Is the fear of Paedophilia preventing positive male role models?

Blisterman · 19-10-2012 12:44pm #1

I was thinking about this. There's definitely a culture nowadays of suspicion towards men that they might be paedophiles, even when there's absolutely no evidence to suggest so. It's quite a prejudice really, though one expressed by both sexes.

I know myself, I'd be very wary of being in a position where I'm alone with kids, lest there be any misunderstandings or false accusations, because when rumours start, even if they're completely unfounded, you're screwed. And speaking to other people, I'm far from being alone in feeling this way.

And it filters down. Men are becoming discouraged from volunteering to coach sports teams or teaching in primary schools, which is really sad. But more worrying is the fact that there are whole generations of kids growing up with very little meaningful interaction with adult men outside of their family.

I live in an area with a lot of gang violence among teenage boys. The absence or lack of involvement of a father being a nearly universal factor in common, and I wonder if the lack of male role models outside of their family is a contributing factor.

Obviously there do need to be some safeguards, and the stories of abuse in past decades are horrific, but I think the whole current atmosphere has gone too far, towards the realm of hysteria, and is in fact doing more harm than good.

What are people's thoughts?

cloud_dancer · 19-10-2012 1:29pm

I think it's very sad if this fear does indeed stops men from volunteering and being a role model for kids. Having a positive role model/mentor can make a huge difference to a young persons life. It can guide them down the right path and help them realise goals and dreams. I volunteer for a charity that matches a young teenage person with an adult mentor. The minimum commitment is a year and you meet with the young person once a week for a couple of hours. It helps the young person build all sorts of skills, increase confidence, social skills and self belief.

Being female paedophilia didn't cross my mind when I applied but I can see how some guys might hesitate to get involved for fear of rumours. I would hope that it doesn't stop anyone. Garda vetting is strict when working with young people and they do several interviews. The whole process for me took months and they don’t let everyone who applies through. As this is formally monitored it decreases the risk of suspicion but a less formal approach to mentoring could be misunderstood. For instance if a guy was to start mentoring a lad in the neighbourhood who might have no father. All it takes is one person (who may be jealous of your work) to cast a shadow of suspicion over you.

BTW hope you don't mind a lady posting on this thred

Zulu · 19-10-2012 1:34pm

cloud_dancer wrote: »

BTW hope you don't mind a lady posting on this thred

I doubt anyone minds you posting, but posting in "black" is a real pain in the arse for anyone who chooses the dark skin.

Frisbee · 19-10-2012 1:40pm

Absolutely. I was in one of the big Theme Parks on the Gold Coast a few months back and I saw a kid (about 4) pulling out of his mams grip while she was getting money out of the ATM. She couldn't leave the ATM as her money was counting out. She saw what was happening and shouted at him to come back. I was going to grab the kid until she could get over to where we were (about 20ft away) but was somewhat reluctant to do so in case she went bananas over me touching her child.

So in the end I just kind of awkwardly stood in front of him trying to stop him running any further and called my girlfriend to grab a hold of him.

Thinking back on it I probably should have just grabbed him to stop him getting any further away, but in the back of my head I wasn't willing to in the off chance she took issue with me.

Sleepy · 19-10-2012 1:46pm

I've done the exact same Frisbee...

It's mad, I'm a father, a step-father and a former Chilidline volunteer so I've been fully vetted and trained to deal with children and have experience with my own but since the general public doesn't know that, I'd be too scared of people misconstruing things to even have a chat with any child that wasn't my own outside of their parents presence.

Piliger · 19-10-2012 1:49pm

I had several appalling experiences when I was in my early thirties, when my son was a toddler and I took a career break to be at home with him, where totally innocent situations produced ridiculous responses from women. It was sickening to me.
As a result I rejected several approaches from my local rugby club to coach, and stayed far away from several similar offers from my son's primary school.
I advise any man to stay well away from any voluntary roles unless the current situation changes. I have urged my friends to do the same and have consistently been appalled by the sheer number of similar experiences that I hear about from my social circle. Any man who goes ahead is putting his life in the hands of what is a significant population of hysterical mothers and even a few fathers.

krudler · 19-10-2012 2:07pm

Piliger wrote: »

I had several appalling experiences when I was in my early thirties, when my son was a toddler and I took a career break to be at home with him, where totally innocent situations produced ridiculous responses from women. It was sickening to me.
As a result I rejected several approaches from my local rugby club to coach, and stayed far away from several similar offers from my son's primary school.
I advise any man to stay well away from any voluntary roles unless the current situation changes. I have urged my friends to do the same and have consistently been appalled by the sheer number of similar experiences that I hear about from my social circle. Any man who goes ahead is putting his life in the hands of what is a significant population of hysterical mothers and even a few fathers.

Anything in particular? not a father myself but I'd take my nephew who's 9 to cinema days and stuff like that the odd time.

Dravokivich · 19-10-2012 2:09pm

Piliger wrote: »

I advise any man to stay well away from any voluntary roles unless the current situation changes. I have urged my friends to do the same and have consistently been appalled by the sheer number of similar experiences that I hear about from my social circle. Any man who goes ahead is putting his life in the hands of what is a significant population of hysterical mothers and even a few fathers.

Unfortunately, all you are doing is reinforcing the myth as opposed to dispelling it.

The Corinthian · 19-10-2012 2:11pm

A few years ago, I was stopped by two of my neighbours kids (two boys, each around ten years of age) who chatted to me, principally about languages and getting me to translate words from English into a few of the languages I can speak. After a few moments, I got the uncomfortable feeling, almost of being watched, and that I was an adult male speaking to two minors. I made my excuses and went on my way.

More recently, while walking with my other half, we passed a parked car, where a child (girl, around eight) was crying. Her nibs went straight to the car, found out what was the matter, consoled and hugged her and went to find her mother, who had momentarily left her there alone. I stepped back - "not touching this with a bargepole", I thought to myself.

Had the my other half not been with me, I would have just walked on - helping out the child is simply not worth the risk. I can see it now; "Sorry madam, your child has suffered severe dehydration from being left alone so long, but on the bright side she wasn't molested".

And this is unfortunately not an uncommon feeling for men nowadays. Permanently feeling that we should not be seen alone with kids - our own fine, but if so we have to make it publicly obvious that they're our own. Knowing that any accusation, no matter how crazy it may be, would be enough to destroy our lives even if it didn't find us in jail.

It's an attitude that has gone from reasonable care to hysteria, fed by the media (who know any paedophile story will sell papers to increasingly paranoid parents) and that has bled into blatant gender discrimination even in practice, such as the policy of some airlines not to let an unrelated man sit next to a minor.

All despite the fact that while the majority of child abusers are male, there's no shortage of female ones either.

Problem is that there's little being done to oppose this. Feminism isn't interested. Men's rights groups couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery and have far too much on their plates anyway. And so the only opposition seems to be from professional groups (such primary teachers associations) and individual cases where men have sued, successfully, at such treatment.

Certainly plenty of people claim that this is a terrible state of affairs, but in practice, I don't see them doing much other than going with the flow - almost as if they favour more men working with children, as long as they're other peoples children.

eviltwin · 19-10-2012 2:19pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

A few years ago, I was stopped by two of my neighbours kids (two boys, each around ten years of age) who chatted to me, principally about languages and getting me to translate words from English into a few of the languages I can speak. After a few moments, I got the uncomfortable feeling, almost of being watched, and that I was an adult male speaking to two minors. I made my excuses and went on my way.

More recently, while walking with my other half, we passed a parked car, where a child (girl, around eight) was crying. Her nibs went straight to the car, found out what was the matter, consoled and hugged her and went to find her mother, who had momentarily left her there alone. I stepped back - "not touching this with a bargepole", I thought to myself.

Had the my other half not been with me, I would have just walked on - helping out the child is simply not worth the risk. I can see it now; "Sorry madam, your child has suffered severe dehydration from being left alone so long, but on the bright side she wasn't molested".

And this is unfortunately not an uncommon feeling for men nowadays. Permanently feeling that we should not be seen alone with kids - our own fine, but if so we have to make it publicly obvious that they're our own. Knowing that any accusation, no matter how crazy it may be, would be enough to destroy our lives even if it didn't find us in jail.

It's an attitude that has gone from reasonable care to hysteria, fed by the media (who know any paedophile story will sell papers to increasingly paranoid parents) and that has bled into blatant gender discrimination even in practice, such as the policy of some airlines not to let an unrelated man sit next to a minor.

All despite the fact that while the majority of child abusers are male, there's no shortage of female ones either.

Problem is that there's little being done to oppose this. Feminism isn't interested. Men's rights groups couldn't organize a piss-up in a brewery and have far too much on their plates anyway. And so the only opposition seems to be from professional groups (such primary teachers associations) and individual cases where men have sued, successfully, at such treatment.

Certainly plenty of people claim that this is a terrible state of affairs, but in practice, I don't see them doing much other than going with the flow - almost as if they favour more men working with children, as long as they're other peoples children.

You sound paranoid. My first thought when I see a man with a child who is not his own is not "paedophile". I don't know anyone who would think that way either.

The Corinthian · 19-10-2012 2:26pm

eviltwin wrote: »

You sound paranoid. My first thought when I see a man with a child who is not his own is not "paedophile". I don't know anyone who would think that way either.

Then there's no shortage of men who are paranoid, no shortage of attitudes, freely expressed, to make us paranoid, and no shortage of false accusations that have destroyed many a man's life.

Try being a man for a while and see how it feels.

howamidifferent · 19-10-2012 2:31pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Then there's no shortage of men who are paranoid, no shortage of attitudes, freely expressed, to make us paranoid, and no shortage of false accusations that have destroyed many a man's life.

Try being a man for a while and see how it feels.

I've expressed these very opinions to my wife and sisters many times.
Not in a million years will I stay alone with a minor except my own kids.

Sad but thats the way life is.

eviltwin · 19-10-2012 2:34pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Then there's no shortage of men who are paranoid, no shortage of attitudes, freely expressed, to make us paranoid, and no shortage of false accusations that have destroyed many a man's life.

Try being a man for a while and see how it feels.

I don't need to. I have a husband who has worked with kids, a single brother in law who works with kids and male friends who babysit my children and who are always around other children. Not one of them has ever been accused of anything untoward with a child. There have been no raised eyebrows, no nasty comments or questions raised. You can choose to believe that the world is out to paint you that way but the reality is most people are not so quick to judge.

Blisterman · 19-10-2012 2:43pm

I think a problem is that even if 99% of people are quite reasonable in the matter, all it takes is one person to take things the wrong way, and start talking, for these things to develop legs.

The Corinthian · 19-10-2012 2:45pm

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't need to. I have a husband who has worked with kids, a single brother in law who works with kids and male friends who babysit my children and who are always around other children. Not one of them has ever been accused of anything untoward with a child. There have been no raised eyebrows, no nasty comments or questions raised. You can choose to believe that the world is out to paint you that way but the reality is most people are not so quick to judge.

And I've known men who have been declined jobs working with children soley on their gender. And a man who was coaching swimming and was asked to leave after his brother was convicted of a sexual offence. Then there are the countless discussions where I have heard female friends blatantly argue that they would not be comfortable having a man look after their children, and even one discussion at a dinner party where one male guest, who took the time to play with the hosts kids, at the start of the evening, was (behind his back) accused of having an "unnatural interest" in them.

I would doubt that any of the examples you presented are as rosy as you make out in reality, even if they themselves have not realized it. Much of this prejudice is whispered in the background, or occurs when CV's are being culled. Not everyone is so quick to judge, but unfortunately there's plenty who do.

Neither can you deny this where it has become official policy - as per the aforementioned airlines. Men aren't imagining that.

As I said, you probably need to be a man to actually witness this. Otherwise, you're largely speaking from ignorance.

eviltwin · 19-10-2012 2:46pm

Blisterman wrote: »

I think a problem is that even if 99% of people are quite reasonable in the matter, all it takes is one person to take things the wrong way, and start talking, for these things to develop legs.

I can understand that and I have no issue with anyone taking precautions. I would be wary taking a lost child to a security desk in a shop. I've done it before and in the back of my head I've been hoping the parent or minder doesn't think I am trying to abduct them. But you can take it to extremes. I would find it a bit odd if a follow parent didn't engage with kids or if a neighbour ignored a child who spoke to them. I suppose you have to do what you feel you need to but totally distancing yourself from all children bar your own might backfire.

iptba · 19-10-2012 2:48pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

Unfortunately, all you are doing is reinforcing the myth as opposed to dispelling it.

It doesn't look like it was a myth - he had bad experiences:

I had several appalling experiences when I was in my early thirties, when my son was a toddler and I took a career break to be at home with him, where totally innocent situations produced ridiculous responses from women. It was sickening to me.

It's the responses he referred to that need to change.

eviltwin · 19-10-2012 2:48pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

And I've known men who have been declined jobs working with children soley on their gender. And a man who was coaching swimming and was asked to leave after his brother was convicted of a sexual offence. Then there are the countless discussions where I have heard female friends blatantly argue that they would not be comfortable having a man look after their children, and even one discussion at a dinner party where one male guest, who took the time to play with the hosts kids, at the start of the evening, was (behind his back) accused of having an "unnatural interest" in them.

I would doubt that any of the examples you presented are as rosy as you make out in reality, even if they themselves have not realized it. Much of this prejudice is whispered in the background, or occurs when CV's are being culled. Not everyone is so quick to judge, but unfortunately there's plenty who do.

Neither can you deny this where it has become official policy - as per the aforementioned airlines. Men aren't imagining that.

As I said, you probably need to be a man to actually witness this. Otherwise, you're largely speaking from ignorance.

Equally I think you have just highlighted some extreme examples.

The Corinthian · 19-10-2012 2:49pm

eviltwin wrote: »

I suppose you have to do what you feel you need to but totally distancing yourself from all children bar your own might backfire.

Yes it will, on everyone. Maybe then, when rugby is cut because there's no one to coach it, for example, people will cop on and have a rethink.

The Corinthian · 19-10-2012 2:50pm

eviltwin wrote: »

Equally I think you have just highlighted some extreme examples.

Airline policy that discriminates on gender, implying that men are natural child molesters, held by numerous companies, is an extreme example?

eviltwin · 19-10-2012 2:54pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

Airline policy that discriminates on gender, implying that men are natural child molesters, held by numerous companies, is an extreme example?

What policies, what companies? Its illegal to discriminate on the basis of gender. If you have proof its happening I suggest you contact the relevant authorities.

deandean · 19-10-2012 2:57pm

I have done some volunteering for stuff like this and it has gone fine, but it was in a school situation whereby I was already known to most parents.

But yes the situation as discussed has gotten ridiculous. Last year I suggested getting a group of parents together to bring about ten kids on an art outing, it would have saved about 200 Euro to not need a minibus. The teacher explained to me that no child can be left on his or our own with an adult, and the problem with cars is that if a child gets sick and has to be taken out of the car, he needs two adults with him because he cannot be alone with one adult. Then if you have another child left in the car you also need two adults to remain in the car, so that makes four adults in the car with one child, but then a child should not be on his/her own, etc etc, it just got ridiculous.

iptba · 19-10-2012 2:58pm

Not a particularly exciting example perhaps but recently a neighbour's kid was dropping something in. Sometimes I have played with him before either throwing a ball around or a board game while his grandmother and the woman of the house talk. However, this time he was just dropping something in on his own. Spontaneously I asked did he want a game of something (I wanted a break from work); I quickly regretted it thinking how it might seem and until he was gone, felt nervous that the two of us were alone together.
ETA: I'm remembering now that I nearly offered him a biscuit, as I would to other guests, and then quickly realised that it would be much safer not to.

Max Power · 19-10-2012 3:02pm

Interesting thread. I'm only 25 but I remember a couple of years ago when I started coaching my local GAA's U12 team my mother said to me, never ever let yourself be alone with a child, you just don't know what he/she is going to say. We live in a small town and it doesn't take much for the local biddy's to start talking.

I live next door to a 10 year old who is constantly asking me to go out and kick around the ball with him, asking if he can come for a drive if I'm heading out in the car or if I'm out doing some work on the car he will always come over looking to help. He is a lovely lad and it kills me every time to reject him.

It's the way of the world I suppose and it's pretty damn sad!

Dravokivich · 19-10-2012 3:03pm

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't need to. I have a husband who has worked with kids, a single brother in law who works with kids and male friends who babysit my children and who are always around other children. Not one of them has ever been accused of anything untoward with a child. There have been no raised eyebrows, no nasty comments or questions raised. You can choose to believe that the world is out to paint you that way but the reality is most people are not so quick to judge.

The thing you need to recognise though, is you are forming this idea of your peers based on your knowledge of your peers, where as TC and the others above are recognising that they are strangers in the instances they've portrayed.

iptba wrote: »

It doesn't look like it was a myth - he had bad experiences:

It's the responses he referred to that need to change.

He made reference to 1 instance where there was a misunderstanding. He was not in anyway a threat in that incident, but someone else took him up to be. The entire issue/expectation that unknown men are by default a threat to kids is a complete fabrication and he recognises this himself. It was this I referred to as a "myth." And why I used that particular turn of phrase? He is negatively enforcing the idea by going out and telling everyone he knows to keep away from ever being in a similar situation. He himself is promoting the issue, by telling people to avoid it.

iptba · 19-10-2012 3:08pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

He made reference to 1 instance where there was a misunderstanding.

He said:

several appalling experiences

Dravokivich wrote: »

He was not in anyway a threat in that incident, but someone else took him up to be. The entire issue/expectation that unknown men are by default a threat to kids is a complete fabrication and he recognises this himself. It was this I referred to as a "myth."

He didn't post anything to say that he thinks there is a huge problem with men interfering with children and that everyone should be suspicious of any men alone with children so I don't seem why he is being accused of reinforcing it.

Dravokivich wrote: »

He is negatively enforcing the idea by going out and telling everyone he knows to keep away from ever being in a similar situation. He himself is promoting the issue, by telling people to avoid it.

That may be true. And if you want to criticise him for that, fair enough. But that's not the same as the myth you mentioned - you conflated the two issues.

Dravokivich · 19-10-2012 3:17pm

iptba wrote: »

He said:

He didn't post anything to say that he thinks there is a huge problem with men interfering with children and that everyone should be suspicious of any men alone with children so I don't seem why he is being accused of reinforcing it.

I'm not looking to drag this out to any more than what was said, or press Piliger into something either, my comment was based primarily on the following quote:

I advise any man to stay well away from any voluntary roles unless the current situation changes.

...which he expanded on, but the entire part I kept in quote is related to that first line.

He is calling for men not to get involved because there is an idea (MYTH) which carries an expectation that bad things will happen. He is in a way reinforcing that idea. Telling men to avoid contact does not show that men are safe to be in contact.

iptba · 19-10-2012 3:22pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

I advise any man to stay well away from any voluntary roles unless the current situation changes.

He is calling for men not to get involved because there is an idea (MYTH) which carries an expectation that bad things will happen. He is in a way reinforcing that idea. Telling men to avoid contact does not show that men are safe to be in contact.

To me there are two issues:

(i) Is it safe for children to be left alone/be in contact with a man/men? What are the risks and level of risks.

(ii) Is it safe for men to be left alone/be in contact with one or more children? What are the risks and level of risks for the men in terms of false accusations.

His point referred to (ii) on which he had bad experiences.

Aiel · 19-10-2012 3:25pm

Its very hard and frustrating for teachers now especially.I work in a bookshop near to a local secondary school.Teachers are now not allowed to be alone with a child in a room(if the door is closed).There basically has to be another person there or within ear shot of the teacher and child.The problem is that a child is far less likely to "open up" to a teacher if there is another person there aswell.A case in point being that one particular kid who is 16 has a few problems(nothing major,normal teenage stresses) and has needed someone to chat to.The teacher cant always get someone else to be there and so cant chat to the child.I know this kid and he comes into my bookshop and started telling me some of his problems.Because its a shop and so technically a retail store i can chat to him because he is a customer.At 5pm though i make sure hes well out the door before i close the shop and turn off the lights etc.The teacher has commented to me that its so good that im there to chat with this teenager as he knows he needs someone.Ive been able to tell the teacher and his mum what hes been saying but ideally the teacher who knows this kid well should be allowed to chat with the child in comfort(half the time its just to be an ear to listen to).I know the teacher is frustrated by the current situation.

Dravokivich · 19-10-2012 3:31pm

iptba wrote: »

To me there are two issues:

(i) Is it safe for children to be left alone/be in contact with a man/men? What are the risks and level of risks.

(ii) Is it safe for men to be left alone/be in contact with one or more children? What are the risks and level of risks for the men in terms of false accusations.

His point referred to (ii) on which he had bad experiences.

Those are both the same thing to me. It makes no difference how many children or men there are.

He has not mentioned what exactly those bad experiences where. But my understanding is they were all people latching onto the stereotype that a man around a child is a bad thing. Which I'm sure we all agree is a myth.Him telling men not to be around children does not dispell this myth, as it is literally saying, we can't show we are able to be around children.

That's all the comment meant.

The Corinthian · 19-10-2012 3:36pm

eviltwin wrote: »

What policies, what companies? Its illegal to discriminate on the basis of gender. If you have proof its happening I suggest you contact the relevant authorities.

Why don't you read some of the links I already posted?

Airlines with this policy include (after a quick Google):

British Airways
Virgin Australia
Quantas

It should be noted, while it is reported that BA has updated it's policy, it's not exactly done so. All they've done is change policy so that unaccompanied minors have to sit in minors seating, rather than any adult. If this seating area is insufficient to accommodate all unaccompanied minors travelling, the old policy would apply.

Now are you seriously going to tell me that with this kind of discrimination being official policy on major airlines that it's all extreme examples and men are imagining it?

who_me · 19-10-2012 3:41pm

I had a 'funny' situation recently, when some of my Spanish flatmate's family (her sister, brother-in-law and their 2 year old daughter) came to stay in my apartment for a short visit.

One day when they were leaving the flat they said for her (the daughter) to kiss me goodbye. I expected a peck on the cheek Spanish-style but she gave me a peck on the lips. I immediately got defensive ("I didn't mean that... I thought she...") but I looked at the parents and they were just smiling saying it was sooo cute.

There certainly seems to be a different in attitudes across countries. Either "in reality", or in the minds of us men!

The Corinthian · 19-10-2012 3:48pm

who_me wrote: »

There certainly seems to be a different in attitudes across countries.

The paranoia surrounding paedophilia, and by extension any man, is largely an Anglophone thing, although you will come across it elsewhere.

Bare in mind though that many countries, kissing as a greeting is far more common, even between men - I can't remember the number of times my father and I got funny looks, in Dublin, over the years when greeting with a typical Italian embrace and kiss on both cheeks. So that too is a factor.

iptba · 19-10-2012 3:50pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

Those are both the same thing to me.

To me, they are different. If a man (such as myself) am in a situation where I am not going to harm a child, what I'm concerned about is what is the risk to me in this situation in terms of false accusations. Will I get involved or will I stay away? What is the level of risk to me. If there are never false accusations, then it would be silly not to get involved if you think you can help a child in some way. But there are false accusations, as Piliger highlighted from his own experience.

In my mind, you can criticise Piliger for scaring men away from doing things and this is not good for society. But he wasn't the person making the false accusations or heightening the fear that all men are potential paedophiles.

bnt · 19-10-2012 3:51pm

I had a bit of a scare in London about 15 years ago. I was halfway across the road in Muswell Hill when this kid of about 8 stopped next to me, started crying, and grabbed my hand. He had gotten separated from his dad at one of the shops, had ran outside, found he was lost, and latched on to the nearest adult, which was me.

So I was watching out for any police or busybodies who might see us and raise an alarm. Luckily the centre of Muswell Hill is quite small, and I could tell the direction from which the kid had come, so it took only a few minutes to head back in that direction, and he soon spotted his dad. Ungrateful little so-and-so ran off without so much as a thank you. :cool:

blueflag1 · 19-10-2012 3:57pm

I was jogging in a park near my house and sat down on a bench to take a stone out of my shoe. There was an (I'm guessing) U10's football match on opposite the bench. I am a massive football fan and just out of sheer curiosity, to what level these lads are playing at, sat there and watched about 2 minutes of it before I caught eyes with a man absolutely staring me out of it on the side line. All of a sudden I was very aware that I was not welcome to watch this match and briskly jogged on.

Dravokivich · 19-10-2012 4:01pm

iptba wrote: »

To me, they are different. If a man (such as myself) am in a situation where I am not going to harm a child, what I'm concerned about is what is the risk to me in this situation in terms of false accusations. Will I get involved or will I stay away? What is the level of risk to me. If there are never false accusations, then it would be silly not to get involved if you think you can help a child in some way. But there are false accusations, as Piliger highlighted from his own experience.

In my mind, you can criticise Piliger for scaring men away from doing things and this is not good for society. But he wasn't the person making the false accusations or heightening the fear that all men are potential paedophiles.

I still can't see how you consider there to be 2 issues.

All I see is you considering the risk and false accusation of anything wrong happening when you are left with a child. Which is what happened to Piliger, he was falsely accused. You will never put right that wrong by avoiding the situation that led to it and telling others not to either.

I never said he was making the accusations, but telling men not to get involved gives the accusations merit. It gives this myth that men can't be around children more visibility by men telling men not to be around children.

I honestly have nothing more to say on that comment other than this because that's all it referred to.

iptba · 19-10-2012 4:22pm

I'm not sure what I can say either, Dravokivich. I see the (i) fear of men, and (ii) men fearing how they might be treated, as not necessarily the same thing.

Perhaps not the best example but something that comes to mind is (i) the fear that people were witches (which lead to some women, and men as I recall, being killed) and then (ii) people being afraid that they might be accused of being a witch.

iptba · 19-10-2012 4:23pm

Here's an example of what can happen.

http://jonathanturley.org/2012/06/06/not-so-noble-bookstore-chain-apologizes-for-kicking-out-elderly-man-from-childrens-book-section-as-suspected-pedophile/

Not So Noble: Bookstore Chain Apologizes For Kicking Out Elderly Man From Children’s Book Section As Suspected Pedophile
Published 1, June 6, 2012

The bookstore chain Barnes and Noble issued a rather belated apology to Dr. Omar Amin, 73, of Scottsdale, after he was thrown out of a children’s book section in Arizona. He was told that men are not allowed to be in the children’s section unless they are accompanied by a minor. That’s right. He was told that as a man he was viewed as a danger if reading alone in the section.

Amin was shopping for books for his grandchildren at his neighborhood bookstore when a female customer complained that a man was seen reading alone in the section. Barnes & Noble employee Todd Voris reported explained that men are viewed as potential child abusers if they are alone in the section.

What is fascinating is that the company responded to the incident by publicly supporting the decision to throw Amin out — insisting that Voris “acted appropriately.” What followed was days of criticism of the company.

Finally, yesterday the company did a complete 180 turn and denounced the decision as wrong and unacceptable. Now, Barnes & Noble vice president Mark Bottini maintains that “t is not our policy to ask customers to leave any section of our stores without justification. We value Dr. Amin as a customer and look forward to welcoming him in any of our stores.”

Once again, I am amazed by the ineptitude of major corporations in such controversies. The company had to have deliberated on the first response and decision to embrace the policy. Then it abandoned that position and denounced the very act that it previously called appropriate.

There is something perverse in our society that the image of an elderly man reading in a children’s section is enough to send a woman to the front desk to report a suspected child molester.

Dravokivich · 19-10-2012 4:39pm

iptba wrote: »

I'm not sure what I can say either, Dravokivich. I see the (i) fear of men, and (ii) men fearing how they might be treated, as not necessarily the same thing.

Perhaps not the best example but something that comes to mind is (i) the fear that people were witches (which lead to some women, and men as I recall, being killed) and then (ii) people being afraid that they might be accused of being a witch.

Ok, now I see along the lines of where you are coming from. But from how I see it, the second doesn't exist without the first.

Someone not doing something, for fear of being accused of something else that there was no intention of, does not stop the idea that there is a fear of being falsely accused of it. Someone telling others to act similarly promotes the fear and risk of false accusation.

The only way to break that fear is to encourage men to interact with children (when relevant) and show men can be involved with children in a safe manner.

Edit:
After the middle bit I meant to say; The fear and what the item that the fear is of are so close to each other, in that they are created from each other that they are in affect the same thing.

Piliger · 19-10-2012 4:58pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

Unfortunately, all you are doing is reinforcing the myth as opposed to dispelling it.

I disagree. I am not reinforcing anything. I am advising men to avoid situations where they expose themselves to the risk of unfounded, unjustifiable accusations. And the truth of the matter is that accusation is enough when it comes to this issue. Facts and evidence and truth matter for nothing.

Piliger · 19-10-2012 5:02pm

eviltwin wrote: »

I don't need to. I have a husband who has worked with kids, a single brother in law who works with kids and male friends who babysit my children and who are always around other children. Not one of them has ever been accused of anything untoward with a child. There have been no raised eyebrows, no nasty comments or questions raised. You can choose to believe that the world is out to paint you that way but the reality is most people are not so quick to judge.

Well I'm afraid you do need to. Relying on your tiny sample of your husband, brother in law and what your male friends are prepared to tell you is not much basis for your assessment.

Try living as a man and having other men confide in you the way they won't in a woman.

Piliger · 19-10-2012 5:10pm

Aiel wrote: »

Its very hard and frustrating for teachers now especially.I work in a bookshop near to a local secondary school.Teachers are now not allowed to be alone with a child in a room(if the door is closed).There basically has to be another person there or within ear shot of the teacher and child.The problem is that a child is far less likely to "open up" to a teacher if there is another person there aswell.A case in point being that one particular kid who is 16 has a few problems(nothing major,normal teenage stresses) and has needed someone to chat to.The teacher cant always get someone else to be there and so cant chat to the child.I know this kid and he comes into my bookshop and started telling me some of his problems.Because its a shop and so technically a retail store i can chat to him because he is a customer.At 5pm though i make sure hes well out the door before i close the shop and turn off the lights etc.The teacher has commented to me that its so good that im there to chat with this teenager as he knows he needs someone.Ive been able to tell the teacher and his mum what hes been saying but ideally the teacher who knows this kid well should be allowed to chat with the child in comfort(half the time its just to be an ear to listen to).I know the teacher is frustrated by the current situation.

When I took part in an IT development committee in my local primary school only a couple of years back (ca 2006) this policy was discussed, with the Head present. He told us that this policy of teachers being alone was driven 99% by the intention of MEN not being left alone but that if this were implemented it would be illegal so it was extended to ALL teachers as a camouflage. He was a senior member of a Gov policy committee and close to the decision makers. This demonstrates what is really going on when it comes to how Men are perceived and are blackened by the feminist driven groups that have such influence at these levels.

Piliger · 19-10-2012 5:20pm

FionnMcCool87 wrote: »

Interesting thread. I'm only 25 but I remember a couple of years ago when I started coaching my local GAA's U12 team my mother said to me, never ever let yourself be alone with a child, you just don't know what he/she is going to say. We live in a small town and it doesn't take much for the local biddy's to start talking.

I live next door to a 10 year old who is constantly asking me to go out and kick around the ball with him, asking if he can come for a drive if I'm heading out in the car or if I'm out doing some work on the car he will always come over looking to help. He is a lovely lad and it kills me every time to reject him.

It's the way of the world I suppose and it's pretty damn sad!

I deeply sympathise. It is an appalling situation we are now in and I know exactly how you feel.

When my son was about 18 months and I was a home carer for him we lived in a small well developed cul de sac development. everyone knew everyone in a wonderful way.

Several of the local small children used to come and visit my son in an afternoon from time to time, because he was such a cute fella. Some girls and some boys ... all about 4 or 5 I guess. They used to play games with him and have little pretend parties with him.
One little girl was very friendly and affectionate and would always kiss me goodbye with a hug. I knew her parents.

One day I was arriving home to my house in my car and she was walking by ... her mother was in her car waiting for her to hop in to go shopping presumably. On her way past the car she stopped at my open window and said a big hi (my son was in the car with me) and gave me a hug. She then went to her mother's car.

That girl never returned to my house again, and two months later I heard from another neighbour that she had labelled me as 'dodgy' and banned her child from returning. Thank goodness I had wonderful neighbours. Over the following years several told me of this story and assured me they didn't pay any attention to this lady who moved out of the estate four months after this incident (...).
Had I not had such great neighbours I hesitate what might have happened. I felt physically sick when this happened and I have lost count of experiences my friends and colleagues have recounted to me over the years ( I am 50+, many here are younger and are only starting to experience these things)

The Corinthian · 19-10-2012 5:34pm

Piliger wrote: »

That girl never returned to my house again, and two months later I heard from another neighbour that she had labelled me as 'dodgy' and banned her child from returning. Thank goodness I had wonderful neighbours. Over the following years several told me of this story and assured me they didn't pay any attention to this lady who moved out of the estate four months after this incident (...).

As I mentioned, I saw this from the other side of the fence - dinner party, one of the male guests (partner of an invited friend) played with the kids for a while before dinner, and eventually they were packed off to bed as we sat down to eat. A few days later, the hostess and mother of the children in question, commented how he had displayed an 'unnatural interest' in the children. Once I got over the shock and nausea of her comment I verbally ripped her a new one.

A common defence of such prejudice is the 'I make no apologies for protecting my child'. I'm sorry, but if that were the case, schools in the US would still be segregated on the basis of race - there's no justification for bigotry.

iptba · 19-10-2012 5:37pm

The Corinthian wrote: »

As I mentioned, I saw this from the other side of the fence - dinner party, one of the male guests (partner of an invited friend) played with the kids for a while before dinner, and eventually they were packed off to bed as we sat down to eat. A few days later, the hostess and mother of the children in question, commented how he had displayed an 'unnatural interest' in the children. Once I got over the shock and nausea of her comment I verbally ripped her a new one.

A common defence of such prejudice is the 'I make no apologies for protecting my child'. I'm sorry, but if that were the case, schools in the US would still be segregated on the basis of race - there's no justification for bigotry.

Also, as well as false accusations against an individual male, such behaviour can have the knock-on effect of discouraging men from getting involved with helping children in society. A lot of the discussion only focuses on one side of the equation (i.e. protecting children) without acknowledging this can have knock on consequences.

It's similar to the way parents can be scared to let their children out to play, which can certainly protect them in some ways, but also lead to some other problems (e.g. they're more likely to be less active and overweight). There needs to be a balance.

LegacyUser · 19-10-2012 6:04pm

A lot of people may be loathe to admit it or say that men are just being paranoid but I a lot of men are withdrawing from any contact with kids. I always think twice about being around children out of fear that people might think i am up to something. I knew an elderly man that wouldn't go in to the children's section of the library to get a book for his grandchild as he said he was afraid that somebody might think he was up to something. That broke my heart, to think that society has came to this. It would be easy to say that men are making a mountain out of a molehill but why are so many of us doing this? We can't all be dismissed as paranoid.

ian87 · 19-10-2012 7:23pm

I'm a primary school teacher teaching 1st an 2nd class and the thought of how easy an accusation can be leveled is always in the back of my head. It's a very real threat..

I've worked in a pub since 09 in my spare time and decided to give it up after this summer due to smart comments from other men about my main job and how male teachers must be paedos.

The last time it happened a particularly obnoxious little bollix announced to all who would listen that I was a paedo, why else would I work as a primary teacher. Even his own friends walked away from him in disgust. A threat of legal action against him brought a very swift and grovelling apology. My solicitor said I had a 100% chance of winning if I sued for slander as he said it in a public place with many witnesses around. First time I've ever seen a grown man nearly wet myself when I threatened the solicitors letter as the same guy sees himself as a pillar of the community.

Piliger · 19-10-2012 8:01pm

ian87 wrote: »

I'm a primary school teacher teaching 1st an 2nd class and the thought of how easy an accusation can be leveled is always in the back of my head. It's a very real threat..

I've worked in a pub since 09 in my spare time and decided to give it up after this summer due to smart comments from other men about my main job and how male teachers must be paedos.

The last time it happened a particularly obnoxious little bollix announced to all who would listen that I was a paedo, why else would I work as a primary teacher. Even his own friends walked away from him in disgust. A threat of legal action against him brought a very swift and grovelling apology. My solicitor said I had a 100% chance of winning if I sued for slander as he said it in a public place with many witnesses around. First time I've ever seen a grown man nearly wet myself when I threatened the solicitors letter as the same guy sees himself as a pillar of the community.

Funny, yet a deeply tragic story and I sympathise with you enormously.

Someone criticised my advice to stay away from children and coaching etc because it reinforces this nonsense ... but the truth is that it has ALREADY gone way way way too far for that. It has gone too far to fight from within, especially when guilt is assumed and there is no chance of justice. Men need to take care of themselves and STAY AWAY. We must fight the fight in other ways somehow and discussing it here is one way to start making more men aware of these issues.

Your story is nothing new to me. I have heard this in discussions among my son's mates when they talk about teaching careers.

We have gone to an appalling situation now where teaching is becoming even more and more female dominated than ever before, especially at primary level. Boys are now being taught predominantly by women, with no exposure to men - causing them to receive a totally biased and gender unbalanced education. And it is only going to get worse.

Can anyone ever imagine a situation EVER being allowed to develop where girls are taught 90% by men ????? The outrage would be vast !

This may not be directly a 'rights' issue, but it is deeply enmeshed in the whole culture that is driving men's rights down.

Galvasean · 19-10-2012 8:08pm

ian87 wrote: »

I've worked in a pub since 09 in my spare time and decided to give it up after this summer due to smart comments from other men about my main job and how male teachers must be paedos.

The last time it happened a particularly obnoxious little bollix announced to all who would listen that I was a paedo, why else would I work as a primary teacher.

That attitude is quite common. When I was in secondary school two of my best friends wanted to go on to do primary school teaching. One was male, the other female. Sure enough the guy was constantly being called a paedo (both behind his back and to his face). No one ever said such things to/about the girl. Fast forward to now and she is a primary school teacher while my male friend has changed careers.
I'd say a lot of men are put off following such career paths due to this.

Sleepy · 19-10-2012 9:43pm

An old classmate of mine left a permanent position as a teacher in a girls secondary school a few years ago for quite a similar reason... As so many of the senior cycle girls could doll themselves up to the stage they were barely recognisable and get into nightclubs. As a young teacher, and single at the time, he was regularly accosted by these girls when they saw him in clubs and felt it was only a matter of time before he didn't recognise one after a few pints too many and destroyed his life...

Of all the primary school teachers I'd know, I can only think of two of them that are male. It's fast becoming an entirely female profession.

People play the lotto despite insane odds because the results are life-changing. The same is true here: the risk of a false accusation is low, but the consequences are life-destroying.

Is the fear of Paedophilia preventing positive male role models?

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