Illegal Driver in club matchplay?

Golfnut77 · 05-07-2014 1:41pm #1

Wondering if ye can give me some advice.

Played yesterday in the club matchplay singles, the guy I played against was using an old Cobra driver the King Cobra 440 SZ Unlimited to be exact.

I had suspicions early on in the round, since I know that's one of the most notorious of the illegal drivers. He was 3 up thru 9 and after teeing off the 10th I asked if I could have a look at his driver, so I see that its the 440 SZ Unlimited and I tell him I'm almost certain that it is non conforming. This leads to an expletive filled rant, and how dare I accuse him of cheating. We finish out the match he won 2 & 1, no shaking hands, he storms off to the pro shop and goes off on another rant of how I called him a cheater etc.

I have contacted the competition secretary as I would imagine he is disqualified and I should be through to the next round or am I wrong? Still no reply from competition secretary.

Maybe I should have waited until after the round until I brought it up but can't change that now.

Am I in the wrong?

Woodgate · 05-07-2014 1:52pm

I wouldn't think you are in the wrong if you are 100% sure on the model of driver, as he should be DQ'd if it's an illegal club. How many comps & matchplays has this guy competed in or even won using an illegal club. You are totally right to report this, like I said earlier, once you're sure about the club.

Golfnut77 · 05-07-2014 1:54pm

100% sure. He's been using it for years no doubt, the worst thing is there's no way he's the only one at my club using a non conforming driver, there's loads of them I'd imagine.

As I said to him it's his obligation that his clubs conform to the rules of golf that were applicable to our match.

ForeRight · 05-07-2014 1:57pm

If you are certain it's illegal you should have asked about it the minute you had suspicions. I think waiting until you did and being 3 down was a mistake on your part even though you are probably correct.

If it's illegal it's illegal end of. The fact he went so bananas makes me think he already knows it himself.

Golfnut77 · 05-07-2014 2:12pm

ForeRight wrote: »

If you are certain it's illegal you should have asked about it the minute you had suspicions. I think waiting until you did and being 3 down was a mistake on your part even though you are probably correct.

If it's illegal it's illegal end of. The fact he went so bananas makes me think he already knows it himself.

Ya, I see what you mean but I didn't want to say anything until I was sure. I think the timing was partially the reason for his reaction as he probably felt I was trying to unsettle him with what he says is a "false allegation".

dar_cool · 05-07-2014 2:48pm

Fair play for bringing it up but probably bad timing. He should be disqualified, it's like carrying an extra club in the bag

ForeRight · 05-07-2014 4:26pm

Out of interest what was said in the club house about this when the bloke went in ranting and raving?

Golfnut77 · 05-07-2014 4:35pm

It was into the Pro Shop he went, I suggested we ask the Pro what the ruling would be so he went in but the Pro wasn't on it was a member of staff that would be friendly with the guy I played against so I didn't want to put that member of staff who isn't a golfer or familiar with the rules in the middle of this.

I just told him that I'll contact the competition secretary, sent him an email yesterday and suggested that I should play against the guy that he beat in the first round as I can only assume he was using the driver for that match too.

m r c · 05-07-2014 4:41pm

Illegal club, he's dq'd end of.

John Divney · 05-07-2014 5:14pm

The reaction seems like he knew it wasn't conforming, no reasonable person would go off on one like that if they didn't, they would be taken aback and say sorry, genuine mistake, DQ'd, or say fine, we'll check it out after the match.

Wombatman · 05-07-2014 5:37pm

Could easily turn into a he said\she said in which case I wouldn't fancy OPs chances. My bet is that he turns up with a Cobra 440 sz at enquiry, one that doesn't say 'unlimited'on it.

I would have gotten another club member as a witness before the guy left.

FixdePitchmark · 05-07-2014 5:44pm

Where can I get one of these drivers for Monday.

John Divney · 05-07-2014 5:46pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Where can I get one of these drivers for Monday.

If you stand around outside a clubhouse for long enough you will be offered a non-conforming Driver. Country has gone to the dogs...

Wombatman · 05-07-2014 5:47pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

Where can I get one of these drivers for Monday.

http://www.donedeal.ie/golf-for-sale/king-cobra-driver-for-sale/7181674

SaveOurLyric · 05-07-2014 5:57pm

Technically correct but who'd want to win a match like that ?
Golf is a game of rules certainly, but it is also a game of spirit and good sportsmanship.
Have you never knowingly turned a blind eye to someone who is breaking a rule?
I sure have and will continue to

John Divney · 05-07-2014 6:03pm

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Technically correct but who'd want to win a match like that ?
Golf is a game of rules certainly, but it is also a game of spirit and good sportsmanship.
Have you never knowingly turned a blind eye to someone who is breaking a rule?
I sure have and will continue to

Yes integrity too, if he didn't know it was banned, he should have behaved a bit better than to run off going ape, the OP should defo follow up. I doubt he wants to be in such an awkward position.

15 clubs is a mistake an unfortunate, this is way more sinister

FixdePitchmark · 05-07-2014 6:06pm

I know this will go down a bomb.

I wouldn't have said it to him during game , and may have let it go. It realistically had no impact on game. I honestly could see somebody having that driver and not know.
If I was bringing it up, I would have after , joked about it and give him friendly advice. To check out driver.

John Divney · 05-07-2014 6:18pm

What were his irons out of interst? Newer gear and an old trampolene of a Driver would be a bit suspect. But I wouldn't have known, couldn't name one banned driver, people just don't play with them in this era of new Drivers out every two weeks.

Wombatman · 05-07-2014 6:21pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

I know this will go down a bomb.

I wouldn't have said it to him during game , and may have let it go. It realistically had no impact on game. I honestly could see somebody having that driver and not know.
If I was bringing it up, I would have after , joked about it and give him friendly advice. To check out driver.

No impact on the game. Lol. Maybe they were banned for having no impact on the game.

Would have offered him a reply at another date if I felt it was a genuine mistake and the guy hadn't behaved like a cnut.

Golfnut77 · 05-07-2014 6:29pm

SaveOurLyric wrote: »

Technically correct but who'd want to win a match like that ?
Golf is a game of rules certainly, but it is also a game of spirit and good sportsmanship.
Have you never knowingly turned a blind eye to someone who is breaking a rule?
I sure have and will continue to

I agree, the driver didnt make much of a difference it's not like he was 100 yards ahead of me. His short game was the difference but the fact remains he used an illegal club and should be dq'd.

I have offered to play the guy that he beat in the 1st round, I think that's fair.

Golfnut77 · 05-07-2014 6:30pm

John Divney wrote: »

What were his irons out of interst? Newer gear and an old trampolene of a Driver would be a bit suspect. But I wouldn't have known, couldn't name one banned driver, people just don't play with them in this era of new Drivers out every two weeks.

They were Titleist DCI I believe.

FixdePitchmark · 05-07-2014 6:36pm

Wombatman wrote: »

No impact on the game. Lol. Maybe they were banned for having no impact on the game.

Would have offered him a reply at another date if I felt it was a genuine mistake and the guy hadn't behaved like a cnut.

How would it impact on game. Why lol.
I'd say it could impact on maybe 1/100 games and only small chance it would have an impact in match play.

Maybe op can say if this had impact on match ?

You would want to be 100 % sure it was intentional. And even catching him was a big enough victory.

You could follow up and make sure he is not using it again.

Asking to look at some bodies equipment mid competition is an unusual act.

Sure lads nearly have a heart attack if you mention a score.

Golfnut77 · 05-07-2014 6:55pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

How would it impact on game. Why lol.
I'd say it could impact on maybe 1/100 games and only small chance it would have an impact in match play.

Maybe op can say if this had impact on match ?

You would want to be 100 % sure it was intentional. And even catching him was a big enough victory.

You could follow up and make sure he is not using it again.

Asking to look at some bodies equipment mid competition is an unusual act.

Sure lads nearly have a heart attack if you mention a score.

Didn't impact the match at all, his short game was the difference but that's irrelevant. He used an illegal club and should be DQd.

Russman · 05-07-2014 7:10pm

Golfnut77 wrote: »

Didn't impact the match at all, his short game was the difference but that's irrelevant. He used an illegal club and should be DQd.

You're 100% correct within the rules. but I'm with FixdP on this, personally I would have let it slide, I wouldn't want to win a match this way, especially if it was against a member of the same club as me. Maybe that's just me though.

About 15/20 years ago a guy in my club called someone up on a 15th club inadvertently in the bag (kids cut down putter or something), and, while he was totally correct, to this day he's still thought of as a bo11ix. Rules are rules but within a club there's unfortunately, at times, a bigger picture to think of.

Macker1 · 05-07-2014 7:15pm

Rules are Rules and if we begin to choose which ones to follow and others to disregard it will become an even bigger minefield out there. A few years back before I got seriously back into golf I had a Big Berth Driver which I had bought off Ebay. I think the model was a Big Bertha 11 pro series which was a smashing club that I hit very well. The only issue was that on the hosel it clearly stated in print that after 2008 or something back then in was non-conforming. I knew that when I joined a club and got my GUI Handicap that I was no longer going to be able to use that driver. I could have and most likely have never been called on it. But I would be gutted to win a match or competition and then be pulled up on it. Non-conforming clubs are not allowed for a reason and all players need to ensure that they do not breech this rule. As someone earlier said they may well be players unknowingly out there with an illegal club but that isn't a defense when pulled up. The offending player should gracefully accept the disqualification and learn from the mistake. If the player knowingly played with the club then they are just as bad as the hcap bandits that ruin the game for the majority.

Golfnut77 · 05-07-2014 7:15pm

Russman wrote: »

You're 100% correct within the rules. but I'm with FixdP on this, personally I would have let it slide, I wouldn't want to win a match this way, especially if it was against a member of the same club as me. Maybe that's just me though.

About 15/20 years ago a guy in my club called someone up on a 15th club inadvertently in the bag (kids cut down putter or something), and, while he was totally correct, to this day he's still thought of as a bo11ix. Rules are rules but within a club there's unfortunately, at times, a bigger picture to think of.

Ya I wouldn't want to go through to the next round on a default that's why I offered to play the guy that he beat in the 1st round.

Really? I just think it's better to call him on it now, if I let it slide then he could potentially go on and win it, he more than likely wasn't aware that it was non conforming (although he should have been) but at least now he is even if he denies it.

Russman · 05-07-2014 7:27pm

Golfnut77 wrote: »

Ya I wouldn't want to go through to the next round on a default that's why I offered to play the guy that he beat in the 1st round.

Really? I just think it's better to call him on it now, if I let it slide then he could potentially go on and win it, he more than likely wasn't aware that it was non conforming (although he should have been) but at least now he is even if he denies it.

That's fair enough, but personally if I had to potentially see a guy in the club every weekend for the next 10, 20, 30 years, I wouldn't have said anything, and pretty much taken the view of "so what if goes on and wins it". Moral high ground and being correct is well and good, but people are strange when it comes to certain things and how they're perceived. As I said, maybe that's just me. To be perfectly honest, fellow club member or not, I wouldn't call someone on something like that. If they beat me with their golf, they beat me. Certainly I might have a quiet word after the game just to inform them.

Golfnut77 · 05-07-2014 7:34pm

Russman wrote: »

That's fair enough, but personally if I had to potentially see a guy in the club every weekend for the next 10, 20, 30 years, I wouldn't have said anything, and pretty much taken the view of "so what if goes on and wins it". Moral high ground and being correct is well and good, but people are strange when it comes to certain things and how they're perceived. As I said, maybe that's just me. To be perfectly honest, fellow club member or not, I wouldn't call someone on something like that. If they beat me with their golf, they beat me. Certainly I might have a quiet word after the game just to inform them.

I'd rather have the integrity to uphold the rules of the game as much as I can, if that alienates me from a pretentious so and so at my club who thinks he's above it all then so be it. It's not like I confronted him and accused him of cheating I just said 'look I'm almost certain that this is an illegal club', it probably would have been best if I waited until after the round but what's done is done, his reaction made it worse, if he believes it's not an illegal club then fair enough we can look it up afterwards but to go off on me like that was uncalled for.

ForeRight · 05-07-2014 7:40pm

For the lads saying they wouldn't say anything to the guy using the illegal driver I'd ask what they would do next year if they played a club matchplay and on the first green the guy pulls out a long anchored putter?

John Divney · 05-07-2014 7:47pm

Golfnut77 wrote: »

They were Titleist DCI I believe.

Older than the Driver then or likely same era. Maybe he's just the type to lose the head.

Russman · 05-07-2014 7:48pm

ForeRight wrote: »

For the lads saying they wouldn't say anything to the guy using the illegal driver I'd ask what they would do next year if they played a club matchplay and on the first green the guy pulls out a long anchored putter?

I'd wait and see if he anchored it when getting ready to use it, and if he did, I'd tell him before he actually hit a shot with it. I wouldn't wait til the 10th. No putter has been made illegal, it's the type of stroke that has been ruled on.

Russman · 05-07-2014 7:51pm

Golfnut77 wrote: »

I'd rather have the integrity to uphold the rules of the game as much as I can, if that alienates me from a pretentious so and so at my club who thinks he's above it all then so be it. It's not like I confronted him and accused him of cheating I just said 'look I'm almost certain that this is an illegal club', it probably would have been best if I waited until after the round but what's done is done, his reaction made it worse, if he believes it's not an illegal club then fair enough we can look it up afterwards but to go off on me like that was uncalled for.

No doubt his reaction was 100% wrong and it would have been much better if he'd had the good grace to say "fair enough, I didn't know etc" and concede the hole, match, whatever. You absolutely did nothing wrong, but it's not something I would have done.

Golfnut77 · 05-07-2014 7:54pm

Russman wrote: »

I'd wait and see if he anchored it when getting ready to use it, and if he did, I'd tell him before he actually hit a shot with it. I wouldn't wait til the 10th. No putter has been made illegal, it's the type of stroke that has been ruled on.

I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect that anyone playing in a competition is using equipment that is within the rules of golf. It was only a few holes in that I was suspicious due to the sound of impact on his drives, then I noticed the Cobra headcover, the next tee that he hit driver on was the 10th so walking off the tee I asked to see it and noticed it was the illegal version.

Golfers are responsible for their own equipment, if you buy a driver new or 2nd hand it's up to you to ensure it conforms to the rules of golf, I'm shocked that you wouldn't pull someone up on it although I'm sure you're not the only one. What's the point in having the rules if no one follows them? Would you pull a guy up if he kicks his ball on to the fairway? I hope you would.

ForeRight · 05-07-2014 7:56pm

Russman wrote: »

I'd wait and see if he anchored it when getting ready to use it, and if he did, I'd tell him before he actually hit a shot with it. I wouldn't wait til the 10th. No putter has been made illegal, it's the type of stroke that has been ruled on.

Which I why I said long "anchored" putter not just long putter. Of course I was implying he was using the club illegally.

Either way I can't see a difference in pulling someone over an illegal driver.

I did say at the start the op went about this in slightly the wrong way but was right to pull him anyway.

Russman · 05-07-2014 8:01pm

ForeRight wrote: »

Which I why I said long "anchored" putter not just long putter. Of course I was implying he was using the club illegally.

Either way I can't see a difference in pulling someone over an illegal driver.

I did say at the start the op went about this in slightly the wrong way but was right to pull him anyway.

Fair enough, I agree he was correct, it's just not something I would do on the course.

Russman · 05-07-2014 8:12pm

Golfnut77 wrote: »

I think it's perfectly reasonable to expect that anyone playing in a competition is using equipment that is within the rules of golf. It was only a few holes in that I was suspicious due to the sound of impact on his drives, then I noticed the Cobra headcover, the next tee that he hit driver on was the 10th so walking off the tee I asked to see it and noticed it was the illegal version.

Golfers are responsible for their own equipment, if you buy a driver new or 2nd hand it's up to you to ensure it conforms to the rules of golf, I'm shocked that you wouldn't pull someone up on it although I'm sure you're not the only one. What's the point in having the rules if no one follows them? Would you pull a guy up if he kicks his ball on to the fairway? I hope you would.

Do you check the list of conforming clubs every time you make a purchase ?

Look, I'm not disagreeing with what you did, in no way were you incorrect. Lots of guys wouldn't want to win a match that way or cause hassle in a match like that.

Of course I'd call someone on kicking their ball, I hardly ever kick mine unless its lying really badly ! :eek:FFS ! And yes, I know both are rule breaches and we don't get to decide what rules we follow etc etc etc. I couldn't be ar$ed looking it up, but I think it was mentioned in a thread yesterday that a player doesn't have to call a breach by his opponent if the opponent is unaware of it, or if there is no agreement to do it (something like that anyway) rule 2-5 or something I think.

SaveOurLyric · 05-07-2014 8:28pm

ForeRight wrote: »

For the lads saying they wouldn't say anything to the guy using the illegal driver I'd ask what they would do next year if they played a club matchplay and on the first green the guy pulls out a long anchored putter?

Nothing. The following year though, I would be looking closely at how he uses it. If illegally then I would call him on it.

Golfnut77 · 05-07-2014 8:55pm

Russman wrote: »

Do you check the list of conforming clubs every time you make a purchase ?

Of course I do, if I was just a club golfer that plays a few holes at night then I wouldn't care but I play in competitions and non conforming clubs are not allowed, when the grooves rule for irons comes in for amateurs I'll be changing my irons too and all golfers that play in competitions should do the same, if not then don't play competitions.

FixdePitchmark · 05-07-2014 9:34pm

Golfnut77 wrote: »

Of course I do, if I was just a club golfer that plays a few holes at night then I wouldn't care but I play in competitions and non conforming clubs are not allowed, when the grooves rule for irons comes in for amateurs I'll be changing my irons too and all golfers that play in competitions should do the same, if not then don't play competitions.

It is an interesting one. Well done even knowing.

I don't think it is reasonable for most amateurs to keep track of all this.
In fact - I'd place blame with Golf companies and R&A that a leading company could end up with something on the shelf illegal.

Anyway - you were right, but the situation could have ended in the different way (as you say)

Interesting that he went mental so quick - any history , was there bad form in match ?

emo72 · 05-07-2014 9:40pm

lads i dont play golf, but i always believed that the rules are most important, and thats whats great about the sport. integrity is the most important thing and if you have broke the rules you disqualify yourself. i wouldn't believe that this is even up for debate

top players have even lost tournaments for signing the wrong scorecards or having an extra club in the bag.

Golfnut77 · 05-07-2014 9:41pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

It is an interesting one. Well done even knowing.

I don't think it is reasonable for most amateurs to keep track of all this.
In fact - I'd place blame with Golf companies and R&A that a leading company could end up with something on the shelf illegal.

Anyway - you were right, but the situation could have ended in the different way (as you say)

Interesting that he went mental so quick - any history , was there bad form in match ?

Well the club wasn't made illegal it was the rule that came in 2006 or around then that made certain clubs with the 'spring effect' illegal, I imagine he had bought it prior to that and has used it since then even through the rule change so effectively he has been breaking the rule for years.

They have a website where one can search and see if their driver conforms or not, it's a strange rule really since drivers these days go even further without the 'spring effect' but it's in the rules.

No history at all, only knew him to see around the club. I wasn't looking forward to it though as I had been told he was very arrogant but I found him very polite and courteous, good etiquette and all the rest, gave each other a few putts early on just to set the mood. I can understand his reaction to some extent if he felt I was trying to get in his head since I was down in the match but as I said if he believed it was conforming he could have said lets check it out afterwards the fact he went nuts makes me think he probably knows it's non conforming and was just shocked that I called him on it.

Golfnut77 · 05-07-2014 9:43pm

emo72 wrote: »

lads i dont play golf, but i always believed that the rules are most important, and thats whats great about the sport. integrity is the most important thing and if you have broke the rules you disqualify yourself. i wouldn't believe that this is even up for debate

top players have even lost tournaments for signing the wrong scorecards or having an extra club in the bag.

Completely agree, even Charles Howell this year was DQd after a round when a component of his SLDR driver came off on the range, the Taylormade guys said it was fine, the Tour deemed it non conforming and he was DQd. there's some odd rules in golf but if you don't want to play by them then don't play in a competition.

Guffy · 05-07-2014 9:49pm

Ah golf

FixdePitchmark · 05-07-2014 10:00pm

If he was that sound up to that point - I believe that gives even more grounds - that the issue could have been dealt with at the end. And in an amicable way.

Funny one.

People can be so black and white in golf. But life - is a little more complex and grey. As somebody else said - is it worth causing conflict in a club and the rest of your days - for the sake of a not very important match ?

If we play a game that is based on honesty and integrity - we have to then apply that assumption to everybody. In fact if the guy was sound , after a friendly chat - he would have been given the opportunity to dq himself.

On a side note.

I've noticed on the forum here - and on the course , that golfers can all have their own ideas and ideals and morals and attitudes to etiquette and slow play and walking on a line and handing in cards and clothes people wear and where they stand and talk of score or talking at all or moving or marking cards or etc etc.

I'd almost be fearful of playing club golf at all. Is anybody actually perfect.

Rikand · 05-07-2014 10:02pm

If pulling someone for using an illegal driver in Amateur competition is what it takes you to win....

FixdePitchmark · 05-07-2014 10:04pm

Rikand wrote: »

If pulling someone for using an illegal driver in Amateur competition is what it takes you to win....

?

That can be looked at in a few ways.

explain.

Slicemeister · 05-07-2014 10:07pm

Would you have rescheduled a rematch if he had not acted the bollix?

Rikand · 05-07-2014 10:08pm

Actually, I've changed my mind when I re-read that he went on an expletive filled rant and wouldnt even shake your hand afterwards.

Screw him.

SaveOurLyric · 05-07-2014 10:08pm

Rikand wrote: »

If pulling someone for using an illegal driver in Amateur competition is what it takes you to win....

To be fair I dont think anyone is justifying pulling someone on a rules infringement in order to win. As if they are unreasonably ruthless amoral human beings.
But those in favour of it, are advocating doing so because being the rule, it is the right thing to do.

SaveOurLyric · 05-07-2014 10:09pm

Slicemeister wrote: »

Would you have rescheduled a rematch if he had not acted the bollix?

You cannot do that. It would be disqualification for both players if they decided to do so.

Golfnut77 · 05-07-2014 10:09pm

FixdePitchmark wrote: »

If he was that sound up to that point - I believe that gives even more grounds - that the issue could have been dealt with at the end. And in an amicable way.

Funny one.

People can be so black and white in golf. But life - is a little more complex and grey. As somebody else said - is it worth causing conflict in a club and the rest of your days - for the sake of a not very important match ?

If we play a game that is based on honesty and integrity - we have to then apply that assumption to everybody. In fact if the guy was sound , after a friendly chat - he would have been given the opportunity to dq himself.

On a side note.

I've noticed on the forum here - and on the course , that golfers can all have their own ideas and ideals and morals and attitudes to etiquette and slow play and walking on a line and handing in cards and clothes people wear and where they stand and talk of score or talking at all or moving or marking cards or etc etc.

I'd almost be fearful of playing club golf at all. Is anybody actually perfect.

In hindsight I should have left it until the end although I doubt I'd have gotten a better reaction.

I'd rather call someone on it than sit back knowing they're breaking the rules, I've no doubt that countless others at my club and clubs all over the country break the rules all the time not just with equipment but blatant cheating. I'm shocked that the majority on this thread would say nothing, that's part of the problem, when you're playing with someone else you have an obligation to the integrity of the game and others that are playing in the competition to call your playing partner on any rules infringements if they don't call themselves.

Illegal Driver in club matchplay?

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