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An absolute disgrace (flooding on our new roads)

2»

Comments

  • #52
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    stiktoir wrote: »
    It is:
    'Corporal Jones!'
    'Yes Captain Mainwaring'

    What on earth has this spoofing of yours to do with roads flooding ???


  • #53
    A Dub in Glasgo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,286 ✭✭✭✭A Dub in Glasgo


    ongarite wrote: »
    We had a once in 50yr rain yesterday, no country no matter how ****ty can prepare for that. It happens in UK, France, Germany, USA, etc......

    Didn't it happen 22 years ago?


  • #54
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    Didn't it happen 22 years ago?

    South of the river and in Wicklow that time. :cool:

    I take it you mean Hurricane Charley ( sic) , thankfully yesterdays cloudburst had the decency to visits the northside instead :)


  • #55
    amacachi
    Closed Accounts Posts: 23,316 ✭✭✭✭amacachi


    stiktoir wrote: »
    Exactly. If the Brits think it's the end of the world then that proves it. It is:
    'Corporal Jones!'
    'Yes Captain Mainwaring'
    'Tell the men to panic'

    "We're dooomed, doomed' (pvt Fraser-Murphhhhaaaphhhhhh)

    You said we irish whinge a lot, and I pointed out that other countries are the same, so I was wondering who we whinge a lot in comparison to.


  • #56
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »
    Didn't it happen 22 years ago?

    That might be true, but statistically it would still be a once in 50 years. It's been a while since I was in this profession, but I iirc highway engineers would design for once in 20 or 25 years events.


  • #57
    bauderline
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 899 ✭✭✭bauderline


    THE N3 FLOODED IN 2002 and AGAIN IN 2003 !!!

    I don't care about how much rain fell yesterday. What does interest me is the fact that enough rain has fallen several times in the last 6 years to cause widespread flooding in Dublin.


  • #58
    Sponge Bob
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 25,234 ✭✭✭✭Sponge Bob


    tricky D wrote: »
    That might be true, but statistically it would still be a once in 50 years. It's been a while since I was in this profession, but I iirc highway engineers would design for once in 20 or 25 years events.

    The " Mount Merrion Thunderstorm " of 1963 also had the decency to stay south of the Liffey and was for many years considered to be the record daily rainfall event in all of Ireland , 180mm in a day, 80mm of that in one hour.

    I would tend agree with tricky that yesterdays floods possibly were a 1 in 50 year event on the Northside, maybe a 1 in 25 year event on the Southside though :cool:


  • #59
    Glyni
    Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭Glyni


    How can you say the flood was a once in 50yr occurance. It is only 6 years since the tolka burst its banks and caused chaos. Houses were ruined in Drumcondra because the drainage could not cope with the water. The residents tried to clear them themselves but all the drains were blocked with leaves. The drains would not have stopped the river rising but they would have minimised the damage. The fact here is we have not learned anything from the events of the past.


  • #60
    tricky D
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,700 ✭✭✭tricky D


    Glyni wrote: »
    How can you say the flood was a once in 50yr occurance. It is only 6 years since the tolka burst its banks and caused chaos. Houses were ruined in Drumcondra because the drainage could not cope with the water. The residents tried to clear them themselves but all the drains were blocked with leaves. The drains would not have stopped the river rising but they would have minimised the damage. The fact here is we have not learned anything from the events of the past.

    It's the rainfall which statistically is a once in 50 year event not the flooding. You touch on an important issue though, which is that local conditions and other variables not so directly related to the weather can exacerbate flooding. And yes, the authorities aren't the best at learning from past events as demonstrated by their rezoning of flood plains, lack of drain maintenance and so on.


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  • #61
    Zoney
    Registered Users Posts: 1,639 ✭✭✭Zoney


    As if it wasn't bad enough that things are never organised well enough in this country (contingency for floods in this case, and response when it does occur), you have to endure all the eejits who give out to you if you so much as suggest things are shoddily done here.

    The fact of the rain being a freakishly huge amount yesterday is irrelevant. The flooding began well at the start of the downpour. Also even if the flooding was unavoidable (which it probably was - many locations would have eventually have flooded even with better drainage), the response to it was certainly absolutely pathetic and laughable. People seem not to realise just how important it is to keep major arteries open - we seem to be stuck in an 80s mentality of times when it didn't matter so much and sure we just had to put the feet up while it was all fixed. Time is now, more than ever, money. It's pathetic that is has taken to near the end of the 2000s to fit permanent VMS signs around the place for one thing!


  • #62
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    Zoney wrote: »
    As if it wasn't bad enough that things are never organised well enough in this country (contingency for floods in this case, and response when it does occur), you have to endure all the eejits who give out to you if you so much as suggest things are shoddily done here.

    The fact of the rain being a freakishly huge amount yesterday is irrelevant. The flooding began well at the start of the downpour. Also even if the flooding was unavoidable (which it probably was - many locations would have eventually have flooded even with better drainage), the response to it was certainly absolutely pathetic and laughable. People seem not to realise just how important it is to keep major arteries open - we seem to be stuck in an 80s mentality of times when it didn't matter so much and sure we just had to put the feet up while it was all fixed. Time is now, more than ever, money. It's pathetic that is has taken to near the end of the 2000s to fit permanent VMS signs around the place for one thing!

    Leaving aside the fact that there is a drainage issue on the N3, I would not agree with what you are saying. 76mm of rain fell in a very short space of time - which is a huge amount. I have seen the same chaos occur in other countries where there are much greater extremes of weather conditions and you would believe that they would be ready for it. We are talking a few hours of inconvenience and 'chaos' but you make it sound like the end of the world. I drove the N3 today and apart from tyre marks on the median you wouldn't know anything occured yesterday.


  • #63
    lostexpectation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,082 ✭✭✭lostexpectation


    i got the impressin that many people chose to make unnessecary journeys.


  • #64
    Fighting Irish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,065 ✭✭✭Fighting Irish


    Zoney wrote: »

    The fact of the rain being a freakishly huge amount yesterday is irrelevant. The flooding began well at the start of the downpour. Also even if the flooding was unavoidable (which it probably was - many locations would have eventually have flooded even with better drainage), the response to it was certainly absolutely pathetic and laughable. People seem not to realise just how important it is to keep major arteries open - we seem to be stuck in an 80s mentality of times when it didn't matter so much and sure we just had to put the feet up while it was all fixed. Time is now, more than ever, money. It's pathetic that is has taken to near the end of the 2000s to fit permanent VMS signs around the place for one thing!

    OK so what if the roads were set up to not flood as long as less than 8cm of rain falls? what happens when 10cm falls, how high do we go?


  • #65
    IIMII
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭IIMII


    lostexpectation wrote: »
    i got the impressin that many people chose to make unnessecary journeys.
    Hmmm. Well, I spent Saturday in Belfast and got back to Meath that night. No rain in Belfast on Sat at all. Then on a nice sunny Sunday afternoon (about 12) we took off for Croke Park and heard on the radio that the M50 was suffering delays northbound. No mention that the N3 was closed on any station and we were stuck in traffic there for an hour and a half

    There were no warning signs on approaches, even on the N3, the traffic just ran into a major bottle neck at Blanch with only the shopping centre exit available to use.

    To decide whether your journey is nessessary, you need to know there is a problem. In the end we turned around and took a train from Clonsilla

    Complete joke. At least in Croke park updates were given on the big screen


  • #66
    bauderline
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 899 ✭✭✭bauderline


    Some of you don't seem to be getting this, no one is debating the fact that a lot of roads will flood given such a huge downpore of rain, it cannot be helped. However what I am saying is that is unacceptable for the N3 to flood and moreover for the M50 to flood !!

    I think that is the point that we are trying to make !

    If people don't stand up and complain things never get fixed and attitudes amongst some people will become lax...

    We need to complain more loudly and more often !! Get used to it !

    P.


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  • #67
    Glyni
    Registered Users Posts: 112 ✭✭Glyni


    Well said bauderline.

    it is important to note most of the roads that flooded are ones the council have recently been working on. can we assume they are the ones blocking the drains and that if they bothered to clean up after themselves we wouldn't have so many problem's.


  • #68
    faceman
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators Posts: 16,649 CMod ✭✭✭✭faceman


    bauderline wrote: »
    Some of you don't seem to be getting this, no one is debating the fact that a lot of roads will flood given such a huge downpore of rain, it cannot be helped. However what I am saying is that is unacceptable for the N3 to flood and moreover for the M50 to flood !!

    I think that is the point that we are trying to make !

    If people don't stand up and complain things never get fixed and attitudes amongst some people will become lax...

    We need to complain more loudly and more often !! Get used to it !

    P.

    So what have you done to complain about it other than ranting on a message board?


  • #69
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,814 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    I have to say that some things did work; the south city (where I happened to be) stayed very clear.

    On the face of it, I would have thought that it would have been easier to keep a modern road surrounded by a fair amount of open land free of water during a flood, than to keep an old city which is fully built up and with old drains clear.

    I'd say we were lucky on a few things:

    - it wasn't a rush hour
    - it was summer, so there was good visibility for services
    - the tides weren't abnormally high (I am assuming)
    - it wasn't mid- or late-autumn, so there weren't a lot of leaves flying about and getting into the drains


  • #70
    IIMII
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,366 ✭✭✭IIMII


    The south city used to flood but it was sorted out centuries ago, mostly. The N3 passes by large areas that in some cases were flood plains of the Tolka

    I think we need to distinguish what is an act of God and what is an act of wasters

    Heavy rain is an act of God.

    Blocking shores, poor media communication and the absence of plans to deal with known flood problem areas are all acts of beaurocratic wasters


  • #71
    MadsL
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,299 ✭✭✭✭MadsL


    CONSIDERATION SHOULD be given to restoring floodplains on farmland to prevent a recurrence of what happened in Newcastle West, Co Limerick, An Taisce has proposed.

    The organisation believes the traditional methods of dealing with floods such as fortifying river embankments and raising the ground level of new buildings are actually contributing to the problem.

    An Taisce heritage officer Ian Lumley said using agricultural land as a floodplain, which would mean that fields bordering rivers could be used just for grazing, is a controversial measure which would be opposed by farmers.

    However, he said dealing with the kind of flash floods which occurred in Newcastle West is now a more pressing issue because of global warming, which will see rainfall becoming more intense and localised.

    "Internationally, the whole focus of government policy across Europe has been to support the reclamation of land for agriculture purposes. The result is that this has narrowed and speeded up the waterfalls of Irish and major European rivers, making them much more susceptible to flooding," he said.

    "The answer is to restore the upstream capacity of the river basin to absorb floodwater. That was always the case with rivers in the past. I know it's a radical solution. The issue of compensation for farmers would be controversial, but if we really want to protect towns like Clonmel, Carrick-on-Suir, Fermoy and Mallow, we need to look seriously at this."

    A public meeting of those affected by the flooding in Newcastle West took place at the Ballintemple Inn in the town yesterday evening. A fund to help those worst-hit has been set up by the local Lions club.

    The flash floods occurred when 92mm of rain (some four inches) fell in the space of a couple of hours on Thursday night and early on Friday morning last week.

    The rains caused the river Arra to burst its banks for the first time in living memory. Damage is likely to run into millions of euro, as at least a dozen houses and businesses were destroyed by the flood.

    Newcastle West local councillor Patrick O'Donovan said: "Some people have been literally left with nothing. They were left with the clothes on their back. They are looking for assistance to restore their dignity and their houses."

    Those who wish to contribute can do so at any AIB branch, to a special account whose number is 02019032, sorting code 93 52 39.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0808/1218142761597.html

    Think they are making a vaild point, the more you bank and levee watercourses, the more they have a tendancy to silt up and rise anyway. Is there a hydrologist employed by DCC, DLR, SCD et al?


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  • #72
    MOH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,465 ✭✭✭MOH


    There seems to be a feeling that since it was just rain, the system should have been able to deal with it, ignoring the fact that it was a very unusual amount of rain. Would people have the same reaction complaining that roads everywhere were blocked if 5cm of snow had fallen in the same period?


  • #73
    paulm17781
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,858 ✭✭✭paulm17781


    MOH wrote: »
    There seems to be a feeling that since it was just rain, the system should have been able to deal with it, ignoring the fact that it was a very unusual amount of rain. Would people have the same reaction complaining that roads everywhere were blocked if 5cm of snow had fallen in the same period?

    But it took over 24hrs (and a lot of trucks) to get rid of it. Surely it should drain by itself? Looking around the city where nearly every second drain is blocked or inadequate, one has to wonder why we don't have bigger or working drains. Last week on Mountjoy sq. I saw a load of water running past a drain beside the kerb, little or no water was actually running in to the drain. It's this kind of bad design / lack of maintenance is the problem.


  • #74
    aquascrotum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 466 ✭✭aquascrotum


    Drainage systems for the NRA are generally built to take a 1 in 50 year storm without flooding.

    There is no such thing as designing any structure to "never" flood, short of elevating the whole thing on stilts. The 1 in 50 is effectively a Europe wide standard (UK to the best of my knowledge is 1 in 30, or was a couple of years ago) and is a pinchpoint at which to provide more capacity becomes economically unfeasible.

    The Greater Dublin Strategic Drainage Strategy for new development is a landmark document which at present is rigidly enforced, and believe it or not is admired and copied (or is in the process of being copied) by a lot of other agencies outside Ireland. The problem is that it cannot undo the amount and nature of practically unrestricted development of the preceding years. Local authorities are still playing catchup in terms of finding out what is in the ground from older development - the problem is not of the current lots making.

    Saturday was inevitable given the rainfall volume - large areas of ground were saturated from the preceding weather, rivers were unusually high for this time of year, roadworks on the M50 have affected existing drainage going on the areas of standing water present during previous rainfall the last few weeks. All that can be done is learn from the mistakes in terms of poor maintenance in places, and this flooding will be used to pinpoint areas where remedial work is required.

    The good news is that it's probably going to become a more regular occurrence giving the predictions for global warming.....


  • #75
    shoegirl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,021 ✭✭✭shoegirl


    steyr fan wrote: »
    It is such a waste of money paying planners. Waste. Waste.

    The problem isn't the planners, they quite reasonably make recommendations which councillors with heavily vested interests then ignore. The problem is that its still considered to be perfectly ethical for a local politician in Ireland to make a binding decision on something which will personally enrich him/her.

    There are definitely issues with poor drain maintenance, likewise we are already into autumn leaves (certainly I am out sweeping the terrace regularly again) so drains are likely to be blocked. Gravel is most definitely blocking drains, especially in areas which were subjected to roadworks (and I suspect its quite possible to be an issue on the M50 after a couple of years of works).

    I do recall my Dad telling me about the big job the corpo used to run every year to keep the drains clear on Griffith Ave. I reckon a lot of "mature" 1960s and early 1970s housing estates with trees on the roadside are into the same kind of problem.

    Secondly, I recall reading sometime after the major flood in Blackpool, Cork city, a few years back, that an investigation discovered huge levels of illegal dumping in their brand new drainage system, which had massively contributed to the flooding. I would suspect that this is likely to be the case in other areas too.


  • #76
    MOH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,465 ✭✭✭MOH


    Deleted User wrote: »
    You mean this flood! (M50 near Ballymun)

    Ah, is this the famous new "E-flow" system?


  • #77
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    and we know that the "E" stands for! :eek:


  • #78
    ozt9vdujny3srf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,152 ✭✭✭ozt9vdujny3srf


    Planning for that level of rain would be a complete waste of money. There is a lot of stuff that needs money spent on it more then building pricey drainage systems for extremely rare biblical levels of rain.


  • #79
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,345 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    i drove in on the n4 east on the newly built freeflow section that had one lane in the dip under water. I just wondered how it never occured to someone to put a little hole in the sidewall to allow water to drain out. Surely civil engineering is advanced enough to anticipate and alleviate excess water. Unless of course the design was to allow one sloped lane to remain open in which I salute that half effort.


  • #80
    Quint
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,407 ✭✭✭Quint


    There was a lot of rain on saturday, but these floods are certainly more than a 1 in 50 year occurance.
    I'm sure everyone will be delighted to hear that I made it through the city handy enough on a motorcycle at about 7:30, sailed past the traffic, near croker too.
    It was funny seeing 2 lads ignore the diversion around a flood outside Glasnevin Cemetry in their Starlet, drove through it to save about 2 minutes, and their car conked out right in the middle of it!


  • #81
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    aquascrotum wrote: »
    All that can be done is learn from the mistakes in terms of poor maintenance in places, and this flooding will be used to pinpoint areas where remedial work is required.
    The N3 has now flooded like this 3 times since 2002 in the same spot. Yes, the Tolka runs alongside. However, remedial works took place along here and they took a considerable amount of time to complete. They appear to have created a functioning dyke, ie, it prevented water getting from the Tolka to the road but it also prevented water getting from the road to the Tolka! The fact the water was still sitting there 12 hours later is testament to this.

    This is a national primary artery into and out of Dublin which serves a major industrial/commercial/residential area to boot. They should have pumps capable of extracting the water from the lowest point on the N3 at this location and depositing it over the dyke into the river.

    Most of the problems weren't because there was no high tech solution like this. Most of the problems were because the ordinary drains do not get cleared out enough.

    Also, roads which were clearly impassable remained open for hours. There's no coordinated plan. It's all a bunch of headless chickens running the show.


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  • #82
    antoinolachtnai
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,814 ✭✭✭antoinolachtnai


    Are they saying that Saturday was a 1 in 100 year or less frequent event? It was a lot of rain, but I just find that hard to believe. What are the statistics on this?

    I suspect that part of the problem is that the ground was already soaked before Saturday.

    I think that ten years ago, the south city would have been a lot worse. We used to have massive puddles on every corner when there was a few hours of rain.


  • #83
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Check out the weather forum on Boards.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055344611

    One post said
    The return period for 24 hour fall of 76mm at Dublin AP is 50 years, BUT, 9th Aug 08 saw 76.2mm, 14 Nov 02 saw 74.6mm, 5 Nov 00 at least 63mm, 11 jun 93 at least 82.3mm......
    Perhaps these return periods need to be looked at again and shortened considerably.

    10/11 June 93 was worse, especially on the Southside, to say nothing of Hurricane Charley in 87.


  • #84
    aquascrotum
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 466 ✭✭aquascrotum


    murphaph wrote: »
    The N3 has now flooded like this 3 times since 2002 in the same spot. Yes, the Tolka runs alongside. However, remedial works took place along here and they took a considerable amount of time to complete. They appear to have created a functioning dyke, ie, it prevented water getting from the Tolka to the road but it also prevented water getting from the road to the Tolka! The fact the water was still sitting there 12 hours later is testament to this. .

    Were the works you speak of flood alleviation for the Tolka or improvements to the drainage from the N3? Two different schemes with different aims, and not necessarily mutually beneficial. In my post I mentioned that older development is to blame - whilst fairly recent I'd say the N3 falls under that bracket. Inadequate design pre-GDSDS, crap planning at the time, and failure to protect main routes (so as to allow potential improvement works) is chronic in this country and we'll live with the consequences for years.
    murphaph wrote: »
    Also, roads which were clearly impassable remained open for hours. There's no coordinated plan. It's all a bunch of headless chickens running the show.

    Sums up everything in Ireland in my relatively brief experience....


  • #85
    Jip
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,418 ✭✭✭Jip


    ardmacha wrote: »
    10/11 June 93 was worse, especially on the Southside, to say nothing of Hurricane Charley in 87.

    From my limited knowledge and reading of that board I think it depends on what 24hr period you use, midnight to midnight it has been the worse August day ever but I think the other 24hr period used is something like 6pm to 6pm or 9pm to 9pm, can't remember the exact time now.


  • #86
    Heroditas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,557 ✭✭✭Heroditas


    Well I had to take an alternative route this evening. Went through Phoenix Park and out the Knockmaroon Gate and was met with a river of water flowing down Sommerton Road into Strawberry Beds. One car ahead of me just about managed to get through but the car directly in front of me did a u-turn and so did I. It was getting deeper by the second. I might have managed to get through it but I wasn't too keen on getting my feet wet if the car cut out in it. :P


  • #87
    darkman2
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 8,632 ✭✭✭darkman2


    N3 is closed again after serious flooding at Blanchardstown. Flooding on the M50 also. More heavy rain tomorrow.


  • #88
    Random
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,080 ✭✭✭✭Random


    M50 southbound apparently closed at Finglas / Ballymun too? Now, it's happened twice in 4 days. I know it's all related but really it's a mess.

    From what I seen on Rte the garda / Council out a bit earlier today making sure roads are closed off (didn't see anyone stuck in the N3 photos on RTE) so I guess that may be a step forward .. I hope they're out in force on traffic duties.


  • #89
    Random
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,080 ✭✭✭✭Random


    random wrote: »
    M50 southbound apparently closed at Finglas / Ballymun too? Now, it's happened twice in 4 days. I know it's all related but really it's a mess.

    From what I seen on Rte the garda / Council out a bit earlier today making sure roads are closed off (didn't see anyone stuck in the N3 photos on RTE) so I guess that may be a step forward .. I hope they're out in force on traffic duties.
    I read this off the AA Roadwatch website. This information may not be up to date and accurate even when posted, was basing it on the AA Roadwatch website which seems very slow to update to be honest.


  • #90
    Irjudge1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 377 ✭✭Irjudge1


    To all those who believe we alone have infrastructure which can deal with limited weather conditions check out Belfast.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/7565593.stm


    Page last updated at 23:51 GMT, Saturday, 16 August 2008 00:51 UK
    E-mail this to a friend Printable version

    Widespread chaos caused by floods

    As much as three-quarters of the August rainfall fell in a single day
    Torrential rain has caused widespread flooding across Northern Ireland, with rivers bursting their banks, landslides and roads cut off.

    Police also said two bridges had collapsed and 37 major roads were shut down, including part of the M1 motorway, and a train had derailed.

    The Fire and Rescue Service had helped people from their homes in Belfast, counties Down, Armagh and Antrim.

    NI Water said its resources had been "overwhelmed" by the deluge.

    Some places in central and eastern Northern Ireland saw up to three-quarters of the August rainfall in a single day.

    Portglenone in County Antrim had 62mm of rain in 12 hours

    The newly constructed Broadway Underpass in west Belfast was under 15ft of flood water, and a train derailed in Country Laois after a landslide on the track.

    A section of the central barrier of the Westlink in west Belfast was cut with angle-grinders to allow traffic to be turned away from deep flood water.

    Police warned drivers in south Belfast that manhole covers had been lifted out of place and carried along by flood water.

    They have also urged motorists not to undertake any journeys unless they were extremely urgent.

    "The floods are all over Northern Ireland," said a police spokeswoman.


    Motorists battle the floods in Castlereagh, east Belfast

    "Portglenone and Aghadowey are practically cut off, it seems. There have been several landslides, including one about one mile from the Spelga Dam on the Slievemaman Road in Newcastle, Co Down."

    Newcastle Town Hall and the town's Presbyterian church were opened as shelters for those affected by the floods, as was Watty Grahams GAA club in Maghera, Co Derry.

    One of the collapsed bridges is at Fairy Glen, Rostrevor, Co Down and the other is on the Lurgan to Cahone road at Rathisland.

    The Northern Ireland Fire and Rescue Service said there had been ground-floor flooding in Belfast, Down and Armagh, and that every single one of its fire appliances was in use.

    Events cancelled

    Crews have been pumping water away from homes in Carrington Street in East Belfast and residents were taken to emergency accommodation in the nearby Avoneil Leisure Centre.

    The Ballygawley Road and the Cookstown area of County Tyrone were among those flooded, and part of the Shore Road on the outskirts of north Belfast was closed after floods brought down a wall.

    Sporting fixtures, including several Carnegie Irish Premier Division football matches, were also hit, and the Ulster Grand Prix at Dundrod, Co Antrim was cancelled.

    Organisers earlier had to cancel Saturday's Ulster Grand Prix at Dundrod.

    NI Water said their personnel had received almost 3,000 calls which they were dealing with along with the Rivers Agency and Roads Service.

    A spokesperson said persistent and heavy rain following three weeks of exceptional climatic conditions had caused the flooding.


    The new Broadway underpass is under 20 feet of flood water

    "No system is equipped to deal with such intense rainfall which means that systems have become overwhelmed in some areas.
    "Staff and contractors from all three drainage agencies (Rivers Agency, Roads Service and NI Water) are working with the Fire and Rescue Service and are responding to all reported incidents as soon as possible.

    "However, resources have been overwhelmed due to the scale of this event. All our sympathies are with any residents affected in what is clearly a distressing experience for everyone."


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  • #91
    watty
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 32,417 ✭✭✭✭watty


    My Granny had a shop near Broadway, lower Donegal Rd. That area, near the Water meadows used to flood regularly. Her shop rarely since is was a little further up. My Grandparents sold it and retired in 1969 at 71 & 68 years old.

    I remember heavy rain blocking the Cregagh Rd, parallel to Castlereagh Rd in belfast blocking it in about 1978/1979/1980. The water was actually fountaining about a 1ft into the air from the drains at the lower parts of the road. Big 1ftx2ft drains!


  • #92
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    murphaph wrote: »
    The N3 has now flooded like this 3 times since 2002 in the same spot. Yes, the Tolka runs alongside. However, remedial works took place along here and they took a considerable amount of time to complete. They appear to have created a functioning dyke, ie, it prevented water getting from the Tolka to the road but it also prevented water getting from the road to the Tolka! The fact the water was still sitting there 12 hours later is testament to this.

    This is a national primary artery into and out of Dublin which serves a major industrial/commercial/residential area to boot. They should have pumps capable of extracting the water from the lowest point on the N3 at this location and depositing it over the dyke into the river.

    Most of the problems weren't because there was no high tech solution like this. Most of the problems were because the ordinary drains do not get cleared out enough.

    Also, roads which were clearly impassable remained open for hours. There's no coordinated plan. It's all a bunch of headless chickens running the show.

    Would I be correct in saying that it is not legal for any of the above to happen? I thought there was environmental regulations that would prevent run-off from roads (which contain pollutants) being pumped directly into water courses e.g. the Tolka without treatment?

    Having said that, there is an obvious issue with the section of the N3 in question which is probably caused by the use amount of development to the south of the road. There needs to be some sort of high capacity system to get the water out of this area.

    Fair play to the OPW, they had put resources in place to deal with the problems on Chesterfield Avenue in the Phoenix Park. As I passed through on Sat they had a crew out working and a big pump stationed at the problem area.


  • #93
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,490 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Brian, rainwater is relatively clean. They do fit silt and oil sumps before the drain flows into a ditch or stream. The problem is lack of attenuation areas on all but newer schemes.

    Just a reminder of the November 2002 flood.


  • #94
    gurramok
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,992 ✭✭✭✭gurramok


    Here's what Gerry had to say http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0814/1218477549792.html
    While some local authorities last week claimed they could not have predicted such an event, Mr Fleming says planners will have to think in the longer term.

    "In Catalonia [in northeast Spain] they have storm drains which are capable of taking a 400mm flash rainfall - our total on Saturday amounted to 76mm of rainfall.

    "The storm drains in Catalonia are unused 95 per cent of the time but they are there when they are needed.

    Also:
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/opinion/2008/0815/1218477634036.html
    http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2008/0814/1218477549796.html
    The weakest point is likely to be the maintenance of motorways, according to another engineering source. This is generally the responsibility of local authorities or, in the case of public-private partnership (PPP) projects, the private operators.

    "Blocked drains or gulleys could be the real problem, rather than the design of drainage systems," this source said. "Another issue is whether money should be spent upgrading drains, if heavy rain is only going to cause flooding once in 20 years or so."
    Northern Spain has storm drains capable of taking five times as much water as that which fell in Dublin last weekend. Those drains are unused 95 per cent of the time. But they are available when required and motorists and families are not trapped by flash floods.

    N3 flooded 4 times in the exact same spot, 2000, 2002 and twice in 2008(Sat& Tues). Lets hope a miracle will happen and it will not flood again by 2010 :D


  • #95
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,497 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Victor wrote: »
    Brian, rainwater is relatively clean.

    Not after it's flowed along a Dublin Bus route - ask any motorcyclist.

    If DB had natural gas powered buses, all their garages would probably blow up within a week.

    Scrap the cap!



  • #96
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Up the north they're calling for heads to roll because of the design of the new Broadway Underpass (M1/A12) and more particularly the design of the culverting of the Clowney river above it.

    It's telling to me that up there people are asking hard questions while down here pretty much nothing happens.

    The N3 should not have flood in the same spot again. This problem should have been rectified after the 2002 floods. A once in 20 year even my arse.


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  • #97
    uberwolf
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,580 ✭✭✭uberwolf


    Still though, it could have been worse...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8PhQ5gkNiqI


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