Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie

Maynooth train line ignored - what are our ministers doing.

Options
124

Comments

  • Options
    #92
    AlanG
    Registered Users Posts: 1,415 ✭✭✭AlanG


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I am getting the impression you're not reading the elements of my posts that you don't want to hear.

    What I am saying is that the three level crossings at Clonsilla, Coolmine and Ashtown would effectively be closed at peak times if there was any increase in train frequency, as there simply would not be time to open and close them between trains.

    You seem to be making excuses for the failings of certain politicians.

    Can you simply explain Darts and southern commuter trains can run through level crossings every 10 minutes but us western commuter trains can not have any increase in frequency.

    Also the level crossings issue has no impact on the pathetic service in the evenings and week ends.


  • Options
    #93
    AlanG
    Registered Users Posts: 1,415 ✭✭✭AlanG


    lxflyer wrote: »
    It isn't higher frequency on DART.

    DART is every 15 minutes on the south side of the city where all the crossings are.

    This is simply misleading to fit an agenda - the proposed DART timetable on page 49 clearly has darts every 10 minutes through booterstown between 4:30 and 5:30, and that is just in one direction.


  • Options
    #94
    AlanG
    Registered Users Posts: 1,415 ✭✭✭AlanG


    lxflyer wrote: »
    The line would have to be resignalled and that is not cheap.

    That is why we need our local politicians to care about the area. if Leo and Joan were doing their job they would be fighting for this rather than going to photoshoots launching an increased services through an already better serviced Malahide.

    Leo didn't even know that CIE were looking for submissions on the new timetable.


  • Options
    #95
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    AlanG wrote: »
    This is simply misleading to fit an agenda - the proposed DART timetable on page 49 clearly has darts every 10 minutes through booterstown between 4:30 and 5:30, and that is just in one direction.

    First of all I have no agenda - I'm merely pointing out the realities of railway operations here - so please don't start accusing me of having one. Just because it may not be something you wish to hear, that does not mean that I have an agenda.

    I was quoting the current timetable.

    The new timetable (if and when it's introduced) will have DARTs every 10 minutes between Howth Junction and Bray), but bear in mind that the signalling on that line facilitates more intense movements and the four level crossings are closer together as well which makes it easier to facilitate.

    A fairly clear explanation of how level crossings work was posted here:

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=87627167&postcount=15


  • Options
    #96
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    AlanG wrote: »
    You seem to be making excuses for the failings of certain politicians.

    Can you simply explain Darts and southern commuter trains can run through level crossings every 10 minutes but us western commuter trains can not have any increase in frequency.

    Also the level crossings issue has no impact on the pathetic service in the evenings and week ends.

    I'm not making excuses for anyone - I don't have any interest to declare other than being someone who is a long time user and observer of public transport in Ireland. So please again, stop accusing me of things I am not.

    Well first of all there is no spare rolling stock in service to deliver extra services. There are currently DART sets in storage which are being brought back into service to deliver the 10 minute schedule.

    For more western line services at peak times there would have to be additional rolling stock pressed into service.

    Secondly any increase in service on the Western Line (or indeed elsewhere) will require additional PSO funding from the NTA - that's what is delivering the new Phoenix Park Tunnel service. For that to happen requires people to lobby government to deliver more funding to the NTA. That in turn can be used to cover the operational costs, and repairs to trains to get them back into a serviceable condition.

    Bear in mind that the Northern line has the same level of off-peak service (hourly) - it's not just the Maynooth line.

    However, any further increase in peak service on the Maynooth line is constrained by the fact that there are three busy level crossings at Clonsilla, Coolmine and Ashtown, all of which would need to be eliminated.

    The signalling on the line, length of signalling sections, spacing of level crossings, all of which makes the Maynooth line more problematical.

    For more peak time trains you're going to need:
    * Level crossing elimination
    * More rolling stock
    * Line resignalling


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #97
    AlanG
    Registered Users Posts: 1,415 ✭✭✭AlanG


    lxflyer wrote: »
    The new timetable (if and when it's introduced) will have DARTs every 10 minutes between Howth Junction and Bray), but bear in mind that the signalling on that line facilitates more intense movements and the four level crossings are closer together as well which makes it easier to facilitate.

    This kind of illustrates the point of the thread, our politicians have let our line fall even further behind and we are getting even less of the services. If they ensured there was some investment in the line we wouldn't have such a poor service and such packed trains.

    Lets not forget that we previously had more trains on the route as more of the M3 trains went into town, so unless they downgraded the signalling capacity on the line there should be some room for an improved service. None of the infrastructure problems explain the poor weekend and off peak service.


  • Options
    #98
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    AlanG wrote: »
    This kind of illustrates the point of the thread, our politicians have let our line fall even further behind and we are getting even less of the services. If they ensured there was some investment in the line we wouldn't have such a poor service and such packed trains.

    Lets not forget that we previously had more trains on the route as more of the M3 trains went into town, so unless they downgraded the signalling capacity on the line there should be some room for an improved service. None of the infrastructure problems explain the poor weekend and off peak service.

    Off-peak there were more trains, but they were cut back to hourly because the PSO funding was cut.

    Put bluntly, IE do not have the funding to facilitate any more trains.

    That's the bottom line.

    Any extra trains will require additional funding - that's down to the NTA and in turn the Government.

    Again though, the Northern line also service levels cut - and the entire network has suffered capacity reductions. It's not just the Maynooth line.


  • Options
    #99
    AlanG
    Registered Users Posts: 1,415 ✭✭✭AlanG


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Off-peak there were more trains, but they were cut back to hourly because the PSO funding was cut.
    Put bluntly, IE do not have the funding to facilitate any more trains.
    That's the bottom line.
    Any extra trains will require additional funding - that's down to the NTA and in turn the Government.

    Again this perfectly illustrates the failing of Leo Varadkar for the local area. The Maynooth line has been ignored and even in the new plan where it is planned to make extra funds available they have nothing for Maynooth, M3 or Clonsilla.


    It is a political decision to prioritise empty Western commuter trains and half empty 10 minute DARTs above the Dublin 15 service.


  • Options
    #100
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    AlanG wrote: »
    Again this perfectly illustrates the failing of Leo Varadkar for the local area. The Maynooth line has been ignored and even in the new plan where it is planned to make extra funds available they have nothing for Maynooth, M3 or Clonsilla.

    It is a political decision to prioritise empty Western commuter trains and half empty 10 minute DARTs above the Dublin 15 service.

    Well that kind of decision is down to the NTA - they are responsible for prioritising the service levels on each route. Again the 10 minute DART service has nothing to do with the city centre resignalling - it can operate with the existing signalling. The NTA made a decision that they wanted to increase DART to a 10 minute frequency. Whether they will be "half-empty" remains to be seen - I doubt that will be the case.

    This is the first sign of expansion of the rail service for several years. It will be followed by the Phoenix Park Tunnel services from the Kildare Line in the Autumn. After that, I could certainly see the off-peak service levels increasing on both the Northern and Maynooth lines, but these kind of decisions are being made on a phased basis by the NTA as funding allows. To expect it all at once is a tad unrealistic.

    Money is still tight - and it will be a gradual process. There simply isn't the funding available to deliver everything, it will have to be phased. What you may see in the Autumn is more Maynooth line trains continuing across the loop line bridge to Grand Canal Dock once the city centre resignalling is completed. But again, remember that most of the trains that stop at Connolly then go back out to operate another busy inbound service. Curtailing them at Connolly means they can operate more services with the same amount of trains.

    Similarly resignalling the line and removing the level crossings are major capital projects and will take time (and money) to deliver.

    Keeping everyone happy all of the time is the art of the impossible. I know that's not much comfort, but it's a realistic appraisal of the lie of the land.


  • Options
    #101
    AlanG
    Registered Users Posts: 1,415 ✭✭✭AlanG


    lxflyer wrote: »
    Whether they will be "half-empty" remains to be seen - I doubt that will be the case.

    I have lived on both the northside dart line and the Maynooth line. Most darts on the current frequency are already empty, Maynooth trains operate far closer to capacity. maynooth trains arriving in town at 9:30 am are have a lot of people standing all the way from Coolmine, Darts arriving at the same time are mostly empty. The same for trains departing around 4:30 from the city and Docklands towards Clonsilla, these trains are packed while there are several half full darts running North at the same time.
    Your points regarding Docklands station and trains terminating at Connolly could all be made for the Northern Commuter line but the political will is not there to give fair priority to Maynooth.

    Blaming these things on the NTA is simply a political smokescreen. The paymasters in the ministry ultimately make the decisions.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #102
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    AlanG wrote: »
    I have lived on both the northside dart line and the Maynooth line. Most darts on the current frequency are already empty, Maynooth trains operate far closer to capacity. maynooth trains arriving in town at 9:30 am are have a lot of people standing all the way from Coolmine, Darts arriving at the same time are mostly empty. The same for trains departing around 4:30 from the city and Docklands towards Clonsilla, these trains are packed while there are several half full darts running North at the same time.
    Your points regarding Docklands station and trains terminating at Connolly could all be made for the Northern Commuter line but the political will is not there to give fair priority to Maynooth.

    Blaming these things on the NTA is simply a political smokescreen. The paymasters in the ministry ultimately make the decisions.

    The NTA make the operational decisions.

    Now you can choose not to believe that, but that's the reality.

    They call the shots these days in terms of service planning.

    What they can do operationally, is dictated by the level of funding that is provided to them.

    But politicians don't dictate how many buses/trains operate on each route per hour etc.

    At the risk of repeating myself - there are no trains in the current fleet available to increase the service level at peak times on the Maynooth line. Off-peak could be done, but again Irish Rail would require additional PSO funding to do it from the NTA.

    The bottom line is that there is a limited pool of money there - any increase in service requires additional PSO funding from the NTA.

    They make the operational decisions - have you bothered contacting them? I suspect from your posts that you haven't. That I would suggest would be a better starting point.

    Far better not to focus on other routes when you do - DART and Maynooth line have different driver pools, different trains. So moaning about DART service levels is not going to make a blind difference to Maynooth line service levels.

    I've already posted (several times) what would need to happen to improve Maynooth line frequency.


  • Options
    #103
    AlanG
    Registered Users Posts: 1,415 ✭✭✭AlanG


    lxflyer, Are you a daily user of either the Northern or Western Commuter lines? You seem to have a lot of information on but little understanding of the routes?


  • Options
    #104
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    L1011 wrote: »
    The trains that serve it are above capacity at peak times in their peak direction, though.

    Thats true. But its a shorter journey time. Standing (and the crush) is slightly more bearable is the journey is half the time of the connolly train.


  • Options
    #105
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    AlanG wrote: »
    Again this perfectly illustrates the failing of Leo Varadkar for the local area. The Maynooth line has been ignored and even in the new plan where it is planned to make extra funds available they have nothing for Maynooth, M3 or Clonsilla.


    It is a political decision to prioritise empty Western commuter trains and half empty 10 minute DARTs above the Dublin 15 service.

    I'd have to agree with that. D15 politicians have failed in this regard. Quite a few of them highlighting new building/development of housing, in the area when the transport infrastructure is already unable to cope.

    The 9.30am arriving in Connolly at 10am ish was standing room only before coolmine this morning.


  • Options
    #106
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    daymobrew wrote: »
    2 mins for inbound train, even if it stops at Coolmine (gates open as it passes level crossing.

    When have to timed them being closed for 15 mins (I did see it one time around 4:45pm - 5 trains passed - I used the yellow phone to talk with Clonsilla signalman it was so long).

    The footbridge can be used when the gates are closed.

    I'm not disagreeing you. Just that my experience is not the same as I'm using it at a different time, and also generally avoid that route in the car. I only noticed the gate closing times as time my arrival at the station to be just before it. The foot bridge isn't ideal for me for a number of reasons that are irrelevant. For example I often bring a Folding bike on the train. Lugging it over the bridge is doable, but something I try to avoid. The steps are particular slippery.

    Yes there's a foot bridge. Not sure why you mention that.


  • Options
    #107
    daymobrew
    Registered Users Posts: 6,494 ✭✭✭daymobrew


    beauf wrote: »
    I'm not disagreeing you. Just that my experience is not the same as I'm using it at a different time, and also generally avoid that route in the car. I only noticed the gate closing times as time my arrival at the station to be just before it. The foot bridge isn't ideal for me for a number of reasons that are irrelevant. For example I often bring a Folding bike on the train. Lugging it over the bridge is doable, but something I try to avoid. The steps are particular slippery.

    Yes there's a foot bridge. Not sure why you mention that.
    I mentioned it as a possible solution so that you would not have to arrive 5+ mins before your train:
    beauf wrote: »
    For a train that's stopping, I get the train a lot and I have to be there 5 mins before the train to make it across before the gates close.

    I've carried a loaded buggy over the footbridge a number of times. Yes, doable but I too would avoid.


  • Options
    #108
    daymobrew
    Registered Users Posts: 6,494 ✭✭✭daymobrew


    lxflyer wrote: »
    At the risk of repeating myself - there are no trains in the current fleet available to increase the service level at peak times on the Maynooth line. Off-peak could be done, but again Irish Rail would require additional PSO funding to do it from the NTA.
    Why would Irish Rail required additional PSO funding to increase off-peak services? Are the drivers on 8-ish hour shifts (guessing) and thus would be available to drive the off-peak trains?


  • Options
    #109
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    daymobrew wrote: »
    Why would Irish Rail required additional PSO funding to increase off-peak services? Are the drivers on 8-ish hour shifts (guessing) and thus would be available to drive the off-peak trains?

    Think about it. Do you think that there are lots of drivers being paid to just sit around and do nothing??

    More drivers would be required to increase service levels - that's what has been happening with DART - extra drivers have been recruited to operate the increased frequency.

    Fuel costs money too.

    Any increase in service needs increased PSO funding - the days of the companies operating services and not getting reimbursed properly for it are over.

    No PSO service covers the operating costs from farebox revenue.


  • Options
    #110
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    AlanG wrote: »
    lxflyer, Are you a daily user of either the Northern or Western Commuter lines? You seem to have a lot of information on but little understanding of the routes?

    With respect I have a very good understanding of how the system works, which you do not appear to have.

    Please educate me as to what I've stated that has been incorrect.

    I'm not really sure what you're expecting me to post. I'm posting here as someone who has a deep interest in public transport, who understands how schedules/rosters work and how the actual system works (or not). I don't have any agenda other than that interest, and if by explaining to you that you're not going to see service levels increase overnight is viewed as not understanding the situation, well I'll respectfully disagree. I understand the issue perfectly, but I also understand the obstacles that increasing service levels face, and that's what I've been explaining in my posts.

    To be honest your posts sound like you just don't want to hear the reality of the situation.

    Don't get me wrong I do sympathise with your case - but, I'm pointing out operational realities to you and indeed the fact that the NTA have prioritised the 10 minute DART and Kildare Line to Grand Canal Dock services for funding.

    No amount of posting here is going to change that, but in all seriousness you ought to be contacting the NTA about your issues.

    The reality is that they call the shots.


  • Options
    #111
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    lxflyer wrote: »

    The signalling on the line, length of signalling sections, spacing of level crossings, all of which makes the Maynooth line more problematical.

    For more peak time trains you're going to need:
    * Level crossing elimination
    * More rolling stock
    * Line resignalling

    And the Maynooth line should get all of those, ahead of many other projects.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #112
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    Godge wrote: »
    And the Maynooth line should get all of those, ahead of many other projects.

    Well I would suggest that certainly the re-signalling and level crossing elimination would cost significantly more than the introduction of the 10 minute DART and the introduction of the Kildare Line Phoenix Park Tunnel service (combined).

    Unfortunately it is not straightforward, nor are they projects that can be done quickly.


  • Options
    #113
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Which would increase passenger more?


  • Options
    #114
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    By that logic the Maynooth line will never get the funding it requires. It will always be the most expensive because its been underfunded/under developed the longest.

    So commuters would be wise to stick to their cars, and resist any reduction in road traffic capacity. As that will continue to be their best option. Often their only option.


  • Options
    #115
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    beauf wrote: »
    By that logic the Maynooth line will never get the funding it requires. It will always be the most expensive because its been underfunded/under developed the longest.

    So commuters would be wise to stick to their cars, and resist any reduction in road traffic capacity. As that will continue to be their best option. Often their only option.

    Sorry I deleted my post as I wanted to edit it.

    I would suggest that, at the moment, the major project ongoing, both in terms of specialist staff and monetary cost is the city centre re-signalling project. The other two (DART 10 minute frequency and the Kildare Line to Grand Canal Dock via the Phoenix Park Tunnel) frankly require minimal investment.

    Like it or not cost is an issue right now.

    But I would not be as dismissive as you are in terms of the work not being done. I would like to think that the next major project that they embark on would be to re-signal the Maynooth line and that ought to incorporate dealing with the level crossings at the same time.

    It will have to be done - the current signalling system on the line really is not fit for purpose with signalling sections being too long (i.e. the distance between the signals), and it's a different system to that in use on DART. It's not something that can be left on the long finger for ever.


  • Options
    #116
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    Other than the Docklands train. Very little has changed on the Maynooth line for at least 20+ yrs. The journey time is longer, and has always been heavily overcrowded at peak.

    I'll probably be retired or moved by the time anything is done on this line. Politicians have little interest either.


  • Options
    #117
    ongarboy
    Registered Users Posts: 5,201 ✭✭✭ongarboy


    beauf wrote: »

    So commuters would be wise to stick to their cars, and resist any reduction in road traffic capacity. As that will continue to be their best option. Often their only option.

    Seriously, if you can get into and out of town in rush hour by train in 20-40 minutes (depending on where you depart), surely that will always beat the doubling of such times (at least) a car commute would take? Plus, most workers will not have the luxury of a city centre paid parking space which would add cost. Even if the trains can be uncomfortable due to packed standing room, I still believe it's a better alternative to adding an extra hour or plus a car commute into the city centre would take every day. I would find it odd that anyone who lives and works within walking distance of a train station and doesn't use their car as part of their job would still opt for driving to work (unless they have some medical or mobility issue with regards standing).


  • Options
    #118
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    The train is pretty much ideal for me. I use it most of the time.

    But Door to door. If I going to miss a train, and the next one is 30 mins or longer away. I'll get into work quicker in the car. Most people won't be as close to the train as I am. So for most people the car will probably be quicker door to door. I really dislike driving in traffic so I avoid it as much as I can. However I dislike the crowding, and poor facilities on the trains almost as much.

    So the train at peak isn't really as attractive as it should be.


  • Options
    #119
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    beauf wrote: »
    Other than the Docklands train. Very little has changed on the Maynooth line for at least 20+ yrs. The journey time is longer, and has always been heavily overcrowded at peak.

    I'll probably be retired or moved by the time anything is done on this line. Politicians have little interest either.

    I'm sorry but I have to correct you on this. While you may have a point on passenger numbers, that is a completely wrong statement to make about service levels.

    Here is an analysis of the morning peak and evening peak service levels in 1995, 2005 and 2015.

    Morning peak inbound services before 10:00:

    1995:
    Maynooth to Connolly: 07:08, 07:48 (Starts in Longford), 08:09, 09:15

    2005:
    Maynooth to Pearse: 06:27, 07:00, 07:33 (Starts in Longford), 07:57 (To Bray), 08:15 (Starts in Longford), 09:02

    Maynooth to Connolly: 07:46 (Sligo express to Connolly)

    2015:
    Maynooth to Pearse: 06:20, 06:57 (Starts in Longford), 07:30 (Starts in Longford), 07:55 (To Bray), 08:18, 09:10, 09:45

    Maynooth to Connolly: 06:38, 07:15, 07:45, 08:10 (Sligo express), 08:40, 09:33 (Sligo express)

    M3 Parkway to Docklands: 06:50, 07:10, 07:40, 08:10, 08:35, 09:05

    M3 Parkway to Connolly: 09:40


    Evening Peak services (ex-City) (16:00-19:30):

    1995:
    Connolly to Maynooth: 16:10, 17:05 (Friday Only Express Connolly to Sligo), 17:15 (To Longford), 18:00, 18:30 (Express to Sligo)

    2005:
    Pearse to Maynooth: 16:03, 16:22 (express Connolly-Coolmine), 17:40 (Starts from Bray), 18:08 (Starts from Dun Laoghaire), 18:50 (To Longford), 19:07

    Connolly to Maynooth:17:05 (Friday Only Sligo Express), 17:15 (To Longford), 18:15 (Express to Sligo)

    2015:
    Pearse to Maynooth: 16:09, 16:38, 17:37 (From Bray), 18:10 (From Bray), 18:30, 18:59

    Connolly to Maynooth: 17:05 (Sligo Express), 17:15 (To Longford), 17:28, 18:05 (Longford Express), 18:10, 19:05 (Sligo Express)

    Docklands to M3 Parkway: 16:30, 16:55, 17:25, 17:55, 18:25, 18:55, 19:25

    That certainly does not strike me as very little changing between 1995 and 2015.

    Incidentally on journey times:

    The 07:48 departure in 1995 took 44 minutes to get to Connolly, the 07:57 departure in 2005 took 46 minutes, and the 07:55 in 2015 took 44 minutes.

    Off-peak trains probably do take longer with the additional stations that have been opened over that 20 year period at Drumcondra and Navan Road Parkway.


  • Options
    #120
    beauf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 22,651 ✭✭✭✭beauf


    lxflyer wrote: »
    I'm sorry but I have to correct you on this. While you may have a point on passenger numbers, that is a completely wrong statement to make about service levels.

    Here is an analysis of the morning peak and evening peak service levels in 1995, 2005 and 2015....

    ...including trains express trains to Sligo lol.

    I didn't say it hadn't changed, but that very little had changed. In the context of overcrowding and the journey time.


  • Advertisement
  • Options
    #121
    LXFlyer
    Registered Users Posts: 17,560 ✭✭✭✭LXFlyer


    beauf wrote: »
    ...including trains express trains to Sligo lol.

    I didn't say it hadn't changed, but that very little had changed. In the context of overcrowding and the journey time.

    It is fair to include the Sligo services as they serve Maynooth and anyone travelling between Maynooth and Connolly can use them.

    There has been an increase in the number of services - your earlier post certainly implied there had not.


Advertisement