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The dreaded National ID card is on the way. Say no more.

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    #92
    thelordofcheese
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,368 ✭✭✭thelordofcheese


    javaboy wrote: »
    A lot of people seem to be under the illusion that the actual data (criminal records, license points etc.) will be kept on the card itself. That's just fucking stupid. These cards typically don't store that much info and having the information on the card would lead to card hacking anyway.

    I fixed that for you.

    Honestly, how much information do people suppose these as yet imaginary cards could store and transfer, leaving aside the sheer level of mouth breathing stupidity you'd have to be suffering from to even think of storing all the data on the card.
    The easily stolen card.
    For a system designed to stop identity fraud.


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    #93
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    humanji wrote: »
    And if you already have access to all these systems, why the f*ck would you need someones card?
    Nobody has access to all of these systems right now. You might conceivably be able to access them as part of a major criminal investigation, but you'd have to jump through some hoops to get it.

    The danger is in giving a single point of reference that only requires a sufficiently high administration password to access, making it trivial to affect someone's life in a myriad of different ways.

    I'm not saying a national ID card gives that single point of reference, but have we any guarantees that it never will have?
    javaboy wrote:
    It would just be simpler to have the one card where all these things can be referenced from.
    Yes, simpler to do lots of things...


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    #94
    thelordofcheese
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,368 ✭✭✭thelordofcheese


    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    I'm not saying a national ID card gives that single point of reference, but have we any guarantees that it never will have?

    Well seeing as this implmentation of a national ID card exists only in run_to_da_hills head right now, i think we'd be wasting out time asking for assurances on that.

    however, if a national ID card were ever introduced what records it would tie into would be something i'd want to take a good look at before agreeing to carry one.


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    #95
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    DonkeyStyle \o/ wrote: »
    You sure?
    I would have thought it'd store a unique ID number which it can look up in a remote database.
    What'd worry me more is the possibility of someone making a clone of the RFID signature(?) on your card and impersonating you.
    There is every possibility of cloning your unique ID number and RFID signature, The biometric passport was cloned within an hour of the 1st one being issued.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/aug/06/news.terrorism


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    #96
    OPENROAD
    Registered Users Posts: 11,692 ✭✭✭✭OPENROAD


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    There is every possibility of cloning your unique ID number and RFID signature, The first biometric passport was cloned within an hour of production. http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/nov/17/egovernment.


    Link does not work.


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    #97
    javaboy
    Registered Users Posts: 15,094 ✭✭✭✭javaboy


    OPENROAD wrote: »
    Link does not work.

    Censored by the man.


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    #98
    Flamed Diving
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,609 ✭✭✭Flamed Diving


    yAy for lizards!







    Who wrote the tag 'tinfoil wallet'? Genius!


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    #99
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,797 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    I wonder if people when running around the streets just like this, screaming in abject terror over the advent of The Phone Book. "Oh no! If you have my name you have my number! STOP CALLING ME AAHAGAHA!!! :eek:"


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    #100
    humanji
    Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    There is every possibility of cloning your unique ID number and RFID signature, The biometric passport was cloned within an hour of the 1st one being issued.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/aug/06/news.terrorism
    ...in a controlled experiment.

    But there's no doubt that the passports will be forged at some point. But I don't think there's any real way of creating a passport that can't be forged.


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    #101
    javaboy
    Registered Users Posts: 15,094 ✭✭✭✭javaboy


    The dreaded National ID card is on the way. Say no more.

    If only. :pac:


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    #102
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    humanji wrote: »
    ...in a controlled experiment.

    But there's no doubt that the passports will be forged at some point. But I don't think there's any real way of creating a passport that can't be forged.
    The only effective way of securing someones ID is to have them produce a combined biometric passport and to take a thumbprint / retna scan at the same time. This is now common practice on entering the United States.


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    #103
    SimpleSam06
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,048 ✭✭✭SimpleSam06


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    The only effective way of securing someones ID is to have them produce a combined biometric passport and to take a thumbprint / retna scan at the same time. This is now common practice on entering the United States.
    Ha? Not only is there no database of retina scans, there is no policy or practise for the retrieval of retina scans upon entry to the US. Google "security theatre", like a good man.


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    #104
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    SimpleSam06 wrote: »
    Ha? Not only is there no database of retina scans, there is no policy or practise for the retrieval of retina scans upon entry to the US. Google "security theatre", like a good man.
    They are working on that one and they also intend building up a DNA database. Their own forthcoming Identity card put foreward from May 2008 to 2011 will require DNA and Retina or Thump print samples. http://newsblaze.com/story/20080713125624tsop.nb/topstory.html


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    #105
    javaboy
    Registered Users Posts: 15,094 ✭✭✭✭javaboy


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    The only effective way of securing someones ID is to have them produce a combined biometric passport and to take a thumbprint / retna scan at the same time. This is now common practice on entering the United States.

    More effective maybe but not entirely secure.


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    #106
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    There is every possibility of cloning your unique ID number and RFID signature, The biometric passport was cloned within an hour of the 1st one being issued.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/aug/06/news.terrorism

    There you go again with the tabloidyness. Where does it say it was cloned within an hour of the first one being issued? It says they did it in a controlled experiment within an hour of them getting one and srarting their test.


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    #107
    Overheal
    Registered Users Posts: 81,797 ✭✭✭✭Overheal


    Stekelly wrote: »
    There you go again with the tabloidyness. Where does it say it was cloned within an hour of the first one being issued? It says they did it in a controlled experiment within an hour of them getting one and srarting their test.
    Oh I'll the throw the paranoid lad a bone:
    Gizmodo wrote:
    Tests conducted for the UK's Times Online have concluded that the new high-tech e-passports being distributed around the world can be hacked and cloned within minutes. A computer researcher proved it by cloning the chips in two British passports and then implanting digital images of Osama bin Laden and a suicide bomber. Both passports passed as genuine by UN approved passport reader software. The entire process took less than an hour. Initially, the assumption was that cloned chips would be spotted because their key codes would not match those stored in an international database. However, only 10 of the 45 countries participating in the e-passport program have signed up to for the Public Key Directory (PKD) code system, and only five are currently using it. On top of all that, the research also suggests that biometric data could also be manipulated and implemented into fake passports.
    At this point, there has been no evidence to suggest that an e-passport has been successfully cloned and passed off as genuine in a real life situation—but it is bound to happen unless every country buys into the PKD. Even then, I still have my doubts about long term security. We all know that its only a matter of time before someone figures out how to manipulate the system

    See also: http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article4467106.ece


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    #108
    humanji
    Registered Users Posts: 19,976 ✭✭✭✭humanji


    Maybe someone else here read it and can give more detail, but I heard yesterday that they may not be going through with it because they can't afford it. I overheard it from some people, so I don't know if I just picked it up wrong or something. Did anybody else hear the same?


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    #109
    4Xcut
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,248 ✭✭✭4Xcut


    Biffo just doesn't want to change the password to his pc more oftern, sure knowing all of us any info will just be in a big ms word file on someones desktop...either that or just written on scraps of paper in a big file under someones morning coffee.

    Primary reason i am against this is that the Irish government would find some way to fcuk it up.


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    #110
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Excellent detailed article published in today’s Sunday Times (Irish edition) about the National ID and how the Irish Government intends to implement it nationwide by stealth. The article quoted, "Could the new travel pass evolve into a national identity card allowing the state to watch our every move"

    The article is comprehensive and goes on to another full page debate on the travel pass involving into an ID card as what is happening in Scotland and other countries.

    It goes on to tell us that when your RSI (now PPS) number was introduced it was only required by two boidies, ie revenue and social welfare in 1993, it is now it required by a staggering 63 different bodies including An Post, An Garda Siochain,and the legal aid board. Your PPS number will be on this card.

    The article is is a contrast to the rubbish that was published on the same subject by the Independent Newspapers last week, i.e. the Evening Herald. http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/ireland/article4494250.ece


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    #111
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Run_to_da_hills wrote: »
    Its the radio technology that will be used in this type of ID card that is worrying, i.e. it can be read from inside your pocket or hand bag without you knowing. It can be scanned while you enter a building without your knowledge, It can be hacked into without your knowledge and information retrieved, Apart from this I would have no probs carrying a conventional ID card.

    That's old technology, it used to be able to be hacked and was before, teh new security with a lot of private RFID companies is great. If it thinks somebody is trying to tamper with it it destroys the memory block along with a lot more security features. Done a year research on rfid so I have. ;-)


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    #112
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Tara Le d'Arion wrote: »
    That's old technology, it used to be able to be hacked and was before, teh new security with a lot of private RFID companies is great. If it thinks somebody is trying to tamper with it it destroys the memory block along with a lot more security features. Done a year research on rfid so I have. ;-)
    ROFL.... RFID is a desaster and is wide open to abuse!! If not so why dose the USA and other countries now require you to give your thumb print? Why is there so much worry about the current RFID based UK passports and the question of a major recall. http://www.gadling.com/2008/08/09/two-weeks-of-embarrassing-passport-news/print/


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    #113
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    Uh, I already said the older technology was 'open to abuse', it was hacked in America when it was put in runners shoes to monitor vitals etc. I have no idea what model the uk passport is, I have worked on rfid and security for it for a year, like to see somebody write and read off them! I have no doubt the older rfid was shabby and easily hacked, it didn't have much of what mine do. I have a 200 page report on recent advances in rfid security beside me at the moment in fact. There are many private security keys, authentification passing and so on being added now and were added to the ones I was recently using.

    It's hardly a disaster as it makes more and more money every year and will eventually replace bar codes.
    They already make billions from walmart and tesco et al.


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    #114
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Tara Le d'Arion wrote: »
    Uh, I already said the older technology was 'open to abuse', it was hacked in America when it was put in runners shoes to monitor vitals etc. I have no idea what model the uk passport is, I have worked on rfid and security for it for a year, like to see somebody write and read off them! I have no doubt the older rfid was shabby and easily hacked, it didn't have much of what mine do. I have a 200 page report on recent advances in rfid security beside me at the moment in fact. There are many private security keys, authentification passing and so on being added now and were added to the ones I was recently using.

    It's hardly a disaster as it makes more and more money every year and will eventually replace bar codes.
    I would still take RFID as in its early stages, i.e. the Verichip and similar chips are dinosaurs, at 11mm long, they can be cloned quite easily as with many of these chips today.

    I think the UK passports use the same passive system as the Oystercard, i.e. chip and antenna coil. which goes back several years now, the major advances which are worrying is the very low cost and size they can now get them down to, i.e. Hitachi created an RFID chip that is smaller than a grain of sand. the chip can be imbedded in paper, I.e. bank notes, and could be used to track just about anything. The chips do not have GPS capability, but can store a 38-digit number that can be read by a hand held scanner. This chip is 60 times smaller than the first generation Hitachi micro-RFID.

    I can definitely see this technology replacing the barcode on all consumer products. Its advantages are overwhelming from its anti theft capabilities to the fact that you can carry out multi product scanning at check out without removing the products from the shopping basket.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eob532iEpqk


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    #115
    Tar.Aldarion
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,082 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    I have written reports on the Hitachi tiny ones. :)
    Tags can hold far more than 38 digits now. However it doesn't matter if you even get the information from ones like the ones I use as all you get is a stream of hex and such which you need codes to deicpher. The thing in your IBM vid has already been implemented in trials where people paid for the bus journies with rfid tags that they did not even have to take out of their wallets, just get on and off the bus.
    As for the tiny ones, they are passive and so have a range of like 5cm, which can't be easily tracked. Active ones are bigger, more expensive and bulkier but still only have a few hundred metre tracking range with a very expensive scanner. Cheap one we got was 4k...


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    #116
    Run_to_da_hills
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,009 ✭✭✭✭Run_to_da_hills


    Tara Le d'Arion wrote: »
    I have written reports on the Hitachi tiny ones. :)
    Tags can hold far more than 38 digits now. However it doesn't matter if you even get the information from ones like the ones I use as all you get is a stream of hex and such which you need codes to deicpher. The thing in your IBM vid has already been implemented in trials where people paid for the bus journies with rfid tags that they did not even have to take out of their wallets, just get on and off the bus.
    As for the tiny ones, they are passive and so have a range of like 5cm, which can't be easily tracked. Active ones are bigger, more expensive and bulkier but still only have a few hundred metre tracking range with a very expensive scanner. Cheap one we got was 4k...
    Another actual add from IBM, It will be the convenience that will push gullible people into thinking this technology is great, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sDyqhcy1L-0&feature=related

    I have activated my Oystercard in London without removing it from, my wallet inside my jacket as I passed the scanner. I can see new gadgets coming on the market very soon that will be compatible with your toll E-pass such as using them open your automatic gates, your garage door etc as you approach your house or your private apartment car park.


    Active RFID has been used for quite a while for tracking stoled plant from construction sites and hire shops, very smart, I.E. you can trace your stolen JCB by GPS across the country to within 15 feet. The thieves have now got smart to this and can purchase a scanner to detect where these these devices are placed and then remove them and hide them under the seat in some local bus. :D

    The E-pass tags to be used for the M50 are also active RFID based, It will be funny in about a years time to see the chaos when the batteries run flat in all these new tracking devices. :D


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    #117
    hellbent
    Registered Users Posts: 85 ✭✭hellbent


    Getting back to the thread theme of ID cards being introduced, most of the bloggers have no problem with the idea itself, nor do I. It is a convenient one-stop-shop where you need to establish you identity.

    But to make the carrying of it at all times compulsory, with fines, etc., for non-compliance, would be unacceptable to me. Kids from 12 years of age upwards will have the card - who pays their fine for forgetting to carry the card? And since the government loves finding new money-making fines to introduce...expect it to be mandatory to have to carry it at all times for inspection.

    Also, the RFID will certainly be used in the future, when 'security needs to be strengthened in the face of terrorism', etc., to routinely monitor the movement of the population.

    The theory is fine, it's the implementation that gives cause for concern.


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