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Dublin Metrolink (just Metrolink posts here -see post #1 )

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Comments

  • #552
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    lods wrote: »
    Metro Express is the name of the bidder not Sisk, as you can see they make up a small element of the group

    Sisk is the construction element of the consortium - and that is far from a 'small element'. I would suggest it is the most important element of all which covers the majority of the capital cost and will employ the bulk of the workforce on the project.
    But apparently without the PPP price they can tell us now that the CBA is 2:1
    :rolleyes:

    That CBA figure was based on the bids submitted BEFORE the Railway Order was issued by An Bord Pleanala last October. The BAFO is likely to come in less than those bids now as ABP shortened the route. The updated CBA will likely now be even more positive based on a lower capital cost.
    Always with the personal dig at the end jack.:confused: its not really needed

    It wasn't a personal dig - it was a legitimate question. I can't help it that you see it as a dig.

    I will also add that you really haven't thought through your replies because every point you make digs bigger holes in your arguments.

    (That's not a dig either - it's a simple observation based on the evidence here.)


  • #553
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Jack Noble wrote: »
    Here's what RPA said when questioned by Derek Wheeler on Metro North Facebook page about the problems with the M17/M18 PPP in Galway.

    And the answer could hardly be described as convincing. It was a standard response. Their answers to the DU questions are equally standard fodder. There's no depth to be had on that page.;)


  • #554
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    And the answer could hardly be described as convincing. It was a standard response. Their answers to the DU questions are equally standard fodder. There's no depth to be had on that page.;)

    My point was that the RPA have said little or nothing on the PPP over the years and only speak in vague generalities - which is exactly what the reply on Facebook was. I take nothing from it either way.

    When I spoke to an RPA official recently he said little more than the PPP process was still live and they had no indications of any problems on the funding front, either from the State or the private sector. Obviously that can change on either or both fronts in the coming months and we just have to wait and see.

    I look at the glass as half-full, others see it as half-empty. We will know soon enough who is right.


  • #555
    BluntGuy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,468 ✭✭✭BluntGuy


    monument wrote: »
    The programme for Government takes the same line as FF and FG etc -- it'll go ahead if the price is right and the funding can be done. I'm not sure what more you or anybody could expect other than outright lies.

    A direct and straightforward response. Perhaps this is a cynical viewpoint, but the issue of whether it will go ahead is almost always neatly sidestepped with the "we have to wait for a CBA" or vague statements about funding. The whole attitude, particularly of the outgoing government, is one of non-commitment and feels like they are simply putting off the inevitable day they will have to announce it has been postponed or cancelled.

    The impression they wish to give is that the PPP process is going along just fine and we're simply waiting for a best and final offer. Little, if any mention has been made of the fact that the financing itself may involve taxpayers putting up a not unsubstantial amount of the construction cost. There were whisperings about this kind of "risk-sharing" as early as 2009.

    I will concede we should give the incoming government some time to prepare its infrastructure plans and its new NDP and whatnot, but my overriding suspicion at this point is that Metro North will not be included in them, at least not in the short-term. We shall of course see in time.


  • #556
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    BluntGuy wrote: »
    A direct and straightforward response. Perhaps this is a cynical viewpoint, but the issue of whether it will go ahead is almost always neatly sidestepped with the "we have to wait for a CBA" or vague statements about funding. The whole attitude, particularly of the outgoing government, is one of non-commitment and feels like they are simply putting off the inevitable day they will have to announce it has been postponed or cancelled.

    The impression they wish to give is that the PPP process is going along just fine and we're simply waiting for a best and final offer. Little, if any mention has been made of the fact that the financing itself may involve taxpayers putting up a not unsubstantial amount of the construction cost. There were whisperings about this kind of "risk-sharing" as early as 2009.

    I will concede we should give the incoming government some time to prepare its infrastructure plans and its new NDP and whatnot, but my overriding suspicion at this point is that Metro North will not be included in them, at least not in the short-term. We shall of course see in time.

    It has been known since the start that the State would have to put in initial funding - for enabling works and a percentage of the final price for 'implentation payment' in 2013 in 2014. The exact percentage is unknown and won't be until a winning PPP bid is finalised.

    We know that the enabling works in 2011 and 2012 will cost €250m because the NTA chief told us so late last year in an interview with the Sunday Business Post.

    However, I believe the Greens let slip the cost to the State in a rather careless line one of it's election documents. It said the cost to the State of Metro North will be €700m, which I believe includes the enabling works.

    But we will know for sure later in the year when the BAFOs are submitted.

    As for the lack of commitment, much as I support Metro North, I don't think any government can or should give a commitment, absolute or even provisional, on the project going ahead without seeing the final price and terms on offer of the PPP.


  • #557
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    Jack Noble wrote: »
    As for the lack of commitment, much as I support Metro North, I don't think any government can or should give a commitment, absolute or even provisional, on the project going ahead without seeing the final price and terms on offer of the PPP.

    This is the issue that continues to alarm me. When we were awash with money, MN and DU were "going ahead." Commitment was defined as being Government policy aka a programme for Government. However the dithering continued at Government level. By early 2005, there was so much pressure on the Government to come clean on its rail based transport plans, that they "invented" Transport 21 as some kind of all embracing plan that would deliver. Has it? No. If the Government had been really committed to delivering the aforementioned projects, we'd be well underway. They funded the "cheap" options like the WRC, Midleton, KRP and the Pace line. (The latter two being developer friendly at 100s of millions rather than billions in expenditure.) The two key projects that bring Ireland into the 21st century have been stalled. (MN & DU)

    Why?

    Because as I have said before, there is no appetite at Government level for spending "billions" on a rail based transport system such as MN or DU. MN has seen more attention than DU because its concept was adapted by Government over 10 years ago as a populist "European" thing to do. It looked cool, sounded great and would be great, as it wound its way under Dublins streets. So we now find ourselves with contracts nearly ready to be signed. The bluff has been called. The politicians are quickly running out of road. Luckily for them we are in recession, so their procrastination will aid them in putting off the decision.

    Interestingly, CIE had originally proposed a cross city link (above ground) connecting Spencer Dock with Barrow street, but they ditched this when the Government supported a Metro and instead rolled out the interconnector aka DART Underground because they thought the money was beginning to flow. But with a Government hellbent on the populist Metro idea (not necessarily a bad one) DU was always going to struggle and it has in terms of Government support, only becoming policy in November 2005 under the fake fudge that was Transport 21.

    At the end of the day the Government did commit to MN many years ago, but in my opinion they never had any intention of actually building it. It was populist thinking. Governments think nothing of spending millions on planning things that they are reluctant to build, especially when they have loads of money to protract the process and make it look like progress is being made. (think about the millions and millions spent on consultants) As for DU, its no more than a neglected piece of infrastructure that had easy money thrown at it for planning, while the trendy and favoured MN was creeping up on an unsuspecting Government via the lads and lassies in the RPA who really do believe it will be built. It won't. And our new Government have the perfect excuse.

    Glass half full? Read Irish political History to fully appreciate why the glass is always half empty.


  • #558
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    This is the issue that continues to alarm me. When we were awash with money, MN and DU were "going ahead." Commitment was defined as being Government policy aka a programme for Government. However the dithering continued at Government level. By early 2005, there was so much pressure on the Government to come clean on its rail based transport plans, that they "invented" Transport 21 as some kind of all embracing plan that would deliver. Has it? No. If the Government had been really committed to delivering the aforementioned projects, we'd be well underway. They funded the "cheap" options like the WRC, Midleton, KRP and the Pace line. (The latter two being developer friendly at 100s of millions rather than billions in expenditure.) The two key projects that bring Ireland into the 21st century have been stalled. (MN & DU)

    Why?

    Because as I have said before, there is no appetite at Government level for spending "billions" on a rail based transport system such as MN or DU. MN has seen more attention than DU because its concept was adapted by Government over 10 years ago as a populist "European" thing to do. It looked cool, sounded great and would be great, as it wound its way under Dublins streets. So we now find ourselves with contracts nearly ready to be signed. The bluff has been called. The politicians are quickly running out of road. Luckily for them we are in recession, so their procrastination will aid them in putting off the decision.

    Interestingly, CIE had originally proposed a cross city link (above ground) connecting Spencer Dock with Barrow street, but they ditched this when the Government supported a Metro and instead rolled out the interconnector aka DART Underground because they thought the money was beginning to flow. But with a Government hellbent on the populist Metro idea (not necessarily a bad one) DU was always going to struggle and it has in terms of Government support, only becoming policy in November 2005 under the fake fudge that was Transport 21.

    At the end of the day the Government did commit to MN many years ago, but in my opinion they never had any intention of actually building it. It was populist thinking. Governments think nothing of spending millions on planning things that they are reluctant to build, especially when they have loads of money to protract the process and make it look like progress is being made. (think about the millions and millions spent on consultants) As for DU, its no more than a neglected piece of infrastructure that had easy money thrown at it for planning, while the trendy and favoured MN was creeping up on an unsuspecting Government via the lads and lassies in the RPA who really do believe it will be built. It won't. And our new Government have the perfect excuse.

    Glass half full? Read Irish political History to fully appreciate why the glass is always half empty.

    DW, I agree with some of what you say but not all of that.

    I think a number of transport ministers in the FF-led govts, particularly the late Seamus Brennan and Noel Dempsey, actually understood the importance of projects like Metro North and Dart Underground. Martin Cullen, I am not so sure of.

    But one thing I can agree with you on is that there was a large element of PR about the FF approach to a 'sexy' project like Metro North, as opposed to the more important 'workhorse' project like Dart Underground. And a lot of that was driven, I believe, by Bertie Ahern who really was only ever interested in one thing - leading FF back into govt and getting re-elected as Taoiseach. Everything he did was geared to that end - not the long-term development, prosperity and sustainability of the economy and country as we have all discovered to our cost in recent years.

    However, I believe there are a number of big differences now compared to the 1980s.

    1. Metro has a Railway Order while Dart Underground will have one within a year;

    2. A funding process - PPP - is in train and we will know very soon if it is a runner for one or both projects;

    3. Metro and DartU are at the heart of a long-term transport strategy developed since 2000 and now re-affirmed in the latest plan for the next 20 years and there is strong support in official circles for the projects;

    4. There are people who will be ministers in the new govt who understand the importance of sustainable, effective and efficient public transport for the development and growth of the economy and quality of life for people;

    5. On the economic front, proceeding with Metro North in 2012 will provide for significant job creation in Dublin and a major stimulus for the economy and the exchequer at a time when both are needed. Starting DartU in 2014/2015 - best case scenario at this stage, unfortunately, will be even more significant and keep the economic effects going up to 2020 at least;

    6. Finally, unlike the 1980s, we have a template for what can and will go wrong in future decades if Metro/Dart are not developed. Many of the problems faced in Dublin today - gridlock, bad planning, housing sprawl, low densities, business constriants, etc - can be directly traced to the axing of the original Dart project in the 1980s. Axing Metro/Dart now would simply be repeating history and storing up even more problems for the future - canny, experienced politicians like Noonan and Quinn who were there in the 80s will be aware of just that. Would you agree?

    As I said, I'm a glass half full person and I hope to see that glass topped up to the brim over the coming years - but I'm around enough to know that I could also get the current contents chucked in my face.

    Jack


  • #559
    lods
    Registered Users Posts: 569 ✭✭✭lods


    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/kevin-myers-metro-north-is-mad-and-immoral-our-new-government-must-have-the-courage-to-stop-it-2573524.html
    independent.ie
    Kevin Myers: Metro North is mad and immoral -- our new Government must have the courage to stop it
    By Kevin Myers
    Thursday March 10 2011

    SO, we have a Government -- and one of the first pleas the new Cabinet will hear is from Department of Transport officials, campaigning for the Metro North project. They will argue that Ireland's credibility in managing major procurement projects would be dealt a serious blow if the Government cancelled it.

    Sorry, but that's wrong: the real damage to Ireland's credibility will occur if Metro North goes ahead. The entire project is a classic case of statist ideology triumphing over economic sense. No good can come of it. Huge and possibly irreversible damage will be done by Metro North to Dublin's commerce and to its infrastructure.

    The argument from the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) in support of Metro North is of course merely self-cyclical. Railway-procurement agencies procure railways, not buses or parks or theatres or cafes in the centre of Dublin. Equally, sheepdogs don't lead the blind and lifeboats don't cut lawns, so it's illogical to expect any arguments other than railway-procuring ones from such a body.

    Other defenders of Metro North are ideological and support rail as a sort of juju-dogma: steel wheels good; rubber tyres bad. Others use a pseudo-Keynesian argument that state-supplied money will kick-start our ailing economy. But that is simply a dogma based on New Deal folklore.

    We are not the Tennessee Valley River Authority within a closed continent. Instead, we have the most open economy in the world. Money spent on creating a meteorite crater in St Stephen's Green and another one beside the Mater Hospital won't necessarily stay here. After all, we know that over a billion euro from the phoney housing boom, which was Fianna Fail's last exercise in pseudo-Keynesianism and which literally ruined us, was remitted to Poland.

    Look, I love the Poles deeply, their gorgeous women especially; but I see no reason to burden our great-grandchildren with massive debts in order that Krakow should enjoy the crack generated by Metro North construction. The Railway Procurement Agency maintains that the cost-benefit ratio is 2:1 -- meaning €2 returned in revenue for every €1 spent. Two euro where, please?

    The RPA is already planning to move street monuments, electricity, phone and gas lines out of the way. They're like mastodons, growling and ready to go. Meanwhile, catastrophe lies ahead for Dublin. For one thing we should have learnt by now is that we are incapable of controlling the costs of government-run projects.

    The Metro, officially, is going to cost €5bn. Very reasonable. Perhaps. But then remember the other government schemes. The Dublin Port Tunnel went from an estimated cost of €220m in 2000 to €580m in 2002 to a final cost of €789m. That's a 350pc over-run. The M50 widening increased from €190m to €560m: three times the original estimate. The Luas went up from €290m to €750m -- a 350pc increase.

    So the Metro, if built, could well cost three times the original estimate, meaning that the final bill will be about €15bn. And this is not for ploughing up a greenfield site in Meath, but for laying waste to much of Dublin's already-bleeding commercial centre.

    Even if it stays in budget, Metro North promises a metropolitan catastrophe, for the creation of a vast underground station beneath St Stephen's Green will involve the destruction of much of the parkland, the felling of many of its trees, the removal of its statuary and its probable closure for two years. The excavation of spoil from the crater will require 400 lorry movements a day, over two years, through the city centre's narrow streets. What joy all that will bring to the local restaurants, hotels, theatres and shops!

    Even at the height of the boom, this scheme could have never made any sense: but now we are already mortgaging the financial wellbeing of future generations merely to pay for day-to-day government expenditure. Have we not learnt from the Tiger days that grandiosity is invariably rewarded with an even grander failure?

    It is clinically insane to borrow yet more money to build an underground railway -- parallel to the existing and hugely under-used Port Tunnel -- in order to cut a few minutes off the travel time to the airport from St Stephen's Green, WHERE ALMOST NO ONE WILL BEGIN THEIR JOURNEYS ANYWAY.

    MOST worryingly of all, senior civil servants have clearly taken the Metro project to their hearts, so ministers are hardly ever likely to hear a sceptical analysis of the last great undertaking left over from the boom days. And one perfectly lethal argument that government advisers can always adduce in favour of Metro North is that: "It will require great political courage, Minister."

    For what politician can ever refuse a project that will make him seem brave? But this is the courage of the foolhardy general sending his division to their doom, not the greater courage of the wiser sergeant who ignores an insane order.

    The clinching argument against Metro North is this: what real damage is done if it is cancelled? And what irreversible ruin might result if it is given the go-ahead? This project is both mad and immoral and our new Government must have the courage to stop it. NOW!

    - Kevin Myers


  • #560
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    lods wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/opinion/columnists/kevin-myers/kevin-myers-metro-north-is-mad-and-immoral-our-new-government-must-have-the-courage-to-stop-it-2573524.html

    The RPA must love it when Myers comes out with this guff - they couldn't have chosen their opponents' cheerleader better. The only thing worse than having Myers on your side is Eoghan Harris joining your campaign too.

    Lods, how do you feel about the new Minister for Transport? You know, the guy who actually uses public transport, understands the importance of an efficient, integrated PT system and who represents a constituency that will benefit from Metro North & West and Dart Underground?


  • #561
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Does anyone know if Myers actually uses public transport in Dublin on a regular basis at rush hour?


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  • #562
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    Does anyone know if Myers actually uses public transport in Dublin on a regular basis at rush hour?

    He lives in the middle of nowhere near Ballymore Eustace in Co Kildare. Made a big deal a few years ago of leaving Dublin for the countryside. Used to live in Ranelagh, a few hundred metres from Ranelagh Luas stop, I believe, but left before the first trams wizzed by.


  • #563
    Zebra3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭Zebra3


    Jack Noble wrote: »
    He lives in the middle of nowhere near Ballymore Eustace in Co Kildare. Made a big deal a few years ago of leaving Dublin for the countryside. Used to live in Ranelagh, a few hundred metres from Ranelagh Luas stop, I believe, but left before the first trams wizzed by.

    So can someone living in the heart of Dublin credibly write in a national newspaper about local boat services for island's off the coast of Kerry then?


  • #564
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    Zebra3 wrote: »
    So can someone living in the heart of Dublin credibly write in a national newspaper about local boat services for island's off the coast of Kerry then?

    Myers doesn't do credibily - except possibly when dealing with his two other favourite topics, HM Armed Forces and Provo/Shinner-bashing.

    Seriously, the only credible facts he has had in the now six rants against Metro North is the name of the project and the agency developing it.


  • #565
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    Jack Noble wrote: »
    Myers doesn't do credibily - except possibly when dealing with his two other favourite topics, HM Armed Forces and Provo/Shinner-bashing.

    Seriously, the only credible facts he has had in the now six rants against Metro North is the name of the project and the agency developing it.

    What part doesn't make sense? Seriously, what bit?

    He's spot on apart from complaining about the actual construction and the resulting inconveniences. I wouldn't agree with those who oppose MN just because of the digging - I oppose it because it doesn't make sense. It is is not an efficient use of the transport budget and it is an expensive railway that will serve relatively few.


  • #566
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    BrianD wrote: »
    What part doesn't make sense? Seriously, what bit?

    He's spot on apart from complaining about the actual construction and the resulting inconveniences. I wouldn't agree with those who oppose MN just because of the digging - I oppose it because it doesn't make sense. It is is not an efficient use of the transport budget and it is an expensive railway that will serve relatively few.

    This feels somewhat like history repeating its self...

    You have already wrongly claimed that Metro North does not serve any other population centres other than Swords and you tried to claim there is no density inside the M50 when the greatest density is inside the M50. My reply on the Dart Underground thread is here, just in case you missed it??? :)

    To add to that argument Metro North allows Metro West to serve more of north Finglas, and areas like Blanchardstown.


  • #567
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    Metro north is a pretty straight metro line starting (ideally) right beside a northern approach motorway (P&R!), taking in a large county town, an international airport, the RoI's only IKEA, a massive housing development that was robbed of decent public transport from day one (Ballymun-never had a chance), reltively dense middle class areas with lots of infill development of the apartment type (see monument's excellent post on the matter), a large university, 2 major hospitals (Mater and Rotunda), an 80,000 seater sports stadium, the core north and south inner city business districts and along the way the plan is to integrate with DART at 2 locations and with the tram at even more. It does not take some meandering path to achive all this connectivity and I GUARANTEE all the nay-sayers that if metro north is EVER built (even without DU, which would be a crying shame) it will not only be highly patronised but will actually make an operating profit, just like Luas.

    If this was any other major European city this link would have been built years ago and would have already been extended to meet the DART on the northern line!


  • #568
    lods
    Registered Users Posts: 569 ✭✭✭lods


    murphaph wrote: »
    I GUARANTEE all the nay-sayers that if metro north is EVER built (even without DU, which would be a crying shame) it will not only be highly patronised but will actually make an operating profit, just like Luas.
    RPA not directed by state to recover Luas costs
    25 June 2006 By Richard Curran

    The €238,000 surplus for the Luas reported by the Railway Procurement Agency (RPA) last week did not include a €24 million depreciation charge for the fall in the value of the network or €35 million in exchequer funding towards the cost of building it.

    When depreciation is included as an operating cost, as it is in most businesses, the state’s subvention helped to bring about a modest operating surplus. However, the government has not directed the RPA to recover from Luas’s operations any of the €775 million it cost to build it.

    Frank Allen, the RPA chief executive, said it was instructed to ensure the Luas broke even and did not require an operating subvention from the state in the future.

    This enabled the agency to report that LUAS made a €238,000 surplus last year, which excluded the depreciation or the state’s capital grants towards the cost of construction. Neither did the surplus figure trumpeted by the RPA include any administration expenses incurred by the agency in relation to Luas.

    If depreciation is included, as it would for most typical businesses, Luas made a loss of €24 million before exchequer funding. Based on these figures the state’s total subvention was equal to €1.09 for every passenger journey.

    Allen acknowledged that the €238,000 described as a surplus by the RPA last week was equivalent to Luas’s earnings before interest, depreciation and tax (EBIT).

    However, he rejected the suggestion that describing it as a surplus was in any way misleading because of the specific nature of the business. Typically businesses include their depreciation charges as part of their operating costs.

    The RPA did this, but highlighted the more positive figure at its press conference last week on the basis that it doesn’t have to try and recoup those building costs. He said infrastructure firms are different.

    ‘‘No toll road in the world for example has recovered its capital costs. We do not recover capital costs,” he said. Allen said the goal set by the Department of Finance was to ensure that an operating subvention was not needed, and that means ensuring a break even. He said the Luas had achieved this ahead of schedule.

    ‘‘Our accounting approach is approved by our auditors and we are not doing anything unusual,” he said. He cited several international toll road companies that tried to recover their capital costs and they went bust. ‘‘Toll bridges recover capital costs, toll roads don’t,” he said.

    The annual report shows the LUAS with an operating surplus of €957,000 when depreciation is included, but that also includes €34 million in grants and administrative expenses for the RPA.

    Allen said the RPA head office operations were doing less and less work on Luas and there was nothing wrong in not attributing any of its €9.4 million administration costs in reporting a €238,000 surplus.

    http://www.thepost.ie/post/pages/p/s...268-qqqx=1.asp

    it all depends how you manipulate the figures.


  • #569
    dynamick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭dynamick


    On an infrastructure project there is a a once-off build cost (the capital cost) and a running cost every year thereafter. The income from Luas covers its running costs.

    The subvention covers repayment of the capital cost which is about €2 per trip on Luas. Subvention per trip on Metro North will be around €4.75 (assuming build cost of 2.5bn, 34m pax, 5%, 30yr term and ignoring income from the MN Supplementary Development Contribution Scheme.)


  • #570
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    As a matter of interest does anyone know what the subvention per passenger Journey is on: IÉ, Bus Éireann, Dublin Bus?


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  • #571
    murphaph
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,031 ✭✭✭✭murphaph


    lods wrote: »
    it all depends how you manipulate the figures.
    No it doesn't. Read your article again. It says that even allowing for depreciation, the Luas made an operating profit and the depreciation was massive (due to our recession no doubt).

    This is EXACTLY what I said and I specifically said operating profit to exclude the construction costs which will fade into memory within a generation and this piece of infrastructure will still be ferrying workers about in 100 years. Nobody asks how much it cost to build the Picadilly line anymore, and rightly so.


  • #572
    dynamick
    Closed Accounts Posts: 724 ✭✭✭dynamick


    dubhthach wrote: »
    As a matter of interest does anyone know what the subvention per passenger Journey is on: IÉ, Bus Éireann, Dublin Bus?
    2009 numbers (I think that 2010 may be in the press somewhere by now)

    Dublin Bus
    pax:128m subvention:€83.2m subvention per trip:0.65c

    Bus Eireann
    pax:85m subvention:€49.3m subvention per trip:0.58c

    Irish Rail
    pax:39m subvention:€170.6 subvention per trip:€4.37

    couple of notes:
    1. Capital grants are not included in these figures. The state buys equipment for these companies and just gives it to them as far as I know.
    2. The amount subvented per trip varies widely across services. eg Irish Rail on the Western Rail Corridor receive over €150 per trip while DART is said to be profitable (no subsidy).

    --edit--
    2010 numbers:

    Dublin Bus
    121m pax €75.8m subvention sub/trip:0.63c

    Irish Rail
    38.3m pax €151m subvention sub/trip:€3.94


  • #573
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    monument wrote: »
    This feels somewhat like history repeating its self...

    You have already wrongly claimed that Metro North does not serve any other population centres other than Swords and you tried to claim there is no density inside the M50 when the greatest density is inside the M50. My reply on the Dart Underground thread is here, just in case you missed it??? :)

    To add to that argument Metro North allows Metro West to serve more of north Finglas, and areas like Blanchardstown.

    Wrong? Do point out. I'm waiting.

    Last time I checked the MN went to Swords a town of some 40K. I am aware that it doesn't uplink there and magically reappears in the CBD. The concept of building and expensive rail link underneath practically nobody hasn't eluded me.

    There is no density within the M50 that justifys MN! Check the figures, go there and have a look around. Loads of 2 story houses. Not sure exactly what point you were trying to make in the above post? Bus is the way forward for these areas.


  • #574
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    BrianD wrote: »
    Wrong? Do point out. I'm waiting.

    Last time I checked the MN went to Swords a town of some 40K. I am aware that it doesn't uplink there and magically reappears in the CBD. The concept of building and expensive rail link underneath practically nobody hasn't eluded me.

    There is no density within the M50 that justifys MN! Check the figures, go there and have a look around. Loads of 2 story houses. Not sure exactly what point you were trying to make in the above post? Bus is the way forward for these areas.

    What densties justify a light rail link, in your opinion? And what are the densities along Metro North corridor?

    You keep telling us North Dublin city does not have the densities to justify Metro North, so you give us the figures.

    Back up your argument on this thread with hard numbers.


  • #575
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    BrianD wrote: »
    Wrong? Do point out. I'm waiting.

    Last time I checked the MN went to Swords a town of some 40K. I am aware that it doesn't uplink there and magically reappears in the CBD. The concept of building and expensive rail link underneath practically nobody hasn't eluded me.

    There is no density within the M50 that justifys MN! Check the figures, go there and have a look around. Loads of 2 story houses. Not sure exactly what point you were trying to make in the above post? Bus is the way forward for these areas.

    No density within the M50? Have you really looked at my post yet?

    At this stage it just seems like you're anti-rail.

    The reason it's being built underground isn't just to serve people, but largely because there is no room overground for proper busways or tram lines along the route. Again, you're living in dream land.

    BrianD wrote: »
    Please go visit Ballymun is going low rise and Northwood is a couple of nice apartment blocks in quasi parkland. All of these "redevlopments" you speak off are small fry compared with what is actually needed.

    I have. I know the areas well.

    Are you by any change getting mixed up with hight and density? Hight does not always equal density. High density is achieved in most cities by spread out density, not hight.

    BrianD wrote: »
    Will people walk from Phibsborough to the nearest MN station when they'd be in to town faster on a bus? People are already complaining about "how far" Docklands rail station is from anywhere!

    The Matter stop is in Phibsborough. At peak times metro into town would be faster and more reliable. I'd love to know what bus would get you from the Matter to the Green and beyond faster than an underground metro.

    BrianD wrote: »
    The council has overruled most major multistory developments, we're stuck with a general 6 story limit instead of 8 and most neighbourhoods go bananas when any sort of high density is proposed. Can you realistically see most of MN corridor within the M50 being bulldozed and higher density developments being built?

    The route does not and will unlikely ever have the population density to justify the staggering amounts required to construct Metro North.

    Need I go on? Or is reality too much?

    You're talking nonsense. From "only 2 story low density housing is being served within the M50 ring" to more sweeping statements like "most of MN corridor within the M50 being bulldozed".

    You're still in denial that there is already density along the route. Those maps I linked to are based on census data, not my views.

    Phibsborough and Ballymun are set by the council at 16 storeys for residential and 12 storeys for offices, or up to 50m. There are problems with the development plan being overly restrictive, but that can be changed, a project like Metro North is not for the short term.

    BrianD wrote: »
    Jack. I take it you live in Dublin? Drive the route, look around - you wouldn't need a census document to tell you the obvious. Visit Barcelona and you can see immediately why it works.... this shiny overpriced project will detract from providing real transport solutions for Dublin.

    Have you driven the route, because you keep suggesting buses where there is no room for them. Driving the route misses most of the larger apartment blocks and other development I linked to.


  • #576
    donvito99
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,818 ✭✭✭donvito99


    BrianD wrote: »
    There is no density within the M50 that justifys MN! Check the figures, go there and have a look around. Loads of 2 story houses. Not sure exactly what point you were trying to make in the above post? Bus is the way forward for these areas.

    Then what is justified? A magic QBC? A Luas that floats above traffic? A DART spur that protrudes at right angles from the Northern Line?

    This debate goes both ways. What is your incredibly cost efficient solution...I have a feeling its one of the above...


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  • #577
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    murphaph wrote: »
    No it doesn't. Read your article again. It says that even allowing for depreciation, the Luas made an operating profit and the depreciation was massive (due to our recession no doubt).

    This is EXACTLY what I said and I specifically said operating profit to exclude the construction costs which will fade into memory within a generation and this piece of infrastructure will still be ferrying workers about in 100 years. Nobody asks how much it cost to build the Picadilly line anymore, and rightly so.

    Same logic could be applied to the current banking situation. Nobody seems to want that one to fade into memory.


  • #578
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    BrianD wrote: »
    Same logic could be applied to the current banking situation. Nobody seems to want that one to fade into memory.

    Can you offer anything but rhetoric or generalisations and poor examples which you flip flop from one to another. Almost all your main points are disprove:
    • You keep saying that there is no density within the M50 but the census data mapped out shows the high density within the M50.

    • You claimed that "only 2 story low density housing is being served within the M50", when clearly that is wrong.

    • You seem to be confusing hight with density. While the two are interlinked, one does not always mean the other. The mixed but overall high density areas in and around Ballymun are an example of this.

    • You keep saying buses should serve high density areas around Ballymun, but you're not dealing with the reality of the routes between it and the city being small roads and/or heavily congested routes.

    • You don't seem to be able to compare like with like. You claim Dublin needs Barcelona-like density to support one partly underground metro line. Nobody is suggesting Barcelona-like 11 metro lines (which are largely underground?).

    • You claimed Swords should be served by the heavily congested Northern line. People could be buses there. The example you used is Dachau in Germany where under 2.5km gets you from almost ever where in the town to the main train station with U-Bahn services, most of the town is around 1km from a train station. And you were trying to compare that to Swords where it's nearly 7km to the Northern line from parts of the town and the large bulk of housing is about 5km away from a train station.

    • You tried to claim nobody in Phibsborough would walk to a metro stop as if the nearest stop was miles away. But the Matter stop is in Phibsborough.

    • You talk about the whole route as if there is no room for more density. When there's loads of room around Swords, the areas north of Ballymun, and Ballymun its self. While Phibsborough is likely to be redeveloped sooner or later. And there's other small and large pockets of land which can be developed along the canal, in Drumcondra and even some in Glasnevin.

    • You seem to be anti-rail and you seem to be in denial that Luas and Dart have been overall good projects which have added a lot to the city.


    How can anybody trust what you're saying about Metro North?

    BrianD wrote: »
    This is the same old rehash. Thanks for the lovely Google views. I know the area well thank you very much and they only serve to enhance my point of view. The problem is, as always, is that your figures don't add up. You're attaching "very large" and " massive populations" to areas where they don't exist! A 'massive population' on the north circular road???? It's mainly 2-3 story Georgian houses last time I drove down there. In fact I'll stand corrected but I don't think there's any apt blocks on the NCR?

    DCU? Yes the metro will required to get them from the campus residences to the classrooms.

    The city can do quite well out of the the 3/4 tracking with the feeder bus services AND have change to do other projects.

    It is true to say that within the M50 has a RELATIVELY higher density than outside it. That's never been disputed. It's still low density 2 story housing.

    I do not accept that there there is no room for dedicated bus routes, lanes or other means of running express services. It's your supposition that there isn't. If we want them we can build them.

    I didn't bring up Dachau somebody else did but as a recent visitor there it demonstrated to me that this is a good solution for Swords. I don't see a single solution replacing MN but a series of solutions that work in an integrated manner and serve the city.

    So pie in the sky it ain't.

    More distractions.

    You can keep saying there's only two story houses inside the M50 until you're blue in the face. I've proven otherwise, please stop calling black white. Even a lot of the two story housing is not "low density 2 story housing" (ie a county house with a large garden), much of the two stories within the M50 are not even detached.

    Dachau was still your example. Three or four tracking or the northern line is planned anyway. Dublin needs both, not one or the other.

    Yes, so many DCU students live on campus that the car parks and nearby estates are not full of cars. Never mind DCU staff, on campus companies, or the Helix. :rolleyes:

    I said the North Circular Road area, go back and look at the links to see exactly where those apartments are. A bulk of the road it self, in the areas we are talking about, is three or more stories high, not two.

    If you think I'm wrong about there being no room for a bus way or BRT -- you prove me wrong. Show me your solutions -- start a new thread on it if its that groundbreaking. EDIT: You never did answer my questions on how you see BRT fitting into the route before on this thread.


  • #579
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    I' bored with it by now. Anyone else feel the same?

    My only negative issues with MN are Government commitment and its overall chances of being a long term financial and social success without DU.

    I tend to leave my very historical and personal preferences at the door, because at this stage we need something somewhere and fast.


  • #580
    BrianD
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,221 ✭✭✭BrianD


    monument wrote: »
    No density within the M50? Have you really looked at my post yet?

    At this stage it just seems like you're anti-rail.

    The reason it's being built underground isn't just to serve people, but largely because there is no room overground for proper busways or tram lines along the route. Again, you're living in dream land.




    I have. I know the areas well.

    Are you by any change getting mixed up with hight and density? Hight does not always equal density. High density is achieved in most cities by spread out density, not hight.




    The Matter stop is in Phibsborough. At peak times metro into town would be faster and more reliable. I'd love to know what bus would get you from the Matter to the Green and beyond faster than an underground metro.




    You're talking nonsense. From "only 2 story low density housing is being served within the M50 ring" to more sweeping statements like "most of MN corridor within the M50 being bulldozed".

    You're still in denial that there is already density along the route. Those maps I linked to are based on census data, not my views.

    Phibsborough and Ballymun are set by the council at 16 storeys for residential and 12 storeys for offices, or up to 50m. There are problems with the development plan being overly restrictive, but that can be changed, a project like Metro North is not for the short term.




    Have you driven the route, because you keep suggesting buses where there is no room for them. Driving the route misses most of the larger apartment blocks and other development I linked to.

    You ain't going to get it but the figures speak for themselves and that you can't dispute. Look at the census data.

    I'm not an anti-rail. If the population and the suers were there, I would be first to encourage it. Knock down houses and build as big a hole as you like to get it it done. However, the customers aren't there to justify the enormous cost of building it. That's the facts.

    Height and density? I don't think you get the difference. At the moment we have low density housing along the entire MN route. Allowing taller buildings automatically increases the density (assuming that they are occupied) of the same land area. Within the M50 most of the housing is long established. The opportunity to increase future density is limited. Limited that locals will object and limited because of the development plan. Even in the Swords area it's 2 story sprawl.
    The Matter stop is in Phibsborough. At peak times metro into town would be faster and more reliable. I'd love to know what bus would get you from the Matter to the Green and beyond faster than an underground metro.

    Providing a helicopter service would! Shall we do that? It would be faster direct and more reliable? Your arguement is null and void. Buses are a perfectly reliable means of transport and at the right price point.

    S it happens, the distance from the Mater to Phibsborough would make it more practical to take the bus and you'd have a greater range of destinations.

    Anyway George Hook is talking about Metro North now on Newstalk (Tuesday March 14th)


  • #581
    markpb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,342 ✭✭✭markpb


    BrianD wrote: »
    You ain't going to get it but the figures speak for themselves and that you can't dispute. Look at the census data.

    What figures?
    Height and density? I don't think you get the difference. At the moment we have low density housing along the entire MN route.

    There are areas of low density housing and areas of medium density like the ones that monument has shown. Even without the metro, there was a huge amount of infill development over the last ten years which has resulted in a rising density. If proper public transport was provided, there is still a huge amount of scope for further densification.

    There are massive amounts of undeveloped space right beside the proposed station at Ballymun, there is the DPT boring site opposite Whitehall church, there is the church lands at Holy Cross and on Griffith avenue if they ever decide to sell, there is more at St. Pats if they wanted to move to DCU-2 at Griffith and all of that is before you get to existing houses which could be demolished and replaced with higher density apartment blocks over time.


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  • #582
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    BrianD wrote: »
    You ain't going to get it but the figures speak for themselves and that you can't dispute. Look at the census data.

    I'm not an anti-rail. If the population and the suers were there, I would be first to encourage it. Knock down houses and build as big a hole as you like to get it it done. However, the customers aren't there to justify the enormous cost of building it. That's the facts.

    What density and population is needed for Metro North? What are you basing this on?

    And while you're at it what densities and populations are needed for Dart Underground, Luas and Commuter rail?

    BrianD wrote: »
    Height and density? I don't think you get the difference. At the moment we have low density housing along the entire MN route. Allowing taller buildings automatically increases the density (assuming that they are occupied) of the same land area. Within the M50 most of the housing is long established. The opportunity to increase future density is limited. Limited that locals will object and limited because of the development plan. Even in the Swords area it's 2 story sprawl.

    You're not getting it.

    You've lost the argument about density and population within the M50. What the census shows is the largest density and largest population within the M50. Of the whole Greater Dublin Area, 47% of people live within the M50.

    Loads of opportunity to increase density in Swords, the areas north of Ballymun, in Ballymun, in Phibsborough, and around the north circular road. Even in Glasnevin and Drumcondra there's some scope -- there's a surprising amount of scope as mentioned in the above post. With Metro West feeding into Metro North, you're also talking about North Finglas and the areas around Blanch.

    BrianD wrote: »
    Providing a helicopter service would! Shall we do that? It would be faster direct and more reliable? Your arguement is null and void. Buses are a perfectly reliable means of transport and at the right price point.

    S it happens, the distance from the Mater to Phibsborough would make it more practical to take the bus and you'd have a greater range of destinations.

    Stop making up arguments. And any chance of leaving the rhetoric out?

    I argued against you claiming that nobody in Phibsborough would use a metro stop on their doorstep. Buses will remain important, that does not mean nobody will use Metro North as you were trying to claim. Even in London, with it's Underground network, buses are a cornerstone of the public transport system. It's a network, not one or the other.


  • #583
    OurLadyofKnock
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 558 ✭✭✭OurLadyofKnock


    BrianD wrote: »

    There is no density within the M50 that justifys MN! Check the figures, go there and have a look around. Loads of 2 story houses. Not sure exactly what point you were trying to make in the above post? Bus is the way forward for these areas.


    The CIE religion never ceases to amaze me.


  • #584
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    Here's another little hint/clue to the upfront cost to the State of Metro North.

    Remember the Greens using the figure €700million in an election document?

    Well, I would now suggest it may have some credence.

    From the Metro North Facebook page operated by the RPA - it's in a reply to the Junkman's No to Metro North post on the latest Ryanair guff re €5billion cost of Metro:
    http://www.facebook.com/pages/Metro-North/139624076083382


    Metro North will cost far less than €5 billion to build and despite what Ryanair choose to believe is not just an airport metro. Indeed, RPA would agree with Ryanair that a rail line whose sole purpose is serving the airport could not be ju...stified. Metro North will serve the north side of Dublin and provide excellent interchange with rail and bus, serve shopping districts, universities, hospitals and will provide a world class transport system reducing journey times, getting people out of cars and contributing significantly to the continued economic vibrancy of Dublin.

    The project is ready to go, will create over 6,000 jobs during construction and provide an economic return in excess of €1billion. For every €1 million spent on Metro North construction €1.5 million will go back into the Irish economy.

    Two thirds of in excess of €1bn comes in at circa €700m, does it not?


  • #585
    lods
    Registered Users Posts: 569 ✭✭✭lods


    Jack Noble wrote: »
    Here's another little hint/clue to the upfront cost to the State of Metro North.

    Remember the Greens using the figure €700million in an election document?

    Well, I would now suggest it may have some credence.

    From the Metro North Facebook page operated by the RPA - it's in a reply to the Junkman's No to Metro North post on the latest Ryanair guff re €5billion cost of Metro:



    Two thirds of in excess of €1bn comes in at circa €700m, does it not?

    Are they including what they spent already in the 700 million


  • #586
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    lods wrote: »
    Are they including what they spent already in the 700 million

    The Green Party figure was in a budget document for the years 2011 to 2014 so my understanding is that €700m would include the circa €250m earmarked this year and next for enabling works.

    Does it include the €135m spent to date on design, property acquistion, consultancy, etc? That I don't know.

    But that's two separate sources where the figure €700m is apparent.

    Coincidence?


  • #587
    lods
    Registered Users Posts: 569 ✭✭✭lods


    Jack Noble wrote: »
    The Green Party figure was in a budget document for the years 2011 to 2014 so my understanding is that €700m would include the circa €250m earmarked this year and next for enabling works.

    Does it include the €135m spent to date on design, property acquistion, consultancy, etc? That I don't know.

    But that's two separate sources where the figure €700m is apparent.

    Coincidence?

    It suits the RPA to put out a low figure in spin , without having to stand over the figure . Just the RPA trying to force the government into allowing it to do the enabling works .


  • #588
    Jack Noble
    Registered Users Posts: 426 ✭✭Jack Noble


    lods wrote: »
    It suits the RPA to put out a low figure in spin , without having to stand over the figure . Just the RPA trying to force the government into allowing it to do the enabling works .

    Call it what you like but I'm more interested that the Greens had the €700m in their budget document - seeing as they had access to the actual figures presented to the Cabinet and being used by Finance and Transport.

    I believe the Greens let the real figure slip out during the election - the RPA comment today on Facebook simply confirms what the GP said, IMHO.

    But we'll know for sure later this year.


  • #589
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    lods wrote: »
    It suits the RPA to put out a low figure in spin , without having to stand over the figure . Just the RPA trying to force the government into allowing it to do the enabling works .
    In order to believe that, you'd have to be pretty paranoid, you'd have to believe that the RPA were only pushing this because it's their pet project. And not because 100s of thousands of Dubliners want it and will use it all the time.

    Are we still on track for an April start to the enabling works? I remember the outgoing gov saying that was the plan.


  • #590
    spacetweek
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,144 Mod ✭✭✭✭spacetweek


    markpb wrote: »
    There are areas of low density housing and areas of medium density like the ones that monument has shown. Even without the metro, there was a huge amount of infill development over the last ten years which has resulted in a rising density. If proper public transport was provided, there is still a huge amount of scope for further densification.

    ...and all of that is before you get to existing houses which could be demolished and replaced with higher density apartment blocks over time.
    Correct. I lived in Melbourne and Sydney for a few months back in the day. A pair of larger urban sprawl zones you'll never see.

    And yet, great public transport. In Melbourne it was a large commuter rail system backed up by trams, buses and a large network of motorways which fed park and rides. In Sydney it was a large urban heavy rail system with some underground sections backed up by buses, motorways and park and ride sites.

    But most of all, I saw that they were making judicious use of infill. The street I lived on was lined with bungalows, and the occasional random apartment block with around 10 units. It was obvious from their randomness that they didn't date from the construction of the street and had been created by knocking down adjacent pairs of houses and building the block. There was a Cityrail station five minutes away. Additionally, train stations would often have shopping and medium-intensity developments in the immediate vicinity, to further boost numbers.

    It wasn't perfect of course but I really think Australia shows that you can have good public transport even in a low-density city. Dublin needs DART, Metro North and possibly 1 more metro line, backed up by a small number of Luas extensions, a bus overhaul, and the construction of larger park and ride sites in commuter towns. We already have the motorways and the bones of the rail. Once MN and DU get going, the rest is pretty easy. A second Metro line will be easier to justify when the first one is a success (which it will) and the Luas extensions will sail through cause people can already see that the Luas is a success.


  • #591
    G_R
    Moderators, Education Moderators Posts: 5,028 Mod ✭✭✭✭G_R


    from Build.ie
    According to an unpublished Government brief, further delays to Metro North in Dublin are "not an option" and could undermine the State's ability to seek investors for other major infrastructure projects.

    Officials at the Department of Transport have said the Government need to either scrap the proposed 18km rail link from St Stephen's Green to Swords or proceed quickly with enabling works.

    The delays have affected the two bidders involved in the procurement process for the planned Metro, who have had to invest significant sums of money to keep their teams mobilised. The brief stated: "If the project does not proceed based on this competition it is highly unlikely that bidders with the requisite skills would invest the substantial sums required to put another bid together.

    "This could also have a serious impact on the credibility of the Government as a counter-party for PPP [public-private partnership] deals for other major infrastructure investment projects."

    - - - - - - Advertisement - - - - - -


    Fine Gael and Labour's programme for government does give a firm commitment to funding Metro North, but it pledges to support high-capacity commuter services subject to cost-benefit analysis.

    The full extent of the exchequer budget for the project has not been disclosed though it is estimated to be somewhere in the region of €3 billion.

    The Railway Procurement Agency have prepared the latest estimates on the business case for the Metro, and they estimate it would yield €2 in economic benefits for every €1 spent on its construction. Officials also estimate that it could create about 4,000 construction jobs, as well as 2,000 other posts linked to the project during the construction period.

    According to records released under the Freedom of Information Act, State has already spent about €135 million on planning, diverting utilities and works on heritage for Metro North and a further €45 million is expected to be spent on similar works this year.

    This brings the total spend on Metro North to almost €175 million before the project has received formal Government approval.

    Some commentators have advocated scrapping Metro North and focusing on the proposed Dart Underground scheme on the basis that it would be cheaper, benefit more passengers and yield a greater economic return.

    This project would involve building a tunnel to link the Docklands and Inchicore, which would provide underground stations in the city and link existing rail systems such as the Luas and Inter-city trains.

    In unpublished records, department officials say a straight comparison between Metro and the Dart Underground is difficult as they have different objectives.

    Given the pressure on the public finances, the previous government announced last year that it would not be possible to fund the Dart project in the near future.

    (JG)

    http://www.build.ie/national_news.asp?newsid=124159


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  • #592
    runway16
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭runway16


    There's a real venom againnst MN the likes of which I have never seen against any infrastructure project in Ireland.

    We have a collection of "Irish Independent" types, Myers, MOL and all, who continue to propogate out and out lies, and hold to the line that MN is just an airport rail link. Their slavish insistence on telling these mistruths tells me there is something much deeper to the outright hostility towards this project - one which obviously in the minds of these people, completely outweighs the wishes of the People of that part of the City, who lets face it, quite obviously outnumber Myers, O'Leary, Carroll and their Cronies.

    So if anyone knows exactly what their major issue is, their issue which makes them tell complete lies - over and over again so (hopefully for them) they stick, can they please come out and tell us exactly what this issue is??

    The stupid bloody people of this country crowed on during the boom about how we failed to invest in transport infrastructure in readiness for the boom.... and now, on the edge of us making that investment, they cry stop??? They say we dont need this?? They try to pretend that a Metropolitan area of about 1.6 million people doesnt need an efficient rail system?

    They claim that BUS is the way forward when BUS has manifestly failed to get ENOUGH people out of their cars, and failed to make the city a more attractive place to live?

    What is the real agenda folks - out with it!!!!??


  • #593
    OurLadyofKnock
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 558 ✭✭✭OurLadyofKnock


    runway16 wrote: »
    There's a real venom againnst MN the likes of which I have never seen against any infrastructure project in Ireland.

    The anti-Luas "journalism" was worse believe it or not. It was more or less the same shower that time too.

    You have to realise that many people who are journalists are actually socialised psychopaths.

    They are drawn to the power overload of the profession as it allows the psychopath who is generally an expert on nothing - to not only pontificate in order to indulge his/her pathological need to adore his/her own god complex, but the power trip it provides these individuals is thrilling to them. I would have to say Irish journalism per head has more observable clinical psychopaths at the top of the profession than even places such as Irish politics, banking and property development where one would expect to come across psychopathic clustering to a far greater degree. Psychopaths are the greatest social problem we face in the world today. I even wrote a book about it.

    http://www.amazon.co.uk/Puzzling-People-Psychopath-Thomas-Sheridan/dp/1905605285/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1300302052&sr=8-1

    They hide their pathology behind a mask of sanity and expertise - when they are in fact, they are just dangerous lunatics who have no belief in anything really and just enjoy destroying people, societies and nations. When you see crusades like this against metro north - you are often dealing with psychopaths who have found what they percieve is an "easy target" to go after and destroy in order to feed their egos and sense of importance. They are not interested in facts. This is why they still trot out the 5 billion figure constantly. Rather their psychopathic need for power over the perceptions of others is what motivates them.

    Journalism is not a profession which draws (for the most part) healthy people at all. Most are happy propagandists and some are outright psychopaths. Take your pick. I haven't named any names in this thread. That's not for me to do. However, I think it is becoming increasingly obvious with this latest journalistic crusade and comparing it to previous ones which media types are not interested in anything other than destruction of infrastructure projects as it makes them feel important. There is nothing about this kind of behaviour which is normal in any way. They know that people on this thread are upset and angry reading the grabage they publish in newpapers and say on TV/Radio and they love it. They enjoy causing negative feelings in others as it is basically the only thing a psychopath can do in order to feel alive to begin with.

    The solution is to stop feeding the beast. Stop buying newspapers, visting their websites and switch off TV and the entire world they have created to mess with the rest of us which lose advertising revenue and collapse.


  • #594
    runway16
    Registered Users Posts: 304 ✭✭runway16


    I remember the debate on Luas, I dont think O'leary got involved that time, but yes, I remember it was quite a debate.

    O'leary getting involved always worries me because far too many people in this country lend credance to the self serving tripe he comes out with on transport issues. It's all to serve the "greater" interest of Ryanair at all times, and everyone working in aviation knows it - its just a pity more people dont listen to us.


  • #595
    lods
    Registered Users Posts: 569 ✭✭✭lods


    spacetweek wrote: »
    In order to believe that, you'd have to be pretty paranoid, you'd have to believe that the RPA were only pushing this because it's their pet project. And not because 100s of thousands of Dubliners want it and will use it all the time.

    Are we still on track for an April start to the enabling works? I remember the outgoing gov saying that was the plan.

    Just because your paranoid, does not mean they are not all out to get you:)

    The RPA are fighting for their existence. The best case scenario is a merge with the NRA. With Veolia running Luas & no other project in the pipeline , one could argue they are not needed .


  • #596
    lods
    Registered Users Posts: 569 ✭✭✭lods


    runway16 wrote: »
    There's a real venom againnst MN the likes of which I have never seen against any infrastructure project in Ireland.

    We have a collection of "Irish Independent" types, Myers, MOL and all, who continue to propogate out and out lies, and hold to the line that MN is just an airport rail link. Their slavish insistence on telling these mistruths tells me there is something much deeper to the outright hostility towards this project - one which obviously in the minds of these people, completely outweighs the wishes of the People of that part of the City, who lets face it, quite obviously outnumber Myers, O'Leary, Carroll and their Cronies.

    So if anyone knows exactly what their major issue is, their issue which makes them tell complete lies - over and over again so (hopefully for them) they stick, can they please come out and tell us exactly what this issue is??

    The stupid bloody people of this country crowed on during the boom about how we failed to invest in transport infrastructure in readiness for the boom.... and now, on the edge of us making that investment, they cry stop??? They say we dont need this?? They try to pretend that a Metropolitan area of about 1.6 million people doesnt need an efficient rail system?

    They claim that BUS is the way forward when BUS has manifestly failed to get ENOUGH people out of their cars, and failed to make the city a more attractive place to live?

    What is the real agenda folks - out with it!!!!??

    I think the RPA handled things very badly & pushed through their preferred route & were supported by developers in O'Connell Street that want particular stations close to their new developments . They alienated a lot of people. They denied the existence of a document which was then made available to those that the RPA had promised that it didn't exist. They failed to engage with people until very late in the day.


  • #597
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    runway16 wrote: »
    There's a real venom againnst MN the likes of which I have never seen against any infrastructure project in Ireland.

    We have a collection of "Irish Independent" types, Myers, MOL and all, who continue to propogate out and out lies, and hold to the line that MN is just an airport rail link. Their slavish insistence on telling these mistruths tells me there is something much deeper to the outright hostility towards this project - one which obviously in the minds of these people, completely outweighs the wishes of the People of that part of the City, who lets face it, quite obviously outnumber Myers, O'Leary, Carroll and their Cronies.

    So if anyone knows exactly what their major issue is, their issue which makes them tell complete lies - over and over again so (hopefully for them) they stick, can they please come out and tell us exactly what this issue is??

    The stupid bloody people of this country crowed on during the boom about how we failed to invest in transport infrastructure in readiness for the boom.... and now, on the edge of us making that investment, they cry stop??? They say we dont need this?? They try to pretend that a Metropolitan area of about 1.6 million people doesnt need an efficient rail system?

    They claim that BUS is the way forward when BUS has manifestly failed to get ENOUGH people out of their cars, and failed to make the city a more attractive place to live?

    What is the real agenda folks - out with it!!!!??

    In relation to the people with a so called agenda.

    It's a combination of their age, social class and life experiences. They are wrapped up in an ivory tower and conditioned to believe that Dublin can exist as a bus dominant public transport city for the working classes or a car dependent one for those who can afford all the costs that go with car ownership. They are traditional, lack vision in an urban environment and cannot fathom forms of change. Some of what they say is fair and valid, but the overall approach ruins anything interesting they have to say.

    I believe the anti MN stance comes from the way it was show boated by the FF lead Governments, while other projects like DU were cast adrift and it was left to others to try and promote it. Add to that the CIE induced culture that convinces many of its way of doing things, despite them actually hating CIE.

    Culture and Tradition are the reasons you are looking for. It has been conditioning this country since 1922 and don't doubt it.


  • #598
    OurLadyofKnock
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 558 ✭✭✭OurLadyofKnock


    DWCommuter wrote: »
    In relation to the people with a so called agenda.

    It's a combination of their age, social class and life experiences. They are wrapped up in an ivory tower and conditioned to believe that Dublin can exist as a bus dominant public transport city for the working classes or a car dependent one for those who can afford all the costs that go with car ownership.

    Spot on, and add this red herrings about the Boer War memorial and the Green being dug up. What! Why is this even brought up?

    The way absurd journalists go on about this one would think the Green is going to dug up and left as a pile of rubble following the construction of the DU/MN.

    To even suggest this and then expect people to believe that this is what is going to happen shows the level of "intellect" these stange little media pundits have. Are these obnoxious creatures actually claiming that the Green will be dug up and left as a mess and not restored? Just consider the mentality of such a statement. It leads to one of two conclusions:

    1. Irish journalists are mentally insane and really believe the Green will not be restored when the site works are completed? or:
    2. Irish Journalists know they are talking bollox and just put such notions out there to keep their names in the papers so nobody forgets their names?

    Neither stance does any favours to the city/country they claims to care about.

    Enough of these pathetic pundits. Many of them pathologically insane and more and more Irish people seem to be waking up to this which explains the collapse of newspapers sales and RTEs decent into ratings oblivion - they are all out of control, have too much public influence they do not deserve and need to be ignored.


  • #599
    DWCommuter
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,032 ✭✭✭DWCommuter


    OurLadyofKnock wrote: »
    Spot on, and add this red herrings about the Boer War memorial and the Green being dug up. What! Why is this even brought up?

    The way absurd journalists go on about this one would think the Green is going to dug up and left as a pile of rubble following the construction of the DU/MN.

    To even suggest this and then expect people to believe that this is what is going to happen shows the level of "intellect" these stange little media pundits have. Are these obnoxious creatures actually claiming that the Green will be dug up and left as a mess and not restored? Just consider the mentality of such a statement. It leads to one of two conclusions:

    1. Irish journalists are mentally insane and really believe the Green will not be restored when the site works are completed? or:
    2. Irish Journalists know they are talking bollox and just put such notions out there to keep their names in the papers so nobody forgets their names?

    Neither stance does any favours to the city/country they claims to care about.

    Enough of these pathetic pundits. Many of them pathologically insane and more and more Irish people seem to be waking up to this which explains the collapse of newspapers sales and RTEs decent into ratings oblivion - they are all out of control, have too much public influence they do not deserve and need to be ignored.

    A new brand of correspondent is needed. In fact many can be found on forums like this.

    Thats why I get so ****ing annoyed when Journalists are criticised along with politicians and the voluntary voice that makes some sense, is written off before its even explored. Anyone remember Platform 11? That was a voluntary voice that kicked some ass on rail issues and taught Irish Rail a few lessons along with the RPA. It was also a source of info for these pathetic pundits and politicians who earn money for being ordinary. The country needs an effective rail lobby more so now than it did in 2003.


  • #600
    Aard
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,905 ✭✭✭Aard


    WRT density, I found this image on the Bow Group website. All three scenarios have the same density (i.e. number of people in the same area), but one spreads the people out more horizontally, while another spreads them out more vertically.

    151891.png


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  • #601
    dubhthach
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,284 ✭✭✭dubhthach


    Aard wrote: »
    WRT density, I found this image on the Bow Group website. All three scenarios have the same density (i.e. number of people in the same area), but one spreads the people out more horizontally, while another spreads them out more vertically.

    151891.png

    Aard,

    Thanks for the image. Most people don't realise that "High-Rise/High density" Ballymun only had a density of 8 houses per acre, while Griffith avenue which consists of semi-detached houses has a density of 24 houses per acre!


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