How do you intend to vote in the upcoming EU Fiscal Treaty referendum?

Biggins · 29-02-2012 9:03pm

O' look - another leaked document from Germany - what timing, what a coincidence, what a same country!

Leaked document suggests Ireland may need further budget cuts in 2012

A LEAKED DOCUMENT has suggested that Ireland could require a mini-budget this year to implement further cuts.
A document leaked to the German parliament and seen by Bloomberg today has suggested the need for further fiscal tightening later this year if there is “further deterioration of the macroeconomic backdrop”.

The Department of Finance declined to comment on the document when contacted by TheJournal.ie this evening but confirmed its authenticity as a draft document which would be published by the European Commission tomorrow.
“The Commission staff report is being considered by Senior Officials from European Finance Ministries today and is due to be published tomorrow,” a statement said.

“The key programme documents including the Letter of Intent and the accompanying documents associated with the 5th review of the Irish Programme were published on the Department of Finance website on the 14th of February.”
Last November, documents leaked to the German parliament revealed the extent of the budget adjustments that were to be made the following month with the rise in VAT confirmed in Germany before it was disclosed in Ireland.

Sinn Féin TD Pearse Doherty has said it is “deeply troubling” that news of a possible mini-budget has been leaked to the finance committee of the German parliament before it was disclosed here.
“It is deeply troubling that yet again German Parliamentarians know more about the details of the Troika’s austerity programme in Ireland that elected Irish politicians.
He called on the Taoiseach to explain why the German parliament is discussing this document “before we have been given the chance to discuss it, and to state what he knows about the commission’s views on a mini budget.”

The government still anticipates that the €3.8 billion adjustment announced in last December’s budget will be sufficient to meet the targets laid down by the Troika that the budget shortfall be narrowed to 8.6 per cent of gross domestic product (GDP) in 2012.

http://www.thejournal.ie/leaked-documents-suggest-ireland-may-need-further-budget-cuts-in-2012-369839-Feb2012/

yellowlabrador · 29-02-2012 9:11pm

I've decided on how I'm going to cast my vote. I'm going to ask every person I meet in town over the next 2 weeks who our local MEP's are. If I can find 10 people who know, I'll vote yes. The only time I've seen them (or their canvassers) was when they were looking for my vote, I've not heard a thing since, apart from hearing one of them was considering standing for president. I've lived in Brussels and believe me, if you think the TD's are on a gravytrain, the MEP's are on a caviarexpress.
I personally don't think that this treaty is the solution and would avoid our problems happening again. Can the same criteria be applied to all the countries? The imbalance between ecomomic conditions in, for example Germany and Ireland at the start of the Euro experiment , had a major part to play.

BroomBurner · 29-02-2012 9:43pm

What it comes down to is if I trust the EU to fix the problem they started with their lackadaisical approach to financial regulation.

The EU had a lot of great rules about joining the euro, but allowed everyone to bypass them, helping to cause the mess. Not particularly inspiring.

The bureaucracy of the EU is like Ireland at its absolute worst. The Commission is a bloated, giant mass of public servants answerable to almost noone and even asked for a budget increase the year before last. Not particularly inspiring.

To be honest, I fail to see how the current lot are capable of fixing things with whatever they come up with. I don't trust 'em.

gerryo777 · 29-02-2012 9:50pm

dvpower wrote: »

but that's ok because some people will get f*cked more than others?

So it's more of the same then?

What colour is your time machine dv?

K-9 · 29-02-2012 11:02pm

Eric Cartman wrote: »

so If we vote no , the bloated civil service and the dole scroungers all get f*cked , well thats 2 more reasons to vote no

People have said that for 4/5 years now, first it was when the crash started, then it was the Croke Park deal, "take it or it will be far worse if the IMF come in", when the IMF came in, still no slashing and a year after they are here, still none.

I suppose this might finally be the time, but being a political realist, nope. Strictly there shouldn't be another EU/IMF bailout if we say no, but if its a choice between us defaulting and the markets going ballistic again, they'll find someway round it, skirting the real issue as per usual. The terms in the Treaty will probably be part of any new bail out anyway, or pretty close.

K-9 · 29-02-2012 11:09pm

yellowlabrador wrote: »

I personally don't think that this treaty is the solution and would avoid our problems happening again.

When you consider we basically did abide by the old terms until the crash, and we still had a crash, you are correct. Germany and France consistently flouted the terms IIRC. Portugal was the only one threatened with sanctions and that never happened.

Can the same criteria be applied to all the countries?

Yes, the Commission can take a case against any signed up member, but it will take the political will to do it. I've a notion they wont be strictly enacted, more a if you're going in the general direction of the targets, grand!

The imbalance between ecomomic conditions in, for example Germany and Ireland at the start of the Euro experiment , had a major part to play.

Germany was still suffering from reunification costs and was undergoing its own form of austerity.

Paz-CCFC · 29-02-2012 11:18pm

vicwatson wrote: »

Maybe they'll have the referendum on the rights of children in Ireland on the same day? They've been putting that one off for years and years, the assholes.

It's absolutely shocking that they prioritise economic-based referenda, when children are left with next to no contitutional rights. It should have been the first thing on the agenda when FG-Labour were elected. The importance of the recession is dwarfed by that of the lack of rights for children.

recyclebin wrote: »

How can I vote on something when we don't know yet what we are voting on. I know we have an idea of what the treaty is about but I'm not going to vote yes or no until I see the fine details.

There should be an option for undecided in the poll.

http://www.european-council.europa.eu/media/579087/treaty.pdf

I believe this is the full text of the proposed treaty.

Freddie59 · 29-02-2012 11:28pm

dvpower wrote: »

We all get f*cked, but that's ok because some people will get f*cked more than others?

Kinda like Public Sector v Private Sector Wages in the boom then?

Sykk · 29-02-2012 11:33pm

What difference does it make? If we vote no, it will be put to another refferendum.. And again, and again until they get the desired results.

El Guapo! · 29-02-2012 11:39pm

Voting NO. And it doesn't matter how many times they make us vote on it. I'll vote NO each and every time.

suitseir · 29-02-2012 11:43pm

Voting YES!

Really and truly,we have no choice.

charlemont · 29-02-2012 11:43pm

BroomBurner wrote: »

What it comes down to is if I trust the EU to fix the problem they started with their lackadaisical approach to financial regulation.

The EU had a lot of great rules about joining the euro, but allowed everyone to bypass them, helping to cause the mess. Not particularly inspiring.

The bureaucracy of the EU is like Ireland at its absolute worst. The Commission is a bloated, giant mass of public servants answerable to almost noone and even asked for a budget increase the year before last. Not particularly inspiring.

To be honest, I fail to see how the current lot are capable of fixing things with whatever they come up with. I don't trust 'em.

These points could play a part in swinging me towards a No vote, I'm all for European integration but we are gone to the stage now were we have far too much governmental bodies etc at all levels EU Ireland and Local and all it does is make things more complicated and less democratic.

gerryo777 · 29-02-2012 11:49pm

suitseir wrote: »

Voting YES!

Really and truly,we have no choice.

There is always a choice.

Are we going to continue making the wrong choices??

theg81der · 29-02-2012 11:54pm

No thanks you to Europe permanently from me. Just the fact that we no longer have a veto really annoys me. They`re just going to keep going little by little till power is completely centralised and its too late....

gerryo777 · 29-02-2012 11:58pm

theg81der wrote: »

No thanks you to Europe permanently from me. Just the fact that we no longer have a veto really annoys me. They`re just going to keep going little by little till power is completely centralised and its too late....

I thought that after lisbon 2 we were told that we would still have a veto??

theg81der · 01-03-2012 8:46am

gerryo777 wrote: »

I thought that after lisbon 2 we were told that we would still have a veto??

Thats was never true. We were also told "yes to europe, yes to jobs" sorry where are the jobs and where were they in the treaty?!

I can only summise that people are stupid and will stupidly vote yes again. Financial stability is very important to the haves and the have nots are not the biggest voters.

derfderf · 01-03-2012 9:19am

Does anyone know why the shinners are saying vote no? They're usually against any cuts, despite economic realities. A no vote would be the biggest dose of reality this country received in a long time.

syklops · 01-03-2012 9:33am

Doc Ruby wrote: »

My takeaway is if we vote no, its the end of loans from Europe.

So that would be a no from me, then.

Does not compute

No loan then the guards dont get paid tomorrow. Do you get that????

AudreyHepburn · 01-03-2012 9:35am

I'll probably vote No, simply because I don't like the idea of Merkle and Sarkozy having this kind of control over us. I do think it's in our best interests to remain tied to Europe but not like this.

It seems to me however that the majority of people are voting No simply to get one up on the Government, to give them the finger if you like. And that, to me, is not a good reason or way to vote.

If you do wish to vote No then do it for the right reasons, and not through bitterness or because you think the Government are incapable of anything.

syklops · 01-03-2012 9:46am

derfderf wrote: »

Does anyone know why the shinners are saying vote no? They're usually against any cuts, despite economic realities. A no vote would be the biggest dose of reality this country received in a long time.

Because their understanding of economic issues is "When the going gets tough, the tough rob the local Northern Rock bank(or the local stationary cupboard)"

AeoNGriM · 01-03-2012 9:48am

SafeSurfer wrote: »

How will you vote in the referendum?

I will be voting no. It's not the EU's place to dicate how this or any nation handles it's finances. Yes I'm aware the ECB is bailing us out.....but they're charging us interest on the loan so it's not out of the kindness of their hearts and it certainly doesn't give them the right to tell us how to run the country.

Rules and regulations enforced by a foreign interest are not wanted in this nation, as every Irish man and woman well knows, and they won't solve anything if introduced.

The only thing that is going to ensure that crap like this recession doesn't happen again is rounding up the entire circus of bogus politicians and crooked businessmen with the scumbags that represent them, bayonet them slowly, one at a time, and dump them in the Liffey.

McTigs · 01-03-2012 10:04am

vicwatson wrote: »

For Mr Sarkozy my vote will be - Non

For Ms Merkel my vote will be - Nein

You thought you didn't have to ask the lowly peasants from Ireland didn't you. Well fook you and the horses you rode in on.

When this referendum doesn't pass in Ireland don't come crying to us. No more shall we bow to your demands. No more austerity. No more looking at our budgets and finances, goddamn none of your business.

No more austerity? oh holy lol!!!!

You think this is austerity? This? What we have now? Good God!!!!

Let's vote no so and see what happens when we have to balance our budget overnight. You'll be remembering now as the good ol days.

i prolly won't be living here so it won't matter to me but g'luck with that.

Sunnyisland · 01-03-2012 10:08am

Dont know how I will vote,I shall do some reading here and elsewhere before I make up my mind.

Gingernuts31 · 01-03-2012 10:09am

Why do I get the feeling that most will vote no due to sein fein saying we will be stuck with austrity measures for alot longer than 2015 and those trying to punish the government for bailing out the bondholders. I knew people were wishing for a ref on this just to piss off the government and as always we won't be told exactly what we are voting on so that another reason to vote no. I on the other hand will be voting yes as I don't sein fein spouting sh!te with their ink fiasco. They are the pot calling the kettle black in my opinion and guaranteed if they were in government now they would still be hitting people with taxes and charges etc as they would need to make money for the bailout just like the current government is doing regardless of how they come across as the people party. All politicans are the same. They will promise you the sun,moon and stars but when the going gets tough, they hit the little people and every government in every country goes by that rule.

talkinyite · 01-03-2012 10:10am

I support localisation not globalisation and centralisation, so I'll vote no.

01-03-2012 10:19am

I'll be voting yes wholeheartedly on the treaty, I won't be considering past treaties, the household charge, USC, price of fuel etc so I'll vote yes. If I was considering all the other things I've mentioned I would also vote yes

syklops · 01-03-2012 10:21am

talkinyite wrote: »

I support localisation not globalisation and centralisation, so I'll vote no.

Says a guy posting on an Internet forum.

Anyone · 01-03-2012 10:22am

No from me. What I read yesterday about the German parliament discussing a leaked document before our Government about a mini budget here was the final straw.

gerryo777 · 01-03-2012 10:36am

syklops wrote: »

Because their understanding of economic issues is "When the going gets tough, the tough rob the local Northern Rock bank(or the local stationary cupboard)"

Whereas our governments understanding is "when the going gets tough, the banks can rob the people"

View · 01-03-2012 10:38am

talkinyite wrote: »

I support localisation not globalisation and centralisation, so I'll vote no.

Well, if you are opposed to centralisation, you'll be glad to know that Merkel's CDU passed a motion at a recent party conference that included the following:

For the CDU, the various nations and their national identity are the defining elements of a Europe which is united in diversity. We do not want a Europe that is ruled and administered in a centralised way. This is why we advocate the basic principles of regional and local self-government, subsidiarity and proportionality. Within the parameters set by its Member States, the European Union operates in accordance with federal principles and methods.

In other words, Angela & you are thinking on the same lines.

gerryo777 · 01-03-2012 10:42am

Gingernuts31 wrote: »

Why do I get the feeling that most will vote no due to sein fein saying we will be stuck with austrity measures for alot longer than 2015 and those trying to punish the government for bailing out the bondholders. I knew people were wishing for a ref on this just to piss off the government and as always we won't be told exactly what we are voting on so that another reason to vote no. I on the other hand will be voting yes as I don't sein fein spouting sh!te with their ink fiasco. They are the pot calling the kettle black in my opinion and guaranteed if they were in government now they would still be hitting people with taxes and charges etc as they would need to make money for the bailout just like the current government is doing regardless of how they come across as the people party. All politicans are the same. They will promise you the sun,moon and stars but when the going gets tough, they hit the little people and every government in every country goes by that rule.

VOTE YES, BECAUSE THE SHINNERS SAY VOTE NO! I can see the posters now!

That's a really educated and informed way to make up your mind.

Personally, I'll be waiting to see what we are supposed to be voting for / against.

Biggins · 01-03-2012 10:44am

Anyone wrote: »

No from me. What I read yesterday about the German parliament discussing a leaked document before our Government about a mini budget here was the final straw.

...But... but... the threat of another budget was just a coincidence that was innocently leaked out just after the referendum was announced!

It was just bad timing, is all!

"There is nothing to fear, carry on!"

01-03-2012 11:09am

Anyone wrote: »

No from me. What I read yesterday about the German parliament discussing a leaked document before our Government about a mini budget here was the final straw.

You only read that yesterday and that is a contributory factor in how you will vote in the upcoming referendum?

Freddie59 · 01-03-2012 11:12am

RoverJames wrote: »

You only read that yesterday and that is a contributory factor in how you will vote in the upcoming referendum?

The important two words are 'final straw'.

01-03-2012 11:40am

I would think being months behind with current affairs was a fairly important point tbh

gerryo777 · 01-03-2012 11:43am

RoverJames wrote: »

I would think being months behind with current affairs was a fairly important point tbh

I think 'anyone' was pointing to yesterday's leak and not the one before the last budget.
I hope your not 'behind with current affairs'

Anyone · 01-03-2012 11:44am

RoverJames wrote: »

I would think being months behind with current affairs was a fairly important point tbh

I'm not talking about the one last November. Maybe its yourself that needs to keep up with Current Affairs?

Nothingbetter2d · 01-03-2012 11:53am

the groutch wrote: »

No, no, and no again (we'll probably have to say no 3 times before they get the message)

hehe we'll have to keep voting no until SF get into power cos Finé Germans & Labour Camp will keep pushing referendums until they get a yes vote.

Nothingbetter2d · 01-03-2012 12:03pm

Tora Bora wrote: »

I'll vote yes, if Phil Hogan, drinks a few pints of water, straight out of my septic tank, and declares it equally as effective at treating sewage as any Dublin city treatment plant.

just make sure you eat a vindaloo the night before he drinks from your septic tank

hooradiation · 01-03-2012 12:12pm

There's nothing quite like an EU referendum to bring out the stupid in people.

Honestly, what's the point in trying to have a democracy when people are so willing and even proud to shirk their responsibility to be an informed voter?

Anyone · 01-03-2012 12:18pm

hooradiation wrote: »

There's nothing quite like an EU referendum to bring out the stupid in people.

Honestly, what's the point in trying to have a democracy when people are so willing and even proud to shirk their responsibility to be an informed voter?

Haha,I think you want the type of democracy they have in Syria.

hooradiation · 01-03-2012 12:22pm

Anyone wrote: »

Haha,I think you want the type of democracy they have in Syria.

I thank you for amply demonstrating my contention.

Anyone · 01-03-2012 12:24pm

hooradiation wrote: »

I thank you for amply demonstrating my contention.

No problem, I just laugh at people like you at times, who slate people for not having the same views as you.

Just remember, it was you who called people ill informed and stupid.

hooradiation · 01-03-2012 12:37pm

Anyone wrote: »

No problem, I just laugh at people like you at times, who slate people for not having the same views as you.

Just remember, it was you who called people ill informed and stupid.

You... really don't understand what is being said, do you?

force eleven · 01-03-2012 12:41pm

So we are being asked to vote in a set of measures which will tie us into austerity for at least another 10-15yrs. With absolutely no guarantee we'll get any 'sweeteners', i.e debt write-down which at least might reduce by a few years the crap we are going through now.

We need to grow our way out of this, and yet the government wants to stagnate our economy and cripple any green shoots by agreeing to Merkel and Sarkozys wishes? This suits the big players as it has ALWAYS done and always will. We will still get our bailout money regardless, you can 'bank' on it, because while the EU will try and bluff and doommonger their way to a Yes - neither do they want a defaulting Ireland, so we'll get it whther we are in or out of the strait jacket.

And anyone who trots out the 'better off in Europe' and 'we need a strong Euro' needs their head examined. I look at my kids and see they will be paying their taxes in 10 or 15 years time to the anonymous bond holders who seem to have our government in a hypnotic trance to pay back everything 100% of a gamble that failed.

Vote No - end of story.:mad:

gerryo777 · 01-03-2012 1:07pm

Anyone wrote: »

No problem, I just laugh at people like you at times, who slate people for not having the same views as you.

Just remember, it was you who called people ill informed and stupid.

There's a lot on boards.ie like that.
Any other point of view is dismissed.
It's their way or no way.
Sounds a bit like gilmore before the election!

mikemac1 · 01-03-2012 1:15pm

Vote no

Secure some sweeteners

Then vote yes?

Worked with Nice

irelandrover · 01-03-2012 1:20pm

mikemac1 wrote: »

Vote no

Secure some sweeteners

Then vote yes?

Worked with Nice

Why should Ireland get sweeteners to vote YES on this referendum?

Choudary · 01-03-2012 1:39pm

Good day Sirs,

Unfortunately I can not vote in these election, as I am Indian citizen. I am very much confident and hoping that all Irland people will use vote wisely.

Thank you.

Best Regards,

Choudary Chintapalli

gerryo777 · 01-03-2012 1:43pm

irelandrover wrote: »

Why should Ireland get sweeteners to vote YES on this referendum?

Because they would rather we were 'in' than 'out'.

Think about it, if we vote no and in the future we need another bailout, we wont be able to access funds from the ECB.

If this happens we will have to default on loans made to us and that will cause untold damage to the euro project.

How do you intend to vote in the upcoming EU Fiscal Treaty referendum?

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