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Own a house in Ireland and not paid NPPR?.. warning.

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13

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    #62
    sin_city
    Registered Users Posts: 899 ✭✭✭sin_city


    ArseBurger wrote: »
    Can you translate that into English please?

    You must have got one of those worthless degrees too


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    #63
    Ogham
    Registered Users Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Ogham


    pips25 wrote: »
    You are fine if you are just renting in London. The council are going after people that own 2 property's. I am trying to figure this out myself regarding how the council chase after people. If you read the rest of the post's on this site you will see that someone commented that the council are just sitting there rubbing their hands waiting for all of this late fee money to come rolling in., never a true word.

    The councils seem to be going for anyone who paid the Household Charge or LPT on a property - but where thay have a different contact address on with Revenue. Some of these will be errors.


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    #64
    Sam Kade
    Registered Users Posts: 12,313 ✭✭✭✭Sam Kade


    I heard on the radio that the 7k charge will only stay on the house for 12 years, what happens after that? Doubles goes back to zero :confused:


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    #65
    Ogham
    Registered Users Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Ogham


    Sam Kade wrote: »
    I heard on the radio that the 7k charge will only stay on the house for 12 years, what happens after that? Doubles goes back to zero :confused:

    It just goes -(zero)


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    #66
    Sam Kade
    Registered Users Posts: 12,313 ✭✭✭✭Sam Kade


    Ogham wrote: »
    It just goes -(zero)
    Of course if you don't pay it it will be a black mark against you if you need a tax clearance cert. What about people that emigrated will they get away without paying it?


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    #67
    Ogham
    Registered Users Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Ogham


    The NPPR is nothing to do with Revenue - it is the duty of the local councils to collect it. So it should have no effect on tax clearance cert.
    The oustanding charges + penalties are no longer held against the property after 12 years - so the 2009 charge is cancelled in 2021 and the 2013 charge will be removed in 2025.

    Prosecution for NPPR non payment can only take place within 6 years from the date on which the offence concerned was committed.

    Councils haven't got the staff to go investigating individuals or taking cases to court.


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    #68
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 0 ✭ [Deleted User]


    Zambia-

    Not questioning the Mod warning but I do think that in a thread dealing with tax liabilities and probable hefty repercussions it isn't great form to only hop in once Long_Gone has irritated other posters with his/her blind ignorance and bluster over what is a fairly clear issue.

    I know that anyone looking to boards.ie for legal info ought to be more careful and seek official and professional advice but at the same time a poster advising people in these matters should be regulated in some way or fashion if they either don't know what they're talking about or are advising other posters in bad faith as a method of rabble-rousing (like online Boyd-Barrett avatars)

    Almost everything Long_Gone has stated in the thread is completely incorrect- One of my previous career incarnations was in NPPR administration and, basically, if you take any or all of Long_Gone's statements and just do the exact opposite you should be ok as regards the NPPR charge.


    Bit late now for everyone, sorry I didn't see the thread until this morning.


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    #69
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    I'm no fan of property taxes but to be fair, hardly any country that doesn't have them. You'd be paying property or land rates on all property in Australia too.


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    #70
    MouseTail
    Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭MouseTail


    Ogham wrote: »
    The NPPR is nothing to do with Revenue - it is the duty of the local councils to collect it. So it should have no effect on tax clearance cert.
    The oustanding charges + penalties are no longer held against the property after 12 years - so the 2009 charge is cancelled in 2021 and the 2013 charge will be removed in 2025.

    Prosecution for NPPR non payment can only take place within 6 years from the date on which the offence concerned was committed.

    Councils haven't got the staff to go investigating individuals or taking cases to court.

    I thought it was the responsibility of the State Collections Agency?


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    #71
    Ogham
    Registered Users Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Ogham


    MouseTail wrote: »
    I thought it was the responsibility of the State Collections Agency?

    The local authorities have delegated the collection to The Local Government Management Services Board - (but they can't prosecute).
    The LGMA provides a "National Shared Service central Data Bureau on behalf of the Local Authority sector for the Household Charge, the Non Principle Private Residence (NPPR) charge and the Protect Our Water charge. "

    All communication about charges and penalties are supposed to go through the local councils.


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    #72
    Peregrinus
    Registered Users Posts: 26,100 ✭✭✭✭Peregrinus


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    I'm no fan of property taxes but to be fair, hardly any country that doesn't have them. You'd be paying property or land rates on all property in Australia too.
    Yes. And at a much higher rate than in Ireland. And with no exemption for a principal private residence.


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    #73
    mrsbyrne
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,228 ✭✭✭mrsbyrne


    I hope no posters reading this have taken long_gone advice. Absolute rubbish. Makes me wonder if he/she can actually Google or or if it's a troll.


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    #74
    aido79
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 5,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭aido79


    mrsbyrne wrote: »
    I hope no posters reading this have taken long_gone advice. Absolute rubbish. Makes me wonder if he/she can actually Google or or if it's a troll.

    Agreed. This is a much more reliable source of information :

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/owning_a_home/home_owners/new_local_authority_charges_on_residential_property.html

    What long gone is basically saying is that he doesn't agree with the tax and that he doesn't believe that he or anyone should pay it. Alot of the other stuff he talks about sound like the ramblings of a crazy person but thats a different matter. As other people have mentioned this tax is alot lower than property taxes in other countries such as Australia.


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    #75
    sin_city
    Registered Users Posts: 899 ✭✭✭sin_city


    aido79 wrote: »
    Agreed. This is a much more reliable source of information :

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/owning_a_home/home_owners/new_local_authority_charges_on_residential_property.html

    What long gone is basically saying is that he doesn't agree with the tax and that he doesn't believe that he or anyone should pay it. Alot of the other stuff he talks about sound like the ramblings of a crazy person but thats a different matter. As other people have mentioned this tax is alot lower than property taxes in other countries such as Australia.

    You'd get a ban for calling him a crazy person rambling in other forums.

    So what if the tax is lower than other places....its wrong.

    It's another kick in the guts to anyone struggling....by the way there's none in NZ


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    #76
    aido79
    Moderators, Regional Abroad Moderators Posts: 5,374 Mod ✭✭✭✭aido79


    sin_city wrote: »
    You'd get a ban for calling him a crazy person rambling in other forums.

    So what if the tax is lower than other places....its wrong.

    It's another kick in the guts to anyone struggling....by the way there's none in NZ

    I'm not saying I agree with the tax or the ridiculously excessive late fees piled on top of it but if people had've done the right thing and paid €200 a year then they wouldn't have this problem.


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    #77
    Questland
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭Questland


    For anybody thinking of challenging the excessive nature of the penalties for the NPPR google the UK case of Trinity Mirror v HMRC (sorry it wont let me post a link!) which might be of interest as in that case the UK Revenue were required to back down on the imposition of a penalty which was regarded as disproportionate. It is a principle of EU Law that penalties must be proportionate. Question is whether €20 a month would be regarded as disproportionate.


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    #78
    db
    Registered Users Posts: 1,078 ✭✭✭db


    As someone who has sold a house recently I can explain exactly how this works when it comes to selling. Everyone is liable to this tax unless you can prove you have an exemption and you will need to provide a certificate of exemption when it comes to disposing of the house. You are entitled to an exemption if the house was your principal private residence at all times between 2009 and 2013 and you will need to be able to prove this. I had to provide utility bills and bank statements covering a number of dates in each of the years and while I had a good bit of this documentation available, I had destroyed and lost some. The TV license proved very useful as proof of continuous residence.

    Even if you were living in the house throughout the period, it would be a good idea to get your documentation in place and apply for a certificate of exemption now because 5 or 10 years down the line you will still be liable for this tax if your haven't paid and it will be difficult to find old bills and statements.


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    #79
    Ogham
    Registered Users Posts: 1,844 ✭✭✭Ogham


    Questland wrote: »
    For anybody thinking of challenging the excessive nature of the penalties for the NPPR google the UK case of Trinity Mirror v HMRC (sorry it wont let me post a link!) which might be of interest as in that case the UK Revenue were required to back down on the imposition of a penalty which was regarded as disproportionate. It is a principle of EU Law that penalties must be proportionate. Question is whether €20 a month would be regarded as disproportionate.

    It's more than that - it was €20 a month until this weekend - then they just increased the whole amount by 50%. An initail charge of €1000 for the 5 years has now risen to €7320 - more that 7 times the original charge!

    http://www.moneyguideireland.com/penalties-of-e6320-to-be-charged-on-unpaid-nppr-of-e1000.html


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    #80
    Questland
    Registered Users Posts: 5 ✭Questland


    Ogham wrote: »
    It's more than that - it was €20 a month until this weekend - then they just increased the whole amount by 50%. An initail charge of €1000 for the 5 years has now risen to €7320 - more that 7 times the original charge!

    penalties-of-e6320-to-be-charged-on-unpaid-nppr-of-e1000.html[/url]

    Ha even better for those that want to argue it! Its been a while since I read that VAT case but I just remembered it when I saw how much they were looking for off people when compared with the initial liability amount.


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    #81
    Smellbourne
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭Smellbourne


    Just read through this whole post as I too was disgusted when I found out about the NPPR for the first time earlier this year. I feel it is an unjust tax, not in what it represented (a property tax prior to LPT), but purely in the way it as communicated to the population at large.
    Having followed up on it with the council when I first hear a few months ago to see if I was liable for the penalties as I had never heard of the NPPR before (Living abroad and renting the property) the details about how it was communicated we're sketchy to say the least. Basically if you we're living abroad and managing your rental property yourself you would not have heard about NPPR when it was brought in in 2009 as it was solely communicated through local media (radio and papers). So you would want to be an avid listener online to the Irish stations or religiously read the Irish papers online in the event something like this was introduced. There was no notification sent to people registered with the tenancies board PRBT or any other direct targeted communication with property owners at large at home or abroad. There was also the nickname coined for NPPR when it was first introduced as the 'Holiday Home Tax' which threw anyone who may have been fortunate to read about it but then figure “I only have one property and it’s not a holiday home”
    I have paid the retrospective ‘tax’ and got nailed for the penalties for something I feel we have been tricked into noncompliance. Thankfully I could afford to pay it before it got any worse but it was a significant bite out of my savings which has now cost me my trip home to see family this christmas and few other belt tightening issues. I really feel for those who do not have savings available and this comes as another kick when their down. I love Ireland and hope to be able to move back some day when work is available but this leaves me further disillusioned with the state of the government.

    Bit of a rant but I feel I needed to express my dismay


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    #82
    catbear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭catbear


    @Smellbourne
    Do you really expect the Irish taxpayer to fund advertisements in every media throughout the world to inform absentee landlords?


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    #83
    Smellbourne
    Registered Users Posts: 10 ✭Smellbourne


    It it costs nothing to send an email to all those registered on the PRBT? Even a letter drop to them would cost a couple of cents out of the money you pay to register a tenancy. Had we known we would have paid, simple. I still pay tax in Ireland so why should I not be informed of any changes required involving my asset.

    catbear; can you honestly say you believe it was well communicated in 2009?


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    #84
    Esel
    Registered Users Posts: 22,028 ✭✭✭✭Esel


    How many properties are involved here? How many owners who are in a position to vote?

    It does not affect me, but I think it is scandalous. A penalty of €20 per month is 120% per annum. I cannot see how that is fair or reasonable.

    Not your ornery onager



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    #85
    Ninap
    Registered Users Posts: 532 ✭✭✭Ninap


    db wrote: »
    As someone who has sold a house recently I can explain exactly how this works when it comes to selling. Everyone is liable to this tax unless you can prove you have an exemption and you will need to provide a certificate of exemption when it comes to disposing of the house. You are entitled to an exemption if the house was your principal private residence at all times between 2009 and 2013 and you will need to be able to prove this. I had to provide utility bills and bank statements covering a number of dates in each of the years and while I had a good bit of this documentation available, I had destroyed and lost some. The TV license proved very useful as proof of continuous residence.

    Even if you were living in the house throughout the period, it would be a good idea to get your documentation in place and apply for a certificate of exemption now because 5 or 10 years down the line you will still be liable for this tax if your haven't paid and it will be difficult to find old bills and
    statements.


    For what it's worth, liability for this tax will expire in 2023, so if selling a house after that date you won't need to prove occupancy for 2009/13


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    #86
    catbear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭catbear


    Smellbourne wrote: »
    It it costs nothing to send an email to all those registered on the PRBT? Even a letter drop to them would cost a couple of cents out of the money you pay to register a tenancy. Had we known we would have paid, simple. I still pay tax in Ireland so why should I not be informed of any changes required involving my asset.

    catbear; can you honestly say you believe it was well communicated in 2009?
    Fair enough, if they had a way of contacting those liable then fine. I rented through the bubble and ended up with increased taxes to pay for speculator debts so as you might appreciate I have little sympathy for landlords and even less for absentees.


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    #87
    mandrake04
    Registered Users Posts: 4,435 ✭✭✭mandrake04


    Ninap wrote: »
    For what it's worth, liability for this tax will expire in 2023, so if selling a house after that date you won't need to prove occupancy for 2009/13

    Which proves its a short term cash grab, why did Revenue fob it off to councils? Maybe I'm a sceptic but increase the councils revenue by giving them a free hand to collect scandalous penalties and then decrease their government budgets. A huge indirect government tax of which the government can simply blame on people (unknowingly) not paying a small tax.

    It's all very convenient, misleading people with 'second property' or 'holiday home' tax. I suppose they need the money to pay politicians pensions and bail out the bankers.

    It's seems the government is not there to serve the people, the people are there to serve the government.


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    #88
    catbear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭catbear


    mandrake04 wrote: »

    It's seems the government is not there to serve the people, the people are there to serve the government.
    From every election I've seen in Ireland the electorate is entirely to blame when the most common question heard is "what are you going to do for me?", followed closely by "what are you going to do for (insert town, electoral district, parish pump etc)?" and lastly by "will we get a minister from our area?".
    Combined that's a mandate to plunder and elections merely pick the favorites to go get the booty.
    Even the ones who were exposed as totally self serving get reelected because they were keeping with the voters mandate, hence Lowry.

    The electorate gets the government it desires.


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    #89
    MouseTail
    Registered Users Posts: 1,663 ✭✭✭MouseTail


    Smellbourne wrote: »
    It it costs nothing to send an email to all those registered on the PRBT? Even a letter drop to them would cost a couple of cents out of the money you pay to register a tenancy. Had we known we would have paid, simple. I still pay tax in Ireland so why should I not be informed of any changes required involving my asset.

    catbear; can you honestly say you believe it was well communicated in 2009?
    It was widely communicated and discussed. It is up to anyone who has property or assets here to be aware of their tax liabilities associated with it. No different to an investment anywhere in the world. And really, an hour a year checking up on your liabilities online would have ensured you weren't caught out by this.


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    #90
    catbear
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,092 ✭✭✭catbear


    MouseTail wrote: »
    It was widely communicated and discussed. It is up to anyone who has property or assets here to be aware of their tax liabilities associated with it. No different to an investment anywhere in the world. And really, an hour a year checking up on your liabilities online would have ensured you weren't caught out by this.
    It's amazing though how many landlords feel profit is their entitlement and that it isn't a 'business'.


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    #91
    giri
    Registered Users Posts: 9 ✭giri


    Hi, Yep Ive been stung for the 7000 euro charge. Long story, live abroad etc, etc. No idea it ever existed till today.

    My question is simply what if I just dont pay it? ever. The way I'm thinking is that I have no intention of selling it in the next 12 years anyway (already in so much negative equity, thats not possible anyway). What will they do to me in the meantime? will they just tag the 7000 dept to the property, which I dont care if they do or not, as I just wont sell it. I know I don't live in Ireland anyway and dont plan on coming back (just to visit), but what other implications are there for not paying? Can they try to prosecute me? what would that entail? Will there be even more damn penalties? I just cant pay it!

    Would really appreciate some help on this. Totally lost, shocked and out of ideas!


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