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Photo ID Card?

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    #152
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    The big advantage of this CC type of passport is that it is much easier and cheaper to replace than a traditional book passport.


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    #153
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,494 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    The big advantage of this CC type of passport is that it is much easier and cheaper to replace than a traditional book passport.

    Yes it should be, though €35 every 5 years is on the expensive side. Specially as it is an addition to the passport book.

    The social welfare card is free.

    It really should be either max €20 every 5 years or better yet for 10 years.


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    #154
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I meant that it was cheap for the Passport Office. The €35 is a bit of a rip off, but would be very popular if it was available instead of the standard passport book version.

    They should give it free to new passport applications after it is proved worthwhile to them. The current passport book is more expensive than they charge. The CC version must be very cheap in comparison.

    I do not understand the 5 yr validity.


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    #155
    embraer170
    Registered Users Posts: 2,422 ✭✭✭embraer170


    bk wrote: »
    I agree that I think there will be lots of people who will confuse it and will try and use it heading to the US, etc.

    If you look at the confusion that exists already regarding travel document requirement, this will do a good job at making things far wore. The number of people who show up at airports with the wrong travel document, an expired travel document, without visas, or without checking the requirements of the country they are traveling through (US being a key example), is already high.

    I can only imagine airlines and other travel provider now having to tell Irish people that what is labelled as a passport (front and back!), is actually not a passport. Big fail.
    Though to be honest, any country who doesn't actually stamp your passport, should really have no problem accepting this. It really isn't any different from the ID page of your passport book.

    In fact I expect most countries will in time do away with stamps altogether. It is basically unnecessary in this day and age of computer databases.

    More than wanting to stamp your passport, immigration officers are looking for your travel history and any cases of denied entry/overstay. That won't be relevant for 99% of travelers, but it is for the questionable 1%, which arguably still justifies immigration's job.

    I would also say that not stamping a passport is only an EU/EEA thing. I can think of few other countries that don't normally stamp visitor passports. While there is potential for the development of transnational computer databases (there are already some agreements between the EU-US), I think this will be very slow and painful. States are already slow to contribute to the INTERPOL database of stolen (many don't at all or add their data months/years late) so I cannot imagine something more ambitious anytime soon.
    I wonder if you can get this card, without also getting a passp

    Not at launch and there is no indication it will happen soon.


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    #156
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    embraer170 wrote: »
    I can only imagine airlines and other travel provider now having to tell Irish people that what is labelled as a passport (front and back!), is actually not a passport. Big fail.
    I agree that the thing should be called a "Supplementary passport card" to make it clearer that is is not a normal passport and will be restricted in its acceptance. Here in Germany you can get a special passport for kids up to age 12. It is however not a biometric passport, so is not valid for travel to one country on earth....the United States. The advantage of the kiddies passprt is it costs just €12 and it can be updated with a new photo as the kids grow for just €6. I'm just pointing out that restricted passports that aren't valid everywhere are not an exclusively Irish phenomenon.

    The arbitrary 5 year validity is inexplicable. I'd love to see the minutes of the meeting where that was decided!

    Someone said you can just renew both at the same time, but that means potentially throwing away a perfectly valid passport book (and the money it cost!).

    To be honest I'm gonna pass on this card and just naturalise here. I can then avail of the German travel documents which are cheaper and much easier to apply for and renew here (just pop down to town hall, rather than trying to negotiate the renewal process for an Irish passport, which is sometimes a pain abroad as the police (where you usually go in Ireland) won't generally stamp the forms and they find it strange that your old passport isn't proof enough of your identity!


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    #157
    trellheim
    Registered Users Posts: 5,863 ✭✭✭trellheim


    This is all BS of the highest order
    travel docs :
    Old Driving License - IE and UK
    New Driving License - IE and UK but you have to do stupendously OTT pre-ID
    Passport Card = EU only for those countries that sign up
    Traditional Passport = All Countries

    So we have 4 different documents accepted for international travel. Sounds like someone is making a bit of money off it.


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    #158
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users Posts: 7,847 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    trellheim wrote: »
    This is all BS of the highest order
    travel docs :
    Old Driving License - IE and UK
    New Driving License - IE and UK but you have to do stupendously OTT pre-ID
    Passport Card = EU only for those countries that sign up
    Traditional Passport = All Countries

    So we have 4 different documents accepted for international travel. Sounds like someone is making a bit of money off it.
    not really true.
    To get to the uk you do not need any id at all.
    You can cross the border to the uk by land, and no id is needed.
    Cross by sea, and no id is needed.
    To fly, airlines want photo id (and a works pass or other id will also suffice) but thats a security thing rather than immigration.

    that theres a card ID and passport separate is the normal situation on the continent and has been for decades.
    Just because Ireland didnt have it, and the UK doesnt, doesnt mean that its a weird and wrong idea.

    Dozens of countries across europe have ID cards and passports separate so this is ireland becoming the same as the rest, rather than becoming different.


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    #159
    gamblor101
    Registered Users Posts: 158 ✭✭gamblor101


    Why couldn't they just call it an ID card and let it be optional to sign up?
    It would have the same travel rights as any other EU National ID card and people with privacy or "Big Brother" fears wouldn't be compelled to get one.
    Everyone wins


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    #160
    ardmacha
    Registered Users Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    embraer170 wrote: »

    I can only imagine airlines and other travel provider now having to tell Irish people that what is labelled as a passport (front and back!), is actually not a passport. Big fail.

    .

    Absolutely. They should be able to write restricted passport or suchlike on it or just call it an ID card!


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    #161
    namloc1980
    Registered Users Posts: 18,074 ✭✭✭✭namloc1980


    What is the actual purpose of this card and why is it so expensive? €35 plus fees on top of the normal passport fee of €80. And the 5 year validity is ludicrous when the paper passport is 10. They can't use the wear and tear excuse as the new driving licence cards are 10 year cards. What's the real reason? Just another gouging exercise?

    Also why is charlie Flanagan saying this is the world's first passport card?

    FT5S+Irish+passport+card+photocall.jpg


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    #162
    K.Flyer
    Registered Users Posts: 8,565 ✭✭✭K.Flyer


    35.00 euro for a 5 year shrunken down version of the I.D. section of my passport, they can stick it where the sun don't shone.
    I have nothing against a national ID card, but thats taking the p!$$.
    I'll stick to my passport and driving licence if I'm going any further than the U.K. for now, thanks, but no thanks.


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    #163
    thomasj
    Registered Users Posts: 4,789 ✭✭✭thomasj


    gamblor101 wrote: »
    Why couldn't they just call it an ID card and let it be optional to sign up?
    It would have the same travel rights as any other EU National ID card and people with privacy or "Big Brother" fears wouldn't be compelled to get one.
    Everyone wins

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/moving_country/moving_abroad/freedom_of_movement_within_the_eu/free_movement_of_people_within_the_schengen_area.html

    Explains why countries allow their citizens to use their national id cards when moving about in the "schengen region"
    Internal frontiers are defined as the national boundaries between the countries taking part in the Schengen Convention, together with airports and seaports in the case of traffic to and from a Schengen country. Travellers may cross the internal frontiers wherever and whenever they like without having to undergo personal checks. However, anyone who enters or leaves the Schengen zone is subject to the normal checks.

    This does not mean that you can travel without identity documents. Many of the countries concerned require their own citizens as well as others to carry some form of ID. You may need a passport or other form of ID to establish your entitlement to travel freely.

    Ireland and uk is not part of schengen agreement and unless they join schengen by July, arrangements will remain the same.
    Ireland is not part of the Schengen arrangements on travel and visas. It is open to Ireland to take part in these arrangements if all of the Schengen members and a representative of the Irish government vote unanimously in favour within the Council of the EU. This means that Irish people are subject to passport checks at the borders of other EU member states

    Hence, why Ireland and UK is treated differently to other European countries at airports like schipol or Paris CDG.

    I haven't seen the card in flesh, but judging by the features highlighted by DFA in their press release, its going to have the same features as the full passport baring the pages used for visas, which would not be used in europe in anyway. This card will provide the information on the last page of a passport along with the chip that airports can use to scan information and security features etc.

    Its a mini passport, that's all, not compulsory. Just handy for travel within Europe or I'd purposes.

    If Ireland was to introduce national Id, it wouldn't be accepted in Europe as Ireland is not part of the above agreement.


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    #164
    thomasj
    Registered Users Posts: 4,789 ✭✭✭thomasj


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    Also why is charlie Flanagan saying this is the world's first passport card?

    FT5S+Irish+passport+card+photocall.jpg

    Its not as such, the US has one for travel to canada, mexico and Caribbean states but can only be used for land or sea travel.

    For air travel purposes, this is the worlds first passport card.


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    #165
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    thomasj wrote: »
    If Ireland was to introduce national Id, it wouldn't be accepted in Europe as Ireland is not part of the above agreement.
    That can't be right. We accept all those national ID cards at Irish ports of entry as it is, even though we are not in the Schengen Zone.


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    #166
    thomasj
    Registered Users Posts: 4,789 ✭✭✭thomasj


    murphaph wrote: »
    That can't be right. We accept all those national ID cards at Irish ports of entry as it is, even though we are not in the Schengen Zone.

    I didn't know that , but got this from the ec site,
    EU citizens, with the exception of citizens from Ireland and the United Kingdom, have the right to enter and travel around any other Member State without having to comply with any special formalities. All that may be required is a valid passport or identity card. As neither Ireland nor the United Kingdom are parties to the Schengen Agreement, Irish and UK citizens must present a passport when entering other Member States.

    http://ec.europa.eu/ireland/the_eu_and_you/faq/mobility/index_en.htm

    That page also states
    As a French citizen, you can travel to Poland and to any other country of the EU simply on production of a valid passport or identity card, if requested.


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    #167
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #168
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    But the DFA had to go around and get a load of bilateral agreements with all these Schengen states for this card, so they could presumably have gotten these agreements for an optional national ID card as well.


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    #169
    thomasj
    Registered Users Posts: 4,789 ✭✭✭thomasj


    murphaph wrote: »
    But the DFA had to go around and get a load of bilateral agreements with all these Schengen states for this card, so they could presumably have gotten these agreements for an optional national ID card as well.

    But could they have introduced national ID cards With agreement from all the schengen countries without signing up to the schengen agreement?


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    #170
    thomasj
    Registered Users Posts: 4,789 ✭✭✭thomasj


    namloc1980 wrote: »
    And the 5 year validity is ludicrous when the paper passport is 10.

    FT5S+Irish+passport+card+photocall.jpg

    According to the DFA press release on the passport card
    The Passport Card has a maximum validity of 5 years or the remaining validity of the Passport book.

    So , if your passport has only got 2 years left on it, that's how long your passport card will be valid for.


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    #171
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    thomasj wrote: »
    But could they have introduced national ID cards With agreement from all the schengen countries without signing up to the schengen agreement?
    That I don't know, but national ID cards predate Schengen by decades, so I suspect the Schengen states would not have had a problem with it. The Schengen states know that Ireland has nothing in principle against Schengen and that we are effectively hamstrung by the United Kingdom's refusal to enter, because we maintain a politically sensitive land border with UK that we cannot realistically fortify or police.

    An example of a state with a national ID card taht is NOT in Schengen, but whose ID cards are acceptable for travel into the Schengen Zone is Cyprus:

    http://prado.consilium.europa.eu/EN/categories/CYP/B/resultByCountryCategory.html

    Cypriús has not entered Schengen because of their own border issue with Northern Cyprus. I see absolutely no reason why an Irish national ID card would not have been treated like Cypriot national ID cards.


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    #172
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,494 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Folks this has absolutely nothing to do with Schengen, which is completely separate.

    All citizens of EEA have the right to free travel, they however may have to prove that they are actually a citizen of the EEA to do so. This agreement allows for valid national ID card to be used to do so.

    So this new passport card falls under this existing treaty and no further agreements need to be negotiated with other EEA members to allow this card to be used.

    Also this new card fully falls under the EU guidelines for new national id cards, for instance it looks almost exactly the same as the German national ID card.

    Schengen is entirely different, it is actually the removal of border checkpoints between countries. You are still required to carry ID if you are stopped by police, etc. However there are no actual border checks.

    Think of it like our border with Northern Ireland. You can just drive to Northern Ireland and no one will stop you at the border and ask you for your passport. Schengen is this but for the rest of Europe, you can drive from France to Germany and there is no border checkpoints.


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    #173
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Deedsie wrote: »
    Could Brexit bring back the idea of a compulsory national ID card on the island of Ireland as one way to keep the border open?

    They would be required by all UK residents if they want to maintain the Common Travel Area.

    It would also allow the UK greater control of illegal migrants.

    In Ireland, we would use the Credit Card (or full) passport or new driving licence, or a yet to be introduced national ID card.


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    #174
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Deedsie wrote: »
    None of them are compulsory (unless you are driving you are required to have your driving license with you at all times)

    Well, if you try to go to the UK by Ryanair or Aer Lingus, you need your passport - so there is an element of compulsion.

    If the UK government chooses to make the Irish Sea the border for migrant control, then they need some photo ID. The difficulty arises from the need for NI residents to have to show photo ID going into GB, which for political reasons cannot be a passport.

    I wish them good luck with that.


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    #175
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,903 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Well, if you try to go to the UK by Ryanair or Aer Lingus, you need your passport - so there is an element of compulsion.

    If the UK government chooses to make the Irish Sea the border for migrant control, then they need some photo ID. The difficulty arises from the need for NI residents to have to show photo ID going into GB, which for political reasons cannot be a passport.

    I wish them good luck with that.

    Unless it's changed recently I've often flown AerLingus to the UK with my drivers licence.

    I think that the only thing we know for sure about Brexit is that no one has any idea of how it will be done and what restrictions are placed on travel and trade.


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    #176
    murphaph
    Registered Users Posts: 19,018 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    They would be required by all UK residents if they want to maintain the Common Travel Area.

    It would also allow the UK greater control of illegal migrants.

    In Ireland, we would use the Credit Card (or full) passport or new driving licence, or a yet to be introduced national ID card.
    How deliciously ironic it would be if they ended up having to carry national ID cards after leaving the EU. I've never seen a problem and see plenty of advantages to them.


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    #177
    Carawaystick
    Registered Users Posts: 8,779 ✭✭✭Carawaystick


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Well, if you try to go to the UK by Ryanair or Aer Lingus, you need your passport - so there is an element of compulsion.
    But you can go from Ireland to the UK by taking about 30 steps out of the Diamond bar in Pettigo...

    Compulsory carrying of an id card would raise countless public order offences, for not carrying it. Like take the race in Dublin tomorrow, how many participants will be carrying id during it?
    Or at any beach with people swimming?

    If you had to carry id, would it be free? Or would there be a charge? and if there was a charge would it be imposed on the destitute in society? Would you need a address to get an id card? What would you do about homeless people? Although if it solved that issue it'd be worth considering.


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    #178
    Del2005
    Registered Users Posts: 18,903 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Carawaystick wrote: »

    Compulsory carrying of an id card would raise countless public order offences, for not carrying it. Like take the race in Dublin tomorrow, how many participants will be carrying id during it?
    Or at any beach with people swimming?

    They could give them the holders that security staff use to keep their ID on their arm. Not that there would be a security check point at mile 20 during a marathon, they already had their ID verified to get a number.


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    #179
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,403 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Carawaystick wrote: »
    But you can go from Ireland to the UK by taking about 30 steps out of the Diamond bar in Pettigo...

    Ryanair do not fly from Dublin to NI, so you would only need ID (currently in the form of a passport for Irish Nationals) if flying to GB. EU passengers can use a National ID Card if they have one.


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    #180
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users Posts: 34,030 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    They would be required by all UK residents if they want to maintain the Common Travel Area.

    It would also allow the UK greater control of illegal migrants.

    In Ireland, we would use the Credit Card (or full) passport or new driving licence, or a yet to be introduced national ID card.

    Driving licence says nothing about your nationality or citizenship, there must be many non-EEA citizens resident here with Irish driving licences.

    Life ain't always empty.



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    #181
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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