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Project Maths

13

Comments

  • #102
    jimkekk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭jimkekk


    ZRelation wrote: »
    I'm gonna say the same to you regarding college courses, just reading up on the 1st year maths syllabus isn't going to tell the whole picture on whats covered.

    Statistics is covered in most engineering courses, even in 'real' universities like UCD. And even though there are no courses or topics titled 'geometry' doesn't mean its not used extensively in other courses like mechanics and structures.




    Having spent 40 years as a secondary school teacher its a bit rich accusing others of not being in 'the real world' when it comes to the later application of maths.
    I did not say I was a secondary school teacher I just said I thaught maths for 40 years .Everything I have said is true check the syllabii for 1st year college maths for Geometry


  • #103
    ZRelation
    Registered Users Posts: 108 ✭✭ZRelation


    jimkekk wrote: »
    I did not say I was a secondary school teacher I just said I thaught maths for 40 years .Everything I have said is true check the syllabii for 1st year college maths for Geometry

    Yes, but what I'm trying to say is that while a course syllabus may not include 'geometry' as topic a fundamental knowledge of the topic may be still be required. Its not just 1st year college level maths courses that rely on what you learn in leaving cert maths.

    And I would see stats as a pretty important part of the syllabus. How often are scientific reports/studies misinterpreted by the press and general public these days? If a student is hoping to go into almost any sort of scientific career then a knowledge of stats will be important.

    All this said it does sound like the new course is being implanted pretty poorly, which is a shame. It sounds like it has/had potential.


  • #104
    Anonymo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 151 ✭✭Anonymo


    jimkekk wrote: »
    I agree with alot of the points made .
    There was very little wrong with the post 94 Syllabus (although it was much easier than the pre 94 syllabus) .Ihave thought higher maths since about 1970 and in my opinion there has been a dumbing down of the course every time they change the syllabus . That is the first point .
    Project maths was introduced to try to increase the numbers doing HLCM .
    The numbers doing HLCM at the moment is about 8000 about 16% of the total taking LCM .
    A committee was formed to address the "problem" this committee decided that what was needed (i)Syllabus change (ii)Change in method of teaching to make maths more relevant.
    The committee then formed made up of mostly of non teachers or teachers with little or no teaching experience . The minister at the time Batt O'Keeffe apointed an ex Rose of Tralee with 6 months teaching experience as a spokesperson and "expert" . The committee was given lots of money and set about trying to change everything that was good about LC maths.
    This committee decided on the Syllabus and on the new methods (rejected in Finland 2007)of teaching .The committee gets most of its information from UL. There was no consultation with teachers or the Irish maths teachers association .
    The imtroduction of Project maths in 5th year was a mistake to much to far and should never have happened .
    The NCCA has produced sample papers which are so out of touch with reality that the SEC wrote to the 24 pilot schools telling them to ignore the NCCA papers. So now those who are implementing the course and deciding the syllabus are at odds with the NCCA .
    It is time for the NCCA project maths committee to resign.

    The dumbing down of the course is apparent from the exam papers (I don't want to harp on about them too much but they do set the tone for the course). Clearly there should be an addressing of the numbers doing Higher level maths at the LC but dumbing down caters to the lowest common denominator. In any case it's unlikely that it's the standard that is the problem. The issue which most students complain about is the size of the course (though for some this is not an issue). The clearest way to address this is to break up the LC exam into two stages ... may have paper one at the end of February and then paper two in June. This would allow for students to concentrate on certain aspects.

    I agree that it's unhealthy that teachers don't make up a more sizeable proportion of the project maths team. However your criticism of the former Rose is unwarranted. In fact it would be better if more of her ilk were onboard. This is someone with a first class degree in theoretical physics and who has pursued a career as a teacher even though she had the opportunity to do a phd. Your criticism can be that the correct balance was not achieved, but to pick a particular example (unfairly in my opinion) does neither yourself nor your argument any favours.

    Aside from this polemic I think we are broadly in agreement that project maths is poorly considered and, thusfar, terribly executed.


  • #105
    jimkekk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭jimkekk


    ZRelation wrote: »
    Yes, but what I'm trying to say is that while a course syllabus may not include 'geometry' as topic a fundamental knowledge of the topic may be still be required. Its not just 1st year college level maths courses that rely on what you learn in leaving cert maths.

    And I would see stats as a pretty important part of the syllabus. How often are scientific reports/studies misinterpreted by the press and general public these days? If a student is hoping to go into almost any sort of scientific career then a knowledge of stats will be important.

    All this said it does sound like the new course is being implanted pretty poorly, which is a shame. It sounds like it has/had potential.
    I have no issue with geometry and statistics being on the HLCM syllabus .
    It is the amount of compulsory Geometry and statistics that I object to!
    I also question the wisdom of removing/reducing other important topics such as parts of algebra ,matrices/vectors/integration/series/Binomial theorem, Max and Min problems in differential calculus .
    also the sine rule has been removed from HJC as has the area of a triangle and of course foundation level maths .
    But my biggest concern is the people in the NCCA who are in charge of Project maths they have produced a series of sample papers which were littered with errors ,contained topics (5)not on the course and which the Dept of Ed instructed the pilot schools to ignore as they did not represent a fair assesment of the syllabus.
    Students in the pilot schools sitting the LCM exam in June are at a serious disadvantage (but they have been assured that they will be looked after).
    Another Irish solution to an Irish problem.
    It is time that there is a complete review of Project maths and the present NCCA committee should resign


  • #106
    LeixlipRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,081 ✭✭✭LeixlipRed


    Your comment about "real" universities just outlines how much credence we can give to your comments. You say you've been teaching for 40 years and yet you have the maturity of one of the pupils you teach.

    I'm not pro Project maths. I'm anti-rote learning. The current LC syllabus and the teachers that teach it are entrenched in this system.


  • #107
    LeixlipRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,081 ✭✭✭LeixlipRed


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Our thphys lecturer in NUIM was appalled at our lack of stats by final year :)


    Hardy har har. Not the point I was trying to make. I was just pointing out that jimkekk was talking through his hole. Statistics and probability theory are essential subjects for any science or social science graduate intending to do research either in postgrad form or in the workplace.


  • #108
    jimkekk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭jimkekk


    LeixlipRed wrote: »
    Hardy har har. Not the point I was trying to make. I was just pointing out that jimkekk was talking through his hole. Statistics and probability theory are essential subjects for any science or social science graduate intending to do research either in postgrad form or in the workplace.
    Stats and probability are not a major part of any first year 3rd level course neither is Euclidian geometry check your facts .They do feature at 2nd and 3rd year but not in first year as I said wheras algebra/calculus/matrices/vectors do.I rest my case .Also most statistical problems at 3rd level involve subbing numbers into computer programs.
    It seems that most of the pro project maths comments come from people who are not involved in teaching the subject at second level and as a result to use a phrase from the previous post he is talking through his hole.


  • #109
    jimkekk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭jimkekk


    LeixlipRed wrote: »
    Your comment about "real" universities just outlines how much credence we can give to your comments. You say you've been teaching for 40 years and yet you have the maturity of one of the pupils you teach.

    I'm not pro Project maths. I'm anti-rote learning. The current LC syllabus and the teachers that teach it are entrenched in this system.
    If you are so against rote learning why do you support Project Maths which involves learning Geometry Theorems off by heart (compulsory for first time on LCHM) and learning lots of definitions of different types of data off by heart ,learning the rules of probability using sets off by heart ,learning the rules for finiancial maths off by heart .
    Check the draft syllabus.
    Rote learning is alive and well in Project maths .
    The bigger issue is the NCCA project maths committee which has lost all creditability as a result of their discredited sample papers .
    see below minister Quinns reply to a parlimentary question.
    NCCA issued mock papers to the 24 Project Schools in February 2011 which were
    intended to supplement sample question material already sent to schools for the
    relevant strands the previous summer, and the sample papers published by the
    State Examinations Commission in October 2010.
    The feedback indicates that the
    questions in the mock papers were more difficult than expected. In response, all of the project schools were notified that it was the sample paper published by the SEC which reflects the standards and type of question likely to arise in the actual examination.
    The SEC no longer agrees that the NCCA should set sample papers.
    It is also interesting to note that the gen Sec of the ASTI did not support project maths on the recent frontline program


  • #110
    LeixlipRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,081 ✭✭✭LeixlipRed


    You're not addressing the issue of rote learning. That is the single biggest crutch to students coming to third level. Any student with a mind open to mathematics can pick up vectors or matrices in the first year of 3rd level. Content is important but the main aim of the syllabus is to eliminate rote learning. It doesn't cater to the most talented students, I admit that. But neither does the current course, it's an awful course, nothing elegant or interesting about the mathematics on it.

    The main issue for me is that teachers are resisting this because they don't want to move out of a comfort zone. A comfort zone of regurgitating the same rubbish year in year out. I know this from experience as I've been involved in working with some second level teachers on the new syllabus. The main issues I've encountered are a lack of mathematical training from the teacher's side (UL survey 2 years ago puts the figure at 50% of maths teachers at second level are unqualified) and fear of having to teach a course that's open ended.

    Rote learning is ruining people's lives at 3rd level. I'm not talking about the best and brightest here. Service maths students at 3rd level are entering university with a huge crutch in the form of rote learning. If we don't take steps to eradicate it then the implications are disastrous. Degrees are already being devalued. Academic standards are slipping. It's rote learning not content that is the main focus for me. We can get the content right over the course of years. The best and brightest students will pick it up at 3rd level. It's the rest of the students that we need to worry about.


  • #111
    LeixlipRed
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,081 ✭✭✭LeixlipRed


    jimkekk wrote: »
    If you are so against rote learning why do you support Project Maths which involves learning Geometry Theorems off by heart (compulsory for first time on LCHM) and learning lots of definitions of different types of data off by heart ,learning the rules of probability using sets off by heart ,learning the rules for finiancial maths off by heart .
    Check the draft syllabus.
    Rote learning is alive and well in Project maths .
    The bigger issue is the NCCA project maths committee which has lost all creditability as a result of their discredited sample papers .
    see below minister Quinns reply to a parlimentary question.
    NCCA issued mock papers to the 24 Project Schools in February 2011 which were
    intended to supplement sample question material already sent to schools for the
    relevant strands the previous summer, and the sample papers published by the
    State Examinations Commission in October 2010.
    The feedback indicates that the
    questions in the mock papers were more difficult than expected. In response, all of the project schools were notified that it was the sample paper published by the SEC which reflects the standards and type of question likely to arise in the actual examination.
    The SEC no longer agrees that the NCCA should set sample papers.
    It is also interesting to note that the gen Sec of the ASTI did not support project maths on the recent frontline program

    Who says these things have to be learned off by heart?? Show me the quote in the syllabus document that says, "students must learn off these rules by heart"? I'm not saying Project Maths is infallible. I just feel that it's going in the right direction with regards to rote learning. Open ended questions and a lack of choice being the two major things for me.

    And the union guy is against it for the reasons I said teachers were against it above. The unqualified ones are crapping themselves, they can't spoof it anymore.


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  • #112
    Brussels Sprout
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,486 ✭✭✭Brussels Sprout


    jimkekk wrote: »
    Stats and probability are not a major part of any first year 3rd level course .......Also most statistical problems at 3rd level involve subbing numbers into computer programs.

    I did a module in Statistics in the first year of my Chemical Engineering degree (it was all theory and lectures too-no computer programs).


  • #113
    ray giraffe
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 338 ✭✭ray giraffe


    LeixlipRed wrote: »
    Hardy har har. Not the point I was trying to make.

    However the point bluewolf was trying to make is that Maynooth has very poor standards.

    Just today I was giving grinds to a girl who is about to do her maths finals in Maynooth (BA). She was amazed to hear about composition of functions "f o g" i.e. "f after g". She had no familiarity with this, I was breaking fresh ground with her as I showed her simple examples.

    She could not identify if a function was injective or surjective, and failed to recognise log(AB) = log(A) + log(B) when I wrote it down.

    What is she going to do in September? H Dip in maths teaching. She is our next generation of maths teachers. :pac:

    My point: Most maths teachers have a weak grasp of maths, having learnt it by rote to a fairly poor standard themselves. Therefore asking them to convey understanding to their students (in project maths) is a tall order.


  • #114
    jimkekk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭jimkekk


    LeixlipRed wrote: »
    You're not addressing the issue of rote learning. That is the single biggest crutch to students coming to third level. Any student with a mind open to mathematics can pick up vectors or matrices in the first year of 3rd level. Content is important but the main aim of the syllabus is to eliminate rote learning. It doesn't cater to the most talented students, I admit that. But neither does the current course, it's an awful course, nothing elegant or interesting about the mathematics on it.

    The main issue for me is that teachers are resisting this because they don't want to move out of a comfort zone. A comfort zone of regurgitating the same rubbish year in year out. I know this from experience as I've been involved in working with some second level teachers on the new syllabus. The main issues I've encountered are a lack of mathematical training from the teacher's side (UL survey 2 years ago puts the figure at 50% of maths teachers at second level are unqualified) and fear of having to teach a course that's open ended.

    Rote learning is ruining people's lives at 3rd level. I'm not talking about the best and brightest here. Service maths students at 3rd level are entering university with a huge crutch in the form of rote learning. If we don't take steps to eradicate it then the implications are disastrous. Degrees are already being devalued. Academic standards are slipping. It's rote learning not content that is the main focus for me. We can get the content right over the course of years. The best and brightest students will pick it up at 3rd level. It's the rest of the students that we need to worry about.
    Rote learning will not get you an A1 A2 or B1 (thank god) the leaving cert H has always had what I would call A1,A2 blockers usually in the most popular questions on Paper 1 .Project maths has probably more rote learning than the old course .
    The old course did not need to be changed to project maths but just to be tweeked .
    By the way the only rote learning bits on LCHM were first principles some proofs and the difference equations.


  • #115
    jimkekk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭jimkekk


    ray giraffe wrote: »
    However the point bluewolf was trying to make is that Maynooth has very poor standards.

    Just today I was giving grinds to a girl who is about to do her maths finals in Maynooth (BA). She was amazed to hear about composition of functions "f o g" i.e. "f after g". She had no familiarity with this, I was breaking fresh ground with her as I showed her simple examples.

    She could not identify if a function was injective or surjective, and failed to recognise log(AB) = log(A) + log(B) when I wrote it down.

    What is she going to do in September? H Dip in maths teaching. She is our next generation of maths teachers. :pac:

    My point: Most maths teachers have a weak grasp of maths, having learnt it by rote to a fairly poor standard themselves. Therefore asking them to convey understanding to their students (in project maths) is a tall order.
    Everything you say is a result of the dumbing down of maths in 2nd level.
    The real major dropping of standards happened in 2003 with the changes to the Junior Cert . All of the following were removed
    (i)Compositions of functions fog etc.
    It can be a a very nice way to explain the chain rule in differentiation students do not understand the concept of a function of a function.
    (ii)Logs including change of base .
    (iii)Quadratic inequalities.
    (iv)Binary Operations
    (v)Symmetric difference in Sets .
    (vi)Area of a triangle in Coordinate geometry .
    (vii)Image of a line by a translation.
    (viii)sum and difference of 2 cubes
    And nothing was added!
    This is why present 3rd level students know nothing .Because they came through a maths syllabus at Junior Cert which is basically 4th class primary standard.
    Injections and surjections were on the Leaving cert Ordinary level in the 1980's!They were never very popular a bit to difficult for Ord students but they were there!
    Project maths will do nothing to improve this! They have removed even more topics from the Junior cert H syllabus .
    Including the area of a triangle and the sine rule.
    If you compare the Project maths syllabus for Junior Cert and the Pre 1990 Junior Cert Syllabus you would be shocked how standards have dropped! Foundation level maths is also being removed.

    Good luck with your student


  • #116
    jimkekk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭jimkekk


    LeixlipRed wrote: »
    Who says these things have to be learned off by heart?? Show me the quote in the syllabus document that says, "students must learn off these rules by heart"? I'm not saying Project Maths is infallible. I just feel that it's going in the right direction with regards to rote learning. Open ended questions and a lack of choice being the two major things for me.

    And the union guy is against it for the reasons I said teachers were against it above. The unqualified ones are crapping themselves, they can't spoof it anymore.

    Leaving cert (h) project maths 3 geometry theorems to be learned off by heart, 10 constructions to be learned off by heart. Must know what all the geometry theorems for Junior Cert say rote learning officially on Leaving Cert for very first time!


  • #117
    Lachlan Sweet Tummy
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Lachlan Sweet Tummy


    LeixlipRed wrote: »
    Hardy har har. Not the point I was trying to make. I was just pointing out that jimkekk was talking through his hole. Statistics and probability theory are essential subjects for any science or social science graduate intending to do research either in postgrad form or in the workplace.

    Erm. I think you took me up wrong, LR...


  • #118
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    jimkekk wrote: »
    Stats and probability are not a major part of any first year 3rd level course neither is Euclidian geometry check your facts .They do feature at 2nd and 3rd year but not in first year as I said wheras algebra/calculus/matrices/vectors do.I rest my case .Also most statistical problems at 3rd level involve subbing numbers into computer programs.

    This paragraph is full of errors. Stats and probability account for one third of my modules in every year of my maths degree. Euclidean geometry is assumed as a prerequisite for Linear Algebra and Calculus courses.
    Lastly, most statistical problems at 3rd level do not use a computer. Computer usage accounts for about 5% of stats module grades in UCD.
    jimkekk wrote: »
    This is why present 3rd level students know nothing.

    Excuse you! I entered third level education two years ago adequately prepared and ready to learn!


    My own thoughts on Project Maths are uncertain. I do have definite opinions on what could have been done better. I think the addition of more Statistics was a bad move because, if the idea is to reduce rote learning and leave the more proficient students to pick the rest up in 3rd level, the statistics should be left until then, since it is taught from scratch again.
    Rather than bolstering the content of the course, why not just have more questions on existing course material, and make it more open ended, as has been done?


  • #119
    jimkekk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭jimkekk


    Deleted User wrote: »
    This paragraph is full of errors. Stats and probability account for one third of my modules in every year of my maths degree. Euclidean geometry is assumed as a prerequisite for Linear Algebra and Calculus courses.
    Lastly, most statistical problems at 3rd level do not use a computer. Computer usage accounts for about 5% of stats module grades in UCD.



    Excuse you! I entered third level education two years ago adequately prepared and ready to learn!


    My own thoughts on Project Maths are uncertain. I do have definite opinions on what could have been done better. I think the addition of more Statistics was a bad move because, if the idea is to reduce rote learning and leave the more proficient students to pick the rest up in 3rd level, the statistics should be left until then, since it is taught from scratch again.
    Rather than bolstering the content of the course, why not just have more questions on existing course material, and make it more open ended, as has been done?
    They may account for every year of your maths degree but for 1st Science,1st commerce etc (not haeding towards pure maths) there is no Euclidian geometry .
    Your point about bolstering up the content in HLC maths is vadid the present couse is fine . But H maths is only 8500 students there are 35,000 doing ordinary level and they now will have to answer compulsory questions on geometry and business maths which were options on the old course .The questions are so wordy that many Ord level students will have great difficulties


  • #120
    Fremen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,481 ✭✭✭Fremen


    jimkekk wrote: »
    Also most statistical problems at 3rd level involve subbing numbers into computer programs.

    So profoundly wrong.


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  • #121
    Fremen
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,481 ✭✭✭Fremen


    I think the reason Euclidean geometry is taught in schools is that it's the best way to introduce students to the concept of "proof". The subject has an ample supply of non-obvious results that can be proved using fairly straightforward constructions.

    There's only so much you can do with classical Euclidean geometry, which is probably why it isn't taught directly at university level. The language just isn't powerful or general enough. However, concepts introduced in geometry such as orthogonality are invaluable later on and are subsumed into vector calculus.

    I still routinely use concepts I learned in secondary school geometry - I still have to draw a triangle if I want to know what sin(pi/3) is, for example.


  • #122
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    jimkekk wrote: »
    They may account for every year of your maths degree but for 1st Science,1st commerce etc (not haeding towards pure maths) there is no Euclidian geometry .
    1st science in UCD and 1st commerce in UCD have to do stats and maths modules. They have some choice but almost all will end up doing calculus and will therefore use facts of geometry. That or stats which was another thing you asserted they wouldn't have to do.
    The questions are so wordy that many Ord level students will have great difficulties
    It sounds to me like we need Project English to the rescue.


  • #123
    jimkekk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭jimkekk


    Deleted User wrote: »
    1st science in UCD and 1st commerce in UCD have to do stats and maths modules. They have some choice but almost all will end up doing calculus and will therefore use facts of geometry. That or stats which was another thing you asserted they wouldn't have to do.


    It sounds to me like we need Project English to the rescue.
    It is strange that the only people who welcome project maths is people in 3rd level .The 37,000 Ord level students who are forced to do project Maths will never study maths a third level


  • #124
    PaulieBoy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 534 ✭✭✭PaulieBoy


    LeixlipRed wrote: »
    You say you've been teaching for 40 years and yet you have the maturity of one of the pupils you teach.
    I put it to you that you're talking crap.
    I thought abusing/insulting behavior was against forums rules ???


  • #125
    jimkekk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭jimkekk


    PaulieBoy wrote: »
    I thought abusing/insulting behavior was against forums rules ???
    As usual the last refuge of someone with no substance to their argument is abuse !
    As I said the project maths committee in the NCCA are not competant and are out of touch with reality .
    The Dept of Ed and SEC have instructed the Pilot schools to disregard the mock papers produced by this committee as "they were too difficult " and did not represent what would be asked in the exam in June!
    In the real world a committe that had received this judgement from their boss would resign .
    But the NCCA(project maths) is not in the real world and they will continue to waste taxpapers money on substandard inservice course and mock papers!


  • #126
    PurpleVintage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 199 ✭✭PurpleVintage


    Well, unlike most of you, i've no constructive or intellectual comments to contribute, as i'm merely one of the scapegoats who was FORCED into doing a completely DIFFERENT course, and who is surely about to fail her maths, and have to waste a year of her life.

    I'm gutted my school is past of the 24 schools taking on the P.M and i'm disgusted with the fact that a half-arsed half-complete course is being forced on us. It's all very well, for some of you to be talking about how simple PM is and how it's an advantage for the current students FORCED into taking it, but from the looks of it, the majority of you in favor of it are way past your Leaving Cert years, so wth would you know about how we feel? I'm one of those 'cliche' students, if you'd like to call it that, that simply cant stand Maths. I have no interest for it, I have no patience for it, I see no reason in learning half of the things on the course. I was in Ordinary Level, and had a hope of passing it, despite my serious case of procrastinating and bad memory, but now? Now i'm sure i'm gonna fail Foundation. And why is THAT? Because of Project Maths. I was under the impression ONLY Paper 2 would be Project Maths, so I went and learned off the chapters that I needed for Paper 1 off by heart and now? Now it's good for nothing. When I ask any teacher for advice, and what the difference in the syllabus between Foundation and Ordinary is, they aren't ABLE to answer me. As a matter of fact, most say 'it's the exact same thing as ordinary, just phrased differently! The questions are identical! The numbers in the answe4r are just smaller." when I tell them i'm going to fail unless someone tells me what to study and what the differences are, they LAUGH and tell me "Ah, sure you wont pet, you'll be grand on the day of the leaving". Well THANK YOU for the wise words.
    I asked my teacher on monday after I found out Paper 1 is P.M as well, what to study and he told me to study both books. You know what that is? It's 700 pages. What about my other subjects? Hell, nvm that.. what about the FACT that 700 pages isnt doable in 7 days? That's 100 pages per day, add or take a few dozen.
    We were given a list of the chapters we should study, followed by a 'but anything in the book can come up, cause we simply do NOT know'. Well that's great. So what about set questions? You know, those questions that were always GUARANTEED they would come up? Oh that's right... nobody knows about that either! So I ask you this... WHAT IS THE POINT OF IMPLEMENTING SOMETHING IF YOU CANNOT GIVE YOUR STUDENTS THE SUPPORT THEY NEED?

    I see people focusing on HL students and students that are WAYY able to get a C2 MINIMUM in their OL Exam. But what about us? What about the people who are just weak at math? Is getting us to pass our Maths not important? The students they focus on are the students that WILL pass... they simply want them to pass with high Bs and As... but what about the ones failing? Is it more important to get a student to pass with an A2 than a student to pass with a D3?

    3 people passed the OL Maths Mock Paper in my class.THREE. 3 out of 27? 28? Now I understand that it's our own fault we procrastinate but this is beyond that. It's lack of support, lack of attention, and downright lack of resources available to help their students.

    So I hear the NCCA Sample Papers are a joke? I guess I just wasted a few hours answering the few questions that I felt I could get some attempt marks at. Funnily enough, my Maths teacher is still using those sample papers to teach the class.

    You know what the worst thing is? Some bits of the PM actually seem to rely on common sense, and seem easy. Yet after 4 years of being taught a certain syllabus, and doing Math in a specific way, I just CANT adapt to that way of thinking... especially not in 7 days.

    So cheers to whoever decided to screw up a year of our lives. I cant get over the fact they decided to take a gamble with OUR future. OURS. As if maths was worth more than us passing the damn LC. I just hope and pray that I can find ACTUAL notes on the internet that will help, since I know I wont be getting help from anywhere else. Shameful.


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  • #127
    Eliot Rosewater
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭Eliot Rosewater


    PurpleVintage wrote: »
    Well, unlike most of you, i've no constructive or intellectual comments to contribute, as i'm merely one of the scapegoats who was FORCED into doing a completely DIFFERENT course, and who is surely about to fail her maths, and have to waste a year of her life.

    If I understand you correctly, your problem is firstly, that you changed into Project Maths after some time in the normal LC Maths course and so are thrown off, and secondly that you haven't done enough work and so are having trouble.

    In fairness, the second isn't a fault of Project Maths, rather the unfortunate result of you assuming you only had to study half the course, and the first sounds ambiguous. Could you expand upon how long you've been doing Project Maths?
    PurpleVintage wrote: »
    I see people focusing on HL students and students that are WAYY able to get a C2 MINIMUM in their OL Exam. But what about us? What about the people who are just weak at math? Is getting us to pass our Maths not important? The students they focus on are the students that WILL pass... they simply want them to pass with high Bs and As... but what about the ones failing? Is it more important to get a student to pass with an A2 than a student to pass with a D3?

    It's equally important. The purpose of the maths course should be to bring out and build upon the potential of students in the best way possible. If your doing badly because of bad teachers (and it does sound like bad teachers, if I'm reading you right?) then the system is failing you. If one of your friends is getting an A1 in Honours without hardly trying then the system is failing them, too. In both cases the potential of the students is not being used.


  • #128
    jimkekk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭jimkekk


    PurpleVintage wrote: »
    Well, unlike most of you, i've no constructive or intellectual comments to contribute, as i'm merely one of the scapegoats who was FORCED into doing a completely DIFFERENT course, and who is surely about to fail her maths, and have to waste a year of her life.

    I'm gutted my school is past of the 24 schools taking on the P.M and i'm disgusted with the fact that a half-arsed half-complete course is being forced on us. It's all very well, for some of you to be talking about how simple PM is and how it's an advantage for the current students FORCED into taking it, but from the looks of it, the majority of you in favor of it are way past your Leaving Cert years, so wth would you know about how we feel? I'm one of those 'cliche' students, if you'd like to call it that, that simply cant stand Maths. I have no interest for it, I have no patience for it, I see no reason in learning half of the things on the course. I was in Ordinary Level, and had a hope of passing it, despite my serious case of procrastinating and bad memory, but now? Now i'm sure i'm gonna fail Foundation. And why is THAT? Because of Project Maths. I was under the impression ONLY Paper 2 would be Project Maths, so I went and learned off the chapters that I needed for Paper 1 off by heart and now? Now it's good for nothing. When I ask any teacher for advice, and what the difference in the syllabus between Foundation and Ordinary is, they aren't ABLE to answer me. As a matter of fact, most say 'it's the exact same thing as ordinary, just phrased differently! The questions are identical! The numbers in the answe4r are just smaller." when I tell them i'm going to fail unless someone tells me what to study and what the differences are, they LAUGH and tell me "Ah, sure you wont pet, you'll be grand on the day of the leaving". Well THANK YOU for the wise words.
    I asked my teacher on monday after I found out Paper 1 is P.M as well, what to study and he told me to study both books. You know what that is? It's 700 pages. What about my other subjects? Hell, nvm that.. what about the FACT that 700 pages isnt doable in 7 days? That's 100 pages per day, add or take a few dozen.
    We were given a list of the chapters we should study, followed by a 'but anything in the book can come up, cause we simply do NOT know'. Well that's great. So what about set questions? You know, those questions that were always GUARANTEED they would come up? Oh that's right... nobody knows about that either! So I ask you this... WHAT IS THE POINT OF IMPLEMENTING SOMETHING IF YOU CANNOT GIVE YOUR STUDENTS THE SUPPORT THEY NEED?

    I see people focusing on HL students and students that are WAYY able to get a C2 MINIMUM in their OL Exam. But what about us? What about the people who are just weak at math? Is getting us to pass our Maths not important? The students they focus on are the students that WILL pass... they simply want them to pass with high Bs and As... but what about the ones failing? Is it more important to get a student to pass with an A2 than a student to pass with a D3?

    3 people passed the OL Maths Mock Paper in my class.THREE. 3 out of 27? 28? Now I understand that it's our own fault we procrastinate but this is beyond that. It's lack of support, lack of attention, and downright lack of resources available to help their students.

    So I hear the NCCA Sample Papers are a joke? I guess I just wasted a few hours answering the few questions that I felt I could get some attempt marks at. Funnily enough, my Maths teacher is still using those sample papers to teach the class.

    You know what the worst thing is? Some bits of the PM actually seem to rely on common sense, and seem easy. Yet after 4 years of being taught a certain syllabus, and doing Math in a specific way, I just CANT adapt to that way of thinking... especially not in 7 days.

    So cheers to whoever decided to screw up a year of our lives. I cant get over the fact they decided to take a gamble with OUR future. OURS. As if maths was worth more than us passing the damn LC. I just hope and pray that I can find ACTUAL notes on the internet that will help, since I know I wont be getting help from anywhere else. Shameful.
    It is shameful that you are so distressed so near to the exam .yes everybody is talking about the higher maths students (about 400 students) in the pilot schools and people are forgetting that there is 1600 students doing Ord maths.That have one sample paper 1 and about 4 sample paper 2 of which 2 are the discredited NCCA papers .
    Ignore all the pious platitudes of the pro project maths lobby they are either people who have never taught maths or are in some ivory tower in 3rd level .
    If its ok with you I will send you over a way to survive the LC project maths .


  • #129
    jimkekk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭jimkekk


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    If I understand you correctly, your problem is firstly, that you changed into Project Maths after some time in the normal LC Maths course and so are thrown off, and secondly that you haven't done enough work and so are having trouble.

    In fairness, the second isn't a fault of Project Maths, rather the unfortunate result of you assuming you only had to study half the course, and the first sounds ambiguous. Could you expand upon how long you've been doing Project Maths?



    It's equally important. The purpose of the maths course should be to bring out and build upon the potential of students in the best way possible. If your doing badly because of bad teachers (and it does sound like bad teachers, if I'm reading you right?) then the system is failing you. If one of your friends is getting an A1 in Honours without hardly trying then the system is failing them, too. In both cases the potential of the students is not being used.
    Project maths will fail! Reason the same teachers who could not teach maths when they had a fully developed syllabus, 17 years of past papers excellent text books and lots of resources are now supposed to do better with a draft incomplete syllabus, one actual past paper and no text books and lots of useless information from the NCCA .
    It could only happen in Ireland and nobody will be held responsible !


  • #130
    Lachlan Sweet Tummy
    Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Lachlan Sweet Tummy


    PurpleVintage wrote: »
    I was in Ordinary Level, and had a hope of passing it, despite my serious case of procrastinating and bad memory, but now? Now i'm sure i'm gonna fail Foundation. And why is THAT? Because of Project Maths.
    Eh?


  • #131
    Permabear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 39,022 ✭✭✭✭Permabear


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #132
    jimkekk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭jimkekk


    Permabear wrote: »
    This post had been deleted.
    Project maths insists that maths must be relevant Ordinary level students could not care less they just want to pass and forget maths forever .
    maths does not have to be revelent it can just be pure .You don't have to measure a tree to study Trig!


  • #133
    jimkekk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭jimkekk


    Eliot Rosewater wrote: »
    If I understand you correctly, your problem is firstly, that you changed into Project Maths after some time in the normal LC Maths course and so are thrown off, and secondly that you haven't done enough work and so are having trouble.

    In fairness, the second isn't a fault of Project Maths, rather the unfortunate result of you assuming you only had to study half the course, and the first sounds ambiguous. Could you expand upon how long you've been doing Project Maths?



    It's equally important. The purpose of the maths course should be to bring out and build upon the potential of students in the best way possible. If your doing badly because of bad teachers (and it does sound like bad teachers, if I'm reading you right?) then the system is failing you. If one of your friends is getting an A1 in Honours without hardly trying then the system is failing them, too. In both cases the potential of the students is not being used.
    Project will not exist in 3 years time the Minister already wants to abondon it


  • #134
    Podge_irl
    Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 27,285 Mod ✭✭✭✭Podge_irl


    For all the talk of Project Maths doing away with rote learning (and I don't for a second think it does anyway), there is the point to be made that being proficient at maths does in fact involve learning and remembering a large quantity of material and being able to perform similar calculations on a fairly regular basis.


  • #135
    TommyDoyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭TommyDoyle


    Guys would anyone know
    (a) where i could get a good christmas tree?
    (b) where i can get a correct definition of the Empirical Rule? (preferably from someone who can spell!!!!)
    It's time the dinosaurs left the maths classrooms of Ireland- don't criticise what you don't understand!:)


  • #136
    jimkekk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭jimkekk


    The Dinosaurs will never leave the classroom .It is the only place they are safe . Therefore there will be no improvement in maths because the fault is not in the Syllabus( the old syllabus was fine just needed a few small changes) nor in the students but in the genius at the front of the room who in most cases has no qualification to teach maths!
    countdown to 806 maths next thursday and friday for maths advice


  • #137
    TommyDoyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭TommyDoyle


    Hope he covers the Empirical Rule!!!! Maybe a plug for the Christmas trees too:) More of the usual nonsense I'd say!! At least we are spared the awful spelling on the radio!!!!!!!!


  • #138
    jimkekk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭jimkekk


    Maths advice on Countdown 806 last night was excellent .I have texted the link to the podcast to my LC class .
    I have told them to listen again on thurs and Friday of next week.
    If only all teachers could communicate like this .
    Tip
    If you are feeling stressed I believe aroma therapy works really well. so the guy on 2fm said last night .
    Why are you looking for a Christmas tree in June ?


  • #139
    PurpleVintage
    Closed Accounts Posts: 199 ✭✭PurpleVintage


    @ Eliot Rosewater
    Well of course the procrastinating part is my fault. I have never, nor would I ever imply otherwise. The fact is, I was more than able to pass Ordinary Level, even if it was with a D, and that went down to a high chance at failing Foundation. To the point where i'm being told to just take Ordinary since "You're better off failing at Ordinary than at Foundation anyway". Great.
    I can't speak for all teachers or all students when I say this... my Maths teacher is a very nice guy, but the way he teaches is just not doing it for me, and at LEAST 75% of the class. Out of the people I regularly talk to in the class, and ever asked if they think he's a good Maths teacher, only one ever said yes. Goes to show i'm not just nitpicking here. As I said before, 3 passed the mocks. That ALSO goes to show that it's not just procrastinating that's having an impact on the results, as many of the people who failed are very studious, and pretty average at maths.

    @ bluewolf
    Not sure if you deliberately missed the point, or if i'm speaking Gibberish, but what I was hoping that sentence meant was: Even though I suffer from extremely bad memory, and procrastinate a lot, I still knew I could pass Ordinary, or at least get a very high grade in Foundation. Now, with Project Maths... I don't think i'm even able to pass the Foundation.

    @ Permabear
    As I said before, I am very weak at Maths. But not weak enough to fail my normal Foundation Maths. Since I went from a good-chance of passing Ordinary to huge-chance of failing Foundation, I think that speaks volumes on its own.
    And yes, I know that project Maths was apparently supposed to be all that... but it FAILED, and failed BADLY from the looks of the Mock results of my year group. It's all very nice to be changing around things, and trying to make it more user-friendly (or so they say) but not in our last year of school. ESPECIALLY not if they dont even have the resources available to support their students! Why didnt they simply change it for 1st years, and leave all other year groups with normal maths? That way nobody would be sacrificed imho.
    Thanks for the encouraging words! It's kinda nice to know that at least someone thinks that I still have a chance at passing.

    @ jimkekk
    Thank you very much for the support, your previous posts helped me realize a lot of things about Project Maths, and if it weren't for you (I believe it was you who said it first) I would still be studying my NCCA sample papers.
    Well, I really dont like bothering people, and normally I would say no... but i'm so scared and desperate right now that any help whatsoever is extremely appreciated. :)


  • #140
    TommyDoyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭TommyDoyle


    Jim,
    Just read most of your posts! Interesting! Have to disagree with you re J Brennan though- heard the podcast then looked at the notes on 2fm website and they are riddled with errors. Also, saw him on the frontline tv show and thought he was appalling- a dinosaur in the classroom, exactly what we need rid of!! Sorry about the rant!


  • #141
    TommyDoyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭TommyDoyle


    Anybody be able to help me with outliers??


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  • #142
    jimkekk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭jimkekk


    TommyDoyle wrote: »
    Jim,
    Just read most of your posts! Interesting! Have to disagree with you re J Brennan though- heard the podcast then looked at the notes on 2fm website and they are riddled with errors. Also, saw him on the frontline tv show and thought he was appalling- a dinosaur in the classroom, exactly what we need rid of!! Sorry about the rant!
    I have to disagree with you the notes were fantastic no errors that I coluld see you obviously have a problem with JB .The quick way to do the standard deviation is brilliant and the advice on the delta x method for the product rule is fantastic my students love this
    Did you know that hundreds of students attend his grind classes every week he is obviously doing something right .
    what are you doing? How many students do you have ?
    It really is a bad idea to personalise your views this guy is a legend .
    He has helped thousands of students what have you done ?
    Chill out try the aroma therapy !


  • #143
    jimkekk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭jimkekk


    PurpleVintage wrote: »
    @ Eliot Rosewater
    Well of course the procrastinating part is my fault. I have never, nor would I ever imply otherwise. The fact is, I was more than able to pass Ordinary Level, even if it was with a D, and that went down to a high chance at failing Foundation. To the point where i'm being told to just take Ordinary since "You're better off failing at Ordinary than at Foundation anyway". Great.
    I can't speak for all teachers or all students when I say this... my Maths teacher is a very nice guy, but the way he teaches is just not doing it for me, and at LEAST 75% of the class. Out of the people I regularly talk to in the class, and ever asked if they think he's a good Maths teacher, only one ever said yes. Goes to show i'm not just nitpicking here. As I said before, 3 passed the mocks. That ALSO goes to show that it's not just procrastinating that's having an impact on the results, as many of the people who failed are very studious, and pretty average at maths.

    @ bluewolf
    Not sure if you deliberately missed the point, or if i'm speaking Gibberish, but what I was hoping that sentence meant was: Even though I suffer from extremely bad memory, and procrastinate a lot, I still knew I could pass Ordinary, or at least get a very high grade in Foundation. Now, with Project Maths... I don't think i'm even able to pass the Foundation.

    @ Permabear
    As I said before, I am very weak at Maths. But not weak enough to fail my normal Foundation Maths. Since I went from a good-chance of passing Ordinary to huge-chance of failing Foundation, I think that speaks volumes on its own.
    And yes, I know that project Maths was apparently supposed to be all that... but it FAILED, and failed BADLY from the looks of the Mock results of my year group. It's all very nice to be changing around things, and trying to make it more user-friendly (or so they say) but not in our last year of school. ESPECIALLY not if they dont even have the resources available to support their students! Why didnt they simply change it for 1st years, and leave all other year groups with normal maths? That way nobody would be sacrificed imho.
    Thanks for the encouraging words! It's kinda nice to know that at least someone thinks that I still have a chance at passing.

    @ jimkekk
    Thank you very much for the support, your previous posts helped me realize a lot of things about Project Maths, and if it weren't for you (I believe it was you who said it first) I would still be studying my NCCA sample papers.
    Well, I really dont like bothering people, and normally I would say no... but i'm so scared and desperate right now that any help whatsoever is extremely appreciated. :)
    Hi
    I will have good advice on PM over the weekend can send as a PDF if required.


  • #144
    Michael Collins
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 1,851 Mod ✭✭✭✭Michael Collins


    jimkekk wrote: »
    ...It really is a bad idea to personalise your views this guy is a legend .
    He has helped thousands of students what have you done ?

    Just out of curiosity: do you know, or are you yourself, John Brennan?


  • #145
    jimkekk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭jimkekk


    Michael Collins wrote: »
    Just out of curiosity: do you know, or are you yourself, John Brennan?
    I was a student of JB in the 80's . I now work at 3rd level but do a lot of leaving cert grinds .
    Jonnie B is a legend in our class we had 6 students who did acturial studies . I can remember the results of our class 12 A1 ,6 A2 .Nobody got a B or a C . That was the real LC (1988) .
    He has helped so many students .If he says PM is not a good idea ,it's not a good idea !
    I won't have a bad word said about Jonnie B he was my teacher for 5 years so do not call him a dinosaur!


  • #146
    TommyDoyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭TommyDoyle


    Jim,
    Like Michael Collins I'm starting to have my doubts about your posts too!!
    Having read your posts, you are starting to resemble something of an outlier!!!!!! Here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055768798&page=7 you say you have been teaching maths for over 40 years but here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056283967 you say your sister did her Leaving Cert in 2010!!!!! Does mean there is approx 44 years between you and your sister? Definitely more than 3 standard deviations from the mean wouldn’t you agree???!!!! Can we believe anything you have been saying?


  • #147
    TommyDoyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭TommyDoyle


    "I do not like to give tips but first principals (his spelling!!!!!!) seems to be popular with the examiners the ones that have not been asked so far are y = Cosx , sqrt(x)......."

    Just a sample of the notes on the 2fm website that you say have "no errors" even though these came up in 2004 and 2001 respectively. It's just totally irresponsible and lazy to trot these same notes out to students year after year. The best is his definition of the Empirical Rule though, every time I read it I cringe. God help the "hundreds" of students if this is what they're getting! Legend indeed.


  • #148
    jimkekk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭jimkekk


    TommyDoyle wrote: »
    Jim,
    Like Michael Collins I'm starting to have my doubts about your posts too!!
    Having read your posts, you are starting to resemble something of an outlier!!!!!! Here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055768798&page=7 you say you have been teaching maths for over 40 years but here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056283967 you say your sister did her Leaving Cert in 2010!!!!! Does mean there is approx 44 years between you and your sister? Definitely more than 3 standard deviations from the mean wouldn’t you agree???!!!! Can we believe anything you have been saying?

    My sister did do her Leaving cert maths last year at the the age of 56 as a mature student !


  • #149
    jimkekk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭jimkekk


    TommyDoyle wrote: »
    "I do not like to give tips but first principals (his spelling!!!!!!) seems to be popular with the examiners the ones that have not been asked so far are y = Cosx , sqrt(x)......."

    Just a sample of the notes on the 2fm website that you say have "no errors" even though these came up in 2004 and 2001 respectively. It's just totally irresponsible and lazy to trot these same notes out to students year after year. The best is his definition of the Empirical Rule though, every time I read it I cringe. God help the "hundreds" of students if this is what they're getting! Legend indeed.
    He is still a legend what have you done ?


  • #150
    jimkekk
    Closed Accounts Posts: 49 ✭jimkekk


    jimkekk wrote: »
    He is still a legend what have you done ?

    This thread is getting very personal and I think it is better for everybody (including me) to move on. At the moment it is the students that are important and nothing should be said or written that will upset them in any way.


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  • #151
    TommyDoyle
    Closed Accounts Posts: 12 ✭TommyDoyle


    Now, I fully agree with Michael Collins!! Would the real JB please stand up!!!! Pathetic to read all the posts knowing this. Don't think it counts if you're the one calling yourself a "legend".;)


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