why not just let it always be valid in parallel (if the card option is taken up)...

The 5 year max validity is totally arbitrary and designed to create a revenue stream. The details on the card are the same as the book, so why the artificially restricted validity??

Expiry date of card will match Passport.

From Dept Site -
"The card will have a maximum validity of 5 years (or the remaining validity of an individual’s passport book)"

foggy_lad · 26-01-2015 11:12pm

murpho999 wrote: »

Sorry but no leg work is required as you are misunderstanding what it is.

You will still need passports for the countries outside the EU as stamps and visas are required.
This is simply for use within the EU and Ireland is late to the party.

Ireland will be the first with this card passport i thought?

Remember this is NOT an ID card, It is a passport. it may be accepted in some countries including Ireland as identification but these places can just as easily refuse to see it as identification but purely as a passport.

Victor · 27-01-2015 1:22am

Articles: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/new-credit-card-sized-passport-will-allow-travel-within-eu-1.2079757 and: http://www.rte.ie/news/2015/0126/675641-passport-card/

murphaph wrote: »

The 5 year max validity is totally arbitrary and designed to create a revenue stream. The details on the card are the same as the book, so why the artificially restricted validity??

What about the encryption on the chip (I presume it has one)? Do standard passports have chips? Will the cards suffer more wear and tear than standard passport?

BowWow wrote: »

Expiry date of card will match Passport.

From Dept Site -
"The card will have a maximum validity of 5 years (or the remaining validity of an individual’s passport book)"

... whichever happens first.

Most passports are valid for 10 years.

murphaph · 27-01-2015 7:04am

BowWow wrote: »

Expiry date of card will match Passport.

From Dept Site -
"The card will have a maximum validity of 5 years (or the remaining validity of an individual’s passport book)"

My passport expires in 6 years. If I get this card in July the card will expire around 6 months before main passport. If I then renew the card it will expire 6 months later. See the problem?

embraer170 · 27-01-2015 9:12am

Good step forward but I fail to see why they had to call it "Passport" when just about every other EU / EEA country calls their card "ID Card". The only country I am aware of that uses the term passport for a card is the US, and even there it is very clearly "Passport Card".

Airlines and others in the travel business will have endless arguments about the passport card and it not being valid outside the EU / EEA. Customer: "The entry requirements say "Passport", and look this card says "Passport". Airline: "Well no, you need the other type of passport". Etc. etc.

The potential for confusion is not helped by the phrase at the back of the card "This passport remains the property of...".

Sample ID cards from other countries giving holders the same travel privileges as the Irish passport card. Every single one of them says identity card:

antoobrien · 27-01-2015 10:00am

murphaph wrote: »

My passport expires in 6 years. If I get this card in July the card will expire around 6 months before main passport. If I then renew the card it will expire 6 months later. See the problem?

Nothing stopping you from renewing both at the same time.

munchkin_utd · 27-01-2015 11:04am

murphaph wrote: »

My passport expires in 6 years. If I get this card in July the card will expire around 6 months before main passport. If I then renew the card it will expire 6 months later. See the problem?

Well, at least you'd get the 5 years out of it.
Mine will have a few months less than 2 years on it come july !

Also, if you think about it it mightnt be that much of a problem for you as you are saying, as no doubt you'd want to renew it a few months in advance anyhow so it'd be a few months before the actual expiry date, meaning you'd have less than 6months without the passport card.

bk · 27-01-2015 11:26am

First of all, this new card follows all the rules laid down by the EU to pass as a valid ID card and thus is valid for Irish citizens for all travel within the EEA and Switzerland.

While not proof, it has even already been added to the wikipedia list of European national ID cards:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_identity_cards_in_the_European_Economic_Area

The above page has a list of photos of national id cards from around Europe and you will notice that this card is almost exactly the same as the rest of them, with the most important part being the machine readable passport information on the lower backside of the card, same as all the other national id cards.

The card also has biometric data and RFID just like the passport.

I assume this card won't be valid for travel, to the US, etc. Though still useful to have when going there (leave passport in hotel when going out to pubs at night and need ID).

The Department of Foreign Affairs will hopefully do some work to get this card accepted by Turkey, Egypt, etc. who already accept many EU national ID cards, but don't legally have to accept this card.

Foggy, what are you on about it being too small?

This card is exactly the same size as national id cards throughout Europe and also the new drivers license, which BTW has more information on it. So if it isn't an issue for almost every citizen of the EU, I don't see why it would be for us.

bk · 27-01-2015 11:30am

I do have some complaints about it.

- Expensive at €35 + fees
- Only valid for 5 years, most EU national ID cards are valid for 10 years
- Being dishonest about it and calling it a passport card when really it is a national ID card.
- Not going the full hog and integrating the medical card, social welfare card, free travel pass, etc. into it.

munchkin_utd · 27-01-2015 11:43am

bk wrote: »

<snip>
- Not going the full hog and integrating the medical card, social welfare card, free travel pass, etc. into it.

to be honest, if they did the latter, which is logical, there'd be blood on the streets and the thing would never get introduced - as happened in the uk.

best to get it in, and then let the public get used to it and let the calls from the public be the driver to have everything merged.

I also like the idea of a passport card (as a name) as it sets it apart from the id card systems in europe which are intended in the main and originaly introduced as something to be used at home rather for travel.
i.e. in Belgium the ID cards were first introduced by the Nazis to control the population, not for holiday purposes!

embraer170 · 27-01-2015 2:34pm

It is a pity that we wait years for a national ID and end up with poorer than most similar documents elsewhere in the EU (validity, need to have a normal passport in addition to this).

bk wrote: »

The Department of Foreign Affairs will hopefully do some work to get this card accepted by Turkey, Egypt, etc. who already accept many EU national ID cards, but don't legally have to accept this card.

Does it actually matter when you need an actual passport to get this card (unlike most other EU national IDs, which can be issued independently of the passport).

I am sure this will be a source of significant confusion to those traveling outside of the EU. When a passport is not actually a passport.

bk · 27-01-2015 5:18pm

embraer170 wrote: »

I am sure this will be a source of significant confusion to those traveling outside of the EU. When a passport is not actually a passport.

Yes, that is a very good point.

A national ID card which just happens to be usable as a travel card inside the EEA seems different to a passport card (though in reality exactly the same).

I agree that I think there will be lots of people who will confuse it and will try and use it heading to the US, etc.

Though to be honest, any country who doesn't actually stamp your passport, should really have no problem accepting this. It really isn't any different from the ID page of your passport book.

In fact I expect most countries will in time do away with stamps altogether. It is basically unnecessary in this day and age of computer databases.

I wonder if you can get this card, without also getting a passport book.

I could imagine people just getting one of these for EEA travel and only getting a passport book when going further afield (US, etc.).

Also it would be nice if they included this card free when you do get a passport book and the validity period should really be 10 years, same as your passport.

Photo ID Card?

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