Golf Memberships

GreeBo · 01-01-2015 3:06pm

Slicemeister wrote: »

Those courses shouldn't be running Open Competitions if they don't need the revenue on that logic. Let their club members stump up more next year in membership fees, that'll keep em happy.

That revenue obviously isn't going to be ignored/rejected, but what percentage of their total income do you honestly think it forms?

Check out the spreadsheet I attached earlier to see the numbers required before opens will support golf clubs.

Russman · 01-01-2015 3:10pm

Slicemeister wrote: »

Those courses shouldn't be running Open Competitions if they don't need the revenue on that logic. Let their club members stump up more next year in membership fees, that'll keep em happy.

I'm not 100% sure on this, but I have a (admittedly very vague) recollection of offering some Open competitions being a requirement or stipulation of GUI affiliation. Maybe someone knows for sure......?

Either way, income from Opens is very welcome to any club, but pales in comparison to their income from annual subs. I can't imagine many clubs being kept afloat based on their Opens.

Slicemeister · 01-01-2015 3:11pm

GreeBo wrote: »

That revenue obviously isn't going to be ignored/rejected, but what percentage of their total income do you honestly think it forms?

Check out the spreadsheet I attached earlier to see the numbers required before opens will support golf clubs.

Regardless of how much revenue it generates, they obviously don't need visitors freeloading on the back of distance membership to generate cash. Just lock up Jurassic Park and leave it to the dinosaurs.

GreeBo · 01-01-2015 3:14pm

Slicemeister wrote: »

Regardless of how much revenue it generates, they obviously don't need visitors freeloading on the back of distance membership to generate cash. Just lock up Jurassic Park and leave it to the dinosaurs.

Arguments that are "regardless of how much revenue it generates" are what has clubs in so much trouble.

Jurassic Park has all the nice rides, tell you what, we'll take Jurassic Park and leave Funderland to you, deal?

First Up · 01-01-2015 3:20pm

Slicemeister wrote: »

Those courses shouldn't be running Open Competitions if they don't need the revenue on that logic. Let their club members stump up more next year in membership fees, that'll keep em happy.

Opens were never intended as revenue generators. They are meant to be inter-club events within the spirit of GUI affiliation. For most clubs they represent small change.

Slicemeister · 01-01-2015 3:20pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Arguments that are "regardless of how much revenue it generates" are what has clubs in so much trouble.

Jurassic Park has all the nice rides, tell you what, we'll take Jurassic Park and leave Funderland to you, deal?

You know which one is still around yes? Not the one populated by Neanderthals.

GreeBo · 01-01-2015 4:11pm

Slicemeister wrote: »

You know which one is still around yes? Not the one populated by Neanderthals.

Neanderthals don't populate either Jurassic Park or Funderland.
Unless these Neanderthals are using a De Lorean or a Tardis?

I know which one has been around for over 100 years and is still going strong, with a queue of people trying to get in...but I forgot, you don't like arguments that are based around inconvenient facts like money...

inthehole1 · 01-01-2015 4:17pm

First Up wrote: »

Opens were never intended as revenue generators. They are meant to be inter-club events within the spirit of GUI affiliation. For most clubs they represent small change.

A lot of courses are charging very little for their open days which is attracting the distance member golfers to come play in the open comps.maybe if the open comp fee for visitors was higher there would be less distance members.15/ 20 euro to play an open is very cheap which encourages the distance membership in my opinion.my home course charges 35 euro for open comp which limits the attraction to play

GreeBo · 01-01-2015 4:21pm

inthehole1 wrote: »

A lot of courses are charging very little for their open days which is attracting the distance member golfers to come play in the open comps.maybe if the open comp fee for visitors was higher there would be less distance members.15/ 20 euro to play an open is very cheap which encourages the distance membership in my opinion.my home course charges 35 euro for open comp which limits the attraction to play

Does your home course get many people (non members) at its opens though?
Pricing yourself out of the market isn't going to help if Carton are offering Montgomerie for €40.
Its supposed to be a nice way for other local members to play your course without stumping up for a green fee.
If your open is €35, whats your greenfee rate?

inthehole1 · 01-01-2015 4:36pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Does your home course get many people (non members) at its opens though?
Pricing yourself out of the market isn't going to help if Carton are offering Montgomerie for €40.
Its supposed to be a nice way for other local members to play your course without stumping up for a green fee.
If your open is €35, whats your greenfee rate?

The numbers of non members wouldn't be very big.more of an occasional round for a non member more so than a regular basis.green fees are actually going up this year I just noticed to 100euro in summer altho I'm sure like most courses there is always deal to be got.i would assume with this increase the cost of opens will increase aswell.
I understand courses requiring the extra money from opens to keep going.meaning they offer cheap green fees.this will always result in distance memberships being very attractive

GreeBo · 01-01-2015 4:44pm

inthehole1 wrote: »

I understand courses requiring the extra money from opens to keep going.meaning they offer cheap green fees.this will always result in distance memberships being very attractive

Actually the argument is against the opposite, they are using the distance subs to keep going, letting someone else give their distance members a course to play on.
Opens have always been around and been a good deal, hopefully they always will and dont get ruined by distance membership exploitation.

inthehole1 · 01-01-2015 4:51pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Actually the argument is against the opposite, they are using the distance subs to keep going, letting someone else give their distance members a course to play on.
Opens have always been around and been a good deal, hopefully they always will and dont get ruined by distance membership exploitation.

I understand that but that ain't going to change until something is enforced by the gui with regards limiting the number of distance members a club can have or something else along these lines.im not in favour of distance memberships but a club will do whatever it has to to stay open.a lot of the clubs already mentioned wouldn't be open if they didn't offer cheap distance memberships.
With regard opens.yes they have always been around but clubs now have couple of opens a week solely based on the fact they need more revenue

Slicemeister · 01-01-2015 4:59pm

GreeBo wrote: »

Neanderthals don't populate either Jurassic Park or Funderland.
Unless these Neanderthals are using a De Lorean or a Tardis?

I know which one has been around for over 100 years and is still going strong, with a queue of people trying to get in...but I forgot, you don't like arguments that are based around inconvenient facts like money...

This'll probably end the way your debates do where you disagree with a poster, so I'll step out before you abuse your mod powers again.

FixdePitchmark · 01-01-2015 5:02pm

There are so many posts now , links etc.

Could anyone summarize - if the GUI or anyone has good data on how many distance members there are.
Good debate and all that , but is it a valid issue at all for the future of golf ?

I'd love to see a %.

As i mentioned earlier - the type of member you are should be part of the info stored on card electronically (if not already?).

It would just make data collection and analysis of the golf market so much easier.

I'll be honest - I don't know of one distance member.

First Up · 01-01-2015 5:19pm

inthehole1 wrote: »

I understand that but that ain't going to change until something is enforced by the gui with regards limiting the number of distance members a club can have or something else along these lines.im not in favour of distance memberships but a club will do whatever it has to to stay open.a lot of the clubs already mentioned wouldn't be open if they didn't offer cheap distance memberships.
With regard opens.yes they have always been around but clubs now have couple of opens a week solely based on the fact they need more revenue

As a matter of interest, what is the "distance" requirement for distance membership? I imagine it isn't a problem for back of beyond places like Slievenamon or ROK, but where do the "distance" members of a club in Blessington live? Or does their description as "minor" members mean they have some other scam going?

And please tell me the clubs depending on revenue from opens for survival, because I don't know any.

Russman · 01-01-2015 5:24pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

There are so many posts now , links etc.

Could anyone summarize - if the GUI or anyone has good data on how many distance members there are.
Good debate and all that , but is it a valid issue at all for the future of golf ?

I'd love to see a %.

As i mentioned earlier - the type of member you are should be part of the info stored on card electronically (if not already?).

It would just make data collection and analysis of the golf market so much easier.

I'll be honest - I don't know of one distance member.

That's a good point, just how many distance members are out there ?
My gut feeling is that it is in the hundreds as opposed to the thousands, but that's a complete guess. Clearly it's a factor in the whole golf issue, but just how much of a factor is it in reality ?

Not sure having the info on the card is feasible, clubs will just come up with different titles for different classes of membership.

I suppose I probably know 5 or 6 distance members off the top of my head but I find you only tend to know them when you'd say in passing "........I haven't seen Joe in a while...." And someone will say ".......no, he wasn't playing enough so left and joined Ballyxxxxxx...."

inthehole1 · 01-01-2015 5:29pm

First Up wrote: »

As a matter of interest, what is the "distance" requirement for distance membership? I imagine it isn't a problem for back of beyond places like Slievenamon or ROK, but where do the "distance" members of a club in Blessington live? Or does their description as "minor" members mean they have some other scam going?

And please tell me the clubs depending on revenue from opens for survival, because I don't know any.

I would imagine the requirement would differ for each club.course not too far from me has distance membership for 150 as long as your reside 60 km away
Maybe these courses ain't depending on opens for survival but tgat extra income is certainly helping.

First Up · 01-01-2015 5:30pm

Russman wrote: »

That's a good point, just how many distance members are out there ?
My gut feeling is that it is in the hundreds as opposed to the thousands, but that's a complete guess. Clearly it's a factor in the whole golf issue, but just how much of a factor is it in reality ?

Not sure having the info on the card is feasible, clubs will just come up with different titles for different classes of membership.

I suppose I probably know 5 or 6 distance members off the top of my head but I find you only tend to know them when you'd say in passing "........I haven't seen Joe in a while...." And someone will say ".......no, he wasn't playing enough so left and joined Ballyxxxxxx...."

It would be simple to come up with a set of membership categories that are recognised within and between GUI affiliated clubs. It would also be legit for clubs to differentiate between those categories in their pricing of opens.

FixdePitchmark · 01-01-2015 5:30pm

Another thing.

I'm not that great at Facebook or Twitter man.

But rather worryingly I haven't found GUI on them - please someone tell me this is not true ?

First Up · 01-01-2015 5:37pm

inthehole1 wrote: »

I would imagine the requirement would differ for each club.course not too far from me has distance membership for 150 as long as your reside 60 km away
Maybe these courses ain't depending on opens for survival but tgat extra income is certainly helping.

Mmmmm. 60k would be on the edge of credibility and Blessington is a lot less than that from Dublin....

FixdePitchmark · 01-01-2015 5:39pm

First Up wrote: »

It would be simple to come up with a set of membership categories that are recognised within and between GUI affiliated clubs. It would also be legit for clubs to differentiate between those categories in their pricing of opens.

People think above is a bit out there.

But , what is wrong with rewarding people who put more into the game than others. In GAA clubs , guys get tickets for matches etc.

In the past , the cheap open was a reward to GUI supporters - what reward is there now ?

Tesco and Supervalue do it.

I'm not saying it would work , but is an interesting idea. Even if the GUI were giving out tickets for the Irish Opens etc.

I know it is not a supermarket , but at least market - they don't seem great at retaining people.

A few ideas a bit out there - but, the organisation does not seem to be moving ?

The only time I came across the GUI - was at an Irish elite amateur event at Royal Dublin. Is that the future of golf ? The only reason I was there was an invite from Royal Dublin, wasn't even because of GUI.

First Up · 01-01-2015 5:41pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Another thing.

I'm not that great at Facebook or Twitter man.

But rather worryingly I haven't found GUI on them - please someone tell me this is not true ?

Look harder. GUI on Facebook, with 2,953 likes.

FixdePitchmark · 01-01-2015 5:44pm

First Up wrote: »

Look harder. GUI on Facebook, with 2,953 likes.

on phone so was struggling - 2953 likes, Jesus. A cat falling off a tree would have more.

First Up · 01-01-2015 5:49pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

on phone so was struggling - 2953 likes, Jesus. A cat falling of a tree would have more.

My mistake - 2,593. But please tell me why that is important, or pertinent to this discussion?

FixdePitchmark · 01-01-2015 6:00pm

First Up wrote: »

My mistake - 2,593. But please tell me why that is important, or pertinent to this discussion?

I don't think they do enough to promote the game.

In fact - I think they do nearly nothing.

If you look at the minority sports that have done well over last few years - Rugby , women's Rugby, tag rugby, cycling, Triathlon, Boxing, running, hurling in Dublin.

They have all done remarkably well at getting people to try the sport (young people in particular), they have got their sport on tv more. Got major events held here. Used their elite players to get onto tv etc.

My kids have been approached to play 5/6 sports . Never approached to play golf.

I just think golf has it all wrong. They need to get kids playing from outside the normal catchment.

It is another aspect of the debate. But without more players taking up game it is more trouble.

I could have it all wrong, but I'm around golf a bit. It has a ridiculously low profile of promotion imo.

sydneybound · 01-01-2015 6:10pm

Some great points there Fix. Outside of holding top ameteur events I struggle to think what the GUI actually do but it's nowhere near enough.

BenEadir · 01-01-2015 6:20pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I don't think they do enough to promote the game.

In fact - I think they do nearly nothing.

If you look at the minority sports that have done well over last few years - Rugby , woman's Rugby, tag rugby, cycling, Triathlon, Boxing, running, hurling in Dublin.

They have all done remarkably well at getting people to try the sport (young people in particular), they have got their sport on tv more. Got major events held here. Used their elite players to get onto tv etc.

My kids have been approached to play 5/6 sports . Never approached to play golf.

I just think golf has it all wrong. They need to get kids playing from outside the normal catchment.

It is another aspect of the debate. But without more players taking up game it is more trouble.

I could have it all wrong, but I'm around golf a bit. It has a ridiculously low profile of promotion imo.

^^^^ 100%

I'm involved with a GAA club in South Dublin and we target each and every primary school in our catchment area to promote both football and hurling (girls and boys) because we know we're competing for their (more correctly their parents) limited leisure time and leisure €'s against rugby, soccer, hockey and if they aren't playing and loving our games by the age of 6-7 we've probably lost them forever to another sport.

In my own golf club I see no such promotional activity. Sure there is a handful of dedicated juniors who practice and play regularly but it's more than likely becuase their parents play and have introduced them to the game but the problem with that as a developmental strategy is that by definition the pool of players will rapidly decline. To survive and prosper golf needs to be actively promoted and made accessible to all young children in the clubs catchment area which for somewhere like Ballinasloe might be a 15 mile radius but in South Dublin/Wicklow might be a 5 mile radius.

Your example of Hurling in Dublin is very relevant. The GAA pumped money into paying for development officers and kit which meant the game was introduced to as many kids as possible and they could start playing at nursery level without investing in either hurls or helmets as they were/are available whilst kids try out the game.

It looks like the GUI is leaving it up to individual clubs to promote the game locally but that's not viable. Most clubs can only afford to incur costs which are absolutely necessary and can't afford to spend e.g. €5,000 on kid centric kit and training aids + someone to visit schools to promote the game and then commit resources to hosting training for kids etc.

Can/will the GUI make an investment like the GAA did for Hurling in Dublin? Probably not.

First Up · 01-01-2015 6:27pm

BenEadir wrote: »

^^^^ 100%

I'm involved with a GAA club in South Dublin and we target each and every primary school in our catchment area to promote both football and hurling (girls and boys) because we know we're competing for their (more correctly their parents) limited leisure time and leisure €'s against rugby, soccer, hockey and if they aren't playing and loving our games by the age of 6-7 we've probably lost them forever to another sport.

In my own golf club I see no such promotional activity. Sure there is a handful of dedicated juniors who practice and play regularly but it's more than likely becuase their parents play and have introduced them to the game but the problem with that as a developmental strategy is that by definition the pool of players will rapidly decline. To survive and prosper golf needs to be actively promoted and made accessible to all young children in the clubs catchment area which for somewhere like Ballinasloe might be a 15 mile radius but in South Dublin/Wicklow might be a 5 mile radius.

Your example of Hurling in Dublin is very relevant. The GAA pumped money into paying for development officers and kit which meant the game was introduced to as many kids as possible and they could start playing at nursery level without investing in either hurls or helmets as they were/are available whilst kids try out the game.

It looks like the GUI is leaving it up to individual clubs to promote the game locally but that's not viable. Most clubs can only afford to incur costs which are absolutely necessary and can't afford to spend e.g. €5,000 on kid centric kit and training aids + someone to visit schools to promote the game and then commit resources to hosting training for kids etc.

Can/will the GUI make an investment like the GAA did for Hurling in Dublin? Probably not.

And how is the GUI going to fund all this?

FixdePitchmark · 01-01-2015 6:32pm

Look golf is not going to be like some of the other sports , it just doesn't have that team fun environment required for young kids.
We are not even targeting adults but.

Even look at Triathlon Ireland - a far more expensive sport and the participation by the age profile, golf needs.
Over 7000 likes

Tag Rugby Over 7000 likes
Friends of Dublin hurling 6000 likes
Swim Ireland 3800 likes
Irish Amateur Boxing 6439 Likes
Canoeing Ireland 3378 likes

I know Facebook likes are a rubbish stat - but an interesting little insight to the level of activity that the other sports have generated.

I just think Golf should be miles ahead of some of the sports above - we have the world number 1 from the same Union.

BenEadir · 01-01-2015 6:39pm

First Up wrote: »

And how is the GUI going to fund all this?

From the subs it receives. If it has to increase the subs or create a temporary (e.g. 5 year) development levy then so be it. If it doesn't promote the game people leaving (through death, illness, age and/or affordability) will exceed joiners and the game will decline which in turn will reduce the total pool of fees available to the GUI to promote and manage the game and the cycle of decline will continue.

The GUI simply has no choice but to invest in promoting the game. If it keeps it's head in the sand it will oversee a huge decline in the game which no one will thank them for.

FixdePitchmark · 01-01-2015 6:51pm

BenEadir wrote: »

From the subs it receives. If it has to increase the subs or create a temporary (e.g. 5 year) development levy then so be it. If it doesn't promote the game people leaving (through death, illness, age and/or affordability) will exceed joiners and the game will decline which in turn will reduce the total pool of fees available to the GUI to promote and manage the game and the cycle of decline will continue.

The GUI simply has no choice but to invest in promoting the game. If it keeps it's head in the sand it will oversee a huge decline in the game which no one will thank them for.

But, I would also argue , it is our role to promote the game. This will involve a voluntary aspect. All above sports have that. In fairness, the game of golf is run by existing volunteerism.

But, getting a distance membership and running around the country playing opens - is not realistically going to be a great way to introduce people to the game. It isn't really giving anything back to the game ? Is it ?

In reality - the burden of this promotion will be by the GUI , but at local golf courses.

Whilst the distance option is an option for people within the game to stay within the game in a cheap way. It is not a model that will facilitate entry to the game (IMO) - that is just an aside.

I'd rather the promotional aspect was talked a bit more about by GUI and here - than the distance issue.

I agree with a few others and fell in the trap myself , the distance issue is real - Nero Fiddled While Rome Burned.

Russman · 01-01-2015 6:52pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Look golf is not going to be like some of the other sports , it just doesn't have that team fun environment required for young kids.
We are not even targeting adults but.

But even look at Triathlon Ireland - a far more expensive sport and the participation by the age profile golf needs.
Over 7000 likes

Tag Rugby Over 7000 likes
Friends of Dublin hurling 6000 likes
Swim Ireland 3800 likes
Irish Amateur Boxing 6439 Likes
Canoeing Ireland 3378 likes

I know Facebook likes are a rubbish stat - but an interesting little insight to the level of activity that the other sports have generated.

I just think Golf should be miles ahead of some of the sports above - we have the world number 1 from same union.

Absolutely. I was lucky enough to play a bit of golf on a few courses in Sweden a few years ago, and the number of juniors playing was incredible. All wearing their multi coloured J Lindberg and Peak Performance gear too ! Interestingly enough the boys and girls all played and practiced together and there seemed to be a much more inclusive vibe about the whole thing. I know the GUI do a good job in a lot of areas, but I think they could look also at other unions who have maybe a more "modern" outlook on things.
Golf in Ireland still suffers from stereotyping IMHO, the whole "dinner jacket and tie" thing, and I suspect a lot of parents who don't play golf wouldn't even consider it a sport for their children because of preconceived notions about clubs. With Rory's enthusiasm for kids charities etc, I'm sure he (and Nike) could be persuaded to be part of a campaign to increase the numbers taking up the sport, especially with the Olympics not a million miles away.

I know the gui ran an initiative a few years ago, can't remember the name of it, but the idea was for local juniors to be allowed to join local clubs regardless of whether their father was a member, I'd love to know how successful or not it actually was.

First Up · 01-01-2015 6:55pm

BenEadir wrote: »

From the subs it receives. If it has to increase the subs or create a temporary (e.g. 5 year) development levy then so be it. If it doesn't promote the game people leaving (through death, illness, age and/or affordability) will exceed joiners and the game will decline which in turn will reduce the total pool of fees available to the GUI to promote and manage the game and the cycle of decline will continue.

The GUI simply has no choice but to invest in promoting the game. If it keeps it's head in the sand it will oversee a huge decline in the game which no one will thank them for.

So the GUI levy is increased, thereby increasing membership subscriptions, which the visionaries here will denounce as another example of how the game is becoming even more elitist and thereby justifying more distance membership scams which are facilitated by the cards issued by the same GUI.......

Golf is and always will be as strong as its clubs and its clubs are as strong as their members. There simply isn't any way around that.

Russman · 01-01-2015 6:59pm

First Up wrote: »

So the GUI levy is increased, thereby increasing membership subscriptions, which the visionaries here will denounce as another example of how the game is becoming even more elitist and thereby justifying more distance membership scams which are facilitated by the cards issued by the same GUI.......

Golf is and always will be as strong as its clubs and its clubs are as strong as their members. There simply isn't any way around that.

Not necessarily, I'm all for the gui promoting and helping our elite players, but maybe they should consider is it worth, say, once in a while, not sending a few players to an amateur open on the other side of the world, and putting some of the money into a focused campaign to attract new players.....?

FixdePitchmark · 01-01-2015 7:01pm

Russman,

Your onto something with Rory - but Rory can only do so much . Taking on the Irish Open was brilliant , well timed and class p.r.
I remember seeing photos of all the kids in Sweden playing the game and it was so right.

It is time for a few tough questions ?

Is Irish Golf a bit selfish ?
Once our club and members are doing well that is all that maters.

Are Irish golfers a bit selfish ?
Is this a hangover from the Celtic Tiger. Once my golf is fine , I'm happy.

Are you willing to do something for the sport ?

Are the GUI out of touch ?

Are too many people too happy with the old way - the status quo ?

I know we can't answer above. But if some are true - we are seriously in trouble and need serious change.

BenEadir · 01-01-2015 7:01pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Look golf is not going to be like some of the other sports , it just doesn't have that team fun environment required for young kids.

I agree with you that kids don't view it as a "fun" activity. Even my own son can't be ar$ed spending even 2 hours playing 9 holes on anything like a regular basis. I got him lessons and junior membership in my own club and I'd say he played 3 times during the summer and that was because he felt obliged to do so. He simply found golf a chore compared to spending the same amount of time playing other sports or xBox or whatever. Rather than force him to play or emotionally blackmail him I simply asked him if he wanted me to renew his membership for this year and he said "No". He has a nice easy swing and hits it well so in time he may come back to the game but I honestly don't see that happening until he has stopped playing Hurling and Football and even then he may transition to running or cycling to remain aerobically active rather than golf. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't pick golf up until he is 30-35 which means I'll be in my 60's before he'll be driving me to golf, playing a round with me and buying me a steak and a pint afterwards

I do however think you have to give all kids a taste of golf early to make a good impression and plant the seed in their head that it's a game they can play and their local club is somewhere they will be made welcome.

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Even look at Triathlon Ireland - a far more expensive sport and the participation by the age profile, golf needs.

What's expensive about triathlon? Yes you need a bike (http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/vitus-bikes-razor-vr-road-bike-2014/rp-prod107023 similar cost to a set of entry level Irons + driver and woods) and some running and swimming kit + no annual subs. I'd say 5 years of entry/mid level triathlon training and event participation would cost a lot less than entry/mid level golf.

Russman · 01-01-2015 7:10pm

BenEadir wrote: »

I agree with you that kids don't view it as a "fun" activity. Even my own son can't be ar$ed spending even 2 hours playing 9 holes on anything like a regular basis. I got him lessons and junior membership in my own club and I'd say he played 3 times during the summer and that was because he felt obliged to do so. He simply found golf a chore compared to spending the same amount of time playing other sports or xBox or whatever. Rather than force him to play or emotionally blackmail him I simply asked him if he wanted me to renew his membership for this year and he said "No". He has a nice easy swing and hits it well so in time he may come back to the game but I honestly don't see that happening until he has stopped playing Hurling and Football and even then he may transition to running or cycling to remain aerobically active rather than golf. I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't pick golf up until he is 30-35 which means I'll be in my 60's before he'll be driving me to golf, playing a round with me and buying me a steak and a pint afterwards

I do however think you have to give all kids a taste of golf early to make a good impression and plant the seed in their head that it's a game they can play and their local club is somewhere they will be made welcome.

What's expensive about triathlon? Yes you need a bike (http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/ie/en/vitus-bikes-razor-vr-road-bike-2014/rp-prod107023 similar cost to a set of entry level Irons + driver and woods) and some running and swimming kit + no annual subs. I'd say 5 years of entry/mid level triathlon training and event participation would cost a lot less than entry/mid level golf.

Fair comment, but it kinda blows a hole in one of the theories that golf takes too long and that's why people are dropping off. I'd bet training for triathlon is much more time consuming than heading off for a few holes on a summer evening or playing a competition on a Saturday.
So, golf needs to be made more fun or more attractive to people. IMHO given the nature of the sport, the fun side of things can partially be provided by the club scene, inter club teams and matches, internal club match-plays, basically the camaraderie of being in a club. The nomad golfers miss out on this and lots of clubs don't appear to emphasise it, it's all about price, with their marketing nowadays.

FixdePitchmark · 01-01-2015 7:16pm

Triathlon - large initial lay out, but once you do it for a year or 2 , you will replace all that basic gear and spend double that.
Enrty fees expensive . (about 50 to 60 euro)
Travel costs expensive
Typically gym membership and swimming membership.
Coaching physio etc.

Actually similar enough to golf.

But - the point is other sports are attracting large numbers. Golf has other issues , as more complex to take up and start. But , a side note.

Russman · 01-01-2015 7:18pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Russman,

Your onto something with Rory - but Rory can only do so much . Taking on the Irish Open was brilliant , well timed and class p.r.
I remember seeing photos of all the kids in Sweden playing the game and it was so right.

It is time for a few tough questions ?

Is Irish Golf a bit selfish ?
Once our club and members are doing well that is all that maters.

Are Irish golfers a bit selfish ?
Is this a hangover from the Celtic Tiger. Once my golf is fine , I'm happy.

Are you willing to do something for the sport ?

Are the GUI out of touch ?

Are too many people too happy with the old way - the status quo ?

I know we can't answer above. But if some are true - we are seriously in trouble and need serious change.

Leaving aside the oversupply of courses, some are certainly true, no doubt about it. Not only will it take some serious outside the box thinking to solve it, it will take an awful lot for members of clubs to accept change, if it comes, down the line. I know in my own club, when we got rid of joining fees, 5/6 years ago, a number of members left because they didn't like the idea of guys coming in and just paying a sub for full rights. I can see their point, but I don't want a club to fail because of stubbornness either.

First Up · 01-01-2015 7:36pm

Russman wrote: »

Absolutely. I was lucky enough to play a bit of golf on a few courses in Sweden a few years ago, and the number of juniors playing was incredible. All wearing their multi coloured J Lindberg and Peak Performance gear too ! Interestingly enough the boys and girls all played and practiced together and there seemed to be a much more inclusive vibe about the whole thing. I know the GUI do a good job in a lot of areas, but I think they could look also at other unions who have maybe a more "modern" outlook on things.
Golf in Ireland still suffers from stereotyping IMHO, the whole "dinner jacket and tie" thing, and I suspect a lot of parents who don't play golf wouldn't even consider it a sport for their children because of preconceived notions about clubs. With Rory's enthusiasm for kids charities etc, I'm sure he (and Nike) could be persuaded to be part of a campaign to increase the numbers taking up the sport, especially with the Olympics not a million miles away.

I know the gui ran an initiative a few years ago, can't remember the name of it, but the idea was for local juniors to be allowed to join local clubs regardless of whether their father was a member, I'd love to know how successful or not it actually was.

As I understand it, junior golf in Sweden operates on the basis that a junior membership is easy but it doesn't automatically translate into adult membership. I know a number of clubs here doing the same, with or without GUI involvement.
It is a good way to promote the game at junior level and seems to work in Sweden which also has a high level of family and female golf activity. I suspect the nature of society has something to do with it as well but golf in Sweden ain't cheap and nothing in their model suggests that popularity has anything to do with price.

Kingswood Rover · 01-01-2015 9:17pm

First Up wrote: »

Yours is not the only club facing unfair competition from NAMA run operations. That doesn't make it any more legitimate for yours to flog cheap GUI cards and undermine others.

It was me who made the "brilliant" point (thanks) about older clubs having the skill sets to cope. It has nothing to do with elitism; clubs that require new members to buy a share (and with it a share of all the years of work and investment that made the place what it is) are simply reflecting the real cost of maintaining a good quality course and club. Golf is expensive to provide and not everyone can afford it. It isn't an entitlement as you seem to think.

Yes and the applicants will more than likely come from the higher earning strata/social groups of society. Golf is expensive to provide to the levels expected from members of these older established clubs but when people then give out about parasites joining lower quality clubs that flog cheap gui membership and possibly affecting their ability to fund their exclusive golf clubs i reach for the puke bucket.

BenEadir · 01-01-2015 9:24pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Triathlon - large initial lay out, but once you do it for a year or 2 , you will replace all that basic gear and spend double that.

So exactly the same as golf then. spend €700 on your first set of kit (clubs, bag, trolly, balls, gloves, cheap wet gear etc) then once you have the bug and start to "get serious" you upgrade everything

That's what happened to me and my pal's anyway.

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Enrty fees expensive . (about 50 to 60 euro)

Compared to the €1,200 + €200 I pay in subs and comp fees I'd say triathlon is cheap. You'd do a max of 10 events a year which is €500. €900 a year cheaper than my golf.

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Travel costs expensive

I play 40 rounds a year at my local club which is an 18km round trip. That's 720km a year getting to and from my golf club. Most guys I know do 6-8 triathlon's a year (I used to do a bit of running myself but never progressed to triathlons) and rarely travel more than an hour to one, there's quite a selection of events around Dublin and Leinster generally.

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Typically gym membership and swimming membership.

I'm already a member of a gym. Playing golf and being a member of a gym are not mutually exclusive. A lot of people I know are members of both as golf won't keep you aerobically fit. If I swapped golf for triathlons I wouldn't incur additional gym fees.

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Coaching physio etc.

For running, swimming and cycling? No chance. Maybe a bit of physio if you tweak a muscle or whatever but honestly it would be an exception. Most guys, unless they are attempting to be elite athletes, just use well published online coaching guides and get tips from fellow participants on technique etc.

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Actually similar enough to golf.

Not really!!!

Kingswood Rover · 01-01-2015 9:27pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I don't think they do enough to promote the game.

In fact - I think they do nearly nothing.

If you look at the minority sports that have done well over last few years - Rugby , women's Rugby, tag rugby, cycling, Triathlon, Boxing, running, hurling in Dublin.

They have all done remarkably well at getting people to try the sport (young people in particular), they have got their sport on tv more. Got major events held here. Used their elite players to get onto tv etc.

My kids have been approached to play 5/6 sports . Never approached to play golf.

I just think golf has it all wrong. They need to get kids playing from outside the normal catchment.

It is another aspect of the debate. But without more players taking up game it is more trouble.

I could have it all wrong, but I'm around golf a bit. It has a ridiculously low profile of promotion imo.

Hit the nail on the head could not agree more

BenEadir · 01-01-2015 9:39pm

Russman wrote: »

Fair comment, but it kinda blows a hole in one of the theories that golf takes too long and that's why people are dropping off. I'd bet training for triathlon is much more time consuming than heading off for a few holes on a summer evening or playing a competition on a Saturday

Not true I'm afraid unless you're doing Iron man triathlons which are pretty elite. http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/triathlon-types-and-distances.html Most people do sprint or Olympic triathlons which will involve one hour swim training, two hour cycling training and one hours running max. One hour swimming and running training is spread out over the week with cycling at weekends or evenings during the summer.

Even with a 12 minute drive to my golf club if I'm playing a comp on a Saturday at 10:30am I'll leave the house at 9:30 so I'm there, parked, fee paid and clubs on the trolley etc for 10, then use the practice area to hit a few balls, spend 10 minutes on the practice green and be at the tee in good time to meet my playing partners before teeing off. The round will take 4 hours and it'll be 3pm before I'm home having put in the score card and packed up the clubs etc. That's 5 and a half hours best case!!

If I go for a two hour cycle (which I now do instead of running) my two hours training starts as soon as I leave my driveway and I'm home 5 seconds after the two hour spin is over.

The other advantage of training for a triathlon or just going running/cycling is you don't need to book it in advance and it's entirely within your own control. You can do it whenever you want at a moments notice.

Kingswood Rover · 01-01-2015 9:40pm

redhead999 wrote: »

Its the committee that is at the root of the problem, a pack of money grabbers

Really can you elaborate please. In another post you gave out about minor members being looked down on by full members yet in the same post you say they have ruined the club and that's why you are leaving. Forgive me i have just reached for a large pinch of salt. Money grabbers on the committee, dont remember that being brought up at the AGM.

First Up · 01-01-2015 9:46pm

Kingswood Rover wrote: »

Yes and the applicants will more than likely come from the higher earning strata/social groups of society. Golf is expensive to provide to the levels expected from members of these older established clubs but when people then give out about parasites joining lower quality clubs that flog cheap gui membership and possibly affecting their ability to fund their exclusive golf clubs i reach for the puke bucket.

Expensive does not necessarily mean exclusive but if the idea that people should pay a fair price for what they get makes you ill, your constitution is in as poor shape as your value system.

downthemiddle · 01-01-2015 9:54pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

There are so many posts now , links etc.

Could anyone summarize - if the GUI or anyone has good data on how many distance members there are.
Good debate and all that , but is it a valid issue at all for the future of golf ?

I'd love to see a %.

As i mentioned earlier - the type of member you are should be part of the info stored on card electronically (if not already?).

It would just make data collection and analysis of the golf market so much easier.

I'll be honest - I don't know of one distance member.

Looking at the figures you are talking about less than 2% of golf clubs offering the type of membership that some people seem to think is threatening the future of Irish golf. Looking at the membership figures in this clubs approximately 2.66 % of golfers registered with the GUI avail of this type of membership. This thread is not based on fact but rather the strong prejudice of a small number of posters.

BenEadir · 01-01-2015 9:57pm

downthemiddle wrote: »

Looking at the figures

Can you link to them so we can all look at them?

Anecdotally I have a pal who's a good golfer but doesn't have the time to play regularly. He's not stuck for cash but couldn't justify €1,200 a year to play maybe 5-10 times. He joined a country club as a distance member for 4200 or €250, something like that. Guess what? He didn't play it once in 2014 so didn't have a GUI card to play any opens whatsoever despite the fact I bugged him to get it so we could play a few opens together in my club. He basically donated €200 to the distance club without any cost to them other than a bit of admin. :-)

downthemiddle · 01-01-2015 10:00pm

redhead999 wrote: »

Its the committee that is at the root of the problem, a pack of money grabbers

A disgraceful, unwarranted and unfair attack on a hard working group of volunteers who have done so much for our club. Perhaps you would like to identify yourself in a PM and we can discuss your contribution to the club in comparison to that of the current committee that is if you really are a genuine member.

downthemiddle · 01-01-2015 10:13pm

BenEadir wrote: »

Can you link to them so we can all look at them?

Anecdotally I have a pal who's a good golfer but doesn't have the time to play regularly. He's not stuck for cash but couldn't justify €1,200 a year to play maybe 5-10 times. He joined a country club as a distance member for 4200 or €250, something like that. Guess what? He didn't play it once in 2014 so didn't have a GUI card to play any opens whatsoever despite the fact I bugged him to get it so we could play a few opens together in my club. He basically donated €200 to the distance club without any cost to them other than a bit of admin. :-)

Looking at the clubs named in the thread
Slievenamon
Scarke
Ring of Kerry
Blessington Lakes
Allowing for an equal number of other clubs that may offer similar membership you are looking at a maximum of 8 clubs out of 430 i.e. less than 2%.
There are 150,000 members registered with the GUI in the latest figures I can find. Allowing for 4,000 members in these clubs availing of these deals, a figure which is in all probability an exaggeration, you are looking at 2.66%.
If you consider that there are quite a number of these members who like your friend play little or no golf we are talking about a tiny number of golfers who are "abusing" the system.

Golf Memberships

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