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The big Phil Fish, Zoe Quinn and Anita Sarkeesian discussion thread

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    #32
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Timmyctc wrote: »
    No one really deserves to have their info published in the way Quinn and Fish's has been the past few days. What Quinn did with the Game Jam was 100% not on but the abuse levelled at her over speculation on how her sex life affected her game reviews was disgusting. Reddit and youtube were heavily censored and rightly so. Everyone on reddit was giving off that every other comment needed to be deleted and how it was because "Big evil Zoe" was again abusing her power, yet in the same breath spewing vitriol of the most abhorrent degree about the girl.

    She wasn't doxxed. It was discovered she faked the whole thing. She also knows one of the mods of r/gaming on reddit who's been deleting posts about the situation.

    The fact that she's been lying and manipulating people as well as having the whole thing censored has made it far worse for her and has made her undeserving of sympathy.


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    #33
    super_furry
    Registered Users Posts: 27,321 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    She wasn't doxxed. It was discovered she faked the whole thing. She also knows one of the mods of r/gaming on reddit who's been deleting posts about the situation.

    The fact that she's been lying and manipulating people as well as having the whole thing censored has made it far worse for her and has made her undeserving of sympathy.

    The evidence for that 'fake' doxxing is tenuous at best and relies on believing a sketchy anonymous tumblr post. There's no evidence that she knew any reddit mod, there's a screenshot of a twitter conversation where a twitter mod asks her to DM him, which is evidence only that the mod was taking a proactive stance to a witch hunt.

    Any person who has received rape threats, death threats and had their private life spilled across the internet because of an angry and vengeful ex-partner is deserving of sympathy to my mind.


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    #34
    Retr0gamer
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,811 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    Phil Fishs only problem is responding to the nternet which seems to be full of people that take comic book films too seriously and serious delusions about what they are entitled to. When you have nerds then exposing your personal details like this you realise what type of cretins you are dealing with. theres only one victim in this and it ain't the intrawebs.
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    #35
    Calhoun
    Registered Users Posts: 7,447 ✭✭✭Calhoun


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    Phil Fishs only problem is responding to the nternet which seems to be full of people that take comic book films too seriously and serious delusions about what they are entitled to. When you have nerds then exposing your personal details like this you realise what type of cretins you are dealing with. theres only one victim in this and it ain't the intrawebs.

    True but you know how it is you love by the sword you die by it, most developers should know by now to not act the hollow or come across as treating a fans like **** it's red rag to a bull (not saying it's right).

    I feel for the chap but he must have something mentally wrong with him, he's now damaged goose and I doubt any dev will touch him.


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    #36
    Timmyctc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,825 ✭✭✭Timmyctc


    pablomakaveli wrote: »
    She wasn't doxxed. It was discovered she faked the whole thing. She also knows one of the mods of r/gaming on reddit who's been deleting posts about the situation.

    The fact that she's been lying and manipulating people as well as having the whole thing censored has made it far worse for her and has made her undeserving of sympathy.

    I love all this "It was discovered" and how "It came out that " x, y and z. What is the evidence that she's being done for. A blog post by an irate ex? A tumblr account. r/gaming regularly delete posts for personal abuse. That she knew a mod is very very likely no more than some good old reddit mob mentality conspiracy. Reddit (not unlike boards) has stringent moderation in place, in certain subreddits at least, to remove any and all personal abuse.
    Which they were doing. Did you read any comments prior to their deletion? Its disgusting how the gaming 'community' (I hate that word in this context but for lack of a better word I'll leave it) act. Phil Fish flips out and cant deal with the exposure and breaks down, what does the gaming community do? Back off let him regain some cool. (Sorta unlikely it would happen ill admit) But nah. Ignore him and let him fade into obscurity? Nah. Keep poking him, bait reactions then crucify him for that? Check.

    With ZQ. Yeah she's not a great person. Got plenty of issues and character flaws of her own to sort out. Her personal life, and whom she sleeps with is her own business and why a subreddit of 5 million+ feels the need to slate her or her personal life choices (on top of the game jam thing [which tbh I don't fully understand so wont comment on]) is beyond me. ZQ and Phil Fish are devs. Devs cannot thrive without people buying their ****, simple as. If everyone is so ****ing aggrieved Dont buy their ****! Simple as. But the fact these ****ing reddit and 4chan 'heroes' have to ride in on their "We r le leigon m'lady" horses and ruin someone's life in every way they can is downright pathetic. Then these same people go and complain about the state of the aforementioned 'gaming community' which they are souring more than any indie devs.

    As for the doxxing herself thing. I don't know. You don't know. Frankly most people don't know. All it takes for one of these facts to purport is someone to present a popular opinion to the wolves on R/Gaming and once that gets gifted gold and a few upvotes it becomes 'fact' essentially. If she did that for sympathy, shes more pathetic. Maybe she did it out of desparation, who knows. But if people want her to go away.

    Don't give her money. Its that simple.


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    #37
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    Phil Fishs only problem is responding to the nternet which seems to be full of people that take comic book films too seriously and serious delusions about what they are entitled to. When you have nerds then exposing your personal details like this you realise what type of cretins you are dealing with. theres only one victim in this and it ain't the intrawebs.

    Phil Fish's problem is that he acts in a way that is unacceptable. This isn't the first and is almost certainly not the last time he goes on one of his crusades since the last one before this resulted in him "leaving Twitter forever" and this one isn't having him selling his rights and company merely saying he's going to do this. Why do you people give him oxygen? It really doesn't matter if he made Fez, his behaviour has been completely unacceptable far too many times and he's been unapologetic about it. Just because some bunch of idiots put his personal info out for the public doesn't absolve him of any of the crap he's been saying the past few days or in the past.


    Ignoring the whole Zoe Quinn cluster**** and the impossibility of working what the hell has happened with all the noise from various crusader types on both sides, I'm really finding it hard to see why people are defending Fish here. What was done to him was wrong, definitely, but the man's public commentary simply hasn't been acceptable and it's not like he hasn't been actively trying to provoke half of bloody twitter this past week. You should be condemning both Fish and whatever muppet doxxed him.


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    #38
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    super_furry wrote: »
    The evidence for that 'fake' doxxing is tenuous at best and relies on believing a sketchy anonymous tumblr post. There's no evidence that she knew any reddit mod, there's a screenshot of a twitter conversation where a twitter mod asks her to DM him, which is evidence only that the mod was taking a proactive stance to a witch hunt.

    That's hard evidence that she both was or was not doxxed by someone else, depending on what you go into it wanting to believe. Really, there's **** all hard evidence out there at the moment, just Reddit's "Find the Boston Bomber" approach applied to a social media hunt. Did she cheat on the boyfriend? Probably. Was there a large amount of hate for her already waiting for a chance to rip her to pieces? Definitely. Can we trust almost anything put up on Reddit or Twitter about this? Almost certainly no, it's being written usually by people who've already decided whether she's guilty or innocent of all that she's been accused of.


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    #39
    Corvo
    Registered Users Posts: 3,648 ✭✭✭Corvo


    So can anyone summarise what actually happened?


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    #40
    pablomakaveli
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,752 ✭✭✭pablomakaveli


    Timmyctc wrote: »


    With ZQ. Yeah she's not a great person. Got plenty of issues and character flaws of her own to sort out. Her personal life, and whom she sleeps with is her own business and why a subreddit of 5 million+ feels the need to slate her or her personal life choices (on top of the game jam thing [which tbh I don't fully understand so wont comment on]) is beyond me. ZQ and Phil Fish are devs. Devs cannot thrive without people buying their ****, simple as. If everyone is so ****ing aggrieved Dont buy their ****! Simple as. But the fact these ****ing reddit and 4chan 'heroes' have to ride in on their "We r le leigon m'lady" horses and ruin someone's life in every way they can is downright pathetic. Then these same people go and complain about the state of the aforementioned 'gaming community' which they are souring more than any indie devs.

    Probably worth mentioning it's not all as one sided. Her supporters have been just as bad. Look at the abuse Totalbiscuit got when he wrote an article. He didn't actually criticize her, but her use of DCMA to have stuff taken down. He ended up getting a lot of **** when he hadn't really said much about her at all.


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    #41
    Gummy Panda
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,920 ✭✭✭✭Gummy Panda


    Didn't like Phil Fish in indie game and didn't like how he talked to PC gamers on steam.

    ZFG


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    #42
    Reekwind
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,126 ✭✭✭Reekwind


    Status Offline wrote: »
    I'm getting sick to the ****ing bone of indie devs acting like they're hard done by.it's their choice to be developers and deal with the public.If they want to have a successful career treat every customer like their your boss.If they can't manage that,then either get a job working for a bigger game company or don't deal with the public full stop.
    No. This idea that being an indie developer means that you have to prostate yourself before the public and blandly accept their brickbats is nonsense. You can be a famous author, musician, film director, etc without having to live your life entirely in the public eye. Even actors, perhaps the most exposed and visual of all the creative professions, can avoid playing that game if they really want to. So telling someone 'shut up and endure our abuse' just because they want to make computer games strikes me as mad.

    Yet we feel that game developers are different. Or rather, an audience comprised primarily of self-entitled internet nerds feels that it is different. Phil Fish is not your or anybody else's bitch. He owes the customers nothing other than the game they purchase. They are not his boss. When you pay for a game then you receive a copy of a game, not some enduring loyalty of the developer or a promise that they'll acknowledge your tweets.

    I don't know Phil Fish or his utterances. He might well be be an absolute prick. Fine. Does that mean that he can't be hacked off when private details are shared? Does that mean that he should hold his tongue when a friend is the subject of an internet hate campaign? Again, no. However great a dickhead that this Fish character is, I have a hard time believing that he's any worse than the baying crowd who seem to believe that he should dance to their tune.
    super_furry wrote:
    Any person who has received rape threats, death threats and had their private life spilled across the internet because of an angry and vengeful ex-partner is deserving of sympathy to my mind.
    Sometimes it's hard to believe that sentiments like this actually need to be reiterated.


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    #43
    Slot Machine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 126 ✭✭Slot Machine


    Reekwind wrote: »
    No. This idea that being an indie developer means that you have to prostate yourself before the public and blandly accept their brickbats is nonsense. You can be a famous author, musician, film director, etc without having to live your life entirely in the public eye. Even actors, perhaps the most exposed and visual of all the creative professions, can avoid playing that game if they really want to. So telling someone 'shut up and endure our abuse' just because they want to make computer games strikes me as mad.

    It's not so much telling them to shut up and take abuse as remember the reality that due to the nature of their business (small-scale, self-employed, customer-facing), public relations can make or break it. They don't have the luxury of established--and that word must be stressed--artists in other media because once you've made your money you can afford, to a certain extent, to discount public opinion.

    But indie devs by their nature are at the point in their career where they need to court public opinion. They need people to pay to get them to a point where they're in a better position. In that way, game developers aren't being treated differently than any other business where small players are trying to make a name for themselves.

    If anything, indie devs are different in their colossal entitlement complexes. No one owes them anything, no one has to buy their game. They are disposable, especially so if they're not producing something niche where people will willingly lap it up.

    You can be as big an asshole if you want but you can't then expect people to kiss the ground you walk on. You reap what you sow, and all that.


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    #44
    Timmyctc
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,825 ✭✭✭Timmyctc


    Slot Machine wrote: »
    It's not so much telling them to shut up and take abuse as remember the reality that due to the nature of their business (small-scale, self-employed, customer-facing), public relations can make or break it. They don't have the luxury of established--and that word must be stressed--artists in other media because once you've made your money you can afford, to a certain extent, to discount public opinion.

    But indie devs by their nature are at the point in their career where they need to court public opinion. They need people to pay to get them to a point where they're in a better position. In that way, game developers aren't being treated differently than any other business where small players are trying to make a name for themselves.

    If anything, indie devs are different in their colossal entitlement complexes. No one owes them anything, no one has to buy their game. They are disposable, especially so if they're not producing something niche where people will willingly lap it up.

    You can be as big an asshole if you want but you can't then expect people to kiss the ground you walk on. You reap what you sow, and all that.

    This is all true. But Fish doesn't want you or anyone else buying his **** anymore. He stopped making games. So why the hate? Why constantly bemoan his actions when he doensn't want anything from anyone? Devs can be dicks and the way to counteract that is to not buy their games. Its very basic logic. Why people feel the need to be like "WELL I WONT SUPPORT HIM ANYMORE BUT ILL ALSO SPREAD HIS PERSONAL INFORMATION EVERYWHERE BCUZ I R AN INTERNET VIGILANTE *sips doritos flavoured mountain dew*" is beyond me.

    The fact that its an indie dev imo is less reason for the flame brigade to get involved. Its not a big faceless company people are attacking. Its a person. There are certainly a plethora of people on R/Gaming and 4chan and probably boards who have acted like dickheads in their lives. Done things that aren't above board to get ahead in their careers. Plotted behind people's backs, cheated on people. Should we go and name and shame them?

    Would it make sense if I came into a coffee shop someone worked in and started loudly calling the barista a "****ing entitled dickweasel" and handed out copies of their personal information to the public because this person acted like a dick at times, or because they cheated on an ex or because someone on tumblr and/or reddit went into intense autistic Sherlock Holmes mode and "Solved the mystery of the indie barista" and how they have connections that got them the job in the first place so they deserved the vitriol me and thousands of others were going to level at them?


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    #45
    Slot Machine
    Closed Accounts Posts: 126 ✭✭Slot Machine


    Timmyctc wrote: »
    This is all true. But Fish doesn't want you or anyone else buying his **** anymore. He stopped making games. So why the hate?

    Presumably because he keeps thrusting himself back into the public eye only to jam his foot firmly in his mouth. There's an easy fix to this: if you don't want publicity, stay out of the limelight.

    Somehow I doubt that's what he wants, though.
    Why constantly bemoan his actions when he doensn't want anything from anyone? Devs can be dicks and the way to counteract that is to not buy their games. Its very basic logic. Why people feel the need to be like "WELL I WONT SUPPORT HIM ANYMORE BUT ILL ALSO SPREAD HIS PERSONAL INFORMATION EVERYWHERE BCUZ I R AN INTERNET VIGILANTE *sips doritos flavoured mountain dew*

    *tips fedora*
    You forgot to call them neckbeard autist ****lords.
    The fact that its an indie dev imo is less reason for the flame brigade to get involved. Its not a big faceless company people are attacking. Its a person.

    A person courting drama. Again, if Fish wants out he just has to stop.
    There are certainly a plethora of people on R/Gaming and 4chan and probably boards who have acted like dickheads in their lives. Done things that aren't above board to get ahead in their careers. Plotted behind people's backs, cheated on people. Should we go and name and shame them?

    Have they put themselves into the public sphere while doing so? Is there any public interest to their exposure if not?


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    #46
    Sand
    Registered Users Posts: 12,472 ✭✭✭✭Sand


    Status Offline wrote: »
    If they don't need gamers then why don't they give their game away for free? Every other industry understands that if you piss off customers, you don't get sales.Every customer/gamer is important as they are the ones paying for the devs product.

    Because they want to make a living? Not treating every single abusive customer as a prince is not incompatible with selling profitable games to the majority.

    Their customers paying less and less - nothing in some cases. And demanding more and more. The cost/benefit to devs on appeasing the mouth breathing, obnoxious troll with a huge entitlement complex who rushes straight to the forum to vent after ragequiting a game is going further and further towards: "This guy costs me time, and pays me peanuts. Feck him".

    I'm not a dev, but paying someone a dollar doesnt give people the right to abuse them. That is the way most online communities have gone though. If a few devs dish back out what they're receiving or decide it is simply not worth the hassle then I sympathise. You give respect, you get respect.

    Basically, no, not every customer is a unique and special snowflake. Most customers are relatively quiet, keep their drivers and OS up to date, solve their own mod incompatibilities or just open up google and look for an answer. They will keep buying the games regardless of the dev telling a childish troll to swallow something sharp. Just like most people in a pub will approve of a boorish drunk being thrown out of the pub and barred.
    it's not the customers fault that the game is cheap and that the developer runs the business so badly that they can barely make a living from it.

    No, but the customer has to expect if you pay peanuts for a game, you are not going to get AAA after sale service. The game should do what it says on the tin, but its not necessarily the devs job to hold peoples hand in solving third party software problems. When I buy a flight with Ryanair, I expect them to get me from A to B safely - I don't expect the sort of pampering I would get if I had gone with a premier line. Its the same with games.
    I'm getting sick to the ****ing bone of indie devs acting like they're hard done by.it's their choice to be developers and deal with the public.If they want to have a successful career treat every customer like their your boss.

    That's an awful way to run a business. Nobody treats all customers equally. You identify your most profitable customers and you pamper them (DLC, kickstarter backers, premium content etc). You identify your loss creating customers (i.e. trolls and anti-social ragers) and you drive them out. And everyone in between you set a standard service for that still turns a profit.
    If they can't manage that,then either get a job working for a bigger game company or don't deal with the public full stop.

    I think that is what Phil Fish is doing? And he is still apparently getting hate for it. Most wise Devs keep their distance from their games online community bar PR/marketing opportunities. It is not worth the hassle from what I can see.


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    #47
    johnny_ultimate
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Entertainment Moderators Posts: 29,094 CMod ✭✭✭✭johnny_ultimate


    Slot Machine wrote: »
    Have they put themselves into the public sphere while doing so? Is there any public interest to their exposure if not?

    I would say there's more public interest in exposing the small subset of individuals who persist with rape / death threats, systematic sexism, illegal breaches of privacy / data protection and computer attacks than there is in the case of a minor, subcultural personality who childishly insults trolls from time to time and espouses some outspoken opinions.

    The Internet has a mob mentality problem, and it is one that is particularly pronounced and vulgar in the gaming sphere.


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    #48
    gizmo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    nesf wrote: »
    Ignoring the whole Zoe Quinn cluster**** and the impossibility of working what the hell has happened with all the noise from various crusader types on both sides, I'm really finding it hard to see why people are defending Fish here. What was done to him was wrong, definitely, but the man's public commentary simply hasn't been acceptable and it's not like he hasn't been actively trying to provoke half of bloody twitter this past week. You should be condemning both Fish and whatever muppet doxxed him.
    It depends what you mean by "defend Fish" though. For instance, I haven't seen anyone here defend what he's said nor the abrasive manner in which he often says it, quite the contrary in fact. There have been some folk pointing out inaccuracies in the criticism against him all right but that's certainly not the same thing. Instead the general position seems to be that the sheer level of vitriol directed at him, even before the latest incident, is still completely unjustified given his previous comments.

    I guess it depends on what you see as the real talking point here. To take the 2012 tweet linked earlier as an example, the core of the problem in this instance is that following a relatively innocuous tweet from Fish, some random gamer decided to cram as many insults as he could into a 140 character response. Now, if I'm going to comment on that, it's going to be this, not via a tweet which shows neither a desire for debate nor willingness to engage and instead just sets out to be as abusive as possible. What I also take from that particular encounter isn't "Phil Fish is a douche because he told some guy to suck his dick", it's "Phil Fish just got another pile of abuse for saying something I disagree with". Commenting in this manner, however, shouldn't be seen as tacit approval for what he's said or the manner in which he said it.


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    #49
    nesf
    Registered Users Posts: 27,645 ✭✭✭✭nesf


    gizmo wrote: »
    It depends what you mean by "defend Fish" though. For instance, I haven't seen anyone here defend what he's said nor the abrasive manner in which he often says it, quite the contrary in fact. There have been some folk pointing out inaccuracies in the criticism against him all right but that's certainly not the same thing. Instead the general position seems to be that the sheer level of vitriol directed at him, even before the latest incident, is still completely unjustified given his previous comments.

    I guess it depends on what you see as the real talking point here. To take the 2012 tweet linked earlier as an example, the core of the problem in this instance is that following a relatively innocuous tweet from Fish, some random gamer decided to cram as many insults as he could into a 140 character response. Now, if I'm going to comment on that, it's going to be this, not via a tweet which shows neither a desire for debate nor willingness to engage and instead just sets out to be as abusive as possible. What I also take from that particular encounter isn't "Phil Fish is a douche because he told some guy to suck his dick", it's "Phil Fish just got another pile of abuse for saying something I disagree with". Commenting in this manner, however, shouldn't be seen as tacit approval for what he's said or the manner in which he said it.

    I wasn't really thinking of discussion on this site as I've been seeing it everywhere the past while (i.e. Reddit etc). I see people coming to Fish's aid not because he's receiving a completely disproportionate level of abuse (he was) but simply because he was supporting Zoe Quinn and the same herd mentality that was earning him that level of abuse was fueling the same blind support of him.

    I'm very much sick of reading about the whole thing at this stage. Another internet social media cluster**** over something that should concern almost no one commenting on it. Bleh.


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    #50
    Nody
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Arts Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,260 CMod ✭✭✭✭Nody


    super_furry wrote: »
    He was hacked and had his private information just because he defended his friend against a pretty nasty harassment campaign. This is a man who has made one of the best platformers of the last decade and whatever you think of his twitter persona, it's really ****ty that he's been forced to take such a drastic step.
    You know I spent this morning thinking about it and the thing is it's not his twitter persona that's ****ty; it's Phil himself. Phil is simply a bully who's not realized he's not as big as he thinks he is and constantly goes after other people with the belief that because he made Fez his opinion is more important than everyone else. He goes after everyone and anyone for any reason and when they respond to his inane BS he throws a hissy fit and runs away because as any other bully he can't actually handle a real conflict and try to gain sympathy with various threats (I'll never make Fez 2! I'm going to shut down my twitter account! I'm going to sell my company!). All of it simple tricks for him to get people to smooth his ego and tell him he is really the biggest baddest bully around here and he should not listen to those telling him differently.

    Now people will say "oh but he has depressed" or "oh but he's being harassed" but the thing is depression is not an excuse or even an explanation; I know plenty of people diagnosed with depression (inc. my SO who's been diagnosed with it for over 20 years) and they don't act like bullies in everyday life nor on the internet yet Phil does. As for being harassed that comes with putting yourself out there by bullying others and then not being able to handle the heat you generated yourself; exactly like a bully he can only give but he can't take anything himself...

    Phil_fish_suck_my_dick.jpg
    PRvFI9U.jpg
    zFBoyuZ.png
    fez-2-is-cancelled1.png
    fish.jpg

    And my all time favorite; but it's ok if I do it to others, right?!
    5374722_orig.jpg

    It's not only on twitter either; in every interaction shown with him from the movie, to twitter, to interviews etc. he consistently comes over as a bully. It's not his internet persona, it's him. It's also why I'll never buy Fez and I'll never play Fez even if I got it for free.


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    #51
    Retr0gamer
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,811 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    I don't really see what is so wrong with those posts if the OP is being a complete twat to begin with. If you are going to be a judgemental twat to people you don't know what do you expect back? It might not be the best or most mature reaction but it's hardly unprovoked.
    Untitled Image




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    #52
    Kirby
    Registered Users Posts: 13,084 ✭✭✭✭Kirby


    People who get into cursing matches on the internet deserve what they get. It shows a lack of maturity and intelligence.

    Flying off the handle and cursing in a temper in person happens. Most of us have tempers and it happens in an instance. It takes a few seconds to type something up and a few more to post something. If in that time you haven't calmed down and realised it's a mistake to type content like that, you deserve what you get.


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    #53
    o1s1n
    Registered Users Posts: 34,430 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    If he spent less time whinging on twitter he might actually have made more than one game.

    I really hope that is him gone - I cannot comprehend how someone who has made just one game has such a wide audience whenever he opens his gob.


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    #54
    Dave_The_Sheep
    Registered Users Posts: 7,334 ✭✭✭Dave_The_Sheep


    Easy to just acknowledge that he seems like a dick, the people who expose personal info or hurl abuse online also seem like dicks, and ignore the lot of them. Attention seekers want attention, deny them that.


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    #55
    Generic Dreadhead
    Registered Users Posts: 10,870 ✭✭✭✭Generic Dreadhead


    the incredible pudding wrote: »
    This video sums up my feelings about Fish pretty well.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmTUW-owa2w

    I found this to be an interesting commentary
    Timmyctc wrote: »
    Would it make sense if I came into a coffee shop someone worked in and started loudly calling the barista a "****ing entitled dickweasel" and handed out copies of their personal information to the public because this person acted like a dick at times, or because they cheated on an ex or because someone on tumblr and/or reddit went into intense autistic Sherlock Holmes mode and "Solved the mystery of the indie barista" and how they have connections that got them the job in the first place so they deserved the vitriol me and thousands of others were going to level at them?

    Very well put

    Well I got Fez free with PS Plus.... played a good 2 hours of it with a friend on Saturday, here's how it played out:

    "I like the art style"
    "Plenty of nods to the Zelda series here"
    "Remember the developer in Indie Game the Movie? He seemed like a bit of a narcissist"
    "It's quite a creative game mechanic"
    "F**king invisible blocks" :mad:
    "Wait were we through this door already"

    And so on and so forth, fun game, guy seems a bit OTT, no need to hate him, he didn't do anything to you. Also he seems really passionate, which is nice to see (when done in a positive manner unlike in some of his engagements unfortunately).

    I'm really surprised at all the people on here that are refusing to play Fez as a result of the Developers social media or real life actions.

    If you wanna deny yourself enjoying something creative and fun because you believe you're taking a moral stance that will somehow affect anything other than you own feelings of life satisfaction, then I think you should reconsider.

    It's definitely a game that is worth trying. Not playing it gains you absolutely nothing. It's free on PS Plus after all.

    Enjoy the art, not the artist.
    If Leonardo Da-Vinchi had a twitter he'd probably be a total p***k too


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    #56
    Retr0gamer
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators Posts: 50,811 CMod ✭✭✭✭Retr0gamer


    I am boycotting all Phil Fish's games and future games because of his behaviour on twitter. Now I'm off to watch a marathon of Roman Polanski films.
    Untitled Image




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    #57
    gizmo
    Registered Users Posts: 8,405 ✭✭✭gizmo


    Nody wrote: »
    You know I spent this morning thinking about it and the thing is it's not his twitter persona that's ****ty; it's Phil himself. Phil is simply a bully who's not realized he's not as big as he thinks he is and constantly goes after other people with the belief that because he made Fez his opinion is more important than everyone else. He goes after everyone and anyone for any reason and when they respond to his inane BS he throws a hissy fit and runs away because as any other bully he can't actually handle a real conflict and try to gain sympathy with various threats (I'll never make Fez 2! I'm going to shut down my twitter account! I'm going to sell my company!). All of it simple tricks for him to get people to smooth his ego and tell him he is really the biggest baddest bully around here and he should not listen to those telling him differently.

    Now people will say "oh but he has depressed" or "oh but he's being harassed" but the thing is depression is not an excuse or even an explanation; I know plenty of people diagnosed with depression (inc. my SO who's been diagnosed with it for over 20 years) and they don't act like bullies in everyday life nor on the internet yet Phil does. As for being harassed that comes with putting yourself out there by bullying others and then not being able to handle the heat you generated yourself; exactly like a bully he can only give but he can't take anything himself...
    To be honest, I'd consider him a bully too if I twisted the narrative as much as you seem to have above. I mean, you've criticised him for going after "everyone and anyone for any reason" and then used two of the most notable examples of him first being specifically insulted for no valid reason. In that first tweet, how exactly was he a bully by any reasonable definition? You can call the response abrasive, uncalled for and immature but an example of him being a bully? :confused:

    Then you link an entirely one sided excerpt from his spat with Marcus "AnnoyedGamer" Beer on Twitter. For context, here's the interview he was responding too. Now, ignoring the logical inconsistencies in his argument, within the fairly short segment he directly and personally insults both Fish and Jonathan Blow on numerous occasions without any real provocation. What you've posted is Fish's response to that and later, his perfectly valid question to Beer, what did he ever do to him to deserve those kinds of insults publicly.

    There's a couple of points worth noting here, Beer isn't some random gamer on the internet, he's a industry reviewer and commentator. If you're going to hold Fish to a higher standard because he should be a professional then the same should apply to Beer. Coupled with this is the fact that you have such a person using their platform to have a go at someone like that when they have no reasonable means of defending themselves. As far as I'm concerned, that's the behaviour of a bully.

    Secondly, the overall context is rather interesting. Both devs chose not to comment on the XBox One indie story when the press went to them because, as Blow later commented, at the time it was still unknown how the service may or may not work and he did not want to add "information-free commentary." So now we have two devs who are often criticised for having an opinion on everything, not wanting to give an opinion on something because no one knows how the thing is going to make sense and then getting criticised for it. I'm not going to blame Fish's response on depression or anything else, I'm going to say that if I was in the same damned if you do, damned if you don't situation, I'd be pretty pissed off too. Would I lash out like Fish has? I'd like to think not but the idea of me being classed as a bully for doing so? Nope.

    The TotalBiscuit bit is, of course, a different story. His reply is in response to this comment from TB about the Quinn story. Fish, like a few other indie developers, didn't seem to appreciate the fact that TB made such a fairly all encompassing comment on the entire affair yet failed to, in any substantive way, comment on or condemn the volume of abuse Quinn received. Now, I'm quite positive he does think what happened is horrible but from reading it, the tone seems more critical of Quinn's use of the DMCA than of anything else. Jim Sterling, on the other hand, had a far more reasonable commentary on the issue here and, as far as I can see, has received no similar rebuttal from any noteworthy source. Regardless, does this justify Fish's tweets to TB? Absolutely not. Should they be condemned? Most certainly yes. But again, does it make him a bully in the manner in which you've described? I simply can't agree.

    * Sidenote: I agree with TB in this case, abuse of the DMCA process is never excusable.
    Retr0gamer wrote: »
    I am boycotting all Phil Fish's games and future games because of his behaviour on twitter. Now I'm off to watch a marathon of Roman Polanski films.
    I was going to make a crack about watching Ender's Game if you wanted something different but I was so disappointed with that movie I can't bring myself to think about it even jokingly. :(


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    #58
    o1s1n
    Registered Users Posts: 34,430 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    I feel like I've just walked in on my missus watching EastEnders.


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    #59
    super_furry
    Registered Users Posts: 27,321 ✭✭✭✭super_furry


    Half of the problem is that game developers interact too much with what is a hugely self-entitled customer base. The 'gaming community' is an oftentimes horrible collective that is willing to force people like Jennifer Hepler out of the industry just because they don't like the ending to a game. Fish's biggest mistake is biting back at some of these cretins and his example should be a warning to developers to take a step back from this community and leave it to the PR people.


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    #60
    Rilgar
    Registered Users Posts: 75 ✭✭Rilgar


    The best part out of all of this is that I didn't even liked playing Fez. I played for like five minutes and turned it out. But I can see why others would like it and I do respect their opinions. So what say you Mr. "Fish."


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    #61
    deathrider
    Registered Users Posts: 3,699 ✭✭✭deathrider


    Personally, I reckon the dude's problem is that he wants to be the problem. He could easier avoid putting himself in the limelight/firing range, and simply make his games quietly, and let them sell on their merits. But it seems that he loves the trouble. He wants to be the talking point. If you go looking for trouble, don't be surprised if you find it. Any publicity is good pulicity, right? Of course, that's gone a bit too far at this stage. It's good old fashioned Axl Rose syndrome. He thinks he's the most important person in the world, and seems to do whatever it takes to stay revelant. That's my take on it, anyways. However, I could be very wrong.

    On the topic of those who give him the abuse and smear his name or details all over the internet. These trolls are less than nothing, and are the people who give video game fans a bad name.


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