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NBP: National Broadband Plan Announced

13567…201

Comments

  • #102
    KOR101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,898 ✭✭✭KOR101


    Tommy Lagahan wrote: »
    Its funny because this is exactly what happened to my fixed wireless 5GHz connection. After 5-6 years of Three 3G torture I swapped to fixed wireless and it was fantastic, 9ms ping 10Mbit all of the time. So being the idiot I was I told the rest of the family stuck on 3G about it. Then they told their neighbors, and so on.

    Now I get 20% packet loss most of the day and 0.4Mbit at peak times.
    Contention is a horrible evil thing.

    As a bitter taste of irony, all the people who switched took some of the stress off of the 3G mast, so now I swap back and forth based on the contention and pay 60 quid a month for 2 services.
    Yeah. My neighbour invited me in so I could see what good internet she has from a fixed wireless provider. I ran a speed test, and she was getting about 2.5 mbits. She may as well have invited in the devil (if only she knew).


  • #103
    Tommy Lagahan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭Tommy Lagahan


    mass_debater wrote: »
    How far are your fixed wireless provider going to get decent backhaul?

    As the crow flies from my mast to their base station in Derry its 33.4 miles using Google earth to measure. I'm 2.7 miles from the mast.
    They're a small company with crap customer support and likely wouldn't even take up a fiber connection to the mast anyway, they don't care about connections in the south because they get paid by the government to do last mile broadband in the north. Wouldn't be surprised if we get less priority so they meet their contract.


  • #104
    KOR101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,898 ✭✭✭KOR101


    You might wonder whether, when practicality and cost are factored in, that we may end up with a NBP not so unlike out neighbour.

    https://www.gov.uk/broadband-delivery-uk

    The Government is investing over £1 billion in improving broadband and mobile infrastructure to:
    • Provide superfast broadband coverage to 90% of the UK by 2016
    • Provide basic broadband (2Mbps) for all by 2016
    • Provide superfast broadband to 95% of the UK by 2017
    • Explore options to get near universal superfast broadband coverage across the UK by 2018
    • Create 22 ‘SuperConnected Cities’ across the UK by 2015
    • Improve mobile coverage in remote areas by 2016
    Superfast Broadband Programme

    The ambition is to provide superfast broadband (speeds of 24Mbps or more) for at least 95% of UK premises and universal access to basic broadband (speeds of at least 2Mbps).
    Government funding is stimulating private sector investment in broadband to ensure that the benefits are available to all.
    The programme is being delivered in three phases:
    • Phase 1 aims to provide superfast broadband to 90% of premises in the UK
    • Phase 2 will seek to further extend coverage to 95% of the UK
    • Phase 3 will test options to rollout superfast broadband beyond 95%
    https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/state-aid-advice

    Encouragingly,

    BT has been accused by MPs of "vastly overestimating" the cost of providing broadband to rural areas. It follows a National Audit Office (NAO) report, which revealed that the rollout will cost at least £92m less than BT had originally said.


    Bringing faster services to remote areas has proved to be highly controversial.
    Questions have been raised about the time it has taken the government to start the rollout and whether the plans are ambitious enough.
    Last year the Public Accounts Committee accused the government of mismanaging the project, and said BT released "wildly inaccurate" estimates of costs.
    Mrs Hodge said at the time: "The taxpayer has been ripped off, with £1.2bn going to the shareholders of BT."
    Ultra-fast broadband BT's status as the only operator providing rural broadband could actually be one of the reasons for costs being cut, said Andrew Ferguson, editor of the ThinkBroadband news site.
    "It is interesting that a chunk of the savings are down to the fact that only one supplier won all the contracts, increasing the economies of scale, at the expense of competition," he said.
    Mike Kiely, a former adviser to BDUK, has long argued that BT's estimates of the cost of distributing broadband to rural areas were far too high.
    He felt vindicated by the findings, saying: "Thirty-eight per cent excess costs have been confirmed in the cost models used to calculate the milestone payments. Those monies - and there will be more - need to be used to extend the fibre rollout further."
    He and others argue that BT should think about offering even faster broadband - by taking so-called "fibre-to-the-premise" technology, which offers significantly higher speeds than BT's preferred technology of "fibre-to-the-cabinet".

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-31043548


  • #105
    Johnboy1951
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,031 ✭✭✭✭Johnboy1951


    Provide superfast broadband coverage to 90% of the UK by 2016
    Provide basic broadband (2Mbps) for all by 2016

    Superfast is 24Mb/s ....... hehehehehehe

    2Mb/s is basic broadband? ...... :mad:

    This was first published in 2013 ...... quite a lot has happened since then in technology ....


  • #106
    dalta5billion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭dalta5billion


    I know it's been posted before, but the B4RN project in the UK is really astonishing.

    Basically farmers have dug the ducts for fibre cables across their lands themselves, and they get 1Gbps symmetrical for 30£ a month. And this is none of your GPON stuff, it's PtP fibre, so upgradeable as the need arises (dedicated circuits are available for businesses). They then hire dark fibre to connect to the wider internet.

    The business plan is particularly inspiring.
    http://b4rn.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/B4RN-Business-Plan-v5-2.pdf

    Could we do this in rural Ireland? The guy behind it seems to have been particularly good at convincing locals and organising the whole project, and planning the network (lots of redundancy) . Their YouTube channel is also great, I think I've watched every video.


  • #107
    KOR101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,898 ✭✭✭KOR101


    dalta5billion wrote: »
    I know it's been posted before, but the B4RN project in the UK is really astonishing.

    Basically farmers have dug the ducts for fibre cables across their lands themselves, and they get 1Gbps symmetrical for 30£ a month. And this is none of your GPON stuff, it's PtP fibre, so upgradeable as the need arises (dedicated circuits are available for businesses). They then hire dark fibre to connect to the wider internet.

    The business plan is particularly inspiring.
    http://b4rn.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/B4RN-Business-Plan-v5-2.pdf

    Could we do this in rural Ireland? The guy behind it seems to have been particularly good at convincing locals and organising the whole project, and planning the network (lots of redundancy) . Their YouTube channel is also great, I think I've watched every video.
    Addictive viewing.....

    https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCu_VPTlFv9kuLqI25JX4GTQ/videos


  • #108
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,997 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    dalta5billion wrote: »
    I know it's been posted before, but the B4RN project in the UK is really astonishing.

    Basically farmers have dug the ducts for fibre cables across their lands themselves, and they get 1Gbps symmetrical for 30£ a month. And this is none of your GPON stuff, it's PtP fibre, so upgradeable as the need arises (dedicated circuits are available for businesses). They then hire dark fibre to connect to the wider internet.

    The business plan is particularly inspiring.
    http://b4rn.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/11/B4RN-Business-Plan-v5-2.pdf

    Could we do this in rural Ireland? The guy behind it seems to have been particularly good at convincing locals and organising the whole project, and planning the network (lots of redundancy) . Their YouTube channel is also great, I think I've watched every video.

    I think the dynamics of laying cable here would be very different. Per property you would have a greater distances between hub and site due to our larger level of ribbon development. With a far far greater amount of properties to negotiate laying cable in because farms here are smaller and dispersed. But its more then possible.

    I see they get a grant of 300 per connection, anything like that here?


  • #109
    nilhg
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,160 ✭✭✭nilhg


    Some interesting tweets by Adrian Weckler this morning,


    "Eircom CEO Moat also says that Eircom's Nat BB tender will be based on fibre to the home, not the cabinet. Even to remote rural homes."

    "Nat Broadband Plan will cost "substantially" less than originally thought, says new Eircom boss. So will cost taxpayer way less than €500m"

    "So it's starting to look more likely that state-subsidised rural fibre broadband to 700,000 homes/businesses will really happen. (By 2020.)"


  • #110
    Nolars
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,894 ✭✭✭Nolars


    http://www.independent.ie/business/richard-moat-the-fibre-diet-will-get-eircom-moving-again-30964828.html
    'Cheaper' rural broadband plan in the pipeline

    Eircom is preparing to bid for the Government's upcoming National Broadband tender, a contract that could see it win hundreds of millions in public money to roll out fibre broadband to 700,000 rural homes and businesses.

    "We're ready to go, we're ready to submit a proposal and we intend to win," says Eircom's chief executive Richard Moat.

    The plan requires a minimum speed of 30 megabits per second (Mbs) to every premises, regardless of how remotely it is located.

    But how much will it cost? The Government has previously said it would spend up to €500m subsidising the scheme. But Mr Moat says that the final overall cost might be a lot less than the €1bn on which the Government's initial €500m subsidy estimates was based.

    An outlay of "€1bn would definitely be more than enough", he says. "I don't want to give away our commercial position on this, but I would say that it would be well under a billion.

    "The cost of [fibre broadband] equipment is coming down. And our know-how on how to use existing assets is improving. The combination of those two means that the cost of rolling out rural fibre broadband is substantially less than either we or the market originally thought."

    But would this be real fibre to the home and business or just a phone-line connected service? There is a big difference between fibre piped into someone's home and fibre that connects a local phone cabinet (which means much more limited speed, similar to Eircom's existing 'eFibre' product). Does Eircom see a rural fibre broadband plan physically delivering fibre into every single premises or simply to the local phone cabinets?

    "We have a detailed plan for this and it is based on fibre to the home," says Mr Moat.

    "You might think that given our huge experience bringing fibre to the cabinet that that is what we'd be recommending. But having looked at it in detail, we actually think that fibre to the home is a more sensible solution. Because we're talking about rural ribbon developments here. Putting cabinets in won't really work as it's not the same as more concentrated communities. Individual homes would be too far from the cabinet. So it's got to be fibre to the home. We've concluded that it's cheaper and easier and more logical to run fibre along the road and along the poles we already have."

    If Eircom won the tender, would it want to own the state-subsidised network built or see it remain in state hands but licensed on a rolling basis?

    "We would far prefer to own the asset," says Mr Moat. "And I would have thought that the Government doesn't really want to get into owning networks. Of course, they will want to know that proper regulation and competition is occurring. But I'm working on the assumption that the operator will own the assets." Eircom is confident that the National Broadband Plan will proceed - even though is yet to be financially provisioned for by the Government and which must yet overcome EU state aid rules?

    "There might be some scepticism but as far as Eircom is concerned, we think it is going to happen. The Government appear to have assembled a very powerful team behind it. So we've put a big team behind it, led by Carolan Lennon, which is devoted to winning the National Broadband Plan.

    "We were probably the biggest contributor to the Government's mapping exercise too, which is a building block for it to go ahead. So as far as we're concerned, it's happening."

    Indo Business


  • #111
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,979 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    All awesome stuff coming from Eircoms CEO here!

    I have to say I've been increasingly impressed with the new Eircom over the last two years and their fast and effective rollout of VDSL. From this article it really looks like Eircom have turned over a new leaf.

    Of course I remain wary of Eircom! But I'm hoping they prove me wrong.

    I'm delighted to see that Eircom also believes FTTH is the only solution for rural broadband and even better they think it can be done cheaper then previously thought! :D

    I think they are correct about removing the old copper network and replacing it with Fibre. Obviously Fibre is far faster, but it is also more robust with cheaper maintenance costs. Also copper cable can be melted down and sold to the materials market, helping to pay for the new Fibre.

    However I can see issues with this plan and objections to it. The other telecos operating their own LLU services over copper will likely object and it will be an issue for services that use copper (Sky Multiroom, Security Alarm monitoring, Credit/Debit card machines, fax machines, etc.).

    Certainly not insurmountable issues, but they will certainly not be easy to deal with.

    While I understand why Eircom would rather own this rural network. I'd much prefer to see the government own it if they are paying for half of it.

    Obviously I would expect other operators to also be given access to this network. Preferably I'd like to see them use multi-wavelength fibre, where each company would be given their own optical wavelength on the fiber, so they have more control and can develop their own unique products and not be simple Eircom resellers.


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  • #112
    Tommy Lagahan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭Tommy Lagahan


    Oh god please don't get me hyped like this :P


  • #113
    MajesticDonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,213 ✭✭✭MajesticDonkey


    This is unbelievably exciting, and I'm actually quite optimistic about it. Five years isn't long though!


  • #114
    MBSnr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭MBSnr


    MajesticDonkey wrote: »
    This is unbelievably exciting, and I'm actually quite optimistic about it. Five years isn't long though!

    Fibre to my rural house in five years... Sounds great, sounds magical, sounds like a Stalin Five Year Plan. If it doesn't happen in five years we'll make another grand five year plan....

    Ohh I'm tooo sceptical... :D


  • #115
    Cuddlesworth
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,997 ✭✭✭✭Cuddlesworth


    bk wrote: »
    Of course I remain wary of Eircom! But I'm hoping they prove me wrong.

    I'm delighted to see that Eircom also believes FTTH is the only solution for rural broadband and even better they think it can be done cheaper then previously thought! :D

    Sounds like Eircom have been taking a leaf from Irish construction companies in regards government tenders tbh.

    1 - Underbid on contract.
    2 - Complete circa 25% to 50% of project.
    3 - Cry pauper and put the hand out, claiming unforeseen circumstances(which other bidders foresaw)


  • #116
    Gonzo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,959 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    this sounds great but with the FTTC eFibre rollout going on till at least 2016, they won't start this till at least early 2017 and aim to have everyone wired up by late 2020 and it's a 5 year plan? They will still be wiring people up in 2025


  • #117
    skydish79
    Registered Users Posts: 843 ✭✭✭skydish79


    Who would you BK prefer to win the contract , Eircom or ESB?


  • #118
    KOR101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,898 ✭✭✭KOR101


    MajesticDonkey wrote: »
    This is unbelievably exciting, and I'm actually quite optimistic about it. Five years isn't long though!
    Yes, if he's saying it's going to be cheaper than the government thought, and if the exchequer figures continue anything like the January ones, there is really no reason for a contract for this not to be signed before the election. And, Eircom HAVE delivered on FTTC.


  • #119
    MajesticDonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,213 ✭✭✭MajesticDonkey


    KOR101 wrote: »
    And, Eircom HAVE delivered on FTTC.
    And in fairness are continuing to deliver with all the eFibre rollouts they're doing.


  • #120
    ED E
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,169 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Gonzo wrote: »
    this sounds great but with the FTTC eFibre rollout going on till at least 2016, they won't start this till at least early 2017 and aim to have everyone wired up by late 2020 and it's a 5 year plan? They will still be wiring people up in 2025

    They can run simultaneously. Like the FTTH theyve been running for 2yrs in parallel to the VDSL rollout to date. Eircoms own crews could focus on pushing out fibre runs while KNN keep doing the VDSL stuff. Or add more KNN. Plenty of jobseekers in the nation.
    MajesticDonkey wrote: »
    And in fairness are continuing to deliver with all the eFibre rollouts they're doing.

    Im waiting for eVDSL to get the go ahead, that'll double the pace for the subsequent few quarters as its far less time consuming to do.


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  • #121
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,979 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    skydish79 wrote: »
    Who would you BK prefer to win the contract , Eircom or ESB?

    Oh, good question, it is a difficult one.

    On the one hand I'm really impressed by the ESB. They are a profitable company that is unlike Eircom is very much focused on long term infrastructural investment. Just look at the excellent quality of their rural electricity network (and the shambles that Eircoms rural network is) and their investment in Electric car charging points.

    All very positive.

    I also think they have a better rural infrastructure to build on then Eircom.

    The downside is that they are really new to the residential broadband market and thus unproven.

    Also I'm weary of Vodafones involvement with them, I really don't like Vodafones deceptive marketing of their VDSL products as unlimited (really a 300GB cap). Vodafone really aren't doing themselves any favours in this regard.

    On the other hand, I've hated Eircom as a company for a long time as I believe they completely held back the Irish broadband market for almost 15 years and milked it for everything it was worth.

    Having said that, they really seem to have turned over a new leaf in the past two years. I'm very impressed with their speedy rollout of VDSL. So I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt, though still VERY weary of them returning to their old ways.

    The positives for Eircom is they have lots of experience with operating and selling residential broadband and I've no doubt will be able to also operate a FTTH network well.

    They also have the most extensive fiber network in Ireland, thus well placed to rollout FTTH from this network.

    So as you see it is a really hard question.

    My gut tells me I'd prefer the ESB, but I honestly wonder if that is just my distrust of Eircom.

    Of course these aren't the only two options. Two other options are possible:

    1) Both ESB and Eircom win contracts for different areas.
    2) The network is owned by the government (some sort of semi state) and they contract both ESB and Eircom to build different parts of the network.

    The latter option would be my preference, given that unlike urban areas where you will have the option of at least two networks (Eircom + UPC or ESB) and thus network level competition. Rural will be a natural monopoly and I'm not sure I trust any private company with such a natural monopoly.


  • #122
    Zack Morris
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 137 ✭✭Zack Morris


    We've jumped up to the 37th fastest country in the world: http://www.netindex.com/download/allcountries/

    Only 2Mb behind the UK.


  • #123
    rob808
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,319 ✭✭✭rob808


    Wow I hope this true love to have FTTH that be amazing way better than mobile or adsl let hope government give it to eircom or at least esb.


  • #124
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,979 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Zack Morris wrote: »
    We've jumped up to the 37th fastest country in the world: http://www.netindex.com/download/allcountries/

    Only 2Mb behind the UK.

    Yes, we have been powering up this chart over the last two years as people switch to UPC and VDSL high speed broadband.

    In the next year, with the continued rollout and take up of VDSL and the rollout of FTTH by ESB and Eircom, I expect us to overtake the UK, Spain and Germany, maybe even the US!


  • #125
    Hackery
    Closed Accounts Posts: 72 ✭✭Hackery


    bk wrote: »
    Yes, we have been powering up this chart over the last two years as people switch to UPC and VDSL high speed broadband.

    In the next year, with the continued rollout and take up of VDSL and the rollout of FTTH by ESB and Eircom, I expect us to overtake the UK, Spain and Germany, maybe even the US!

    Considering our low density population and ribbon development that is a huge achievement.


  • #126
    ED E
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,169 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    Hopefully we get some parallel plans for additional transit like "Arctic Fibre", with all that downstream potential we're gonna need a lot of peering to the server farms on the continent.


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  • #127
    rob808
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,319 ✭✭✭rob808


    Let say Eircom win it and does FTTH to the 700,000 rural homes and businesses.I would see wireless and satellite operators trying to block it because it would take all there business.


  • #128
    MajesticDonkey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,213 ✭✭✭MajesticDonkey


    rob808 wrote: »
    Let say Eircom win it and does FTTH to the 700,000 rural homes and businesses.I would see wireless and satellite operators trying to block it because it would take all there business.

    No doubt, but it's inevitable that wireless and satellite will be a thing of the past in years to come.


  • #129
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,979 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    rob808 wrote: »
    Let say Eircom win it and does FTTH to the 700,000 rural homes and businesses.I would see wireless and satellite operators trying to block it because it would take all there business.

    You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs!

    Did we worry about the buggy whip industry when the car was invented? Nope and we shouldn't let these companies stand in the way of people in rural Ireland finally getting high quality broadband.


  • #130
    dalta5billion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭dalta5billion


    I'm more worried about how a subsidised Eircom rural FTTH rollout would be regulated.
    If they charge operators on a usage basis like they did with "Bitstream" it'll be totally handicapped.


  • #131
    Tommy Lagahan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭Tommy Lagahan


    rob808 wrote: »
    Let say Eircom win it and does FTTH to the 700,000 rural homes and businesses.I would see wireless and satellite operators trying to block it because it would take all there business.
    MajesticDonkey wrote: »
    No doubt, but it's inevitable that wireless and satellite will be a thing of the past in years to come.

    The sooner the better, I wanna get this junk off my window lol!

    YGpCRGf.png


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  • #132
    MBSnr
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,191 ✭✭✭MBSnr


    bk wrote: »
    .
    My gut tells me I'd prefer the ESB, but I honestly wonder if that is just my distrust of Eircom.
    .
    .

    In all of my personal and business dealings with Eircom they have been nothing short of inept and a disaster of a company. Our business account manager couldn't give a toss, he moved on but didn't have the courtesy to tell us. We now have no account manager and have been left hanging - not an issue until the last few days when we had problems with billing. Getting hold of anyone who knows anything is incredibly hard - no it's impossible. Auto out of office replies with no contact details. Pushed to the automated phone menu system every time..........

    Seems it still runs as a state company with no internal comms and everyone doing their blinked roles. The dept. manager isn't answering emails, picking up the phone or replying to VMs. So unprofessional it hurts. Ironically it appears the younger lower down employees are very helpful but cannot resolve our issues and the higher up employees who can authorise and help fix things are un-contactable by customers.

    ESB for me. I've had less interaction with them but they just strike me as a more professional company. I mean compare the electricity infrastructure with the telephone. On land around us, ESB networks have worked on overhead wiring and it was always done quickly, professionally and with minimal mess. They tend to respond the same day and give advance notice of requiring access to the land. With electricity you can't bodge and get away with it.

    Eircom on the other hand replaced the pole outside our house. In my front garden was part of a tree they chopped down, large metal plates, 12 inch bolts & nuts plus other assorted debris and scrap metal left over from the job.... Real pros.


  • #133
    Jakey Rolling
    Registered Users Posts: 944 ✭✭✭Jakey Rolling


    rob808 wrote: »
    Let say Eircom win it and does FTTH to the 700,000 rural homes and businesses.I would see wireless and satellite operators trying to block it because it would take all there business.

    As I said earlier in the thread, some people are likely to be left with no service for a while during the rollout of fibre.

    Wireless ISPs will likely have to shut down when they lose so many customers that they are making a loss - that leaves the remaining customers with no service other than maybe 3G or satellite until they are hooked up to fibre.

    Some sort of transition plan to ensure this doesn't happen would be welcome.

    100412.2526@compuserve.com



  • #134
    KOR101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,898 ✭✭✭KOR101


    Jakey Rolling wrote: »
    As I said earlier in the thread, some people are likely to be left with no service for a while during the rollout of fibre.

    Wireless ISPs will likely have to shut down when they lose so many customers that they are making a loss - that leaves the remaining customers with no service other than maybe 3G or satellite until they are hooked up to fibre.

    Some sort of transition plan to ensure this doesn't happen would be welcome.
    My personal transition plan is to make great use of the local town (10km away) that has FTTC and therefore incredible free wifi. And closer to home, to simply drive (literally 50m) to a spot where I can get 3G with, admittedly, poor speeds.


  • #135
    tsue921i8wljb3
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,017 ✭✭✭tsue921i8wljb3


    Jakey Rolling wrote: »
    As I said earlier in the thread, some people are likely to be left with no service for a while during the rollout of fibre.

    Wireless ISPs will likely have to shut down when they lose so many customers that they are making a loss - that leaves the remaining customers with no service other than maybe 3G or satellite until they are hooked up to fibre.

    Some sort of transition plan to ensure this doesn't happen would be welcome.

    If the WISPs are proactive they could transition to become fibre resellers. I see that Net1 who are predominantly a WISP based in the North East are already reselling VDSL.


  • #136
    rob808
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,319 ✭✭✭rob808


    Siena Gigantic Backyard wrote: »
    If the WISPs are proactive they could transition to become fibre resellers. I see that Net1 who are predominantly a WISP based in the North East are already reselling VDSL.
    yea I see that happening make sense they just resell it as FTTH products.I would see Eircom tripe play come into action as well Tv,broadband,mobile and it mostly like work better than vdsl because of the speed that FTTH offers.


  • #137
    Gonzo
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 16,959 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gonzo


    Ive never liked Eircom, they held us back for 15 years and broadband/internet outside of our towns is still a one way trip to the mid 1990s. Most people outside of town boundary's are stuck on less than 8meg, with many still dialing up to the sound of their 56k modems.

    But, at this stage if Eircom are the one's who will finally offer a plan to provide FTTH across the nation within the next 5 years, I will gladly support them. It's FTTH or nothing imo, time to build a network for the nation. No wireless crap or half measures.


  • #138
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    bk wrote: »
    Yes, we have been powering up this chart over the last two years as people switch to UPC and VDSL high speed broadband.

    In the next year, with the continued rollout and take up of VDSL and the rollout of FTTH by ESB and Eircom, I expect us to overtake the UK, Spain and Germany, maybe even the US!
    I've been watching the relationship between Germany and Ireland on that index for a while. Ireland was in 42nd place on the 5th of December and Germany was in 32nd place. Now Ireland is a whisker away from Germany and in 37th place and Germany is still (standing still!) in 32nd place.


  • #139
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    MBSnr wrote: »
    In all of my personal and business dealings with Eircom they have been nothing short of inept and a disaster of a company. Our business account manager couldn't give a toss, he moved on but didn't have the courtesy to tell us. We now have no account manager and have been left hanging - not an issue until the last few days when we had problems with billing. Getting hold of anyone who knows anything is incredibly hard - no it's impossible. Auto out of office replies with no contact details. Pushed to the automated phone menu system every time..........

    Seems it still runs as a state company with no internal comms and everyone doing their blinked roles. The dept. manager isn't answering emails, picking up the phone or replying to VMs. So unprofessional it hurts. Ironically it appears the younger lower down employees are very helpful but cannot resolve our issues and the higher up employees who can authorise and help fix things are un-contactable by customers.

    ESB for me. I've had less interaction with them but they just strike me as a more professional company. I mean compare the electricity infrastructure with the telephone. On land around us, ESB networks have worked on overhead wiring and it was always done quickly, professionally and with minimal mess. They tend to respond the same day and give advance notice of requiring access to the land. With electricity you can't bodge and get away with it.

    Eircom on the other hand replaced the pole outside our house. In my front garden was part of a tree they chopped down, large metal plates, 12 inch bolts & nuts plus other assorted debris and scrap metal left over from the job.... Real pros.
    It would be a nice long term objective for the countryside to use the existing electricity infrastructure for FTTH and gradually to remove the falling apart telephone poles that blight the place. 50% fewer cables and poles would be a nice indirect benefit of retiring copper for telecoms purposes!


  • #140
    rob808
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,319 ✭✭✭rob808


    Eircom has 500m set aside for there FTTH and LTE Advanced that they use for hard to reach areas such as mountain and islands.If they win the contract I wonder what BT Ireland and ESB and Vodafone plans would be and how much they would put to it and what they use.let hope it just one bidder wins it and not multiple bidders that be a disaster.


  • #141
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,979 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    rob808 wrote: »
    Eircom has 500m set aside for there FTTH and LTE Advanced that they use for hard to reach areas such as mountain and islands.If they win the contract I wonder what BT Ireland and ESB and Vodafone plans would be and how much they would put to it and what they use.let hope it just one bidder wins it and not multiple bidders that be a disaster.

    Again, that isn't true!

    Eircom has said that they are willing to bid on the NBP and therefore invest in it. But they certainly don't have 500million "set aside" for rural areas, that is pure fantasy!

    If Eircom wins the NBP bid, then they will raise the funds for their part of the investment via loans.

    If ESB/Vodafone win the contract then they would do the same. In fact they are financially in a far better position to do this then Eircom.

    Eircom is in debt to the tune of 2.5 Billion after burning their bond holders to the tune of 2.5 Billion as part of their debt restricting. This makes it extremely hard to borrow new capital and they have to pay a premium when they do.

    Vodafone on the other hand, doesn't even need to borrow, they have 24 Billion in cash after their sold their share in Verizon for 100 Billion!

    Likewise, the ESB made a profit of €415 million in 2013 (2014 results not available yet), so again they could pay that out of cash if they wanted.


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  • #142
    rob808
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,319 ✭✭✭rob808


    bk wrote: »
    Again, that isn't true!

    Eircom has said that they are willing to bid on the NBP and therefore invest in it. But they certainly don't have 500million "set aside" for rural areas, that is pure fantasy!

    If Eircom wins the NBP bid, then they will raise the funds for their part of the investment via loans.

    If ESB/Vodafone win the contract then they would do the same. In fact they are financially in a far better position to do this then Eircom.

    Eircom is in debt to the tune of 2.5 Billion after burning their bond holders to the tune of 2.5 Billion as part of their debt restricting. This makes it extremely hard to borrow new capital and they have to pay a premium when they do.

    Vodafone on the other hand, doesn't even need to borrow, they have 24 Billion in cash after their sold their share in Verizon for 100 Billion!

    Likewise, the ESB made a profit of €415 million in 2013 (2014 results not available yet), so again they could pay that out of cash if they wanted.
    My bad didn't know that guess we wait and see my worry is if Vodafone migth try push that mobile wireless stuff for NBP to save money if they win because doubt they want spend there profits.


  • #143
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,979 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    rob808 wrote: »
    My bad didn't know that guess we wait and see my worry is if Vodafone migth try push that mobile wireless stuff for NBP to save money if they win because doubt they want spend there profits.

    First of all, it might not be the joint venture of ESB + Vodafone who bids, it could be just the ESB.

    Secondly in Vodafones submission to the NBP, even they said that FTTH is pretty much the only option.


  • #144
    KOR101
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,898 ✭✭✭KOR101


    I posted on the relative borrowing rates of Eircom and the ESB in December.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=93344833&postcount=1161

    Since then, the ESB's 10 year bond yield has fallen by about 0.5% (to 1.19%), whereas Eircom's yield has risen (to 7.41%).

    http://www.boerse-frankfurt.de/en/search/result?order_by=wm_vbfw.name&name_isin_wkn=ESB+FINANCE

    http://www.boerse-frankfurt.de/en/search/result?order_by=wm_vbfw.name&name_isin_wkn=Eircom

    Just to illustrate the difference this makes. Let's say you tried to put a value on 50 years of revenues of €500 per house. If you take those rates as the 50 year borrowing rate, and assume 1% inflation over that period, in financial terms, the present value (PV) would be...

    ESB €23,827
    Eircom €7,451

    Don't hammer me on the assumptions. I do know how to do this for real. The point is to illustrate the difference the borrowing rates make to the investment case both companies face. The ESB should be hands down winners in the bidding.


  • #145
    dalta5billion
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,034 ✭✭✭dalta5billion


    KOR101 wrote: »
    Don't hammer me on the assumptions. I do know how to do this for real. The point is to illustrate the difference the borrowing rates make to the investment case both companies face. The ESB should be hands down winners in the bidding.

    Is DCENR required to take such things into account by any chance? Given that there's a clear risk factor in giving a contract to a company that's been in and out of financial trouble so many times.


  • #146
    mass_debater
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,072 ✭✭✭mass_debater


    dalta5billion wrote: »
    Is DCENR required to take such things into account by any chance? Given that there's a clear risk factor in giving a contract to a company that's been in and out of financial trouble so many times.

    They have a huge habit of making the wrong choices and listening to bad advice


  • #147
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,979 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    dalta5billion wrote: »
    Is DCENR required to take such things into account by any chance? Given that there's a clear risk factor in giving a contract to a company that's been in and out of financial trouble so many times.

    Well the financials should be reflected in the bidding rates.

    Putting it in extremely simple terms, lets say a FTTH install costs €1,000 [1]

    That means the total cost for the ESB over 10 years [2] is €1,060.84

    While the total cost for Eircom is €1,403.82 !!!!!

    They have no choice but to factor in the cost of interest on the capital loans when bidding on the contract. And you can see there is a massive difference in cost between Eircom and the ESB

    One thing that Eircom has in it's advantage is that it already has a deep fibre network with FTTC, which might reduce it's costs slightly. On the other hand the ESB's overhead network is in much better shape, Eircom might have to replace lots of it's rural telephone poles, etc. So that might balance that advantage out.

    However it is hard to see how the ESB couldn't under bid them and also be prefereable in the governments eyes as they are a semi state and it would thus keep the new FTTH network our government ownership. Prefereable for all of us.

    [1] €1,000 is about the cost for an urban install, rural would be much more expensive.

    [2] Realistically they would probably look to finance it over a longer period, 20 years, etc.


  • #148
    rob808
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,319 ✭✭✭rob808


    Well esb have about 1,300km fibre optics cables in Ireland were as Eircom has 12,000km of fibre optic cables.I think by going by that don't know how Esb could do it better Than Eircom.


  • #149
    ED E
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 36,169 ✭✭✭✭ED E


    rob808 wrote: »
    Well esb have about 1,300km fibre optics cables in Ireland were as Eircom has 12,000km of fibre optic cables.I think by going by that don't know how Esb could do it better Than Eircom.

    Eircoms pole infrastructure is knackered though, and the ESB have a very robust deployment with which to run an access network on. And they have a core fibre ring around pretty much the entire coast. Both sides have their advantages, but one side is broke .


  • #150
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,979 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    rob808 wrote: »
    Well esb have about 1,300km fibre optics cables in Ireland were as Eircom has 12,000km of fibre optic cables.I think by going by that don't know how Esb could do it better Than Eircom.

    That is true, but the vast majority of that fiber is in urban areas. Eircom have run little in the way of Fiber to rural exchanges. They are normally connected over microwave links.

    So while they might have a small edge here, it isn't as much as it might first seem, they will both likely have to run the same amount of fiber for rural FTTH.

    This advantage comes more into play when the ESB is rolling out FTTH in urban areas, it would be easier for Eircom to rollout a competing FTTH network from their FTTC cabs.


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  • #151
    bk
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Technology & Internet Moderators Posts: 22,979 Mod ✭✭✭✭bk


    Eircom Wholesale has posted a new video about the NBP and their rural FTTH plans:

    http://vimeo.com/118729129

    Very interesting. What it most exciting about all this is that they seem to be really pushing FTTH as the only solution and that is such good news for rural Ireland.


This discussion has been closed.
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