Dog attack question

TooManyDogs · 25-11-2011 8:33pm

It could be that 3 dogs is simply not enough to form a pack.

I find it interesting that any of the dog trainers/behaviourists who completely debunk pack theory mostly have never had more than 2 or 3 dogs at a time, while the trainers/behaviourists who believe some sort of pack theory exists have more than 4 dogs.

I have a number of friends who have between 5 and 9 dogs, they all can see a ranking within their dogs. It is there, it could be there needs to be a critical number of dogs to see it and in a normal house people only have 1 or 3 dogs, it is quite unusual to have large numbers of dogs.

westies4ever · 25-11-2011 8:48pm

callmekenneth wrote: »

an aggressive westie (and most of them seem to be) isnt a problem because they're only wee,

generalising much?? my two are both sweethearts as is every other one i've met bar one.

i wouldnt tar any breed like that.

boodlesdoodles · 25-11-2011 8:52pm

I have a Westie, he's not aggressive but I put that down to him being trained. Yes, he barks at other dogs but he's an awful wuss! I wish people wouldn't generalise with breeds of dog. There's no such thing as a bad dog, just bad owners.

westies4ever · 25-11-2011 8:56pm

yeah mine are noisy if anyone approaches the house but out on a walk they are very well behaved and friendly.

my female was attacked a few years back by a dog bordeux - i got bitten myself in the attack - it was horrible and made us very nervous for a while. i carry a blackthorn when we're out but havent had to use it.

Discodog · 25-11-2011 9:27pm

TooManyDogs wrote: »

It could be that 3 dogs is simply not enough to form a pack.

I find it interesting that any of the dog trainers/behaviourists who completely debunk pack theory mostly have never had more than 2 or 3 dogs at a time, while the trainers/behaviourists who believe some sort of pack theory exists have more than 4 dogs.

I have a number of friends who have between 5 and 9 dogs, they all can see a ranking within their dogs. It is there, it could be there needs to be a critical number of dogs to see it and in a normal house people only have 1 or 3 dogs, it is quite unusual to have large numbers of dogs.

Oh I would definitely expect the behaviour to be different with more than the average two or three & I could easily imagine some pack behaviour in larger groups. Logic dictates that each dog is going to get less "owner" time in a large group so competition, jealousy etc. may become a factor.

My concern with all of these dog studies is that are so many variables. Every home is different, every owner is different & every dog is different. So if there were a "pack behaviour" threshold it would be very variable.

Discodog · 25-11-2011 9:33pm

callmekenneth wrote: »

kerry blues are known to be aggressive

callmekenneth wrote: »

breed does matter to be fair. american pit bulls are bred to be aggressive, doesnt make them all aggressive and a lot to be said for nature vs nurture but if you have a nervous dog it's pups'll be nervous too. an aggressive westie (and most of them seem to be) isnt a problem because they're only wee, you get an aggressive rottie and you'll know all about it

Is there any breed that you don't think is aggressive ?

Cherry Blossom · 25-11-2011 9:48pm

westies4ever wrote: »

generalising much?? my two are both sweethearts as is every other one i've met bar one.

i wouldnt tar any breed like that.

Funny this, I keep being told by all sorts of people that mine is the only good natured, well socialised Westie they have met and I often wonder if they have actually ever met any at all given that I often make a point of approaching and entering into conversations with other Westie owners and I've never met one that appeared any different in personality or behaviour to mine either! Either us Westie owners must be all delusional or there are a lot of people spouting stereotypical hyperbole on more than just bull breeds. I'm inclined to think it's the latter myself. How either came into being the focus point of a thread about (specific) kerry blues that have a history of aggression is beyond me though - as is all the 'statistical' nonsense about 'muscle' dogs - I fail to see what this has to do with anything.

Back on the topic of the thread, I would be one of the first people to ensure no harm came to my own dog in such a situation although I'd be inclined to use no more force than was absolutely necessary. In the case of the OP it seems to me that the action he took was perfectly warranted and in the case of the second person I would consider the action taken against this dog to be extremely excessive given the individual circumstances. This is my own judgement though and appreciate that other people may not be as confidant in a situation like that and what would seem excessive to me might be seen as necessary by the next person.

andreac wrote: »

Btw a Westie can still do a lot of damage if it was to attack someone.

After a year and a half's worth of constant chewing on an old shoe mine still hasn't managed to make as much as a dent in the shoe so I doubt very much that a 6 kilo dog with less jaw pressure than a flat bottle of coke would be capable of much damage at all.

Ronnie Beck · 25-11-2011 9:50pm

But they have evolved totally differently & in any event Wolf behaviour has been totally misunderstood.

As far as i'm aware all dogs have been been artificially selected from the gray wolf. Many traits of the wolves have been retained because they are usefull such as the hunting instinct in herding and gun dogs and the aggressive defence of a territory in guard dogs.

A Wolf pack works by cooperation & mutual respect, not pack leaders & dominance. Take a look at the amazing work done by Shaun Ellis. The only time that a Wolf pack exhibits real aggression is when the pack itself is threatened. Aggression within a pack is stifled because an injured pack member damages the security of the pack as a whole.

Thanks for the links.

Domestic dogs do not "pack" in anything like the same way.

I never said anything about a pack. I only have two dogs. I didn't mean alpha as an old school sergeant major type just that your dog follows your lead and behaves as you do in social situations. You are showing your dog how to deal with your neighbours dog by example I presume?

westies4ever · 25-11-2011 9:54pm

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

Funny this, I keep being told by all sorts of people that mine is the only good natured, well socialised Westie they have met and I often wonder if they have actually ever met any at all given that I often make a point of approaching and entering into conversations with other Westie owners and I've never met one that appeared any different in personality or behaviour to mine either! Either us Westie owners must be all delusional or there are a lot of people spouting stereotypical hyperbole on more than just bull breeds. I'm inclined to think it's the latter myself.

my last post on this as i appreciate we're drifting off thread - but totally agreed! i hear it so often when people meet me 'ooh a westie - they're very crabby wee dogs arent they - but yours seem nice'. my vet also says that mine are the only friendly westies he has on his client list - mine are teddy bears and if met with a aggression from a person or other dog they run a mile!

on another note - i know plenty of fabulous staffies/owners and a particularly sweet pitbull/owner who meet most days on my walks.

as for OP - if i'd had a hurley the day mine was attacked - i'd have used it in a heartbeat.

Discodog · 25-11-2011 9:55pm

Ronnie Beck wrote: »

As far as i'm aware all dogs have been been artificially selected from the gray wolf.

I never said anything about a pack. I only have two dogs. I didn't mean alpha as an old school sergeant major type just that your dog follows your lead and behaves as you do in social situations. You are showing your dog how to deal with your neighbours dog by example I presume?

I believe that the Wolf selected us & not the other way round. I wouldn't say that my dogs behave as I do socially - they are better behaved than me

Discodog · 25-11-2011 9:58pm

westies4ever wrote: »

my last post on this as i appreciate we're drifting off thread - but totally agreed! i hear it so often when people meet me 'ooh a westie - they're very crabby wee dogs arent they - but yours seem nice'. my vet also says that mine are the only friendly westies he has on his client list - mine are teddy bears and if met with a aggression from a person or other dog they run a mile!

as for OP - if i'd had a hurley the day mine was attacked - i'd have used it in a heartbeat.

My three meet two Westies quite often. If their owner is walking them they get defensive - if their neighbour is walking them they get on fine with my three

DBB · 25-11-2011 10:29pm

FOr me, this article by David Ryan, Chairman of the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors (APBC) sums up the dominance misapprehensions quite nicely. It's too long to post here, but well worth a careful and considered read:
http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die

Here's another nice article from the Dog Welfare Campaign:
http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php

Having read the latter one, you might want to go on to read this:
http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/if-not-dominance.php

When you're finished reading the latter two, have a read of this one:
http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/status-reduction-programmes.php

Finally for now, an article by Ian Dunbar on the subject:
http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/misconceptions-mythical-alpha-dog

I hope these go some way to explaining to people what it's all about, why dominance is an oft-misinterpreted term, and the explanations for behaviours which have been traditionally been explained using the dominance excuse.
Happy reading!

Ronnie Beck · 25-11-2011 11:23pm

DBB wrote: »

FOr me, this article by David Ryan, Chairman of the Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors (APBC) sums up the dominance misapprehensions quite nicely. It's too long to post here, but well worth a careful and considered read:
http://www.apbc.org.uk/articles/why-wont-dominance-die

Here's another nice article from the Dog Welfare Campaign:
http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/why-not-dominance.php

Having read the latter one, you might want to go on to read this:
http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/if-not-dominance.php

When you're finished reading the latter two, have a read of this one:
http://www.dogwelfarecampaign.org/status-reduction-programmes.php

Finally for now, an article by Ian Dunbar on the subject:
http://www.dogstardaily.com/training/misconceptions-mythical-alpha-dog

I hope these go some way to explaining to people what it's all about, why dominance is an oft-misinterpreted term, and the explanations for behaviours which have been traditionally been explained using the dominance excuse.
Happy reading!

Good stuff there dbb.

I was at a friend of a friends house before and their dog took a leak on the carpet. The guy there clipped the dog across the nose and threw it out the back went on about it trying to mark his territory a show his dominance but sure it was just a pup that needed to piss. It was only about twelve weeks old. There is alot of misinformation out there.

john t · 26-11-2011 1:06am

unbelievable the op was asking advice on what too do if dog attacked , and last 15 or so posts talk about wolves, dominance, alpha, which bear no remote insight too original post.... too many `experts` get lost in their blinkered opinion and cant get their point acroos in one post..

Ronnie Beck · 26-11-2011 1:52am

john t wrote: »

unbelievable the op was asking advice on what too do if dog attacked , and last 15 or so posts talk about wolves, dominance, alpha, which bear no remote insight too original post.... too many `experts` get lost in their blinkered opinion and cant get their point acroos in one post..

It is relevant. If people were better educated in dogs behavior and training there would be less incidents of dogs attacking other dogs.

Discodog · 26-11-2011 2:10am

john t wrote: »

unbelievable the op was asking advice on what too do if dog attacked , and last 15 or so posts talk about wolves, dominance, alpha, which bear no remote insight too original post.... too many `experts` get lost in their blinkered opinion and cant get their point acroos in one post..

It's totally relevant. People expect simple easy answers & don't realise that everything in animal behaviour happens for a reason. Rather than "blinkered opinion" I see a lot of people who are willing to give up their time to try & explain the reasons why certain behaviours occur. These reasons are also highly relevant to what you should do if an attack happens.

Your advice was to stick your hands into the middle of a dogfight. You might think that relevant whereas I see it as insane. But if you found the last 15 posts irrelevant then don't read them - even if they might explain why you shouldn't try to grab fighting dogs.

Cherry Blossom · 26-11-2011 2:10am

Ronnie Beck wrote: »

It is relevant. If people were better educated in dogs behavior and training there would be less incidents of dogs attacking other dogs.

The OPs dog did not attack anyone, so none of this is relevant to this thread.

Mod Post : If anyone wants to have a discussion on packs and dominance theory feel free to do so, just don't high-jack inappropriate threads for the purpose.

Discodog · 26-11-2011 2:13am

adrenalinjunkie wrote: »

The OPs dog did not attack anyone, so none of this is relevant to the this thread.

Mod Post : If anyone wants to have a discussion on packs and dominance theory feel free to do so, just don't high-jack inappropriate threads for the purpose.

It's totally relevant because the OP dogs was attacked - what's the difference ?

Cherry Blossom · 26-11-2011 2:19am

Here's a reminder of the OP's query, any more posts are to be directly relevant to it.

Snake Pliisken wrote: »

. . . Insert description of events and history of dogs here . . .

Was I right to protect my dog? I've been told that Kerry Blues are supposed to be muzzled when out in public, any truth in that?

john t · 26-11-2011 2:32am

in my post i said use your hands not kick or use weapon.. you wait for a moment when you can straddle aggressive dog and use your hands too suppreess its anger... never said jump in with hands..... op dog was attacked so easy too walk around stradddle angry dog amnd restrain...i mean dog lovers dont kick dogs...bad owners have our dog pounds full not bad dogs....when i say experts with blinkers i mean dog lovers without open mind too other peoples situation who love their dog... but yes i can and have held 2 angry dogs apart ....

Discodog · 26-11-2011 2:35am

I would happily respond to your post but it would be against the Moderators direction.

john t · 26-11-2011 2:52am

im not weak so go for it...

Cú Giobach · 26-11-2011 10:23am

Snake Pliisken wrote: »

Was I right to protect my dog?

That is up to you and your morals, but if one of my dogs were to be attacked, I would do whatever is in my power to protect them, they are family and instinct would take over, also, the more aggression we would be faced with, the more aggression would be used, no question whatsoever.
Only once have I ever been in the situation where things got very badly out of hand, cycling with one of my dogs last summer we passed a farmhouse with about 7/8 dogs, they all ran at us, I jumped off the bike and put it between my dog and the pack. As dogs do, they came in at all angles and the "top" dog went straight for mine (no warning or sizing up), rapidly followed by about 4 others.
I went straight into "fight" mode without thinking, and with an almighty roar joined the fray, without going into details I showed the "pack" we weren't going to be a pushover and they eventually backed off.
In such a situation there is no time for thinking or rationalisation you just do what has to be done, we are all animals and all animals will instinctively fight to protect themselves their family or their pack when backed into a corner.

Dog attack question

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