Reasonable Salary Expectation?

meor · 01-10-2015 7:40pm #1

Hi,

I know these questions pop up every now and then but was looking to get a feel for what people think nowadays. Basically, is €45k a reasonable expectation for a JEE dev with 3 years experience in Dublin.

Also, in case this thread comes up on Google for anyone, what do you think are reasonable salaries for different levels of experience for Java developers. Obviously there are salary guides available from recruiters but I'd be interested in seeing what developers' experience is. My thinking would be:

Graduate - €26k to €32k
2-5 Years - €40k to €50k
5+ Years - €55k+

Thanks.

Tar.Aldarion · 05-10-2015 12:26pm

I don't work with java so i'll not comment on what I earn vs that, but here is a salary guide from 2015
http://www.morganmckinley.ie/article/it-2015-salary-survey-benefits-guide

java developer
0-3 years 25-45k
3-5 years 45-55k
5 years+ 55-70k

donal.hunt · 07-10-2015 12:35am

I think a lot depends on the culture in the company and expertise of the individual. Multinationals (and probably others) tend to focus on success / impact to the company and reward individuals with increases in base salary based on this impact.

From what I've seen with developer roles and responsibilities, actual coding experience will only get you so far -- it's the ability to understand the problem set (the people with the problem don't necessarily know how to quantify it in a way that make the solution obvious), design elegant sustainable and low maintenance solutions and communicate progress / roadblocks that tend to provide the impact (and as a result the salary to keep talent at companies).

I personally think that tenure / O(time on skill X) is a poor way to reward people. I would much prefer to pay someone 2x if they can come in and deliver in the space of a year than have someone hangout for 5 years (eventually earning the same amount) and deliver the same amount of work / skill.

If you're moving role / company and negotiating salary, ask how their salary model works and what it take to increase base salary / receive bonuses. Taking an offer that starts off 10% less but has annual reviews + the ability to increase your salary through demonstrated impact is probably going to be a better deal than somewhere that pays more but doesn't have a system / has a adhoc "we review salaries yearly and adjust as needed". For startups, the profit is all in whether the idea takes off and the team can deliver on their goals -- your ultimate concern should be to ensure your costs are covered and that the company can pay your salary for the next 6+ months. Good startups tend to be open about where they are at with funding and how much runway they have left.

Hope that helps.

TotallyEpic · 07-10-2015 4:18pm

meor wrote: »

Hi,

I know these questions pop up every now and then but was looking to get a feel for what people think nowadays. Basically, is €45k a reasonable expectation for a JEE dev with 3 years experience in Dublin.

Also, in case this thread comes up on Google for anyone, what do you think are reasonable salaries for different levels of experience for Java developers. Obviously there are salary guides available from recruiters but I'd be interested in seeing what developers' experience is. My thinking would be:
Graduate - €26k to €32k

2-5 Years - €40k to €50k

5+ Years - €55k+

Thanks.

I have just over 4 years experience, and I'm on roughly €45k. Seems to be about standard for my course. Hoping for a bump to €50k+ in the next year or so.

The_B_Man · 12-10-2015 12:55pm

Those salary guides are averages.
I know of java devs with just over 3 years who are on over 50k.
I actually also know a java dev who spent 3 years doing feck all in IBM, then changed to a python role and who's on over 50k as well.

Then in saying that, I also know people who would be on lower wages. The lowest I know being low 30s, and thats after 3 years!!! Its a small company though, and I think its possibly not Java, but web (ASP etc).

There's also the middle of the road then, ranging from high 30's to low 40s after 3 years.

I'm in mobile (Android) so I'm not sure how that coincides with core Java so cant really comment. I just know that my place doesn't pay well.

Incidentally, I'm looking for an Android role in Dublin, if anyone knows one?

Tar.Aldarion · 12-10-2015 2:13pm

Rather disheartening looking at figures here vs the US isn't it? Where grads get more than tech leads here.

The_B_Man · 12-10-2015 4:01pm

Where's good to work in the states, in terms of money?
Is there a link to the wages for somewhere like San Fran?

If the moneys that good, I'd nearly go over for a while and save for a house back home!!

Tar.Aldarion · 12-10-2015 4:22pm

San fran is good, bay area etc. there are plenty of well paying places in the US (NYC, Boston etc), some are more expensive to live in than others, then again their tax is so low that I often read of people planning to retire in their 40s on reddit. You see grads getting signing bonus' of 75k, people in their early twenties with 500k of stock etc earning 100-200k+ plus bonus' and so on. After you eeach an earning point you shift towards equity and bonus'. For instance, someone making 200k might actually be getting 120k base salary plus 15% bonus and 250k stock over 4 years (so, 120k + 18k + 62.5k = 200.5k). Seems fairly common to have 250-500k in stock alone at each job.

Dunno if there are resources for that kinda thing, you just see self reporting mostly. People in the US are generally shocked at what we make when you mention it.
Saw a guy yesterday asking was his 100k a salary ceiling, only to be told by people that god no, grads alone often make more than that.

The_B_Man · 12-10-2015 4:53pm

Christ!!!! Didn't realise it was that high!
Like realistically if someone was to get a 200k job and work for 2 years, you could potentially live off a fraction of that and save the rest!
In Dublin, I'd live off around 15k a year and the rest I'd save. I'm actually half thinking of this now! lol

Is the cost of living over there that high that you'd need a 200k job to just live comfortably?

Tar.Aldarion · 12-10-2015 5:07pm

Cost of living in san fran would be nearly twice that of here, of course there are people who live more frugally. Overall they get paid a lot more when you adjust for cost of living even. They get less holidays, less job security is the flip side, also health insurance tied to your job is a thing.

L.Jenkins · 12-10-2015 8:28pm

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Rather disheartening looking at figures here vs the US isn't it? Where grads get more than tech leads here.

You have to remember, like us, they'll have feck all left at the end of the month after expenses. I lived in Northern California for awhile and it's be no means cheap. If you think house prices in Dublin are bad, a town in the ass hole of nowhere was looking for $500,000 + for 3/4 bedroom houses you'd turn your nose up at here, back in 2006.

TimeToShine · 13-10-2015 2:12am

I don't think any graduate program in Dublin pays above €40k let alone 50, especially not Amazon.

As for working in the US, yes it is more lucrative but unless you are applying for an internal transfer within a big multinational (at which point I believe they adjust wages accordingly) you need to a) Somehow convince the company that you're worth it for them to apply for a H1B which costs around €10k and b) beat out stiff competition from a heap of CS graduates from the US who have the right to work their and are in many cases better educated.

The only conceivable way if you aren't truly terrific at what you do is to apply for an internship and prove your worth that way. If you're good enough a H1B will be in the pipeline and you can then work fro there - if one company is willing to sponsor you then others will too.

TimeToShine · 13-10-2015 2:15am

As for graduate salaries, you have to remember these kids are coming out of university in serious debt - six figures in many cases - and they adjust their graduate salaries accordingly. The Bay Area is also crazy expensive, we're talking $2-3k for a studio or 1 bed in the city, the young professional night scene is also a lot more expensive than it is here.

14ned · 13-10-2015 10:13am

The_B_Man wrote: »

Christ!!!! Didn't realise it was that high!
Like realistically if someone was to get a 200k job and work for 2 years, you could potentially live off a fraction of that and save the rest!
In Dublin, I'd live off around 15k a year and the rest I'd save. I'm actually half thinking of this now! lol

Is the cost of living over there that high that you'd need a 200k job to just live comfortably?

A senior developer in San Fran might expect $160-180k plus stock options. A senior developer in Dublin might expect €70-80k no stock options.

It might seem an awful disparity, but:

A good third of the Irish wage goes on social security taxes which pay out if you get widowed, unemployed, pregnant or any other life event. In the US you're more likely to lose your H1B visa and get thrown out by your employer as soon as you don't perform due to misfortune.
Most US tech employers pay your basic health insurance, but that still leaves you with a 20-50% deductible. A routine visit to the dentist cost me $2500 for a few fillings, whereas my family doctor here wouldn't charge more than €350 for the same work (he told me so after he examined the work). As much as health isn't usually expensive when you're young and healthy and single, it gets very expensive when you get a wife and children.
Any decent school around Silicon Valley either comes in a hideously expensive property district with multi-year waiting lists, or else you pay tens of thousands per child to go private. Even our worst school in Ireland is in the top third in California, they have some spectacularly bad schools.
As mentioned by others you'll need to double or treble your cost of living even over central Dublin. A good friend of mine is a Very Important Googler in Mountain View on about a third of million base salary before stock options, and I have more disposable income than he does working here in Ireland (we are both the sole earner in the household). The difference is my family hums along nicely on 20k a year, whereas my friend needs an absolute minimum of 200k just for rent and expenses (he does live within walking distance of Google HQ, so his rent is unusually expensive). His after tax after expenses income is actually a good bit lower than mine, about 20% less, despite that he earns nearly four times as much as I do.

In short, if you think you will never experience misfortune and you don't have children, working in Silicon Valley may make sense. That said, you'll also get the joy of commuting for several hours per day like you work in London and that all the locals hate you and make sure you know it. Working there is stressful, there is a lot of poverty everywhere you look and it wears you down. My buddy is seriously considering relocating to London, Google pay you to move around when you're senior enough even though he'll take a hefty pay cut because of British high taxes he thinks it'll be worth it to no longer have to work there. He's also getting old, and the lack of social security in the US is beginning to worry him, but if he gets too old the UK won't let him in.

If I were reconsidering relocating to the US, I'd actually choose Texas or New Mexico (most disposable income after taxes and expenses) and then Seattle (not far off in disposable income, plus enormous tech industry there). The wealth gap between rich and poor is much better in both too, and the locals don't hate you openly. Commute times are also reasonable, schools are much better without having to pay, and work life balance much nicer.

In short: there are many places much better than Silicon Valley in the US.

Niall

TimeToShine · 13-10-2015 11:09am

All great advice but I think the appeal of San Francisco to young people is second to none, I'd certainly put a few years of my life away to live there and expect to come out with no savings. I absolutely loved my time there and would move in a heartbeat. Portland also seems to be hitting a bit of a tech boom so I'd consider that too.

RealistSpy · 13-10-2015 3:46pm

TimeToShine wrote: »

I don't think any graduate program in Dublin pays above €40k let alone 50, especially not Amazon.

Wrong.

TimeToShine · 13-10-2015 4:19pm

RealistSpy wrote: »

Wrong.

Care to elaborate?

ED E · 13-10-2015 6:03pm

Know of CS students who had €45k offer entering 4th year for when they graduated.

The_B_Man · 13-10-2015 8:43pm

I think Microsoft offer 39k + 10% bonus.
In the places I worked in, QA grads started on 28k and dev grads started on 32k. That was standard enough across my college class, with one or two exceptions (one 35k and another 25k!!!).

L.Jenkins · 14-10-2015 8:56pm

The_B_Man wrote: »

I think Microsoft offer 39k + 10% bonus.
In the places I worked in, QA grads started on 28k and dev grads started on 32k. That was standard enough across my college class, with one or two exceptions (one 35k and another 25k!!!).

Multinationals can always offer more to a new hire, especially graduates. However, in my own experience and not that of everyone else, the year on year pay increments are pretty low.

Tar.Aldarion · 15-10-2015 12:23pm

Who offers 40-50k for grads here?

Itzy wrote: »

You have to remember, like us, they'll have feck all left at the end of the month after expenses. I lived in Northern California for awhile and it's be no means cheap. If you think house prices in Dublin are bad, a town in the ass hole of nowhere was looking for $500,000 + for 3/4 bedroom houses you'd turn your nose up at here, back in 2006.

TimeToShine wrote: »

As for graduate salaries, you have to remember these kids are coming out of university in serious debt - six figures in many cases - and they adjust their graduate salaries accordingly. The Bay Area is also crazy expensive, we're talking $2-3k for a studio or 1 bed in the city, the young professional night scene is also a lot more expensive than it is here.

While this can be true, it's a different situation, people I know from there can be asset rich but cash poor that is because their wealth can look like this:
~500k in a 401k
~100k in an IRA
~house worth 1 million+
~30k in the kid's college fund
~200k in retirement funds/other funds
~500k in unmatured stock options, hoping these will be worth more as they mature (if these are from the big 4 etc you are set)

etc, so yeah they can be cash poor but they can have millions in assets fairly fast. Take a couple working there, I know one and their combined income is 600k, they bought a house fairly fast by saying oh I think we will save 200k-300k a year for a couple of years, and the house was paid off, worth 1.5 million. It sure can be expensive to live there and I think most of them being cash poor can be due to rent and the expensive lifestyle, the ones who are more frugal are doing pretty great. The cost of living there is about 175% of here, so it's not as stark as people think but with lower taxes, more choice of what they spend and with smart decisions they can do great, people live there on a fraction of what a developer earns. There are plenty of net worth threads online for people in the bay area that people can look at. Downsides are less holidays, expensive healthcare etc.

There are cheaper places to live in the US with similar salaries AFAIK.

Itzy wrote: »

Multinationals can always offer more to a new hire, especially graduates. However, in my own experience and not that of everyone else, the year on year pay increments are pretty low.

Yeah that is what I have heard, do other people have different experience?
I don't think starting salary matters, my salary was completely different after a year and two years. For a first job you want to just take a job you think will be good for you.

Elessar · 16-10-2015 8:15am

Afaik Workday offer significant starting salaries for grads (40-45k) plus benefits like 27 days holidays.

(Sidenote: It's very disheartening to see grads earning significantly more than me, even though I'm 1.5y years doing development and app support. Ugh)

L.Jenkins · 16-10-2015 11:56am

Elessar wrote: »

Afaik Workday offer significant starting salaries for grads (40-45k) plus benefits like 27 days holidays.

(Sidenote: It's very disheartening to see grads earning significantly more than me, even though I'm 1.5y years doing development and app support. Ugh)

The only possible solutions to that would be (1) Ask for a pay rise or (2) move to a company willing to pay you what your worth.

Spunge · 19-10-2015 7:08am

i graduated in 2011 with BSc in computing, mostly doing games/graphics. Started as a dev in 2012, did a few months of ASP.NET, then about 10 months of android development, then since then pretty much all ruby on rails, though im trying to improve my front end skills, like js/angularjs and css, though i dont get much chance to touch the front end code coz the other devs dont want me near it.

i assume id only really get a good wage for a rails job, its about nearly 3 years experience now ?
any idea how much id get?
ive only worked in startups though so ive made about the same as the dole every year

finally got a distance contract i can do in my own time which is great, but its only temporary. id really prefer that life than 9-5 office job though.

OfflerCrocGod · 19-10-2015 7:35am

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Rather disheartening looking at figures here vs the US isn't it? Where grads get more than tech leads here.

It's also worth looking at London, there are no visa issues and you can get perm roles for ~€100K+ (~£75K) for front end senior devs. London wages have been given a big boost with the € weakness this last year.

Elessar · 19-10-2015 8:42am

Itzy wrote: »

The only possible solutions to that would be (1) Ask for a pay rise or (2) move to a company willing to pay you what your worth.

I know. I certainly won't get a payrise. The area I work in is quite niche and there are very few jobs that match what I do. I don't know if I'm good enough to be a full time developer (always doubting myself!) and if I stay in app support I'll reach my salary ceiling pretty quick, never getting to a level id like to be at. It's hard to know what to do. Maybe stick to this area, although niche, salaries will be better, or branch out into something else, risking being too generalised. Who knows. Rant over

Elessar · 19-10-2015 8:47am

OfflerCrocGod wrote: »

It's also worth looking at London, there are no visa issues and you can get perm roles for ~€100K+ (~£75K) for front end senior devs. London wages have been given a big boost with the € weakness this last year.

If I was looking at London I'd be looking at contract day-rate roles. Lots going and you're looking at significantly better rates than here. As an example, a contract oracle dev friend of mine left his job recently (despite being asked to stay on permanent or contract) for London and he's getting a good 30-40% more for the same work, and he was on an excellent rate.

14ned · 19-10-2015 10:29am

Spunge wrote: »

i graduated in 2011 with BSc in computing, mostly doing games/graphics. Started as a dev in 2012, did a few months of ASP.NET, then about 10 months of android development, then since then pretty much all ruby on rails, though im trying to improve my front end skills, like js/angularjs and css, though i dont get much chance to touch the front end code coz the other devs dont want me near it.

i assume id only really get a good wage for a rails job, its about nearly 3 years experience now ?
any idea how much id get?
ive only worked in startups though so ive made about the same as the dole every year
finally got a distance contract i can do in my own time which is great, but its only temporary. id really prefer that life than 9-5 office job though.

You're likely currently stuck in the trap between being considered a novice and being considered a "full stack" developer. Becoming seen as "full stack" doesn't just automatically happen with years of experience, though if your job just happens to have you tackle a wide range of problems then it can mean that, but ultimately this isn't on your employer, it's on you to make yourself seen as a full stack developer.

For me, much earlier in my career, that meant investing about 20 hours per week out of work on upskilling by working on highly visible open source projects which are great additions to your CV because a Google search will prove them (best add proof URLs to your CV for each bit). If you do that for two or three years, you should find your marketability will rise significantly.

Good pay isn't automatic in development any more than in medicine or anywhere else. You invest in yourself, work very hard when young, and you'll see the returns later in life - hopefully low six figure incomes by your thirties, with a bit of luck much more by the time you are fifty. It is still possible to retire aged 50 in Ireland from top end programming with a healthy private pension having never partaken in a startup - few professions allow that possibility at all.

Niall

Tar.Aldarion · 19-10-2015 10:41am

Spunge wrote: »

i graduated in 2011 with BSc in computing, mostly doing games/graphics. Started as a dev in 2012, did a few months of ASP.NET, then about 10 months of android development, then since then pretty much all ruby on rails, though im trying to improve my front end skills, like js/angularjs and css, though i dont get much chance to touch the front end code coz the other devs dont want me near it.

i assume id only really get a good wage for a rails job, its about nearly 3 years experience now ?
any idea how much id get?
ive only worked in startups though so ive made about the same as the dole every year
finally got a distance contract i can do in my own time which is great, but its only temporary. id really prefer that life than 9-5 office job though.

Apply to a job with what you've got after 3 years experience you should be quite well paid tbh.

L.Jenkins · 19-10-2015 9:33pm

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Who offers 40-50k for grads here?

In 2011, I was offered 37,000 euro per year + VHI + Pension + upto 5% annual bonus and annual pay increment.

Tar.Aldarion · 20-10-2015 11:45am

Not to get too personal but what are the pay increments like there if you stayed long? Personally I started in a small company with much less pay than that but big bonus' and raises.
That was a great starting package you got there.

The Corinthian · 21-10-2015 1:32pm

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Cost of living in san fran would be nearly twice that of here, of course there are people who live more frugally. Overall they get paid a lot more when you adjust for cost of living even. They get less holidays, less job security is the flip side, also health insurance tied to your job is a thing.

Similar situation in Switzerland. Graduates will get paid somewhere in the regions of 50k - 60k Euro p.a.. Problem is the cost of living is double what it is in Ireland. To demonstrate this, the Franc is about 1.09 to the Euro and an, admittedly organic, chicken costs this. Having said this, taxes are much lower.

Basically, salary is only part of the story; financially tax and cost of living are just as important, and need to weighed up too. All before you consider more intagable benefits and downsides.

Overall, though, it's still a lot easier to save here than in Ireland and what you save will go a lot further in Ireland (or most other countries). Ireland's not a very good place to make money, I'm afraid, especially given it's progressive tax system. Great country to be poor though.

jester77 · 21-10-2015 1:43pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Similar situation in Switzerland. Graduates will get paid somewhere in the regions of 50k - 60k Euro p.a.. Problem is the cost of living is double what it is in Ireland. To demonstrate this, the Franc is about 1.09 to the Euro and an, admittedly organic, chicken costs this. Having said this, taxes are much lower.

Basically, salary is only part of the story; financially tax and cost of living are just as important, and need to weighed up too. All before you consider more intagable benefits and downsides.

Overall, though, it's still a lot easier to save here than in Ireland and what you save will go a lot further in Ireland (or most other countries). Ireland's not a very good place to make money, I'm afraid, especially given it's progressive tax system. Great country to be poor though.

Ah now, that's a bio-chicken

That costs around the same price in my local supermarket. Tastes great compared to the poor mass produced birds that never see day light. But I agree with the rest. Salaries in Germany would only be half what they are in Switzerland, but cost of living is much less. All relative at the end of the day!

The Corinthian · 21-10-2015 2:18pm

jester77 wrote: »

Ah now, that's a bio-chicken

Bio? You've been living in Germany too long - it's organic in English

My point is that salary alone doesn't cover everything, even ignoring services and lifestyle. You have to consider the triad of salary, cost of living and taxation. In this regard, Ireland has a pretty high cost of living, mediocre salaries, and at this stage, pretty high taxes, once you earn even a modest amount.

Tar.Aldarion · 21-10-2015 2:35pm

Yeah that all adds up to ireland not being a great place to work for us. For instance two friends have paid off a $1.5 million house over 5-6 years in the us, they are around 30. Cost of living is dear but tax is low and income is high, two of the three in their favour. They can decide to live frugally and save like 300k a year as it is possible to live cheaper if they try. We have 0.5 of the three? But good living here. Depends on what your priorities are.

I was told that for switzerland it was something like raising to over 100k after a couple years also?

The Corinthian · 21-10-2015 3:21pm

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I was told that for switzerland it was something like raising to over 100k after a couple years also?

Yes, you should be on 100k to 120k after a couple of years. Your total tax bill on that will be between 17% and 30% depending on which canton / municipality you live in. As for cost of living, this might give an idea.

Tar.Aldarion · 22-10-2015 10:26am

Off to the bay area so!

http://uk.businessinsider.com/google-employee-lives-in-truck-in-parking-lot-2015-10?r=US&IR=T

14ned · 22-10-2015 1:27pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

My point is that salary alone doesn't cover everything, even ignoring services and lifestyle. You have to consider the triad of salary, cost of living and taxation. In this regard, Ireland has a pretty high cost of living, mediocre salaries, and at this stage, pretty high taxes, once you earn even a modest amount.

Ireland's got lower taxes than most EU countries though - last year our family total net tax inclusive of everything (income tax, PRSI, USC) was just 27% and after rent and bills we had more than half our gross income left over for spending. That's US-style taxation rates, but you'll need a good accountant and the appropriate tax abstractions in place to achieve it (same as the US actually). If you're PAYE, you are rather screwed in Ireland because there is an enormous hidden subsidy of the highly skilled entrepreneurial class on the basis of I suppose us taking on a lot more risk than PAYE workers.

We're not as wealthy here as we were in Canada though. There we earned $150k per annum and got taxed at 32% all in as PAYE workers. Living costs were low too, we were richer there than we've ever been anywhere we've lived. Schools were high quality and free, healthcare was also free. Just dentists cost (a lot of) money.

Ultimately you pay a premium to live in the EU, and I think Ireland is not a bad place to make a living compared to other EU countries. It's all relative in the end.

Niall

The Corinthian · 22-10-2015 1:57pm

14ned wrote: »

Ireland's got lower taxes than most EU countries though - last year our family total net tax inclusive of everything (income tax, PRSI, USC) was just 27% and after rent and bills we had more than half our gross income left over for spending.

Again, it's not tax, it's not salary, it's not cost of living - it's a combination of all three. You could have low taxes, high cost of living and low salaries and that wouldn't be good either.

I would note this; Ireland has a pretty high cost of living. Across the board, Switzerland is more expensive than Ireland, but often I find it's not that much more and if you want to save it's easier to cut back on your spending than you cut back on how much tax you pay or increase the salary you take in.

beauf · 22-10-2015 1:59pm

Almost everything you buy in Ireland (good and services) seems to be substantially dearer than other countries. Is that factored into cost of living comparisons.

14ned · 22-10-2015 2:27pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Again, it's not tax, it's not salary, it's not cost of living - it's a combination of all three. You could have low taxes, high cost of living and low salaries and that wouldn't be good either.

That outcome could be a lot better than high taxes, high cost of living and low salaries. Much of the developing world could be described as exactly that.

I would note this; Ireland has a pretty high cost of living. Across the board, Switzerland is more expensive than Ireland, but often I find it's not that much more and if you want to save it's easier to cut back on your spending than you cut back on how much tax you pay or increase the salary you take in.

I believe you. According to
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Ireland&country2=Switzerland&city1=Dublin&city2=Zurich despite the cost of living being between 41% and 94% more expensive than Dublin, the much higher income makes the average person in Zurich about 60% better off.

However, not to nit pick, but Switzerland isn't in the EU and therefore doesn't have as high the EU premium of living in the EU. So my earlier statement I think still stands: I still reckon Ireland is amongst the best places in the EU to make a living relative to anywhere else in the EU for entrepreneurial types. It is also, as you mentioned, not too bad a place to be poor relative to say Britain or especially the US.

Niall

14ned · 22-10-2015 2:34pm

beauf wrote: »

Almost everything you buy in Ireland (good and services) seems to be substantially dearer than other countries. Is that factored into cost of living comparisons.

I factor it into my calculations yes, but then I have an Economics degree so I enjoy the maths involved.

Consumer goods are slightly more expensive in Ireland relative to the EU mainly due to higher VAT and the higher cost of transport e.g. stuff in shops is noticeably cheaper just outside Dublin than just outside Cork.

Big ticket items like cars and TVs are far more expensive. Cars because of VAT and the VRT, TVs is mainly price gouging. I bought a Samsung smart TV from Germany for €500 including shipping to Ireland which cost a minimum of €800 here. Same TV, very different approach to profit margins.

Services I personally find cheaper than the EU, except the UK. Insurance here is a bit more expensive than the UK but far cheaper than in the EU. The EU, last time I lived there, had a very backwards and old fashioned service sector with a corresponding lack of efficiency. Canada was the same incidentally, very old fashioned, you couldn't get insurance on a car for a week for example and the insurance people were surprised at the novelty of the idea.

Niall

The Corinthian · 22-10-2015 2:43pm

14ned wrote: »

That outcome could be a lot better than high taxes, high cost of living and low salaries. Much of the developing world could be described as exactly that.

Maybe one of our many compatriots who's emigrated to a developing country for an IT job could care to comment?

I believe you. According to
http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Ireland&country2=Switzerland&city1=Dublin&city2=Zurich despite the cost of living being between 41% and 94% more expensive than Dublin, the much higher income makes the average person in Zurich about 60% better off.

Thing is you can save money if you make an effort here. Shop in Aldi or Denner rather than Coop or Migros. Don't eat out too often. Don't live in Zurich - live just outside, where prices and rent are much lower, but Zurich is still just a 20 minute train ride away. Either way some things are actually cheaper here - like public transport.

However, not to nit pick, but Switzerland isn't in the EU and therefore doesn't have as high the EU premium of living in the EU. So my earlier statement I think still stands: I still reckon Ireland is amongst the best places in the EU to make a living relative to anywhere else in the EU for entrepreneurial types. It is also, as you mentioned, not too bad a place to be poor relative to say Britain or especially the US.

Not sure what this EU premium you keep discussing is. For the honour of living in the EU?

I've lived and worked in both and, hands down, Switzerland is a much, much better place to make a living than Ireland. For entrepreneurial types, I'm undecided, but Switzerland has less paperwork and more investment. You'll also get your invoices paid, unlike Irish cowboy culture - and it's easy enough to get your money if they don't and even charge interest. On the other side, I've a soft spot for Ireland, but that's probably because I grew up there and have a better business network there.

Ireland's definitely a better place to be poor or, more correctly, unemployed though, but that's because there's a stigma against it here, while it's accepted in Ireland as normal.

rojito · 22-10-2015 3:14pm

I have a different perspective that might be of interest,

Around 4 years ago I decided to up sticks and move to a "second-world" economy in South America. After a few months of intensive Spanish lessons I got a job with a company as a Java developer with 0 experience (having previously had about 2 1/2 years c++ experience, so it wasn't that much of a change).

Now, these days on paper my gross salary looks a lot less than any of the numbers on this thread, a modest €26k. But after I remove tax and mandatory deductions (8%) and rent (<€300 a month in an upper-middle class area of the city), I have disposable cash of over €1600 a month. It has been a long time since I lived in Ireland, but I am wondering how this would compare for a comparable lifestyle and position?

Even at that, the €1600 here goes a lot further than it would at home. I wouldn't expect to pay much more than €100 if I took my girl out for dinner in a restaurant with a locally famous chef (as in, he's on TV). In addition, I am about an hours flight from the Caribbean so go diving from time to time.

In short, I haven't paid much attention to gross salaries in a long time, because for me I am very happy where I am at this stage of my life. It may be that even now I could expect more disposable cash at home, I am just not sure I would have as much fun outside of the office.

The Corinthian · 22-10-2015 3:24pm

rojito wrote: »

It has been a long time since I lived in Ireland, but I am wondering how this would compare for a comparable lifestyle and position?

I suspect you're in a better position than many, as when you take tax, costs and salary into account the numbers crunch well.

With one caveat. It'll be a lot harder for you to, for example, retire in Ireland than someone who's made their living in San Francisco or Zurich. Raising the money and paying the mortgage for a home in Ireland in the latter two is much easier than where you are. And I suspect a pension earned in the US or Switzerland will go a lot further in Ireland than one earned in South America.

But if you've no wish or plans to return, then you're sorted

Eugene Norman · 22-10-2015 3:46pm

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

Yeah that all adds up to ireland not being a great place to work for us. For instance two friends have paid off a $1.5 million house over 5-6 years in the us, they are around 30. Cost of living is dear but tax is low and income is high, two of the three in their favour. They can decide to live frugally and save like 300k a year as it is possible to live cheaper if they try. We have 0.5 of the three? But good living here. Depends on what your priorities are.

I was told that for switzerland it was something like raising to over 100k after a couple years also?

The sum total of state, federal and property taxes adds up in California. Thst said they do have a $1m house.

Eugene Norman · 22-10-2015 4:02pm

I have lived in California and never felt rich. The sum total of tax from state, federal, "payroll" etc. adds up.

Putting $120 into a tax calculator for California I find that the total deductions amounted to about 50k. Leaving you with $72k. If you splash out on a two bed in San Francisco you can say goodbye to 36k+ of that and you are going to need a car to get you down to Silicon Valley unless you work in the few employers in San Francisco. The other option is the Bay Area where you pay a premium to be anywhere within walking distance of what would be considered a mediocre town centre in Europe. Rents not much different though.

Gas is cheaper, foods about the same.

Of course you can actually become rich there if stock options go your way.

um7y1h83ge06nx · 22-10-2015 5:00pm

I live in the far-flung area that is Limerick.

At one stage my other half (a Radiographer) was working in Dublin. For a while there was a toss up whether she would make it down to Limerick (she's originally from here) or would I head to Dublin.

In the end she came down. In hindsight we talk about how different things would be in Dublin. She would be on the same salary as she's public sector, while I would be on a bit more being in IT. Life would be a bit more exciting in Dublin with more gigs, concerts, generally a real city buzz.

On the flipside we recently bought a very well specced 3200sqft 2 storey on a 0.7 acre site about 12 minutes from Limerick, for the price of what a semi-d in a decent area of Dublin would cost. I'm also lucky to still own a semi-d in a high demand Limerick suburb that was my home before this move.

All anecdotal of course. I used to work with a guy where both himself and his wife worked in IT in Switzerland. Their take was that they were able to make good money but when the kids cam along things got much more expensive for them and they decided to move back to Ireland (being closer to family was also a major consideration).

14ned · 23-10-2015 2:34pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Not sure what this EU premium you keep discussing is. For the honour of living in the EU?

The EU is one of the most evidence-based governance regions of the world, and it is certainly by far the biggest. No one is claiming it isn't without its pork barrelled spending and stupid inefficiencies, but I am claiming it is less bad at this than anywhere else of a comparable size anywhere in the world. When China and India and South America study what to copy from the West, they try to copy the European social model almost exclusively. Nobody tries to copy the US social model (for good reason).

The "EU premium" essentially derives from empirical testing: studies established back in the 1970s that the average person is terrible at long term decision making, so in the EU we generally take away purchasing power from individuals via income and sales taxes and return that purchasing power in the form of welfare, whether it be of subsidy (e.g. don't tax investment like consumption), vouchers or outright cash handouts (increasingly the latter). We then provide a partial opt-out from that system for the wealthy and educated who tend to be far better at long term decision making than the average person. The key difference in the EU system over any other is that wealthier people get more welfare compared to poorer people, and this is indeed the case in most EU countries with the notable exception of the UK.

None of this happened by chance. It was designed after sequences of empirical trials in various EU countries showed it produced the least worst outcomes compared to alternatives. And no doubt, it's all a bit haphazard with no real unifying ideology. Over the decades EU level technocrats decided EU wide policy on the basis of empirical results in so far as was politically possible, so we ended up where we are today. A reasonable literature review of the relevant papers is Korpi and Palme (1998).

So, to summarise, there is a deliberate policy in the EU to take purchasing power away from the average citizen and give it back to them for their own good. In zero sum terms, we are probably a lot wealthier than the US, we certainly have far better DALYs than the US. But GDP and GNP aren't calculated to include this sort of welfare, so it appears as if we are much poorer.

Hopefully that explains it. You can find a book called "Economists and the Powerful" which explains all this much more. Disclaimer: I cowrote it.

Niall

14ned · 23-10-2015 2:47pm

rojito wrote: »

Now, these days on paper my gross salary looks a lot less than any of the numbers on this thread, a modest €26k. But after I remove tax and mandatory deductions (8%) and rent (<€300 a month in an upper-middle class area of the city), I have disposable cash of over €1600 a month. It has been a long time since I lived in Ireland, but I am wondering how this would compare for a comparable lifestyle and position?

Sounds very similar to my first real job which was in the 1990s in Madrid in Spain. Back then I earned €30k in a country where the average income was €12k at that time. Needless to say, I was very wealthy except when I had to buy computer parts or flights.

I remember my rent was €500/month for a city centre flat, but living costs despite going out partying till 8am every weekend were nothing - you could drink a lot with tapas over six hours and spend only €15. I certainly banked €800/month anyway, I actually couldn't spend it in the free time I had despite the 30 hour week which then was typical for professionals.

A meal at the same restaurant the King and Queen ate at was about €100 a head including superb wine with the food being outstanding. So sounds very similar to your experience with surprisingly similar price levels.

All I'll say is enjoy it, and well done on finding yourself in such a great place!

Niall

daigo75 · 06-11-2015 11:22am

14ned wrote: »

Ireland's got lower taxes than most EU countries though

Not really, based on a report by the IBEC.

Reasonable Salary Expectation?

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