Time to burn Greece?

Irish Aris · 07-02-2012 1:42pm

Good day everybody.
My name is Aris and I am from Greece (I hope you won't hate me for that

).
I moved to Ireland four months ago 'cause my employer proposed me to.

I just saw the whole "what's wrong with Greeks" video. It gives some aspects of the situation in Greece.

And you are partially right, Sponge Bob. Some Greek people are really, truly incorrigible.
There are mistakes done for the last 30 years. The country was en route to development and money came in from EU to help the country develop. . .and there was absolutely no control where this money were spent. So there was no substantial development to talk about. I am from Athens, capital of the country, born and lived there and the only organised development/infrastructure etc, was the years before the Olympic games (which was also of course a spending orgy, but at least it left us with something).

For me, the real problem is not that measures are need to be taken, they should. The problem is that not everybody is contributing to the solution for the country.
There has been a great deal of discussion about cuts on wages and pensions. They are true. But. . . what good does it do to cut the wage of someone taking a 1000 eur per month to 800 or 750? (these are true examples) When at the same time people take 2000 eur (or more) that don't see any cuts (or just small cuts) because they have very strong trade unions? Or the politicians, members of parliament etc. actually voting (unanimously) to increase their salary? It should be something for/from everybody.
I chose to leave my country because the alternative was to start looking for a new job. I have already spent 7 months unemployed in 2010 and things were not that bad back then. Officially unemployment is at 20%, but if you ask me it's more than that, as there are people who are long-term unemployed, don't take any social welfare, so they don't really "count".
A friend of mine just got her university diploma as a librarian. If she 'll manage to find a job (which will be difficult), she will get 550 eur. Per month. When I see these numbers, Irish people ask me if I mean per week. When I talk to Irish people about the situation in Greece being worse than here, they probably think I am exaggerating. I don't think I do. The problem in Ireland seems very specific to me-banks ans real estate. In Greece, you don't know where to begin. . .:(

The worst thing for me is that the country can actually get out of it. There are still opportunities for investments and development for Greece. And I am not a hot-shot financial analyst, but I can think of simple ways you can implement this and attract foreing investors/capitals. Instead the Greek governement chose a way that will eventually lead to bankruptcy and everyday people will suffer big time.
In the meantime, certain Greeks have the time of their lives. . .

Apologies for the long post.
Thanks a million for reading and take care.

07-02-2012 1:55pm

Irish Aris wrote: »

When I talk to Irish people about the situation in Greece being worse than here, they probably think I am exaggerating.

Hah, I can imagine.

Anyone who has actually read up on the Greek situation will understand, though. The problem, as I understand it, is that SOMEONE has to pay. Who that is depends on the internal politics of Greece itself. From what I have seen from their trade unions, corrupt public service practices etc, it's like Ireland's problems on megasteroids.

Greece needs fresh thinking and solidarity. Not just solidarity with your own immediate community/trade union etc but national solidarity. When everyone looks after themselves, nobody gets looked after.

I completely understand your decision to leave, and I would imagine that might be an extremely popular decision for many young Greeks as long-term austerity bites.

packiec50 · 07-02-2012 2:41pm

McDave wrote: »

Just watched the whole video.

The Greeks have messed up really badly. They put us in the ha'penny place.

Solutions? Hard to know. But one of them is to repatriate the €200 billion rich Greeks have apparently salted away offshore. If they had any humanity, that's what these guys should be doing. Put their money back to work in Greece.

I watched the video also, I presume it was trying to tug the heartstrings but for me it worked.

Greece is in Debt, but, parents bringing their children to Orphanages? pensions of 345 euros p/m while paying rent of 250 euros p/m?

I don't have a solution either, but is the solution to say Greece you owe us X, you will pay it, here's a loan to help you pay it, but we will only give it to you if you make sure somone suffers for it.

Chucky the tree · 07-02-2012 2:58pm

packiec50 wrote: »

I don't have a solution either, but is the solution to say Greece you owe us X, you will pay it, here's a loan to help you pay it, but we will only give it to you if you make sure somone suffers for it.

Well giving them a loan and then not asking them to fix their problems so they won't ever be able to pay off the loan or even become self-sufficient isn't the answer either.

Irish Aris · 07-02-2012 3:18pm

packiec50 wrote: »

I watched the video also, I presume it was trying to tug the heartstrings but for me it worked.

Greece is in Debt, but, parents bringing their children to Orphanages? pensions of 345 euros p/m while paying rent of 250 euros p/m?

I guess you are right about the heartstrings.

Mind you though, the thing with orphanages is not a general issue. Probably isolated cases here and there.
The pension situation is more common. My parents are both retired. Their two pensions some up together to an amount of 1300 euro per month. They consider themselves extremely fortunate to be able to put food on the table everyday.
I was talking to my mother and she told me that many churches/chapels (sorry, not sure which word is correct) are now giving food to poor people. Also some city councils organise these things. And a couple of big super markets stores (e.g. the equivalent of Dunnes or Tesco) are giving away food that they can not sell (e.g. bread that remained unsold by the end of the day is given to church) and also have big baskets in store and urge customer to share whatever they can.

Chucky the tree wrote: »

Well giving them a loan and then not asking them to fix their problems so they won't ever be able to pay off the loan or even become self-sufficient isn't the answer either.

I totally agree with you. This thing can actually turn the situation around and help the country get back on track. It will be difficult and it will take time. But it can only succeed if it starts moving things to the right direction, which currently it doesn't. If they don't change the general mindset of the whole situation, there is no way out.
Or maybe the Greek government(s) should completely step aside and let someone who knows what they are doing, do something. Right now, they are totally useless and only put new taxes-anybody can do that.

07-02-2012 3:21pm

Lets be clear here. Greeks are doing it to themselves. The international *RESCUE* mission is there to help Greece, not enslave it.

While there are pensioners barely getting by, read up on how much you make if you are an employee of the state rail company.

Scofflaw · 07-02-2012 3:24pm

packiec50 wrote: »

I watched the video also, I presume it was trying to tug the heartstrings but for me it worked.

Greece is in Debt, but, parents bringing their children to Orphanages? pensions of 345 euros p/m while paying rent of 250 euros p/m?

I don't have a solution either, but is the solution to say Greece you owe us X, you will pay it, here's a loan to help you pay it, but we will only give it to you if you make sure somone suffers for it.

It's not a case of "someone suffers for it" - it's that if the Greek system isn't working, and it isn't, then it needs to be changed. If it can be done without anyone suffering, that's great, but if it can't, it's up to the Greeks to decide how to spread the burden. If it's being spread badly because Greek politicians don't want to challenge the unions, what can be done by anyone else?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Maura74 · 07-02-2012 4:32pm

Irish Aris wrote: »

Good day everybody.

it was the years before the Olympic games (which was also of course a spending orgy, but at least it left us with something).

I think the Olympic games should be held in Greece every 4 years from now on as it the first olympic game were held there and was recorded in 776 BC; that was about 3,000 years ago.

That would help them with their debts........:cool:

KIERAN1 · 07-02-2012 5:44pm

Europe can't let Greece go bust (even though they are bust) and that's the problem. If Greek debts were not owed to other countries Greece would have been given the paddle a long time ago.

ART6 · 07-02-2012 5:49pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

It's not a case of "someone suffers for it" - it's that if the Greek system isn't working, and it isn't, then it needs to be changed. If it can be done without anyone suffering, that's great, but if it can't, it's up to the Greeks to decide how to spread the burden. If it's being spread badly because Greek politicians don't want to challenge the unions, what can be done by anyone else?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Not a lot different to Ireland then?

Scofflaw · 07-02-2012 7:34pm

ART6 wrote: »

Not a lot different to Ireland then?

Not dissimilar. The troika provide the money, and in return they get to set targets - but how those targets are reached is up to the government of the country, because that's who the people elected to make those decisions.

An unfashionable viewpoint, I gather, but that's the reality. That's why we're being treated to some fairly nonsensical privatisation moves here, along with the CPA - there's very little political will on the part of the government to go head to head with the unions, and the troika can't make them do it. For all the wailing, this isn't a foreign occupation, but a process which has to respect the democracies it's working with, and who are free to say no as soon as they feel they can do without the loan facility.

cordially,
Scofflaw

K-9 · 07-02-2012 11:09pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

Not dissimilar. The troika provide the money, and in return they get to set targets - but how those targets are reached is up to the government of the country, because that's who the people elected to make those decisions.

An unfashionable viewpoint, I gather, but that's the reality. That's why we're being treated to some fairly nonsensical privatisation moves here, along with the CPA - there's very little political will on the part of the government to go head to head with the unions, and the troika can't make them do it. For all the wailing, this isn't a foreign occupation, but a process which has to respect the democracies it's working with, and who are free to say no as soon as they feel they can do without the loan facility.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Indeed, plenty of posts saying the IMF will sort out the Unions etc. 3/4 years ago and still plenty now saying the exact same thing. Croke Park as an example, will only be scrapped if there aren't many more options.

Then you have the posts blaming the IMF for policy decisions of our Government, property tax a good example. Nope, the Government could reduce tax credits and probably save far more, but it seems they see that as a no, no.

Sand · 08-02-2012 12:04am

Scofflaw wrote: »

It's not a case of "someone suffers for it" - it's that if the Greek system isn't working, and it isn't, then it needs to be changed. If it can be done without anyone suffering, that's great, but if it can't, it's up to the Greeks to decide how to spread the burden. If it's being spread badly because Greek politicians don't want to challenge the unions, what can be done by anyone else?

cordially,
Scofflaw

Isnt that then a criticism of the EU/ECB plan? They extended and pretended, lacked any real ability to conceive or impose actual solutions, and the reality in 2012 is the same as it was in 2010, except the scale and impact of a Greek default is going to be even greater as its going to hit the ECB.

The EU/ECBs funding actually hinders reform because it pushes out the date when the Greek insiders need to face up to reality.

Stheno · 08-02-2012 12:18am

Sand wrote: »

Isnt that then a criticism of the EU/ECB plan? They extended and pretended, lacked any real ability to conceive or impose actual solutions, and the reality in 2012 is the same as it was in 2010, except the scale and impact of a Greek default is going to be even greater as its going to hit the ECB.

The EU/ECBs funding actually hinders reform because it pushes out the date when the Greek insiders need to face up to reality.

But isn't a key difference between ourselves and the Greece that we are meeting the targets they set?

McDave · 08-02-2012 1:15am

packiec50 wrote: »

I watched the video also, I presume it was trying to tug the heartstrings but for me it worked.

Greece is in Debt, but, parents bringing their children to Orphanages? pensions of 345 euros p/m while paying rent of 250 euros p/m?

I don't have a solution either, but is the solution to say Greece you owe us X, you will pay it, here's a loan to help you pay it, but we will only give it to you if you make sure somone suffers for it.

It's awful. But it's effectively their problem. Their wealthy have drained money abroad. They don't have a functioning economy with what's left. They don't raise much taxes yet have a large civil service.

Too many of Greece's problems are of their own making, and it's not right to expect others to solve them. I really fear that the way things look right now, they're going to be cut loose.

Sponge Bob · 08-02-2012 1:21am

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Anyone who has actually read up on the Greek situation will understand, though. The problem, as I understand it, is that SOMEONE has to pay. Who that is depends on the internal politics of Greece itself. From what I have seen from their trade unions, corrupt public service practices etc, it's like Ireland's problems on megasteroids. .

We had exactly the same problems here especially when a certain Charlie Haughey was Taoiseach. It is just that we managed to sort of learn from that experience.

Greece has been generally run by only 3 or 4 political dynastic familes, each headed by a Charlie Haughey type figure, for the last 40 years.

Sand · 08-02-2012 1:47am

Stheno wrote: »

But isn't a key difference between ourselves and the Greece that we are meeting the targets they set?

Theres a lot of differences between us and Greece - but in this case the main one is that the EU/ECB and ourselves can pretend and extend for longer. You have to remember that neither the EU nor Ireland want to announce that we're missing targets so its not news that they claim we are. Growth projections are being cut, unemployment is stubbornly high, and theres a dawning realisation that the savings marked up to "reforms" in the public sector exist only in the imagination of the social partners.

The ECB/EU still dont have any real solutions - instead we'll spend the next 5-6 years trying to drag out the balancing of the budget over the longest possible time period whilst building up the greatest possible debt overhang. But as it stands the maths remains the same - ECB doesnt want to run 3-4% inflation, the Germans dont want transfers. That leaves one destination. The Greeks are just ahead of the pack.

ART6 · 08-02-2012 9:14am

Scofflaw wrote: »

Not dissimilar. The troika provide the money, and in return they get to set targets - but how those targets are reached is up to the government of the country, because that's who the people elected to make those decisions.

An unfashionable viewpoint, I gather, but that's the reality. That's why we're being treated to some fairly nonsensical privatisation moves here, along with the CPA - there's very little political will on the part of the government to go head to head with the unions, and the troika can't make them do it. For all the wailing, this isn't a foreign occupation, but a process which has to respect the democracies it's working with, and who are free to say no as soon as they feel they can do without the loan facility.

cordially,
Scofflaw

I agree. I see this situation as rather like going to a bank for a loan when one hasn't the money to fund an essential requirement. The bank sets out the terms of the loan and how and when it should be repaid. When is is, then there is no longer any relationship with the bank.

The only question is, does the bank set terms that require one to, for example, give up smoking? No, and I don't believe that the troika did either. I suspect that the claim that they insisted on property taxes etc. is a lie told by cowards who daren't accept responsibility for their own decisions.

steve9859 · 08-02-2012 9:44am

McDave wrote: »

It's awful. But it's effectively their problem. Their wealthy have drained money abroad. They don't have a functioning economy with what's left. They don't raise much taxes yet have a large civil service.

Too many of Greece's problems are of their own making, and it's not right to expect others to solve them. I really fear that the way things look right now, they're going to be cut loose.

I think it is looking likely now that Greece will be cut loose, and tbh, if I were a Greek worker, I would rather take my chances with a Drachma than face the certain destruction of the country (or at least a certain demographic within the country) through a generation of austerity. The only difference is how long the pain is drawn out.

But I also think that will be the end of it, and that the rest of Europe, portugal included, will be flooded with cash to show that no-one else will go. And for sure, my next holiday will be to Greece - it will be as cheap as chips.

Damian_ir · 08-02-2012 10:11am

steve9859 wrote: »

I think it is looking likely now that Greece will be cut loose, and tbh, if I were a Greek worker, I would rather take my chances with a Drachma than face the certain destruction of the country (or at least a certain demographic within the country) through a generation of austerity.

This is true. Unfortunately Mafia(aka Papademos-Papandreou-Samaras-Karatzaferis) in Athens playing the role of Realty Agents. A few people here in Greece think that the last trip of George Devastator Papandreou to Costa Rica was actually for a new home deal. Perhaps this is the place that he wants to live for the rest of his life. Back door of his home in Athens is constantly unlocked.

Scofflaw · 08-02-2012 11:29am

Sand wrote: »

Isnt that then a criticism of the EU/ECB plan? They extended and pretended, lacked any real ability to conceive or impose actual solutions, and the reality in 2012 is the same as it was in 2010, except the scale and impact of a Greek default is going to be even greater as its going to hit the ECB.

The EU/ECBs funding actually hinders reform because it pushes out the date when the Greek insiders need to face up to reality.

So a doctor "hinders" reform of your heart attack inducing lifestyle by giving you treatment to stave off a heart attack?

I suppose you could say that - but I don't think many people would be that impressed with a doctor who refused someone the drugs on the basis that a coronary would make them 'face up to reality'.

Greece does need to reform, but it also needs not to implode violently while doing so. For the good of the Greek people, that is, as opposed to some purist notion that the Greeks need to reform just because they "ought" to "face up to reality".

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sponge Bob · 08-02-2012 11:54am

Greece as I said is incorrigible. It is a demagoguery not a democracy.

Your analogy about coronaries is apt for Portugal perhaps.

What other long bankrupt state maintains a massive air force for 'backing' its Socialists while its massive army backs 'New Democracy' as they are called.

Scofflaw · 08-02-2012 12:10pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Greece as I said is incorrigible. It is a demagoguery not a democracy.

Your analogy about coronaries is apt for Portugal perhaps.

What other long bankrupt state maintains a massive air force for 'backing' its Socialists while its massive army backs 'New Democracy' as they are called.

I take your point, but doctors do give heart drugs to enormously fat alcoholic smokers. The argument for not doing so cannot realistically be solely that the person is "incorrigible", because they are still a person. Or, in this case, the Greeks are people, and Greece is part of Europe.

One could make the argument from scarcity that scarce drugs should not be given to an 'incorrigible' patient in preference to others who are willing to reform - or in this case that financial assistance should not be diverted to
Greece from countries that are more prepared to reform (Greece has undergone reform, but insufficient reform).

In that sense, Ireland is a "good patient" - we've given up the fags (although not apparently the alcohol) and we're shedding economic fat like a diet queen preparing for a marathon. But the question is whether Greece is taking up scarce financial resources which are urgently needed elsewhere, and given that the new Greek bailout is still only a fraction of a percent of the EU's GDP over the timescale involved, and is a loan rather than a handout, its hard to make that argument.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sponge Bob · 08-02-2012 12:33pm

Again by analogy. The patient is not alone and is going to need a lot more drugs than the rest of the patients. It has a long history of self abuse and loud denial , along with bombastic binges, where Portugal has a history of mannerly decrepitude by comparison.

Portugal is around the same size. More co operative and much more manageable.

So does one prioritise where one deploys the drugs. I think one does.

swampgas · 08-02-2012 12:46pm

There is a lot of brinkmanship going on as well. According to an article in the IT recently, the Greeks may be hoping that fear of contagion will force the rest of the EU to go ahead with the bail out, regardless of whether Greece agrees to all the demands being made of it. This could be a very high risk strategy though:

The rhetoric from top Europeans suggests they are resigned to go all the way to bankruptcy if the wayward Greeks do not come to their senses quickly. Some people in Athens are still betting that the contagion risks are so great that their sponsors won’t pull the trapdoor.

In the eyes of many Europeans, however, this is the very mentality which led Greece to renege on many of its obligations under the first bailout. In diplomatic circles, questions abound as to whether Germany might let Greece go.

Patience ran out long ago – and many critical issues in the bailout remain to be settled. “We are not fully in control of the sequence of events,” says a well-placed euro zone official. No understatement there.

Interesting times.

Scofflaw · 08-02-2012 12:46pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Again by analogy. The patient is not alone and is going to need a lot more drugs than the rest of the patients. It has a long history of self abuse and loud denial , along with bombastic binges, where Portugal has a history of mannerly decrepitude by comparison.

Portugal is around the same size. More co operative and much more manageable.

So does one prioritise where one deploys the drugs. I think one does.

Tempting, but un-Hippocratic...

cordially,
Scofflaw

Sponge Bob · 08-02-2012 12:55pm

These drugs are finite Scofflaw.

The 'markets' consider the patient untreatable and the doctor will not lose face if it croaks. Self inflicted and all that.

08-02-2012 1:15pm

swampgas wrote: »

There is a lot of brinkmanship going on as well. According to an article in the IT recently, the Greeks may be hoping that fear of contagion will force the rest of the EU to go ahead with the bail out, regardless of whether Greece agrees to all the demands being made of it. This could be a very high risk strategy though:

Interesting times.

Definitely extremely risky, the big question being - what happens next? Does Greece devolve into some sort of socialist nut-case where they'll tell tales to children about how the big bad Troika attempted to enslave all Greek children for eternity :eek:

Scofflaw · 08-02-2012 2:01pm

Sponge Bob wrote: »

These drugs are finite Scofflaw.

Not in the quantities they're being used, really.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The 'markets' consider the patient untreatable and the doctor will not lose face if it croaks. Self inflicted and all that.

Sure, but that doesn't change the ethical or solidarity arguments.

cordially,
Scofflaw

Dr Galen · 08-02-2012 2:28pm

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Definitely extremely risky, the big question being - what happens next? Does Greece devolve into some sort of socialist nut-case where they'll tell tales to children about how the big bad Troika attempted to enslave all Greek children for eternity :eek:

I think the what happens next question is one that no-one really knows the answer to.

To use another analogy, There is a box on the table. I have no idea what is in it. Could be a fluffy bunny, could be a cup of coffee, could be a tiger, could be really evil dinosaur/transformer hybrid who likes to rip heads off.

If Greece gets cut loose, and moves to drachma Nua, I don't think we have anything other than some semi-educated guesses. A lot will depend on how cut off Greece is as well. Can anyone really see a situation whereby the Euro area and indeed the Americans stand idly by while Athens burns?

Sponge Bob · 08-02-2012 3:08pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

Not in the quantities they're being used, really.
Sure, but that doesn't change the ethical or solidarity arguments.

But all that is required is an end to long term self destructive tendencies requiring medication.

Bit like blood transfusions. There is no point in showing solidarity and giving blood to those who objectively need it if they are continually slashing themselves as you do. :cool:

Greek politicians are busy fighting the next election instead of saving their country. none of the main parties ....least of all both of them...will wholeheartedly admit their own part in this farce/tragedy.

McDave · 08-02-2012 11:04pm

steve9859 wrote: »

I think it is looking likely now that Greece will be cut loose, and tbh, if I were a Greek worker, I would rather take my chances with a Drachma than face the certain destruction of the country (or at least a certain demographic within the country) through a generation of austerity. The only difference is how long the pain is drawn out.

TBH, I think austerity for the Greeks outside the Euro will be far worse. At least within the Euro they have the prospect of constructing a proper economy. Outside the Euro, it's growing olives and mending fishing nets.

McDave · 08-02-2012 11:06pm

steve9859 wrote: »

And for sure, my next holiday will be to Greece - it will be as cheap as chips.

:-)

In Drachmas? I'll probably join you!!

Sand · 08-02-2012 11:43pm

Scofflaw wrote: »

So a doctor "hinders" reform of your heart attack inducing lifestyle by giving you treatment to stave off a heart attack?

I suppose you could say that - but I don't think many people would be that impressed with a doctor who refused someone the drugs on the basis that a coronary would make them 'face up to reality'.

Greece does need to reform, but it also needs not to implode violently while doing so. For the good of the Greek people, that is, as opposed to some purist notion that the Greeks need to reform just because they "ought" to "face up to reality".

cordially,
Scofflaw

Well - if were going to go into analogy land where everything is a a lot like something entirely different - its worth noting that doctors treating morbidly obese individuals will withhold medical treatment until there is clear evidence of a lifestyle change in the patient.

But outside analogy land, the ECB/EU plan for Greece has to be judged on its merits - theyve been intervening for the best part of two years, toppling governments, demanding budgetary changes and throwing cash around and the end result is Greece is - as always - a few weeks away from default, with no clear path out of the quagmire.

Who knows, Greece may agree some last minute deal and more than likely the ECB will blink first ( The crazed threats to suicide bomb the EU banking system are hollow - without a Euro, there is no need for the ECB). But Greece simply cannot pay off the debts its taken on.

That reality ought to have been dealt with years ago. All the intervening years have accomplished is a far more bitter and poisoned Europe and allowed private banks to escape their stupid investments so that they can make more stupid investments later.

Sponge Bob · 09-02-2012 12:37am

As Expected!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-16958102

Greek Prime Minister Lucas Papademos has failed to secure the support of his coalition for a raft of new austerity measures, reports say.

He was meeting officials from three parties to try to secure a deal leading to a fresh bailout package.

The main stumbling block in the crunch talks were proposed cuts to supplementary pensions, reports said.

Mr Papademos was said to be going directly to discuss the problem with EU and IMF officials.

09-02-2012 4:03pm

According to Sky News there's a deal secured.

Greek politicians have reached a deal over new austerity measures, the indebted country's prime minister has announced.

The office of Greek PM Lucas Papademos said the coalition partners had come to an agreement on new cuts with its creditors to secure a vital £109bn (130bn euro) bailout.
Officials have laboured since October to secure the money, needed to make up a budget deficit shortage of about £2.5bn and avoid a possible default.
European Central Bank chief Mario Draghi confirmed the deal in a news conference at lunchtime.
He said had received a phone call from Mr Papademos just minutes earlier and "he told me that agreement has been reached and has been endorsed by major parties."
European stocks rose on the news.
A spokeswoman for the prime minister's office said the agreement among the political parties will allow alternative cuts to those rejected earlier on Thursday.
Marathon talks between the socialist, conservative and far-right party leaders backing Mr Papademos' interim government had ended with agreement on most of the measures demanded by the country's creditors - the EU, IMF and the European Central Bank - to make up the budget deficit shortage.
The politicians signed up to a 22% reduction in the miniumum wage and a total of 150,000 job cuts in the public sector, of which 15,000 will go this year.
But talks faltered over plans to slice even more from pensions, leaving a £524m (625m euro) gap in the deal, raising the prospect that pensions in Greece would have to be cut in the midst of a biting recession to make up the shortfall.

Full pensions are already in line for a 15% cut, according to reports.
The deal came ahead of a meeting in Brussels on Thursday evening of finance ministers from the 17 countries which use the euro, together with the heads of the ECB and the IMF.
The new austerity deal will come under further scrutiny at the meeting.
Some economists believe Greece is contracting at such a rate the cuts are not severe enough, and believe the ECB may have to make up the shortfall by swapping some of the Greek debt it holds for bonds issued by the temporary bailout fund, the European Financial Stability Facility.
Greece has run up total debt of about £294bn (350bn euros), roughly 160% of its gross domestic product, and the IMF has insisted that level be brought down to a maximum of 120% of GDP by 2020.

Private creditors are also negotiating a write-off of Greek debts worth at least £84bn (100bn euros), and are to meet on Thursday in Paris.
Greece is reliant on international handouts to stay solvent and it faces a £12bn (14.4bn euro) bill on March 20, when it has to pay back bondholders.
Without this second bailout, it could have forced a default, triggering a so-called credit event, which would have severe consequences for the global economy.

Will it be enough? Can Greece be saved or will this new bout of austerity lead to Athens burning?

I think it will be far easier for the leading parties to agree than it will be for the pensioner who loses yet another 15% of an already meagre pension.

Sponge Bob · 09-02-2012 4:24pm

This could unravel again by Monday. Lets see.

stackerman · 09-02-2012 4:38pm

This is not a fix, its only a bodge, and the markets will see that (but I suspect it will not be straight away). The Greek political parties, unions and the right will cause chaos over the next 6 mths (maybe sooner) and they will eventually tell the EU to stuff it.
Whats really sicking about ALL the leaders (of practically ALL the various economies across the western world) is that they are ALL making decisions based on upcoming elections, rather than whats best for it's people.

More can kicking, IMHO

ART6 · 09-02-2012 7:45pm

Greece is by far the worst budget performer in the EU (closely followed by Italy). Its government has consistently mislead the ECB etc. since the day it joined the euro and what it is agreeing to do now will only happen if their people accept it, which they increasingly look unlikely to do. If they do accept the austerity measures, how long will they continue to do so when the measures really begin to bite and their already fragile economy collapses completely? That, surely, is what excessive austerity leads to?

What happens when unemployment reaches a level where benefits are not sustainable and when the Germans won't pay them any more, and where wage cuts have reduced domestic consumption to a point where the retail industry begins to fail (so no food in the shops and, indeed, no shops. East Germany anyone?). There is always a limit to what the masses will tolerate, and when that limit is reached their reaction is unpredictable because it is driven by emotion.

I am no economist, but the Greek situation looks to me like a "controlled" default, since they have somehow contrived a massive haircut for bond holders, and that haircut seems to be approaching a crew cut daily. Ah! but the bond holders were risk takers. "Don't invest what you can't afford to lose". No they weren't. They bought government bonds with a very low interest rate because they were supposed to be guaranteed. The same investors could put their money into a private sector project, where their rate of return would be expected to be between 25% and 30% rather than 3% to 6%, but that would not be guaranteed.

So what for Ireland? Well, our noble leader has said "Ireland pays its debts." Which, loosely translated into non-political speak, means "Our people will pay someone else's debts." We will reduce our people to penury in the faint expectation that our industry will somehow experience a resurgency and solve all of the problems that we dare not address. They will be expected to do do without any government support. In the meantime, we will get a pat on the head from the diminutive president of France, where there there is also a severe budget issue.

This is a turmoil, and I doubt if anyone knows where it's going. A new world order? Collapse of the finance industry? Return to bartering? I am an average Joe, so I have no idea. However, I do suspect that the international finance industry has become totally out of control. When that starts to really impact upon the people, then beware! There are (what) seven billion of them out there, when there are few million (at most) investors/financiers/politicians. Interesting demographic times ahead. You people in the elite financial and political circles might have some shocks coming! The people didn't create that, in Greece or anywhere else. You did!

Maura74 · 09-02-2012 8:18pm

We are going to be fed the Olympics from now on and also the queens jubilee that should keep the public sweet for a while.:(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16963116

Mr.Micro · 09-02-2012 8:47pm

Bank of England injects another £50bn into UK economy

Maura74 wrote: »

We are going to be fed the Olympics from now on and also the queens jubilee that should keep the public sweet for a while.:(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-16963116

The UK treasury put £45 billion to save The Royal Bank of Scotland and most of all that has been used up writing off its bad debts/loans and restructuring. How does it say thank you.....it gives the top guy a million pounds bonus, tax payers money, which he eventually was forced to refuse. Banks have no gratitude.

djpbarry · 10-02-2012 10:35pm

ART6 wrote: »

You people in the elite financial and political circles might have some shocks coming! The people didn't create that, in Greece or anywhere else. You did!

The people of Greece had no part in creating the current situation in Greece? Really? Can you say that with a straight face?

Damian_ir · 13-02-2012 10:51am

Benefits of the European Union for the citizens

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWEVNGcwInE

Death of Democracy in Greece of 2012

Hundrends of these motorcycles, were used last night by police to send people home.

Tons of chemicals and police-bombs were launched by them.

Thousand of people were trying to reach syntagma(constitution) square to join the rest of the people who were protesting there.

They never managed to get there !

AlekSmart · 13-02-2012 1:56pm

Damian_ir wrote: »

Benefits of the European Union for the citizens

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWEVNGcwInE

Death of Democracy in Greece of 2012

Hundrends of these motorcycles, were used last night by police to send people home.

Tons of chemicals and police-bombs were launched by them.

Thousand of people were trying to reach syntagma(constitution) square to join the rest of the people who were protesting there.

They never managed to get there !

One of the benefits of the EU is an obviously well equipped Police Force,even if their tactics are a bit suspect.

I'm not so certain Greek Democracy is even being tickled here,as such demonstrations,often violent in nature have in the past been a feature of the Greek socio-political environment.

It's not so much a case of "Beware the Greeks who come bearing gifts" but one of "Beware the Greeks who come to repossess the gifts they could'nt afford".

However,unless the various Irish anarchist movements managed to get a few cheap flights in order to do a bit of fact-finding,I'd not be expecting any such explosions along Grafton St as yet.......too damn damp and cold for one,and a population not so much given to crockery throwing.

Mind you,if anybody here thinks the various Agencies tasked with the Maintenance of Good Order and Discipline in Ireland have not been preparing for similar,then think again.

Another odd aspect is how the Greek Polis,facing a dollop of their own Pay and Pension cuts are managing to maintain their support of the "System".....Odd that

McDave · 13-02-2012 7:53pm

Damian_ir wrote: »

Benefits of the European Union for the citizens

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aWEVNGcwInE

Death of Democracy in Greece of 2012

Hundrends of these motorcycles, were used last night by police to send people home.

Tons of chemicals and police-bombs were launched by them.

Thousand of people were trying to reach syntagma(constitution) square to join the rest of the people who were protesting there.

They never managed to get there !

The average Greek must feel utterly humiliated at this stage. But it was the average Greek that elected their goofy politicians and who turned a blind eye to tax dodging and civil service jobs for the boys and girls.

If the truth is to be acknowledged, the Greeks haven't needed the EU to launch coups. In fact they were hoping that joining the EC would draw a line under their political instability. However, in the intervening decades they have done little to construct a modern functioning state. And now they're paying the price.

It's simply not the EU's job to sort out Greece's problems. The EU/EZ can provide a template. But the Greeks themselves have to do the heavy lifting. Maybe the agreement on the second bailout might provide Greece with the push it needs. Let's hope they can finally see sense. But the Greeks should never have let it come to this in the first place.

Icepick · 13-02-2012 8:10pm

The best way to protest against austerity is by burning small businesses, eh.

AlekSmart wrote: »

Another odd aspect is how the Greek Polis,facing a dollop of their own Pay and Pension cuts are managing to maintain their support of the "System".....Odd that

That's not odd. They won't get anything without a bailout.

Irish Aris · 13-02-2012 10:09pm

Sign of the times.
I talked to friends back home, the disaster in the center of Athens is huge. And it was obvious that they were heading there from early afternoon. There were many people that just want there to burn and destroy (and some of them are police provocateurs).

Anyway, I had a look at the new measures that will go through and one of the points are a further 20-30% cut on wages and pensions. This means that hundreds of thousands of people will have to survive on 450-700 euro per month. There will be no money to go around and the market will freeze. Why don't they just call it off and defualt now? The chances to avoid it anyway, seems very narrow now. . .

Maura74 · 14-02-2012 12:52am

Irish Aris wrote: »

Sign of the times.
I talked to friends back home, the disaster in the center of Athens is huge. And it was obvious that they were heading there from early afternoon. There were many people that just want there to burn and destroy (and some of them are police provocateurs).

Anyway, I had a look at the new measures that will go through and one of the points are a further 20-30% cut on wages and pensions. This means that hundreds of thousands of people will have to survive on 450-700 euro per month. There will be no money to go around and the market will freeze. Why don't they just call it off and defualt now? The chances to avoid it anyway, seems very narrow now. . .

450-700 eruos a month is a lot of money people should no problems surviving that amount of money.

AlekSmart · 14-02-2012 1:32am

Maura74 wrote: »

450-700 eruos a month is a lot of money people should no problems surviving that amount of money.

Indeed Maura74.......unless they did'nt know what a Tracker was,and decided to get on the Property Ladder before the neighbours or they still have a few payments left on the oul Cayenne......

http://autos.sympatico.ca/weird-automotive-news/10098/greece-should-not-have-this-many-porsches

I'm sure if any Irish entreprenure were to invest in a few,the ex Grecian Porsche Cayenne might still be worth a few bob here ?

lmimmfn · 14-02-2012 1:59am

Maura74 wrote: »

450-700 eruos a month is a lot of money people should no problems surviving that amount of money.

2.50euro or 3.88euro an hour for working on average a 180hour month when the prices are basically the same as in ireland for shopping/food/drink/taxis/public transport, petrol is even more expensive than ireland? how the hell can you live on just over 100euro a week, pay for mortgage, transport to/from work, lunch, shopping and bills on that? Its not like being on the dole where you dont incur most of those costs and have the possibility of rent allowance etc.

Lets not forget that most of the austerity measures impact the private sector mainly while the public sector still enjoys early retirement possibilities along with nice pensions and job security.

Time to burn Greece?

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