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The unfolding story in Tuam

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    #92
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    My name is URL wrote: »
    You almost sound as if you want 'nothing of value' to be accomplished.

    I'm pretty sure that I've said a large number of times that I would like it investigated more thoroughly as a non-criminal matter. But if you have some need to paint people who disagree with you as a bad guy then fill your boots.
    My name is URL wrote: »
    You're right that they are only following orders from the minister, and hopefully people will continue to point out that the minister herself has known about this since 2011, and until the other day completely ignored it. She, as Children's Minister could have at any stage demanded that an inquiry be set up, which would have saved a lot of the embarrassment they, gardai and the country as a whole are now facing.

    I think people have had enough, if public pressure is what it takes to have things investigated and addressed then long may that pressure continue.

    But this is merely lip service. Do you want a proper investigation or do you want things to look good in front of the world media? No Garda investigation will accomplish what people want. This isn't a prediction, it's just an inevitable outcome of our particular justice system.


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    #93
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    You just told us you did and there was no need for an investigation.
    We did notice that you know...

    Citation demanded as to where I said no investigation was needed.
    I have been advocating a cool and controlled response until the inquiry gives ALL facts, yet it is you and your ilk who are demanding blood before knowing anything beyond what the papers tell you.


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    #94
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    1: There is no evidence of a crime having being committed. The 796 figure is the total number of deaths or something. There is no evidence whatsoever, that the Nuns killed anyone there. The medical and death records of everyone there, have been in the possession of the Govt. since the venues closure in the 60's.
    DEMANDED. LOL. Used to making demands by any chance? Funny and pathetic.
    So, you were just exhaustively listing "reasons" why there shouldn't be an investigation into this case (it turned out you didn't know the first thing about it either) but you weren't saying at all there shouldn't be an investigation?
    Shure.


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    #95
    Resonator75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Resonator75


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    Citation demanded as to where I said no investigation was needed.
    I have been advocating a cool and controlled response until the inquiry gives ALL facts, yet it is you and your ilk who are demanding blood before knowing anything beyond what the papers tell you.


    Ehh, stop with that straw man, no one here is demanding blood.

    We are demanding an investigation by our police force so the facts can be assessed and if it appears criminal acts have been carried out the the appropriate action can be taken.

    If this situation is investigated and no evidence of wrong doing is found, so be it.

    I think we both agree this should happen?


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    #96
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Resonator75 wrote: »
    I think we both agree this should happen?
    Apparently he agrees but just likes making up reasons why there shouldn't be an investigation.
    Go figure.


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    #97
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    DEMANDED. LOL. Used to making demands by any chance? Funny and pathetic.
    So, you were just exhaustively listing "reasons" why there shouldn't be an investigation into this case (it turned out you didn't know the first thing about it either) but you weren't saying at all there shouldn't be an investigation?
    Shure.

    You still haven't provided where I said an investigation should not be carried out. Why not? Simply because I never said so.

    The theme on this thread is that the nuns are responsible for every death in that Institution. I countered with the FACT that all medical records are in possession of the State and should be first reviewed to see if there are anomalies, rather than sending in diggers to unearth every skeletal remains as a first solution. My comments are still visible and will be until removed.
    I think first, rather than letting my emotions guide and rule my response (I apologise if this is interpreted as a personal insult...I am speaking of myself) and I reached my conclusions after seeing some of the Medical Records of the Children from Tuam on the RTE News.


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    #98
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Resonator75 wrote: »
    Ehh, stop with that straw man, no one here is demanding blood.

    We are demanding an investigation by our police force so the facts can be assessed and if it appears criminal acts have been carried out the the appropriate action can be taken.

    If this situation is investigated and no evidence of wrong doing is found, so be it.

    I think we both agree this should happen?

    I am not a liar and do not take kindly to being called one - explicitly or implicitly.
    Nowhere in my posts will anyone find me typing that an investigation is not needed. What I did write was that there was no evidence of a crime being committed: seeing as burying bodies outside of designated areas is a crime, I stand corrected on this issue.


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    #99
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Apparently he agrees but just likes making up reasons why there shouldn't be an investigation.
    Go figure.

    Aside from the illegal burial/disposal of human remains, what criminal activity has occurred? The Medical records so far don't hint to foul-play.
    If you return to page 1 of this Thread, the OP asked why there wasn't an investigation carried out by the Gardai. I gave my answer but you have somehow understood this as me attempting to prevent an Investigation.

    Don't try blame me because you can't understand what I write.


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    #100
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    I am not a liar and do not take kindly to being called one - explicitly or implicitly.
    Nowhere in my posts will anyone find me typing that an investigation is not needed. What I did write was that there was no evidence of a crime being committed: seeing as burying bodies outside of designated areas is a crime, I stand corrected on this issue.

    I could be wrong but I think there's a statute of limitations of 6 months on that.


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    #101
    barney4001
    Registered Users Posts: 1,447 ✭✭✭barney4001


    i have been reading up on this matter from it first broke out, and this whole thing about Tuam, I am inclined to think that its bordering on genocide by trying to wipe those unwanted babies of the face of the earth, and probably their mothers as well,deeming them as unworthy for their idea of society.
    How many other mother and baby homes were there in Ireland,and do not forget the industrial schools also with all the sad stories that came from those places ,like Lettrefrack Artane etc



    what is genocide? It is the mass murder or killing of a group of people. The reasons are usually because of ethnic or religious or gender based. Women, children, men and young boys are all killed.


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    #102
    gctest50
    Registered Users Posts: 9,605 ✭✭✭gctest50


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    ..............The Medical records so far don't hint to foul-play..............

    The Medical records written up by the slime that killed the kids by neglect and whatever else ?

    How truthful are those records going to be ?


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    #103
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    gctest50 wrote: »
    The Medical records written up by the slime that killed the kids by neglect and whatever else ?

    How truthful are those records going to be ?


    If your concern is so great, contact Tuam Garda station instead of asking me to verify medical records.
    Do you see that you have already accused people of murder when there is very little evidence yet to back it up? or do you abandon the presumption of innocence when it suits you?


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    #104
    Resonator75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Resonator75


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    Aside from the illegal burial/disposal of human remains, what criminal activity has occurred? The Medical records so far don't hint to foul-play.
    If you return to page 1 of this Thread, the OP asked why there wasn't an investigation carried out by the Gardai. I gave my answer but you have somehow understood this as me attempting to prevent an Investigation.

    Don't try blame me because you can't understand what I write.

    Who called you a liar?

    Are you implying that I called you a liar?

    How could you possibly know one way or another what has happened here. That's the whole point is it not?

    Please dont accuse me of calling you a liar, there be rules against that here.


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    #105
    Resonator75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Resonator75


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    Aside from the illegal burial/disposal of human remains, what criminal activity has occurred?

    If you cant see the problem with what you just posted yourself, I'm afraid I cant help you understand.


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    #106
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Resonator75 wrote: »
    Who called you a liar?

    Are you implying that I called you a liar?

    How could you possibly know one way or another what has happened here. That's the whole point is it not?

    Please dont accuse me of calling you a liar, there be rules against that here.


    My "I am not a liar.." was not aimed at you. It was a response to your 'no need to draw blood' (para) statement...why I wrote it, if you will.

    The whole point? Nobody knows what happened but the executioners are out in force and baying for blood before the records are fully reviewed. The Nuns are guilty; the RCC is guilty; the Govt. is guilty; the Gardai are guilty... Guilty of what exactly?

    It appears that burying bodies in the grounds of these houses was standard practice - given that the Taoiseach eluded to there being 100's of these cases around the Country. Now, what exactly is the crime here? Burying poor, unwanted people in unmarked graves? That's not new to Ireland. That's not new to humanity.


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    #107
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    It appears that burying bodies in the grounds of these houses was standard practice - given that the Taoiseach eluded to there being 100's of these cases around the Country. Now, what exactly is the crime here? Burying poor, unwanted people in unmarked graves? That's not new to Ireland. That's not new to humanity.
    Do the Gardai only investigate crimes that are "new to humanity" or is this yet another lame attempt at trivialisation?
    You haven't retracted your claim that there was no money to support these children who died of malnutrition either I notice. Is this more of he "full cooperation" we've come to expect?


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    #108
    lazybones32
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,647 ✭✭✭lazybones32


    Resonator75 wrote: »
    If you cant see the problem with what you just posted yourself, I'm afraid I cant help you understand.

    It's a body...an accumulation of organic matter and will return to the elements it came from very quickly.

    Some burn their dead, some float them down the Ganges, some hack them into smaller pieces so that vultures will consume them quicker (Nepal).
    The victims of the Italian earthquake were mass-graved and the same would probably has happened in the recent Afghan quake.

    I am not one for sentimental treatment of corpses.


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    #109
    Resonator75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Resonator75


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    It's a body...an accumulation of organic matter and will return to the elements it came from very quickly.

    Some burn their dead, some float them down the Ganges, some hack them into smaller pieces so that vultures will consume them quicker (Nepal).
    The victims of the Italian earthquake were mass-graved and the same would probably has happened in the recent Afghan quake.

    I am not one for sentimental treatment of corpses.

    You are missing the point here, just a tiny bit.


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    #110
    Resonator75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Resonator75


    lazybones32 wrote: »
    the Gardai are guilty... Guilty of what exactly?


    Guilty of not doing any form of elementary investigation of a possible mass grave.


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    #111
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    So the question remains lazybones, do the Gardai need to investigate any human remains ever? They're all just deposited organic matter, right?


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    #112
    Victor
    Registered Users Posts: 78,245 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    roadsmart wrote: »
    AGS investigate criminal matters. I don't think any criminal allegation is suspected in relation to this grave, rather it is a matter of bad treatment by the state and a religious institution in the times that were in it. IMO therefore they wouldn't have a function.
    It is an offence to bury a corpse without a coffin (the law is being revised to take Muslim traditions into account).


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    #113
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Resonator75 wrote: »
    Guilty of not doing any form of elementary investigation of a possible mass grave.

    What do you mean by elementary? Do you still think this requires the digging up of all the bodies and declaring somewhere a crime scene?
    Victor wrote: »
    It is an offence to bury a corpse without a coffin (the law is being revised to take Muslim traditions into account).

    It was amended in 2013


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    #114
    Resonator75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Resonator75


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    What do you mean by elementary? Do you still think this requires the digging up of all the bodies and declaring somewhere a crime scene?



    It was amended in 2013


    Lets get a survey done for a start to see what exactly we are dealing with?

    Based on what is learned then the appropriate action taken.

    Why do you have such a problem with this?

    I dont understand your angle at all.


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    #115
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Resonator75 wrote: »
    Lets get a survey done for a start to see what exactly we are dealing with?

    Based on what is learned then the appropriate action taken.

    Why do you have such a problem with this?

    I dont understand your angle at all.

    I think I've explained my reasoning pretty well. I think a criminal investigation would be completely fruitless. Not one person has been able to suggest a crime that might be prosecuted. I would like to learn as much about the circumstances of the graveyard as possible and a criminal investigation would not acomplish that. The Gardaí are not the organisation to investigate this. They have neither the experience nor the resources. Demanding a criminal investigation is a purely emotional demand based on a desire for some kind of justice.


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    #116
    Resonator75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Resonator75


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    I think I've explained my reasoning pretty well. I think a criminal investigation would be completely fruitless. Not one person has been able to suggest a crime that might be prosecuted. I would like to learn as much about the circumstances of the graveyard as possible and a criminal investigation would not acomplish that. The Gardaí are not the organisation to investigate this. They have neither the experience nor the resources. Demanding a criminal investigation is a purely emotional demand based on a desire for some kind of justice.

    I am not insulting but that is complete lunatic bolder dash.

    Its 2014 and the garda do not have these type resources? Are you for real???

    What happens when a body is found in a bog or in where ever?

    FIRST THING THAT HAPPENS - Cops come in, decide if its a gangland murder or a mummified corpse from 2000 years ago and then the appropriate action is taken


    I see you are still implying Im clouded by emotion and fail to see logic.


    Frankly you are assuming we are all stupid. That is where your reasoning and debating skills fail you.


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    #117
    Dan_Solo
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 10,087 ✭✭✭✭Dan_Solo


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    Demanding a criminal investigation is a purely emotional demand based on a desire for some kind of justice.
    Yeah, I don't know what got into me there, looking for justice of any sort.
    So, once more. Do the Gardai investigate any bodies dumped in unmarked graves, ever? You appear to be saying they don't unless there's evidence elsewhere in the public domain of foul play.


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    #118
    Resonator75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Resonator75


    Dan_Solo wrote: »
    Yeah, I don't know what got into me there, looking for justice of any sort.
    So, once more. Do the Gardai investigate any bodies dumped in unmarked graves, ever? You appear to be saying they don't unless there's evidence elsewhere in the public domain of foul play.


    Is it not a police forces primary function to establish IF a crime has been carried out?

    Thats all we ask for Little CuChulainn. The Gards to so their job. Simple.


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    #119
    Little CuChulainn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,624 ✭✭✭Little CuChulainn


    Resonator75 wrote: »
    I am not insulting but that is complete lunatic bolder dash.

    Its 2014 and the garda do not have these type resources? Are you for real???

    What happens when a body is found in a bog or in where ever?

    FIRST THING THAT HAPPENS - Cops come in, decide if its a gangland murder or a mummified corpse from 2000 years ago and then the appropriate action is taken


    I see you are still implying Im clouded by emotion and fail to see logic.


    Frankly you are assuming we are all stupid. That is where your reasoning and debating skills fail you.

    You're not talking about a body in a bog. You're talking about 800 skeletons. And no, the Gardaí are not equipped to deal with that. There is about 5 people working in prefabs that make up the state pathologists office.

    You're the only one equating emotion with stupidity. That's your own hangup. I mean, I'm still waiting for you to state what crime may have been committed. Incidentally, for something to be declared a crime scene there has to be an actual crime to investigate.

    Let me ask this, where do you draw the line between a historical grave and one that should be dug up as a potential crime? Do you think we should dig up famine graves just to make sure they weren't murdered? Or are you looking for some smoking gun amongst the bodies that might help you deal with what was done?


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    #120
    Resonator75
    Closed Accounts Posts: 258 ✭✭Resonator75


    Little CuChulainn wrote: »
    You're not talking about a body in a bog. You're talking about 800 skeletons. And no, the Gardaí are not equipped to deal with that. There is about 5 people working in prefabs that make up the state pathologists office.

    You're the only one equating emotion with stupidity. That's your own hangup. I mean, I'm still waiting for you to state what crime may have been committed. Incidentally, for something to be declared a crime scene there has to be an actual crime to investigate.

    Let me ask this, where do you draw the line between a historical grave and one that should be dug up as a potential crime? Do you think we should dig up famine graves just to make sure they weren't murdered? Or are you looking for some smoking gun amongst the bodies that might help you deal with what was done?

    There is clear suspicion of wrong doing here. This needs to be investigated by the Garda . Hundreds of bodies in the ground. Why, How? Is it historical or not? You have jumped to a conclusion based on sweet FA.

    If this is not suspicious to the Garda then they are not fit for purpose.

    It needs to be looked into to decide what crime (if any) has been committed and due course can run.

    I cant be bothered to reply to you anymore, it just goes around in circles.


    Ive said my piece , you've said yours.


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    #121
    michael999999
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,771 ✭✭✭michael999999


    Judging by a few posters here, you could see how the evil treatment of kids and mothers by them satanic nuns went unpunished and unnoticed just a couple of decades ago!


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