Have to activate central-heating in order to top up the boiler pressure.

mrcheez · 08-07-2014 11:16am #1

New system installed last year (all new rads / new pipes / new boiler) and 2 zones (upstairs / downstairs), all built according to SEAI requirements.

If the pressure drops in my boiler I would normally expect to just turn the valve 90 degrees to allow water in to the boiler, but it wasn't working so I called the RGI guys over.

It was a different guy to the one that installed my system so after 30 mins or so he figured out that the only way the valve would open was that I needed to turn on my heating while I turned the valve 90 degrees to the left.

Indeed this does allow the water to come through.

I asked the plumber why it was setup like that and his response was along the lines of "This is how the system was setup ... it's built according to SEAI requirements? Ah that would explain it, the <insert some plumber jargon here> has to activate to open the valve"

QUESTION:
So, anyway, it does seem to work, even though it's built oddly. Is there any risk in leaving it like this, or do I have to get the plumbers over to refit the system (and potentially go the legal route if they refuse)?

The RGI has so far failed to respond to my request.

I checked with the boiler company, Worcester Bosch, and they said "it should be fine for a short time, but should be investigated to ensure no damage". I'm not sure why it should be fine for a short time but not a long time?!

P.S. I had an SEAI inspection done after the fitting, he noted a few things (albeit which were fixed), but didn't make any note about the valves being setup incorrectly. Perhaps it's not something normally looked at.

Dtp1979 · 08-07-2014 3:28pm

mrcheez wrote: »

New system installed last year (all new rads / new pipes / new boiler) and 2 zones (upstairs / downstairs), all built according to SEAI requirements.

If the pressure drops in my boiler I would normally expect to just turn the valve 90 degrees to allow water in to the boiler, but it wasn't working so I called the RGI guys over.

It was a different guy to the one that installed my system so after 30 mins or so he figured out that the only way the valve would open was that I needed to turn on my heating while I turned the valve 90 degrees to the left.

Indeed this does allow the water to come through.

I asked the plumber why it was setup like that and his response was along the lines of "This is how the system was setup ... it's built according to SEAI requirements? Ah that would explain it, the <insert some plumber jargon here> has to activate to open the valve"

QUESTION:
So, anyway, it does seem to work, even though it's built oddly. Is there any risk in leaving it like this, or do I have to get the plumbers over to refit the system (and potentially go the legal route if they refuse)?

The RGI has so far failed to respond to my request.

I checked with the boiler company, Worcester Bosch, and they said "it should be fine for a short time, but should be investigated to ensure no damage". I'm not sure why it should be fine for a short time but not a long time?!

P.S. I had an SEAI inspection done after the fitting, he noted a few things (albeit which were fixed), but didn't make any note about the valves being setup incorrectly. Perhaps it's not something normally looked at.

Something sounds wrong. I wonder where on the system is your filling valve. You shouldn't have to ever turn on your heating to pressurise the system. This should be done when cold

mrcheez · 09-07-2014 9:19am

Actually which forum should this be posted in?

Dtp1979 · 09-07-2014 9:51am

mrcheez wrote: »

Actually which forum should this be posted in?

Plumbing and heating

mrcheez · 09-07-2014 10:30am

It's a ghost town ... that or plumbers would prefer to charge for advice

Dtp1979 · 09-07-2014 10:40am

mrcheez wrote: »

It's a ghost town ... that or plumbers would prefer to charge for advice

No we all give hours of free advice on here free of charge, often with no thanks.
I've never seen a system where the boiler had to be turned on to pressurise it, and I've seen alot of systems. Your filling valve must be in an incorrect position

mrcheez · 09-07-2014 10:52am

Is it a big job to swap the valves around? I'm trying to gauge the reaction of the RGI guys as I haven't heard back from them since I mentioned it.

Also is there likely any longterm damage caused by this setup vs standard?

Thanks!

Dtp1979 · 09-07-2014 10:57am

mrcheez wrote: »

Is it a big job to swap the valves around? I'm trying to gauge the reaction of the RGI guys as I haven't heard back from them since I mentioned it.

Also is there likely any longterm damage caused by this setup vs standard?

Thanks!

Honestly, I don't know what kind of setup you have. I'd really have to look at the job to see.

mrcheez · 09-07-2014 11:08am

no worries

Sleeper12 · 09-07-2014 6:26pm

I am not rgi & I don't do gas boilers but I do know you should always fill or top up the system with the boiler off. This is an area of plumbing I haven't been in, in years but unless some new boiler manifacture has changed things (I really doubt it) then I strongly suggest something is wrong.

mrcheez · 09-07-2014 8:27pm

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I am not rgi & I don't do gas boilers but I do know you should always fill or top up the system with the boiler off

Any idea why? What is the risk?

I need to have a backup argument for the RGI.

Dtp1979 · 09-07-2014 9:05pm

mrcheez wrote: »

Any idea why? What is the risk?

I need to have a backup argument for the RGI.

Nobody will know exactly how to diagnose your issue until someone is standing in front of the job I'd say. Where in the country are you based?

mrcheez · 09-07-2014 9:08pm

Dublin, but it's fine i'll get the RGI guys out. It would be good to know what risks are of having boiler on though. Maybe because it would be damaging if pressure accidentally went above 2 or 3 while it's on?

Dtp1979 · 09-07-2014 9:17pm

mrcheez wrote: »

Dublin, but it's fine i'll get the RGI guys out. It would be good to know what risks are of having boiler on though. Maybe because it would be damaging if pressure accidentally went above 2 or 3 while it's on?

Your expansion vessel should absorb the pressure if it's properly charged and the safety valve will release excess pressure once it hits 3 bar. I'd recommend you get a proper second opinion though

K.Flyer · 09-07-2014 9:44pm

Is there any chance of putting up a few pictures of the valve arrangement.
It might help some of us to understand what you are looking at.

mrcheez · 09-07-2014 11:03pm

Here you go

mrcheez · 09-07-2014 11:05pm

Here's the filling valve

K.Flyer · 10-07-2014 9:49am

Hmmm..
Looks like a standard filling loop from the mains. Don't understand the need to have your boiler running in order to fill the system. Unless it has something to do with mains water pressure being particularly poor.
I would be asking for an explanation frrom the installer.

mrcheez · 10-07-2014 11:00am

Well the pump doesn't turn on when the boiler is running, so the water that comes into the system isn't aided pressure-wise, plus my kitchen cold tap comes from the mains and has plenty of pressure.

Does the filling valve take water from the tank (pictured on the right) or the mains? I'm assuming the mains as the tank wouldn't provide any pressure.

K.Flyer · 10-07-2014 10:31pm

It looks like the filling valve is branched off the main supply to the water tank.
Have they offered an explanation yet?
I'd be more concerned that you are loosing pressure regardless of how its filled.

mrcheez · 11-07-2014 12:07am

Nah not yet, having a visit in a week or so.

Eddie694 · 11-07-2014 9:54am

Well what happens if your pressure gets to low? Most boilers wont even fire up if they drop below 0.5 of a bar.

mrcheez · 11-07-2014 11:15am

I already asked, my boiler has a safety backup that prevents this being an issue. I don't know the tech specs, look up Worcester Bosch 34CDi

mrcheez · 07-08-2014 10:43am

Update regarding the issue I'm having: unable to top-up boiler unless heating system is activated.

2 separate plumbers have been out from the RGI company that installed my system. Neither of them could figure out why the water wasn't coming into the system when the boiler was turned off (the actual plumber that installed the system has since left the company).

Is this something the electrician that installed the zoning controls would know?

If the entire RGI can't fix it, what are the next steps? Do I get them to hire another company to look??

Dtp1979 · 07-08-2014 4:07pm

mrcheez wrote: »

Update regarding the issue I'm having: unable to top-up boiler unless heating system is activated.

2 separate plumbers have been out from the RGI company that installed my system. Neither of them could figure out why the water wasn't coming into the system when the boiler was turned off (the actual plumber that installed the system has since left the company).

Is this something the electrician that installed the zoning controls would know?

If the entire RGI can't fix it, what are the next steps? Do I get them to hire another company to look??

They can't see a problem cause it's them that installed it. Get somebody else to look at it

mrcheez · 07-08-2014 5:07pm

I'm assuming they need to pay for the other person to look at it?

It's a problem with their service so why would I need to be liable for it?

Dtp1979 · 07-08-2014 7:48pm

mrcheez wrote: »

I'm assuming they need to pay for the other person to look at it?

It's a problem with their service so why would I need to be liable for it?

Send the bill to them

mrcheez · 07-08-2014 8:31pm

I'd want it in writing from them that I'd be reimbursed before I do that.

Dtp1979 · 07-08-2014 8:37pm

mrcheez wrote: »

I'd want it in writing from them that I'd be reimbursed before I do that.

Ring them and see are they willing to pay somebody independent from them to have a look. I bet they won't though

mrcheez · 07-08-2014 10:53pm

Well i've paid enough for the system installation that they should be handling everything until it's all working.

I guess what I'm asking is what steps are to be taken if they don't end up cooperating and just ignore any further communication.

Go legal straight away or is there some sort of intermediary process?

murphaph · 08-08-2014 7:58am

It'll be cheaper to get an independent opinion at your own cost than get a solicitor to write a letter! It's sh!t that you paid good money for something and haven't got it, but practically speaking you need to get a second (independent) opinion.

The system should not be losing pressure like this anyway. Frequent top ups are a sign of a deeper problem (leak or busted expansion vessel or something) that needs to be found and rectified.

mrcheez · 08-08-2014 10:40am

cheers but I think you might be getting the threads mixed up, this problem is separate to the leak issue.

The leak might actually be fixed now since we put the Fernox in. This issue is that I need to turn on the boiler heating in order to top-up the pressure (say I need to top up the pressure every year or so after bleeding the rads).

It's not a major concern in itself, but Worcester Bosch have expressed concern that it might invalidate my 7 year boiler warranty.

So really the system isn't working as it should, and that is the problem.

The electrician that did the zoning controls is coming over next week for a separate issue so it's possible there's a setting on the controls that is closing the valves unless the system is activated.

Failing that, yes I'll get deWar or someone over... any recommendations on a large company I could get to look at this?

Dtp1979 · 08-08-2014 2:18pm

mrcheez wrote: »

cheers but I think you might be getting the threads mixed up, this problem is separate to the leak issue.

The leak might actually be fixed now since we put the Fernox in. This issue is that I need to turn on the boiler heating in order to top-up the pressure (say I need to top up the pressure every year or so after bleeding the rads).

It's not a major concern in itself, but Worcester Bosch have expressed concern that it might invalidate my 7 year boiler warranty.

So really the system isn't working as it should, and that is the problem.

The electrician that did the zoning controls is coming over next week for a separate issue so it's possible there's a setting on the controls that is closing the valves unless the system is activated.

Failing that, yes I'll get deWar or someone over... any recommendations on a large company I could get to look at this?

Why a large company? Get someone local and well recommended who'll actually give a shjt about the job

mrcheez · 08-08-2014 3:05pm

I'm assuming that a larger company are easier to research online to find out if they know what they are talking about, plus they would have a reputation to uphold, etc.

Probably guaranteed to have insurance in case they damaged the setup too.

I've no way of knowing if Joe Bloggs from up the road will understand the system and be more qualified than the RGI guys I've used.

Dtp1979 · 08-08-2014 3:37pm

mrcheez wrote: »

I'm assuming that a larger company are easier to research online to find out if they know what they are talking about, plus they would have a reputation to uphold, etc.

Probably guaranteed to have insurance in case they damaged the setup too.

I've no way of knowing if Joe Bloggs from up the road will understand the system and be more qualified than the RGI guys I've used.

We'll look where the big boys have left you already. Post your location and maybe somebody could recommend someone good to you

mrcheez · 08-08-2014 3:59pm

Dtp1979 wrote: »

We'll look where the big boys have left you already.

To be honest, I'm glad I went with a big company for this job as, even though there were some slip ups, they have been actively involved in trying to find a solution simply because they have a lot more at stake.

Where there were previous issues they have fixed them with no additional charge and some of the smaller-time setups would have walked a long time ago.

I'm based in Dublin, but I'd still rather get an organization involved rather than a single plumber as 3 separate plumbers from this current RGI couldn't solve the issue (and yes they did know their stuff on other problems so they weren't complete amateurs).

Dtp1979 · 08-08-2014 4:30pm

mrcheez wrote: »

To be honest, I'm glad I went with a big company for this job as, even though there were some slip ups, they have been actively involved in trying to find a solution simply because they have a lot more at stake.

Where there were previous issues they have fixed them with no additional charge and some of the smaller-time setups would have walked a long time ago.

I'm based in Dublin, but I'd still rather get an organization involved rather than a single plumber as 3 separate plumbers from this current RGI couldn't solve the issue (and yes they did know their stuff on other problems so they weren't complete amateurs).

Weren't the 3 guys that called out to you from the same big company???

mrcheez · 08-08-2014 5:15pm

I don't understand your point. Are you claiming they know what the issue is and are refusing to fix it?

I can tell if someone is trying to pull a fast one. They have actively tried different methods to resolve the issue (including re-routing pipes etc... for example bypassing a Magna clean as it may have had a one-way valve) and can't seem to sort it.

Dtp1979 · 08-08-2014 5:42pm

mrcheez wrote: »

I don't understand your point. Are you claiming they know what the issue is and are refusing to fix it?

I can tell if someone is trying to pull a fast one. They have actively tried different methods to resolve the issue (including re-routing pipes etc... for example bypassing a Magna clean as it may have had a one-way valve) and can't seem to sort it.

If 3 different rgi's couldn't solve such a simple issue then it says a lot for their capabilities. Laughable actually.

mrcheez · 08-08-2014 6:26pm

How do you know it's a simple issue?

Like, for example, what are the possible reasons the heating system has to be active for water to come through to top-up the boiler pressure?

Dtp1979 · 08-08-2014 6:36pm

mrcheez wrote: »

How do you know it's a simple issue?

Like, for example, what are the possible reasons the heating system has to be active for water to come through to top-up the boiler pressure?

Chances are it's piped arseways

K.Flyer · 08-08-2014 6:49pm

mrcheez wrote: »

To be honest, I'm glad I went with a big company for this job as, even though there were some slip ups, they have been actively involved in trying to find a solution simply because they have a lot more at stake.

Where there were previous issues they have fixed them with no additional charge and some of the smaller-time setups would have walked a long time ago.

I'm based in Dublin, but I'd still rather get an organization involved rather than a single plumber as 3 separate plumbers from this current RGI couldn't solve the issue (and yes they did know their stuff on other problems so they weren't complete amateurs).

Using a "big" company means absolutely nothing.
A lot of my work is resolving issues on gas and oil boiler installs that were previously attended to by others, including a couple of the "bigger" companies. There are a lot of one-man-show operators who can run rings around any "big" company you care to put in front of them, so don't be knocking the solo guys.
At this stage if they cannot figure where they went wrong they need to step aside and you need to let someone else look at it.

Robbie.G · 08-08-2014 8:27pm

mrcheez wrote: »

How do you know it's a simple issue?

Like, for example, what are the possible reasons the heating system has to be active for water to come through to top-up the boiler pressure?

If the feed pipe to the heating was moved to the other pipe more than likely problem will be resolved.
It seams to be unable to fill due to pressure from possibly a non return valve so when the boiler pump starts it moved the water releaves pressure and let's it fill.

mrcheez · 08-08-2014 8:51pm

K.Flyer wrote: »

Using a "big" company means absolutely nothing.
....There are a lot of one-man-show operators who can run rings around any "big" company you care to put in front of them, so don't be knocking the solo guys.

No I think you're missing the point I'm making. I'm not saying big companies have better plumbers, I'm saying that if something goes wrong they're less likely to "disappear" and can more easily be held accountable.

mrcheez · 08-08-2014 8:54pm

Robbie.G wrote: »

If the feed pipe to the heating was moved to the other pipe more than likely problem will be resolved.
It seams to be unable to fill due to pressure from possibly a non return valve so when the boiler pump starts it moved the water releaves pressure and let's it fill.

Handy thanks. I can provide more pics of the setup if that's any use?

Is there any chance the zoning controls are playing any part in this? The electrician involved is coming over next week for something else so I can ask him to check them.

Robbie.G · 08-08-2014 9:02pm

mrcheez wrote: »

Handy thanks. I can provide more pics of the setup if that's any use?

Is there any chance the zoning controls are playing any part in this? The electrician involved is coming over next week for something else so I can ask him to check them.

It's highly unlikely that there's an electrical issue.
The problems plumbing as the other boys suggested maybe get in a independent plumber to have a look and advise.If you post what part of dublin your in there are some very competent and qualified lads here that would be able to sort you.
If you post more pics follow fill loop to boiler and pipe work all round you would need to take multiple pics so we can see every thing. Is there any other heat source connected to heating

mrcheez · 08-08-2014 9:05pm

Cool, i'll sort the pics in the morn, cheers

K.Flyer · 08-08-2014 9:10pm

I have just been looking again at the picture you posted back on page 2.
What is the current pressure on the boiler?
If the pressure is low and you turn the grey handle on the filling valve can you hear any water movement through the valve?

mrcheez · 08-08-2014 9:16pm

Current pressure is 1.5. Turning the screw on the valve in 2nd pic and I can hear the sound of water. Is the screw what you mean by "handle"?

scudo2 · 08-08-2014 9:16pm

Dtp1979 wrote: »

Weren't the 3 guys that called out to you from the same big company???

Advice thats been given here is from TOP profesional installers, Dpt, Robby,k.flyer and myself+ more, free of charge, were kept busy fixing bigger companys instulations !
Call another good independent installer, in this trade, size isn't always better.
You'll find good and bad on both sides.
To me, (and most installers) heating systems are basic and simple to understand and fix, but I'm in Cork !

Legal route is more expensive.

Ask friends or plumbing suppliers for good local recomandations, never go by big flash add's.
Word of mouth is better.

Recession !!! I'm still turning down work.

K.Flyer · 08-08-2014 9:23pm

mrcheez wrote: »

Current pressure is 1.5. Turning the screw on the valve in 2nd pic and I can hear the sound of water. Is the screw what you mean by "handle"?

Sorry, yes valve slot. (Usually they have a handle).
So pressure is now fine.
So going back over the thread, the original problem was that on one occasion you were told that you had to turn on the boiler to help to increase the pressure, but prior to that there was no need to turn on the boiler to increase pressure. (Do I have that bit right?)
Now that the pressure is up to normal is the boiler operating as it should do, heating water and rads?

Have to activate central-heating in order to top up the boiler pressure.

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