Would you be upset if your family or best friend vote No to marriage referendum

Vojera · 14-05-2015 8:14pm

Spanish Max wrote: »

That sounds conflicted tbh. You're saying you'll defend and accept someone voting no but won't respect them?

He said he wouldn't respect their opinion, not that he wouldn't respect the person.

Everyone has the right to an opinion, but no one has the right to have that opinion go unchallenged, especially if it's based on factually incorrect information.

floggg · 15-05-2015 12:17am

Spanish Max wrote: »

That sounds conflicted tbh. You're saying you'll defend and accept someone voting no but won't respect them?

There is nothing conflicted about it. It's a referendum - people are free to vote how they wish and it's not in my gift to tell them how to vote.

But it is in my gift to reassess my opinions based on how they vote. If they exercise a vote to deny equality for any group, then they are not the type of person I can respect.

floggg · 15-05-2015 12:19am

Vojera wrote: »

He said he wouldn't respect their opinion, not that he wouldn't respect the person.

Everyone has the right to an opinion, but no one has the right to have that opinion go unchallenged, especially if it's based on factually incorrect information.

I most likely wouldn't respect the person either. A person earns respect through their actions and deeds, and a vote against equaloty (for any group) is not an act or deed worthy of respect.

I still respect that they have a choice in any election or referendum though.

feargale · 15-05-2015 12:23am

Can I turn the question around? Would your best friend or a member of your family be upset by your voting yes? Would they resolve to have no more to do with you? How would you feel or react if they did?

Spanish Max · 15-05-2015 12:23am

Vojera wrote: »

He said he wouldn't respect their opinion, not that he wouldn't respect the person.

Everyone has the right to an opinion, but no one has the right to have that opinion go unchallenged, especially if it's based on factually incorrect information.

No that's not correct. He wouldn't respect the person for their opinion.

pl4ichjgy17zwd · 15-05-2015 12:28am

feargale wrote: »

Can I turn the question around? Would your best friend or a member of your family be upset by your voting yes? Would they resolve to have no more to do with you? How would you feel or react if they did?

If my best friend or family member were upset at me voting yes and cut contact, I would appreciate them doing it before I did. If you don't believe in my equality, I have no interest in maintaining a relationship with you. And they definitely weren't as good a best friend or close a family member as I thought.

dubscottie · 15-05-2015 12:39am

They only family I have now are my mums side. (both parents died years ago).

My brother does not care, as my aunties, uncles and some of my cousins all know, but we have a "don't ask, don't tell" thing going on..

They are religious to a point (Protestant as I was till I worked out it is bollox)

Think one of my aunties will vote no, but she will still love me the same.. (I hope)..

Maximus Alexander · 15-05-2015 12:44am

Fortunately, I appear to have chosen my friends well. They're all vocal yes advocates.

pl4ichjgy17zwd · 15-05-2015 12:45am

dubscottie wrote: »

Think one of my aunties will vote no, but she will still love me the same.. (I hope)..

I hope she will too, and you're a better person than me that you can not take it to heart.

shamrock55 · 15-05-2015 12:49am

Not in the slightest, everyone has the right to vote what they want, i personally couldnt give a ****e what way this referendum goes anyway tbh

ha!! I never even copped what thread this was in

rainbow kirby · 15-05-2015 12:50am

feargale wrote: »

Can I turn the question around? Would your best friend or a member of your family be upset by your voting yes? Would they resolve to have no more to do with you? How would you feel or react if they did?

Honestly - no. My dad was the main person I thought would vote no, but he's more of an economic conservative than a social one and I've seen him post a Vote Yes video on FB within a day or two of him posting a status praising David Cameron. My two living grandparents are Yes voters too.

lottpaul · 15-05-2015 7:10am

rainbow kirby wrote: »

My own wedding is the day after the referendum

Congrats btw - hope you have a brilliant day

ixoy · 15-05-2015 9:10am

Maximus Alexander wrote: »

Fortunately, I appear to have chosen my friends well. They're all vocal yes advocates.

Same. They're posting about it on Twitter, Facebook more than I am.

I haven't debated it with wider family and am afraid for the reasons here : I don't want to think less of them and I absolutely would if they, by voting no, demonstrated they think less of me.

floggg · 15-05-2015 9:39am

feargale wrote: »

Can I turn the question around? Would your best friend or a member of your family be upset by your voting yes? Would they resolve to have no more to do with you? How would you feel or react if they did?

My best friend or family wouldn't. But, hypothetically, that would be there right.

How would I feel? Better off without them! Honestly, if somebody was irritated you voted for equality (in my case, for my own equality), what would it say about them?

As has been said again and again, this referendum is personal. Its people's rights that are being voted on, and so it's no surprise that people would take it personally when people elect to vote against those rights.

I really can't see how that reaction is surprising or difficulty to comprehend. We aren't voting on a fiscal policy or political issue. We are asked to vote on people's rights. And it's only natural that the people whose rights are being voted on would feel hurt and betrayed by those who vote against them.

On the other hand, a Yes vote won't actually affect a No supporter in any way (unless seeing others have the same rights as they do can be described as some sort of negative impact), and so why they would feel hurt is beyond me.

But if they feel that say, so be it. That is their right.

Ozymandius2011 · 15-05-2015 4:15pm

I would be but were dealing with 2000 years of homophobic brainwashing by the Church which also extolls straight marriages as God given. When you're told you are better than other people because of cities destroyed in the Bible and that meanwhile God blesses your straight marriages, then you are predisposed (unless you are not a devout believer) into considering discrimination against lgbt people as morally justifiable.

However there are some exceptions to my last point sometimes if a son or daughter is gay. My mother of 73 is a yes but would she be if I wasn't gay I have doubts. I think outside of Dublin the referendum will encounter more resistance, as this mornings rowdy show in Castlemartyr showed.

Vojera · 15-05-2015 5:00pm

Ozymandius2011 wrote: »

I think outside of Dublin the referendum will encounter more resistance, as this mornings rowdy show in Castlemartyr showed.

Did something happen? I haven't heard anything.

timetogo · 15-05-2015 5:19pm

Vojera wrote: »

Did something happen? I haven't heard anything.

I think it's about the Pat Kenny show this morning. He was off site and talking about the referendum.

Whenever a no campaigner said something like

"Marriage is between a man and a woman" or
"(insert irrelevant argument here) kids"

They got big cheers from the audience.

nathang20 · 16-05-2015 7:25pm

I've canvassed all of family, and all of my friends and including work. I don't think I needed to say anything to any of them. I was just confirming support. I pray and hope that "Yes" is the winner. How happy will all us Gay people be, if its a "Yes". What a mile stone?

Vojera · 16-05-2015 7:34pm

nathang20 wrote: »

I've canvassed all of family, and all of my friends and including work. I don't think I needed to say anything to any of them. I was just confirming support. I pray and hope that "Yes" is the winner. How happy will all us Gay people be, if its a "Yes". What a mile stone?

And what a day for our country too, to be the first country in the world where the ordinary people voted to give equality to their fellow citizens. I really hope it happens.

tomato1234 · 16-05-2015 7:51pm

No matter what other people are going to vote, you gonna love yourself and sharing that love with someone who appreciates you, rather than looking for love to compensate for a self love.

Ozymandius2011 · 17-05-2015 6:24am

I have an aunt whose voting intentions arent clear as we havent discussed it. Shes the same age as my yes voting mother. We are quite close and I came out to her around 13 yrs ago and while she has been mostly okay with it, she has sometimes annoyed me by asking "who told you you were gay". But usually she doesnt mind it - she says she knows lots of gay people. I'll probably avoid discussing this with her as I don't want a row. But if she volunteers info that she votes no, then I will probably not be going round there as much.

My point is this. The yes vote would be much higher if more LGBT came out to their parents, because its very hard for a mother to go against her children. Thats why I am urging more to do so in this campaign. However I recognise that for some that is a risk.

tomato1234 · 18-05-2015 8:45pm

Hi guys,

I am so nervous about this Friday. I have been with my boyfriend for over 13 years now. I have to visit my boyfriend's parents this weekend because his birthday is on Saturday. None of his family members have expressed their opinions. I hope I can put a brave face if it is a No vote.

danjo-xx · 18-05-2015 10:10pm

tomato1234 wrote: »

Hi guys,

I am so nervous about this Friday. I have been with my boyfriend for over 13 years now. I have to visit my boyfriend's parents this weekend because his birthday is on Saturday. None of his family members have expressed their opinions. I hope I can put a brave face if it is a No vote.

Please tell me you are joking! FFS win or loose hold your head up, but if the no's win, you will be still equal but not just under the law (yet)

tomato1234 · 18-05-2015 11:08pm

danjo-xx wrote: »

Please tell me you are joking! FFS win or loose hold your head up, but if the no's win, you will be still equal but not just under the law (yet)

Is that type of comment make someone feel better? Or is it one way to express your anger?

Annasopra · 19-05-2015 12:20am

danjo-xx wrote: »

Please tell me you are joking! FFS win or loose hold your head up, but if the no's win, you will be still equal but not just under the law (yet)

What the?

jaymcg91 · 19-05-2015 12:21am

tomato1234 wrote: »

Is that type of comment make someone feel better? Or is it one way to express your anger?

He has the right sentiment, just a...brutal way of expressing it perhaps

.

He is right, you have nothing to be ashamed of, we are all equal, if it doesn't happen this time, it will the next time.

Keep your chin up, and remember, they're not better than you simply because they were born with a more "stereotypical" (I mean statistically) sexual orientation.

Be happy and gay

.

floggg · 19-05-2015 9:32am

jaymcg91 wrote: »

He has the right sentiment, just a...brutal way of expressing it perhaps .

He is right, you have nothing to be ashamed of, we are all equal, if it doesn't happen this time, it will the next time.

Keep your chin up, and remember, they're not better than you simply because they were born with a more "stereotypical" (I mean statistically) sexual orientation.

Be happy and gay .

I would expect it's not shame or embarrassment he or she would wish to hide - but devastation.

We all know we are equal - it's the fact that others wish to deny that fact which will effect us.

Vojera · 19-05-2015 9:47am

floggg wrote: »

I would expect it's not shame or embarrassment he or she would wish to hide - but devastation.

We all know we are equal - it's the fact that others wish to deny that fact which will effect us.

Definitely. The thought of coming into work on Monday and having everyone commiserate and give me that look of pity but then going on with their lives because it doesn't affect them makes me feel sick inside.

eviltwin · 19-05-2015 10:56am

danjo-xx wrote: »

Please tell me you are joking! FFS win or loose hold your head up, but if the no's win, you will be still equal but not just under the law (yet)

I will be heartbroken if this doesn't pass. That's not hyperbole either. I will be really upset and I'm straight, I can dust myself off and go on safe in the knowledge my rights are still intact. It's not so easy for a person who might see this as a public statement on their relationship.

I will be upset for the gay people I know who won't be able to hold their heads up that easily, for all the couples who will have to put their lives on hold until this country finally gets its act together. I've met a few couples who are waiting to see what happens on Saturday before they know where they stand. They want to plan a wedding not a civil partnership. A CP will be tainted now if it's a No vote. What was seen as a major step forward will now look like a naff consolation prize cause that's what it is really. A facsimile of marriage is not marriage and its not good enough.

Mr.Nice Guy · 19-05-2015 8:01pm

I'm not gay but I'm a strong believer in a Yes vote and it's hurt me to hear members of my family tell me they will vote No. I have lost some respect for them in all honesty. I imagine the feeling must be even more painful for a gay person in such a situation.

I'm really concerned that the polls are going to be proven wrong like in the UK General Election and that people will vote No once in the booth. I think this would be tragic. I'd go so far as to say I'd be ashamed to be associated with this country if it's a No and we become the first country to vote against equality.

I feel it would send out the message that socially conservative Ireland still holds supremacy over our society, and that the battle for progressive values is likely to have to wait another ten to twenty years. How f*cking depressing is that prospect?

L1011 · 19-05-2015 8:10pm

UK polls were out by 2%. Margin of error. First Past The Post causes minor changes to have huge impacts.

danjo-xx · 19-05-2015 8:33pm

I wouldn't be upset, what's the point, but would be very disappointed.

A curse on all their houses)

danjo-xx · 19-05-2015 9:32pm

tomato1234 wrote: »

Is that type of comment make someone feel better? Or is it one way to express your anger?

Sorry my post was HARSH tomato1234 but I was angry after reading your post and you in a 13yr relationship, but I meant well honestly.

timetogo · 19-05-2015 10:33pm

Mr.Nice Guy wrote: »

I'm not gay but I'm a strong believer in a Yes vote and it's hurt me to hear members of my family tell me they will vote No. I have lost some respect for them in all honesty. I imagine the feeling must be even more painful for a gay person in such a situation.

I'm really concerned that the polls are going to be proven wrong like in the UK General Election and that people will vote No once in the booth. I think this would be tragic. I'd go so far as to say I'd be ashamed to be associated with this country if it's a No and we become the first country to vote against equality.

I feel it would send out the message that socially conservative Ireland still holds supremacy over our society, and that the battle for progressive values is likely to have to wait another ten to twenty years. How f*cking depressing is that prospect?

Absolutely 100% agree with everything in this post.
I've been considering what to do if it's a no. The negativity, moaning and inward looking attitudes of many people is wearing thin. This would be close to the final nail in the coffin.

Annasopra · 19-05-2015 10:33pm

danjo-xx wrote: »

Sorry my post was HARSH tomato1234 but I was angry after reading your post and you in a 13yr relationship, but I meant well honestly.

To be honest I was angry reading your post.

LookingFor · 20-05-2015 3:38pm

I believe my father, my brother, and my sister will vote Yes. I think my mother will vote No. It seems no matter what counterpoints are brought to the table, her need to conform to catholic doctrine is an impenetrable bedrock. The last time we spoke about it literally ended in tears and I vowed to just not broach the subject with her again. On the contrary I have had multiple level headed conversations with my Dad. Ten years ago I'd never have thought it would be this way around.

Among those who I believe are voting yes, I've still had knots in my stomach with one or two when they came to me with arguments they heard, trying not be offended or worried that some of the total red herrings being thrown out were giving them pause. Seeing the amount of sh-t being said on radio, TV, in the papers, knowing family and friends are hearing this and reading this, and wondering what they are thinking - it is very draining. Actually sickening in some sense too... my stomach has been, on and off, somersaulting for weeks now.

I know others in similar situations with a sibling or a parent.

I think in the end we just have to be sure we don't let this, or this referendum, be a barometer of our own self worth and value.

Ash885 · 20-05-2015 5:28pm

I was at mass today (long story...) and the priest urged all of us to "vote with our conscience" on Friday and heavily hinted children need "stability and protection" in this confusing time. Then proceeded to talk about some old Franciscan missioner who burned homosexuals and witches at stakes but that the witches didn't deserve it because they were good people.....oh how I laughed.

What struck me though were the eye rolls, grunts and general discomfort many who were there showed. The family and I talked in gusto at what a crock of **** he was talking about and the mother said not to discount people of faith who can tell the referendum and what's being spouted by the No side as different thing entirely. Some people can surprise you for the better.

If a family member or friend were to Vote No I would be incredibly upset. I really can't imagine what I'd do (luckily they're all voting Yes). I'd guess I'd view them in an entirely different light afterwards and it would be incredibly hard to patch things up given it's a cause so strongly held by me.

Ozymandius2011 · 21-05-2015 4:20am

I would avoid them. I avoid bringing it up in classes because I have a suspicion some of the middle aged people on my course might be on the no side e.g. avoiding eye contact.

Ash can you tell me what part of the country this happened in?

Euphoria Intensifies · 21-05-2015 12:43pm

Both my parents are voting no, and one brother would as well but I'm not sure if he's registered. It's quite upsetting. I knew my dad was voting no from the start, as he is a devout Catholic and very socially conservative in general. But was shocked to find out that my mum is voting no - I though that she was generally more liberal than my dad and has been supportive of LGBT rights in the past e.g. civil partnership etc. But she doesn't agree with the children stuff, regardless of the fact that these families already exist and with the recent legislation the referendum won't change that.

I'm not out to my parents, mainly cause I think my dad would possibly disown me. But I had thought I'd maybe have my mums support and she would help talk him around. Can't count on that now unfortunately. I can't come out to them right now because of that possibility, as I know it would literally kill me if they took it badly.

Luckily, all of my friends are voting yes and most have been out canvassing. I've been very unwell recently so couldn't do much campaigning, but it's been great to see that so many people I love are vocally in favour of a yes vote, especially seeing as that most of my family (extended family would be all no voters too, my family are very religious/conservative) aren't.

Tombo2001 · 21-05-2015 12:52pm

I think this thread touches indierectly on an issue -

A lot of people in Ireland simply don't know any LGBT people. I am particularly thinking of people of my parents generation - aged 60 plus. They might have met one or two and be aware of others who are gay, but they don't actually have any friends or family who are LGBT.

In that situation its a lot easier to be ignorant and also to think that its not a big deal and consequently be swayed by bogus arguments about every child needing a mammy and a daddy.

I applaud for example what Mary McAleese has done, but if her son wasn't gay would she be voting No....?

I think to be fair Donal Og Cusack deserves huge credit here for being a gay man in a community where there previously no gay men.

timetogo · 21-05-2015 1:23pm

Tombo2001 wrote: »

I think this thread touches indierectly on an issue -

A lot of people in Ireland simply don't know any LGBT people. I am particularly thinking of people of my parents generation - aged 60 plus. They might have met one or two and be aware of others who are gay, but they don't actually have any friends or family who are LGBT.

In that situation its a lot easier to be ignorant and also to think that its not a big deal and consequently be swayed by bogus arguments about every child needing a mammy and a daddy.

I applaud for example what Mary McAleese has done, but if her son wasn't gay would she be voting No....?

I think to be fair Donal Og Cusack deserves huge credit here for being a gay man in a community where there previously no gay men.

I think many people of my parents generation don't know any (or few) people that admit to being gay.
My dad talks about queers and worse whenever the subject is mentioned. I would assume most gay people would avoid people like that or not come out and say "actually, I'm gay" to people like that.

Tombo2001 · 21-05-2015 1:56pm

timetogo wrote: »

I think many people of my parents generation don't know any (or few) people that admit to being gay.
My dad talks about queers and worse whenever the subject is mentioned. I would assume most gay people would avoid people like that or not come out and say "actually, I'm gay" to people like that.

No I wouldn't see it that way. I'm not talking about where people go out of their way to avoid a homophobe.

I'm more talking about people who are from a generation where no-one came out and as a consequence have never had a friendship or personal relationship with someone they knew to be gay.

For example, my grandmother who is now deceased had four brother who never married. Was one of them gay? I don't know. I doubt she ever considered it. However if one of them had been openly gay it would have transformed the way she saw gay people. Not that she was homophobic in the first place, rather it was something that just wasn't part of her world and therefore she would have had no particular reason to be empathetic to gay people, especially when the church would have been telling her otherwise.

Ash885 · 21-05-2015 4:32pm

Putting a face on a gay person is it. That's why the incredible canvassing done really has shown light on the very people this will all directly affect. I've seen changes in the attitudes of my family after coming out and don't regret it for a singe second because their support during this ***fest of a referendum has been stellar.

Buuuuut...had I not come out previously I really don't know where they would stand on the whole grand scheme of things.

Tony91 · 21-05-2015 5:13pm

I'm very happy my family will be voting YES tomorrow. However, in the beginning my Mam was a NO. She thought it had to do with the church but I explained to her the referendum is about civil marriage and it opened her eyes. Now she'll be voting YES. I have many relatives and friends that will be voting YES and have been very supportive. But there are a small handful of relatives and friends that I believe will be voting NO, and that does upset me. Some are thinking of "the children" and others have been very quiet. In the beginning I said it's their opinion and I need to respect it, but to be honest now when I think about it I will be upset if someone I know votes NO, I don't think I could look at them the same ever again.

lemon_sherbert · 21-05-2015 5:26pm

Ash885 wrote: »

Putting a face on a gay person is it. That's why the incredible canvassing done really has shown light on the very people this will all directly affect. I've seen changes in the attitudes of my family after coming out and don't regret it for a singe second because their support during this ***fest of a referendum has been stellar.

Buuuuut...had I not come out previously I really don't know where they would stand on the whole grand scheme of things.

That's it precisely. My family went from a position of casual homophobia and ignorance (before I came out) to exceptional allies and supporters. I used to be fairly cautious with who I was out to, even though I've been out over three years, but in the run up to the vote I decided that I was going to tell every single person in my life. And only one left, who I'm meeting this evening. It does make a difference, humanising the whole debate. Gay people are no longer abstract, but your friends, family and colleagues.

Aard · 21-05-2015 6:17pm

I have a lot of sympathy for people who come from families where there is hostility towards gay people. That said, there's a part of my that feels like if you haven't come out to your nearest and dearest, you've got little right to complain about the outcome of the referendum. Anybody who's come out will tell you that they've changed at least one person's opinion about gay people. This is all about exposure and normalisation. Most of us have grasped the nettle at some point, and tbh if this referendum hasn't been a good time to come out I'm not sure what is.

Lawliet · 21-05-2015 8:35pm

Aard wrote: »

I have a lot of sympathy for people who come from families where there is hostility towards gay people. That said, there's a part of my that feels like if you haven't come out to your nearest and dearest, you've got little right to complain about the outcome of the referendum. Anybody who's come out will tell you that they've changed at least one person's opinion about gay people. This is all about exposure and normalisation. Most of us have grasped the nettle at some point, and tbh if this referendum hasn't been a good time to come out I'm not sure what is.

I get what you're saying but that's hardly fair on younger members of the community. Teenagers and young adults who are still dependant on their parents can't always take the risk. Its nice to think that all it takes is having a LGBT child for families be cured of homophobia/transphobia, but that's not reality and people need to put their safety and well being first.

tomato1234 · 21-05-2015 11:04pm

Everyone! Free taxis to your polling stations! No excuses!

http://blog.uber.com/dublin-votes?fb_ref=Default

Acciaccatura · 24-05-2015 5:44pm

My father voted no, for reasons related to surrogacy that I felt were a bit misguided, but nothing more, and most definitely not homophobic. My mother, on the other hand, has said herself she is a homophobe, very Catholic, and is of the opinion that this affects the sanctity of her marriage. I'm not okay with this, this seems to contradict what she has said that she will love me no matter how I am; straight, gay, whatever. Her reasons for voting no personally make me feel that her love for me is conditional, that she will support me in all my endeavours as long as I'm straight. I just feel very confused by her opinions, and kind of strange that I just posted this.

So yeah, ultimately it would depend on the reasons why somebody voted no for it to upset me.

pl4ichjgy17zwd · 24-05-2015 6:56pm

My first post in this thread was under the impression of being lucky enough to have full friends and family member support.

I now have one possible aunt who may have voted no. A cousin asked and she got all in a (quite aggressive) fluster saying it's no one business. Now, she can be a little like that anyway, so I would and am giving the benefit of the doubt, but if or when she did say for sure, I would find it very very difficult to have a sincere conversation with her again and would feel as I did in the first post that we would probably fall out of each other's lives. It's very upsetting and people who are/were in that situation have my sympathies and support.

Would you be upset if your family or best friend vote No to marriage referendum

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