Own a house in Ireland and not paid NPPR?.. warning.

pips25 · 31-08-2014 10:51pm

wow i went online tonight to pay the 800 euro for the past few years and they dont give u the option. Nor do they give u the option to set up a account if u dont have a irish citizin pps number. So i ended up using my sisters pps number and still could not pay the 800 euro. hope my sis dont get in trouble. would wreck ur mind

mandrake04 · 01-09-2014 1:52am

pips25 wrote: »

You are fine if you are just renting in London. The council are going after people that own 2 property's.

I don't think that's true, they are also going after people who also own just one property and rent it out. Examples of people who own one property but are living (renting) in other counties, countries and continents. I already posted a link to Joe Duffy earlier in the thread but here they are here again.

https://vodhls.rasset.ie/manifest/audio/2014/0828/20140828_rteradio1-liveline-liveline_cl10316455_10318149_261_.m3u8

https://vodhls.rasset.ie/manifest/audio/2014/0826/20140826_rteradio1-liveline-liveline_cl10315727_10317701_261_.m3u8

The 2+ properties owners that you think they are going after is a red herring, same as 'Holiday Home' tax.

It's based on having a property that is not your main residence.

mandrake04 · 01-09-2014 2:25am

Further to my post above

If you refer to post #8

In summary, you paid the NPPR if:

You owned more than one home
You owned only one home and it was not your principal private residence (for example, your main residence was in rented accommodation)
You lived abroad and owned residential property in Ireland

Esel · 01-09-2014 3:26am

I remember reading how some m/billionaire avoided stamp duty because the house/(read mansion) did not have a kitchen when purchased. No kitchen, therefore not a house. There was a room that had previously been a kitchen, but everything had been ripped out before the contract was signed.

This strategy may have been appealed; not sure about the final verdict.

Back in the really bad old days, no roof meant no rates.

I would not be surprised at all to learn that this penal charge has been appealed and overturned at some future date.

If not, prepare to cough up to €7K+ at some future date or have it taken from the proceeds of sale. If they keep applying these penal charges to unpaid amounts going forward though, there will be sfa left.

sin_city · 01-09-2014 4:09am

Shakespeare's Sister wrote: »

What should people do to stop the government from screwing us (including yourself)?

I guess a point comes where people won't take it anymore and Ireland is not there yet.

This is the type of stuff that should get people involved in politics or protesting.

Is this constitutional? Fcuk the diaspora right?

I suppose it is fair…Bankers rob the country without any of them going to jail ….The mafia would be proud of this move.

The government are merely collecting payment on the bankers debts.

ArseBurger · 01-09-2014 4:51am

Long Gone wrote: »

"PPS Number" ? - Never had one of those. I had enough sense to get on a plane out of Ireland as soon as I left university.

Cool. So basically you took advantage of tax payers money to get an education and then bailed as soon as it was your turn to put back in? Noble.

sin_city · 01-09-2014 5:49am

ArseBurger wrote: »

Cool. So basically you took advantage of tax payers money to get an education and then bailed as soon as it was your turn to put back in? Noble.

You have more respect for people finishing a degree and going on the dole because they can't get work and don't want to leave home to search for it?

What world are you living in?

None of us had signed any contract regarding free college and none of us signed any contract regarding the bailout of the banks.....Whose to say if the government didn't make education free that there would be money better spent.

My brother just completed a 4 year degree in law and now is starting work as an assistant manager in Lidl.

All we know is that people are getting taxed big time back home and for what?

You owe Ireland nothing Long Gone. You should be commended for not burdening the taxpayers more by going on the dole for the mafia that are ripping off everyone back home to p!ss money away.

GerardKeating · 01-09-2014 6:39am

kd123 wrote: »

Thanks that's what I was thinking. All bills etc are still in my name in the irish house as I do consider it my principal residence. So what is the story with those who haven't paid, are the councils going to start chasing. Therefore if a person doesn't hear anything then happy days.... Right or wrong??

As long as you "lived" there every now and then and you never rented it out, you should be ok.

ArseBurger · 01-09-2014 7:21am

sin_city wrote: »

You have more respect for people finishing a degree and going on the dole because they can't get work and don't want to leave home to search for it?

What world are you living in?

None of us had signed any contract regarding free college and none of us signed any contract regarding the bailout of the banks.....Whose to say if the government didn't make education free that there would be money better spent.

My brother just completed a 4 year degree in law and now is starting work as an assistant manager in Lidl.

All we know is that people are getting taxed big time back home and for what?

You owe Ireland nothing Long Gone. You should be commended for not burdening the taxpayers more by going on the dole for the mafia that are ripping off everyone back home to p!ss money away.

Can you translate that into English please?

MouseTail · 01-09-2014 7:41am

pips25 wrote: »

wow i went online tonight to pay the 800 euro for the past few years and they dont give u the option. Nor do they give u the option to set up a account if u dont have a irish citizin pps number. So i ended up using my sisters pps number and still could not pay the 800 euro. hope my sis dont get in trouble. would wreck ur mind

As long as you took screenshots, you can argue that you made an attempt to pay before the deadline, and the penalties should be frozen, but as per my previous post, you DO have a PPSN, it was your unique identifer for Child Benefit, national school, vaccines, secondary school, the leaving cert, your college place, your degree, your passport. It would be impossible not to have one.

sin_city · 01-09-2014 9:38am

ArseBurger wrote: »

Can you translate that into English please?

You must have got one of those worthless degrees too

Ogham · 01-09-2014 10:17am

pips25 wrote: »

You are fine if you are just renting in London. The council are going after people that own 2 property's. I am trying to figure this out myself regarding how the council chase after people. If you read the rest of the post's on this site you will see that someone commented that the council are just sitting there rubbing their hands waiting for all of this late fee money to come rolling in., never a true word.

The councils seem to be going for anyone who paid the Household Charge or LPT on a property - but where thay have a different contact address on with Revenue. Some of these will be errors.

Sam Kade · 01-09-2014 10:22am

I heard on the radio that the 7k charge will only stay on the house for 12 years, what happens after that? Doubles goes back to zero

Ogham · 01-09-2014 10:24am

Sam Kade wrote: »

I heard on the radio that the 7k charge will only stay on the house for 12 years, what happens after that? Doubles goes back to zero

It just goes -(zero)

Sam Kade · 01-09-2014 10:28am

Ogham wrote: »

It just goes -(zero)

Of course if you don't pay it it will be a black mark against you if you need a tax clearance cert. What about people that emigrated will they get away without paying it?

Ogham · 01-09-2014 10:36am

The NPPR is nothing to do with Revenue - it is the duty of the local councils to collect it. So it should have no effect on tax clearance cert.
The oustanding charges + penalties are no longer held against the property after 12 years - so the 2009 charge is cancelled in 2021 and the 2013 charge will be removed in 2025.

Prosecution for NPPR non payment can only take place within 6 years from the date on which the offence concerned was committed.

Councils haven't got the staff to go investigating individuals or taking cases to court.

01-09-2014 10:37am

Zambia-

Not questioning the Mod warning but I do think that in a thread dealing with tax liabilities and probable hefty repercussions it isn't great form to only hop in once Long_Gone has irritated other posters with his/her blind ignorance and bluster over what is a fairly clear issue.

I know that anyone looking to boards.ie for legal info ought to be more careful and seek official and professional advice but at the same time a poster advising people in these matters should be regulated in some way or fashion if they either don't know what they're talking about or are advising other posters in bad faith as a method of rabble-rousing (like online Boyd-Barrett avatars)

Almost everything Long_Gone has stated in the thread is completely incorrect- One of my previous career incarnations was in NPPR administration and, basically, if you take any or all of Long_Gone's statements and just do the exact opposite you should be ok as regards the NPPR charge.

Bit late now for everyone, sorry I didn't see the thread until this morning.

SpaceTime · 01-09-2014 10:42am

I'm no fan of property taxes but to be fair, hardly any country that doesn't have them. You'd be paying property or land rates on all property in Australia too.

MouseTail · 01-09-2014 11:12am

Ogham wrote: »

The NPPR is nothing to do with Revenue - it is the duty of the local councils to collect it. So it should have no effect on tax clearance cert.
The oustanding charges + penalties are no longer held against the property after 12 years - so the 2009 charge is cancelled in 2021 and the 2013 charge will be removed in 2025.

Prosecution for NPPR non payment can only take place within 6 years from the date on which the offence concerned was committed.

Councils haven't got the staff to go investigating individuals or taking cases to court.

I thought it was the responsibility of the State Collections Agency?

Ogham · 01-09-2014 11:27am

MouseTail wrote: »

I thought it was the responsibility of the State Collections Agency?

The local authorities have delegated the collection to The Local Government Management Services Board - (but they can't prosecute).
The LGMA provides a "National Shared Service central Data Bureau on behalf of the Local Authority sector for the Household Charge, the Non Principle Private Residence (NPPR) charge and the Protect Our Water charge. "

All communication about charges and penalties are supposed to go through the local councils.

Peregrinus · 02-09-2014 2:40am

SpaceTime wrote: »

I'm no fan of property taxes but to be fair, hardly any country that doesn't have them. You'd be paying property or land rates on all property in Australia too.

Yes. And at a much higher rate than in Ireland. And with no exemption for a principal private residence.

mrsbyrne · 02-09-2014 8:05am

I hope no posters reading this have taken long_gone advice. Absolute rubbish. Makes me wonder if he/she can actually Google or or if it's a troll.

aido79 · 02-09-2014 1:27pm

mrsbyrne wrote: »

I hope no posters reading this have taken long_gone advice. Absolute rubbish. Makes me wonder if he/she can actually Google or or if it's a troll.

Agreed. This is a much more reliable source of information :

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/owning_a_home/home_owners/new_local_authority_charges_on_residential_property.html

What long gone is basically saying is that he doesn't agree with the tax and that he doesn't believe that he or anyone should pay it. Alot of the other stuff he talks about sound like the ramblings of a crazy person but thats a different matter. As other people have mentioned this tax is alot lower than property taxes in other countries such as Australia.

sin_city · 02-09-2014 2:00pm

aido79 wrote: »

Agreed. This is a much more reliable source of information :

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/owning_a_home/home_owners/new_local_authority_charges_on_residential_property.html

What long gone is basically saying is that he doesn't agree with the tax and that he doesn't believe that he or anyone should pay it. Alot of the other stuff he talks about sound like the ramblings of a crazy person but thats a different matter. As other people have mentioned this tax is alot lower than property taxes in other countries such as Australia.

You'd get a ban for calling him a crazy person rambling in other forums.

So what if the tax is lower than other places....its wrong.

It's another kick in the guts to anyone struggling....by the way there's none in NZ

aido79 · 02-09-2014 2:10pm

sin_city wrote: »

You'd get a ban for calling him a crazy person rambling in other forums.

So what if the tax is lower than other places....its wrong.

It's another kick in the guts to anyone struggling....by the way there's none in NZ

I'm not saying I agree with the tax or the ridiculously excessive late fees piled on top of it but if people had've done the right thing and paid €200 a year then they wouldn't have this problem.

Questland · 03-09-2014 5:05pm

For anybody thinking of challenging the excessive nature of the penalties for the NPPR google the UK case of Trinity Mirror v HMRC (sorry it wont let me post a link!) which might be of interest as in that case the UK Revenue were required to back down on the imposition of a penalty which was regarded as disproportionate. It is a principle of EU Law that penalties must be proportionate. Question is whether €20 a month would be regarded as disproportionate.

db · 03-09-2014 5:27pm

As someone who has sold a house recently I can explain exactly how this works when it comes to selling. Everyone is liable to this tax unless you can prove you have an exemption and you will need to provide a certificate of exemption when it comes to disposing of the house. You are entitled to an exemption if the house was your principal private residence at all times between 2009 and 2013 and you will need to be able to prove this. I had to provide utility bills and bank statements covering a number of dates in each of the years and while I had a good bit of this documentation available, I had destroyed and lost some. The TV license proved very useful as proof of continuous residence.

Even if you were living in the house throughout the period, it would be a good idea to get your documentation in place and apply for a certificate of exemption now because 5 or 10 years down the line you will still be liable for this tax if your haven't paid and it will be difficult to find old bills and statements.

Ogham · 03-09-2014 6:31pm

Questland wrote: »

For anybody thinking of challenging the excessive nature of the penalties for the NPPR google the UK case of Trinity Mirror v HMRC (sorry it wont let me post a link!) which might be of interest as in that case the UK Revenue were required to back down on the imposition of a penalty which was regarded as disproportionate. It is a principle of EU Law that penalties must be proportionate. Question is whether €20 a month would be regarded as disproportionate.

It's more than that - it was €20 a month until this weekend - then they just increased the whole amount by 50%. An initail charge of €1000 for the 5 years has now risen to €7320 - more that 7 times the original charge!

http://www.moneyguideireland.com/penalties-of-e6320-to-be-charged-on-unpaid-nppr-of-e1000.html

Questland · 03-09-2014 7:03pm

Ogham wrote: »

It's more than that - it was €20 a month until this weekend - then they just increased the whole amount by 50%. An initail charge of €1000 for the 5 years has now risen to €7320 - more that 7 times the original charge!

penalties-of-e6320-to-be-charged-on-unpaid-nppr-of-e1000.html[/url]

Ha even better for those that want to argue it! Its been a while since I read that VAT case but I just remembered it when I saw how much they were looking for off people when compared with the initial liability amount.

Smellbourne · 04-09-2014 12:43am

Just read through this whole post as I too was disgusted when I found out about the NPPR for the first time earlier this year. I feel it is an unjust tax, not in what it represented (a property tax prior to LPT), but purely in the way it as communicated to the population at large.
Having followed up on it with the council when I first hear a few months ago to see if I was liable for the penalties as I had never heard of the NPPR before (Living abroad and renting the property) the details about how it was communicated we're sketchy to say the least. Basically if you we're living abroad and managing your rental property yourself you would not have heard about NPPR when it was brought in in 2009 as it was solely communicated through local media (radio and papers). So you would want to be an avid listener online to the Irish stations or religiously read the Irish papers online in the event something like this was introduced. There was no notification sent to people registered with the tenancies board PRBT or any other direct targeted communication with property owners at large at home or abroad. There was also the nickname coined for NPPR when it was first introduced as the 'Holiday Home Tax' which threw anyone who may have been fortunate to read about it but then figure “I only have one property and it’s not a holiday home”
I have paid the retrospective ‘tax’ and got nailed for the penalties for something I feel we have been tricked into noncompliance. Thankfully I could afford to pay it before it got any worse but it was a significant bite out of my savings which has now cost me my trip home to see family this christmas and few other belt tightening issues. I really feel for those who do not have savings available and this comes as another kick when their down. I love Ireland and hope to be able to move back some day when work is available but this leaves me further disillusioned with the state of the government.

Bit of a rant but I feel I needed to express my dismay

catbear · 04-09-2014 1:34am

@Smellbourne
Do you really expect the Irish taxpayer to fund advertisements in every media throughout the world to inform absentee landlords?

Smellbourne · 04-09-2014 1:47am

It it costs nothing to send an email to all those registered on the PRBT? Even a letter drop to them would cost a couple of cents out of the money you pay to register a tenancy. Had we known we would have paid, simple. I still pay tax in Ireland so why should I not be informed of any changes required involving my asset.

catbear; can you honestly say you believe it was well communicated in 2009?

Esel · 04-09-2014 2:07am

How many properties are involved here? How many owners who are in a position to vote?

It does not affect me, but I think it is scandalous. A penalty of €20 per month is 120% per annum. I cannot see how that is fair or reasonable.

Ninap · 04-09-2014 2:18am

db wrote: »

As someone who has sold a house recently I can explain exactly how this works when it comes to selling. Everyone is liable to this tax unless you can prove you have an exemption and you will need to provide a certificate of exemption when it comes to disposing of the house. You are entitled to an exemption if the house was your principal private residence at all times between 2009 and 2013 and you will need to be able to prove this. I had to provide utility bills and bank statements covering a number of dates in each of the years and while I had a good bit of this documentation available, I had destroyed and lost some. The TV license proved very useful as proof of continuous residence.

Even if you were living in the house throughout the period, it would be a good idea to get your documentation in place and apply for a certificate of exemption now because 5 or 10 years down the line you will still be liable for this tax if your haven't paid and it will be difficult to find old bills and
statements.

For what it's worth, liability for this tax will expire in 2023, so if selling a house after that date you won't need to prove occupancy for 2009/13

catbear · 04-09-2014 3:08am

Smellbourne wrote: »

It it costs nothing to send an email to all those registered on the PRBT? Even a letter drop to them would cost a couple of cents out of the money you pay to register a tenancy. Had we known we would have paid, simple. I still pay tax in Ireland so why should I not be informed of any changes required involving my asset.

catbear; can you honestly say you believe it was well communicated in 2009?

Fair enough, if they had a way of contacting those liable then fine. I rented through the bubble and ended up with increased taxes to pay for speculator debts so as you might appreciate I have little sympathy for landlords and even less for absentees.

mandrake04 · 04-09-2014 3:21am

Ninap wrote: »

For what it's worth, liability for this tax will expire in 2023, so if selling a house after that date you won't need to prove occupancy for 2009/13

Which proves its a short term cash grab, why did Revenue fob it off to councils? Maybe I'm a sceptic but increase the councils revenue by giving them a free hand to collect scandalous penalties and then decrease their government budgets. A huge indirect government tax of which the government can simply blame on people (unknowingly) not paying a small tax.

It's all very convenient, misleading people with 'second property' or 'holiday home' tax. I suppose they need the money to pay politicians pensions and bail out the bankers.

It's seems the government is not there to serve the people, the people are there to serve the government.

catbear · 04-09-2014 3:42am

mandrake04 wrote: »

It's seems the government is not there to serve the people, the people are there to serve the government.

From every election I've seen in Ireland the electorate is entirely to blame when the most common question heard is "what are you going to do for me?", followed closely by "what are you going to do for (insert town, electoral district, parish pump etc)?" and lastly by "will we get a minister from our area?".
Combined that's a mandate to plunder and elections merely pick the favorites to go get the booty.
Even the ones who were exposed as totally self serving get reelected because they were keeping with the voters mandate, hence Lowry.

The electorate gets the government it desires.

MouseTail · 04-09-2014 7:38am

Smellbourne wrote: »

It it costs nothing to send an email to all those registered on the PRBT? Even a letter drop to them would cost a couple of cents out of the money you pay to register a tenancy. Had we known we would have paid, simple. I still pay tax in Ireland so why should I not be informed of any changes required involving my asset.

catbear; can you honestly say you believe it was well communicated in 2009?

It was widely communicated and discussed. It is up to anyone who has property or assets here to be aware of their tax liabilities associated with it. No different to an investment anywhere in the world. And really, an hour a year checking up on your liabilities online would have ensured you weren't caught out by this.

catbear · 04-09-2014 8:08am

MouseTail wrote: »

It was widely communicated and discussed. It is up to anyone who has property or assets here to be aware of their tax liabilities associated with it. No different to an investment anywhere in the world. And really, an hour a year checking up on your liabilities online would have ensured you weren't caught out by this.

It's amazing though how many landlords feel profit is their entitlement and that it isn't a 'business'.

giri · 12-09-2014 1:40pm

Hi, Yep Ive been stung for the 7000 euro charge. Long story, live abroad etc, etc. No idea it ever existed till today.

My question is simply what if I just dont pay it? ever. The way I'm thinking is that I have no intention of selling it in the next 12 years anyway (already in so much negative equity, thats not possible anyway). What will they do to me in the meantime? will they just tag the 7000 dept to the property, which I dont care if they do or not, as I just wont sell it. I know I don't live in Ireland anyway and dont plan on coming back (just to visit), but what other implications are there for not paying? Can they try to prosecute me? what would that entail? Will there be even more damn penalties? I just cant pay it!

Would really appreciate some help on this. Totally lost, shocked and out of ideas!

Long Gone · 16-09-2014 5:04am

Smellbourne wrote: »

Thankfully I could afford to pay it before it got any worse but it was a significant bite out of my savings which has now cost me my trip home to see family this christmas and few other belt tightening issues. I really feel for those who do not have savings available and this comes as another kick when their down. I love Ireland and hope to be able to move back some day when work is available but this leaves me further disillusioned with the state of the government.

I sympathise with what has been done to you. Personally I would not have paid voluntarily like that. You have given in to bullying. I don't believe for a minute that it will be an issue in the future. Even if it was, let them first have to realise and then have to try to prove whenever you sell the house that NPPR tax was payable on it in the 5 years that NPPR applied (2009-2013) - The burden of proof is on them and this was a totally unfair and penal tax. It was not as you say a property tax before LPT, it was specifically a tax on people who owned property but did not live in the property as their primary residence. It only applied to a relatively small percentage of houses in Ireland. A very large proportion of those houses were owned by Irish emigrants like ourselves, many of us forced emigrants. Liability for this tax will completely lapse in 2023 anyway, so unless you're planning on selling before then no worries.

My view on Ireland is different to yours. I used to love Ireland (beautiful countryside on the very rare few occasions that the sun is shining), but I am completely disillusioned (and very angry) with the way that socially and economically the country has been run into the ground by the gombeen politicians and banksters. Lavish "citizenship ceremonies" for foreigners are held while our own young people are forced to emigrate. So called asylum seekers allowed to flood in. You're forced to emigrate and leave your property behind, then they want to tax you because you can't live in it ! Irish working people being screwed relentlessly by pay freezes, ever increasing taxes and stealth taxes (LPT, Water charges etc) while the lazy, the workshy, the feckless, the parasites and the scammers are given annual increases in their free handouts from those same Irish taxpayers. Scumbags and thieves totally out of control. It's an absolute disgrace. I would never even consider returning to Ireland. :mad:

ceekay74 · 08-10-2014 4:07pm

Long Gone wrote: »

In any case if people who have emigrated are renting their property out they are non resident landlords and their tax liability is in their country of residence.

Wrong.

Tax on rental income is due in Ireland regardless of where the landlord lives...

Non - Resident Landlords

Where rent is paid to a landlord who is not resident in the State, certain obligations may arise for the tenant. If the landlord has an agent in the State to whom the rent is paid then no obligations arise. If however rent is paid directly to the landlord (this includes payment directly into a bank account held by the landlord) then the following actions must be taken. The tenant must deduct 20% of the rent due from the amount paid over to the landlord. This 20% must then be remitted to Revenue. The local Revenue Office should be contacted to make the appropriate arrangements for the collection of this charge. The remaining 80% of the rent due should be paid over to the landlord. At the end of the year the tenant should furnish the landlord with a completed

Form R185 - Certificate of Income Tax Deducted (PDF, 47KB). This form gives details of the amount of the rent that was paid over to Revenue. The landlord can then claim this amount as a credit on their annual Tax Return.

http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/it/credits/rent-credit.html

jdpl28 · 12-03-2015 10:56am

Just to note - its possible to appeal for a 50% reduction in the late payment fees & a number of people have been successful in this appeal. Its not ideal, but its better than nothing. But there are conditions...

The website http://npprappeal.ie covers all this.

Own a house in Ireland and not paid NPPR?.. warning.

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