Advertisement
If you have a new account but are having problems posting or verifying your account, please email us on hello@boards.ie for help. Thanks :)
Hello all! Please ensure that you are posting a new thread or question in the appropriate forum. The Feedback forum is overwhelmed with questions that are having to be moved elsewhere. If you need help to verify your account contact hello@boards.ie
Is the fear of Paedophilia preventing positive male role models?
Options
Comments
-
I had a 'funny' situation recently, when some of my Spanish flatmate's family (her sister, brother-in-law and their 2 year old daughter) came to stay in my apartment for a short visit.
One day when they were leaving the flat they said for her (the daughter) to kiss me goodbye. I expected a peck on the cheek Spanish-style but she gave me a peck on the lips. I immediately got defensive ("I didn't mean that... I thought she...") but I looked at the parents and they were just smiling saying it was sooo cute.
There certainly seems to be a different in attitudes across countries. Either "in reality", or in the minds of us men!0 -
The paranoia surrounding paedophilia, and by extension any man, is largely an Anglophone thing, although you will come across it elsewhere.There certainly seems to be a different in attitudes across countries.
Bare in mind though that many countries, kissing as a greeting is far more common, even between men - I can't remember the number of times my father and I got funny looks, in Dublin, over the years when greeting with a typical Italian embrace and kiss on both cheeks. So that too is a factor.0 -
To me, they are different. If a man (such as myself) am in a situation where I am not going to harm a child, what I'm concerned about is what is the risk to me in this situation in terms of false accusations. Will I get involved or will I stay away? What is the level of risk to me. If there are never false accusations, then it would be silly not to get involved if you think you can help a child in some way. But there are false accusations, as Piliger highlighted from his own experience.Dravokivich wrote: »Those are both the same thing to me.
In my mind, you can criticise Piliger for scaring men away from doing things and this is not good for society. But he wasn't the person making the false accusations or heightening the fear that all men are potential paedophiles.0 -
I had a bit of a scare in London about 15 years ago. I was halfway across the road in Muswell Hill when this kid of about 8 stopped next to me, started crying, and grabbed my hand. He had gotten separated from his dad at one of the shops, had ran outside, found he was lost, and latched on to the nearest adult, which was me.
So I was watching out for any police or busybodies who might see us and raise an alarm. Luckily the centre of Muswell Hill is quite small, and I could tell the direction from which the kid had come, so it took only a few minutes to head back in that direction, and he soon spotted his dad. Ungrateful little so-and-so ran off without so much as a thank you. :cool:From out there on the moon, international politics look so petty. You want to grab a politician by the scruff of the neck and drag him a quarter of a million miles out and say, ‘Look at that, you son of a bitch’.
— Edgar Mitchell, Apollo 14 Astronaut
0 -
I was jogging in a park near my house and sat down on a bench to take a stone out of my shoe. There was an (I'm guessing) U10's football match on opposite the bench. I am a massive football fan and just out of sheer curiosity, to what level these lads are playing at, sat there and watched about 2 minutes of it before I caught eyes with a man absolutely staring me out of it on the side line. All of a sudden I was very aware that I was not welcome to watch this match and briskly jogged on.0
-
Advertisement
-
Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭
Join Date:Posts: 22058
To me, they are different. If a man (such as myself) am in a situation where I am not going to harm a child, what I'm concerned about is what is the risk to me in this situation in terms of false accusations. Will I get involved or will I stay away? What is the level of risk to me. If there are never false accusations, then it would be silly not to get involved if you think you can help a child in some way. But there are false accusations, as Piliger highlighted from his own experience.
In my mind, you can criticise Piliger for scaring men away from doing things and this is not good for society. But he wasn't the person making the false accusations or heightening the fear that all men are potential paedophiles.
I still can't see how you consider there to be 2 issues.
All I see is you considering the risk and false accusation of anything wrong happening when you are left with a child. Which is what happened to Piliger, he was falsely accused. You will never put right that wrong by avoiding the situation that led to it and telling others not to either.
I never said he was making the accusations, but telling men not to get involved gives the accusations merit. It gives this myth that men can't be around children more visibility by men telling men not to be around children.
I honestly have nothing more to say on that comment other than this because that's all it referred to.0 -
I'm not sure what I can say either, Dravokivich. I see the (i) fear of men, and (ii) men fearing how they might be treated, as not necessarily the same thing.
Perhaps not the best example but something that comes to mind is (i) the fear that people were witches (which lead to some women, and men as I recall, being killed) and then (ii) people being afraid that they might be accused of being a witch.0 -
Here's an example of what can happen.
http://jonathanturley.org/2012/06/06/not-so-noble-bookstore-chain-apologizes-for-kicking-out-elderly-man-from-childrens-book-section-as-suspected-pedophile/Not So Noble: Bookstore Chain Apologizes For Kicking Out Elderly Man From Children’s Book Section As Suspected Pedophile
Published 1, June 6, 2012
The bookstore chain Barnes and Noble issued a rather belated apology to Dr. Omar Amin, 73, of Scottsdale, after he was thrown out of a children’s book section in Arizona. He was told that men are not allowed to be in the children’s section unless they are accompanied by a minor. That’s right. He was told that as a man he was viewed as a danger if reading alone in the section.
Amin was shopping for books for his grandchildren at his neighborhood bookstore when a female customer complained that a man was seen reading alone in the section. Barnes & Noble employee Todd Voris reported explained that men are viewed as potential child abusers if they are alone in the section.
What is fascinating is that the company responded to the incident by publicly supporting the decision to throw Amin out — insisting that Voris “acted appropriately.” What followed was days of criticism of the company.
Finally, yesterday the company did a complete 180 turn and denounced the decision as wrong and unacceptable. Now, Barnes & Noble vice president Mark Bottini maintains that “t is not our policy to ask customers to leave any section of our stores without justification. We value Dr. Amin as a customer and look forward to welcoming him in any of our stores.”
Once again, I am amazed by the ineptitude of major corporations in such controversies. The company had to have deliberated on the first response and decision to embrace the policy. Then it abandoned that position and denounced the very act that it previously called appropriate.
There is something perverse in our society that the image of an elderly man reading in a children’s section is enough to send a woman to the front desk to report a suspected child molester.0 -
Moderators, Category Moderators, Music Moderators, Politics Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 22,360 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 22058
I'm not sure what I can say either, Dravokivich. I see the (i) fear of men, and (ii) men fearing how they might be treated, as not necessarily the same thing.
Perhaps not the best example but something that comes to mind is (i) the fear that people were witches (which lead to some women, and men as I recall, being killed) and then (ii) people being afraid that they might be accused of being a witch.
Ok, now I see along the lines of where you are coming from. But from how I see it, the second doesn't exist without the first.
Someone not doing something, for fear of being accused of something else that there was no intention of, does not stop the idea that there is a fear of being falsely accused of it. Someone telling others to act similarly promotes the fear and risk of false accusation.
The only way to break that fear is to encourage men to interact with children (when relevant) and show men can be involved with children in a safe manner.
Edit:
After the middle bit I meant to say; The fear and what the item that the fear is of are so close to each other, in that they are created from each other that they are in affect the same thing.0 -
Dravokivich wrote: »Unfortunately, all you are doing is reinforcing the myth as opposed to dispelling it.
I disagree. I am not reinforcing anything. I am advising men to avoid situations where they expose themselves to the risk of unfounded, unjustifiable accusations. And the truth of the matter is that accusation is enough when it comes to this issue. Facts and evidence and truth matter for nothing.0 -
Advertisement
-
I don't need to. I have a husband who has worked with kids, a single brother in law who works with kids and male friends who babysit my children and who are always around other children. Not one of them has ever been accused of anything untoward with a child. There have been no raised eyebrows, no nasty comments or questions raised. You can choose to believe that the world is out to paint you that way but the reality is most people are not so quick to judge.
Well I'm afraid you do need to. Relying on your tiny sample of your husband, brother in law and what your male friends are prepared to tell you is not much basis for your assessment.
Try living as a man and having other men confide in you the way they won't in a woman.0 -
Its very hard and frustrating for teachers now especially.I work in a bookshop near to a local secondary school.Teachers are now not allowed to be alone with a child in a room(if the door is closed).There basically has to be another person there or within ear shot of the teacher and child.The problem is that a child is far less likely to "open up" to a teacher if there is another person there aswell.A case in point being that one particular kid who is 16 has a few problems(nothing major,normal teenage stresses) and has needed someone to chat to.The teacher cant always get someone else to be there and so cant chat to the child.I know this kid and he comes into my bookshop and started telling me some of his problems.Because its a shop and so technically a retail store i can chat to him because he is a customer.At 5pm though i make sure hes well out the door before i close the shop and turn off the lights etc.The teacher has commented to me that its so good that im there to chat with this teenager as he knows he needs someone.Ive been able to tell the teacher and his mum what hes been saying but ideally the teacher who knows this kid well should be allowed to chat with the child in comfort(half the time its just to be an ear to listen to).I know the teacher is frustrated by the current situation.
When I took part in an IT development committee in my local primary school only a couple of years back (ca 2006) this policy was discussed, with the Head present. He told us that this policy of teachers being alone was driven 99% by the intention of MEN not being left alone but that if this were implemented it would be illegal so it was extended to ALL teachers as a camouflage. He was a senior member of a Gov policy committee and close to the decision makers. This demonstrates what is really going on when it comes to how Men are perceived and are blackened by the feminist driven groups that have such influence at these levels.0 -
FionnMcCool87 wrote: »Interesting thread. I'm only 25 but I remember a couple of years ago when I started coaching my local GAA's U12 team my mother said to me, never ever let yourself be alone with a child, you just don't know what he/she is going to say. We live in a small town and it doesn't take much for the local biddy's to start talking.
I live next door to a 10 year old who is constantly asking me to go out and kick around the ball with him, asking if he can come for a drive if I'm heading out in the car or if I'm out doing some work on the car he will always come over looking to help. He is a lovely lad and it kills me every time to reject him.
It's the way of the world I suppose and it's pretty damn sad!
I deeply sympathise. It is an appalling situation we are now in and I know exactly how you feel.
When my son was about 18 months and I was a home carer for him we lived in a small well developed cul de sac development. everyone knew everyone in a wonderful way.
Several of the local small children used to come and visit my son in an afternoon from time to time, because he was such a cute fella. Some girls and some boys ... all about 4 or 5 I guess. They used to play games with him and have little pretend parties with him.
One little girl was very friendly and affectionate and would always kiss me goodbye with a hug. I knew her parents.
One day I was arriving home to my house in my car and she was walking by ... her mother was in her car waiting for her to hop in to go shopping presumably. On her way past the car she stopped at my open window and said a big hi (my son was in the car with me) and gave me a hug. She then went to her mother's car.
That girl never returned to my house again, and two months later I heard from another neighbour that she had labelled me as 'dodgy' and banned her child from returning. Thank goodness I had wonderful neighbours. Over the following years several told me of this story and assured me they didn't pay any attention to this lady who moved out of the estate four months after this incident (...).
Had I not had such great neighbours I hesitate what might have happened. I felt physically sick when this happened and I have lost count of experiences my friends and colleagues have recounted to me over the years ( I am 50+, many here are younger and are only starting to experience these things)0 -
As I mentioned, I saw this from the other side of the fence - dinner party, one of the male guests (partner of an invited friend) played with the kids for a while before dinner, and eventually they were packed off to bed as we sat down to eat. A few days later, the hostess and mother of the children in question, commented how he had displayed an 'unnatural interest' in the children. Once I got over the shock and nausea of her comment I verbally ripped her a new one.That girl never returned to my house again, and two months later I heard from another neighbour that she had labelled me as 'dodgy' and banned her child from returning. Thank goodness I had wonderful neighbours. Over the following years several told me of this story and assured me they didn't pay any attention to this lady who moved out of the estate four months after this incident (...).
A common defence of such prejudice is the 'I make no apologies for protecting my child'. I'm sorry, but if that were the case, schools in the US would still be segregated on the basis of race - there's no justification for bigotry.0 -
Also, as well as false accusations against an individual male, such behaviour can have the knock-on effect of discouraging men from getting involved with helping children in society. A lot of the discussion only focuses on one side of the equation (i.e. protecting children) without acknowledging this can have knock on consequences.The Corinthian wrote: »As I mentioned, I saw this from the other side of the fence - dinner party, one of the male guests (partner of an invited friend) played with the kids for a while before dinner, and eventually they were packed off to bed as we sat down to eat. A few days later, the hostess and mother of the children in question, commented how he had displayed an 'unnatural interest' in the children. Once I got over the shock and nausea of her comment I verbally ripped her a new one.
A common defence of such prejudice is the 'I make no apologies for protecting my child'. I'm sorry, but if that were the case, schools in the US would still be segregated on the basis of race - there's no justification for bigotry.
It's similar to the way parents can be scared to let their children out to play, which can certainly protect them in some ways, but also lead to some other problems (e.g. they're more likely to be less active and overweight). There needs to be a balance.0 -
A lot of people may be loathe to admit it or say that men are just being paranoid but I a lot of men are withdrawing from any contact with kids. I always think twice about being around children out of fear that people might think i am up to something. I knew an elderly man that wouldn't go in to the children's section of the library to get a book for his grandchild as he said he was afraid that somebody might think he was up to something. That broke my heart, to think that society has came to this. It would be easy to say that men are making a mountain out of a molehill but why are so many of us doing this? We can't all be dismissed as paranoid.0
-
I'm a primary school teacher teaching 1st an 2nd class and the thought of how easy an accusation can be leveled is always in the back of my head. It's a very real threat..
I've worked in a pub since 09 in my spare time and decided to give it up after this summer due to smart comments from other men about my main job and how male teachers must be paedos.
The last time it happened a particularly obnoxious little bollix announced to all who would listen that I was a paedo, why else would I work as a primary teacher. Even his own friends walked away from him in disgust. A threat of legal action against him brought a very swift and grovelling apology. My solicitor said I had a 100% chance of winning if I sued for slander as he said it in a public place with many witnesses around. First time I've ever seen a grown man nearly wet myself when I threatened the solicitors letter as the same guy sees himself as a pillar of the community.0 -
I'm a primary school teacher teaching 1st an 2nd class and the thought of how easy an accusation can be leveled is always in the back of my head. It's a very real threat..
I've worked in a pub since 09 in my spare time and decided to give it up after this summer due to smart comments from other men about my main job and how male teachers must be paedos.
The last time it happened a particularly obnoxious little bollix announced to all who would listen that I was a paedo, why else would I work as a primary teacher. Even his own friends walked away from him in disgust. A threat of legal action against him brought a very swift and grovelling apology. My solicitor said I had a 100% chance of winning if I sued for slander as he said it in a public place with many witnesses around. First time I've ever seen a grown man nearly wet myself when I threatened the solicitors letter as the same guy sees himself as a pillar of the community.
Funny, yet a deeply tragic story and I sympathise with you enormously.
Someone criticised my advice to stay away from children and coaching etc because it reinforces this nonsense ... but the truth is that it has ALREADY gone way way way too far for that. It has gone too far to fight from within, especially when guilt is assumed and there is no chance of justice. Men need to take care of themselves and STAY AWAY. We must fight the fight in other ways somehow and discussing it here is one way to start making more men aware of these issues.
Your story is nothing new to me. I have heard this in discussions among my son's mates when they talk about teaching careers.
We have gone to an appalling situation now where teaching is becoming even more and more female dominated than ever before, especially at primary level. Boys are now being taught predominantly by women, with no exposure to men - causing them to receive a totally biased and gender unbalanced education. And it is only going to get worse.
Can anyone ever imagine a situation EVER being allowed to develop where girls are taught 90% by men ????? The outrage would be vast !
This may not be directly a 'rights' issue, but it is deeply enmeshed in the whole culture that is driving men's rights down.0 -
I've worked in a pub since 09 in my spare time and decided to give it up after this summer due to smart comments from other men about my main job and how male teachers must be paedos.
The last time it happened a particularly obnoxious little bollix announced to all who would listen that I was a paedo, why else would I work as a primary teacher.
That attitude is quite common. When I was in secondary school two of my best friends wanted to go on to do primary school teaching. One was male, the other female. Sure enough the guy was constantly being called a paedo (both behind his back and to his face). No one ever said such things to/about the girl. Fast forward to now and she is a primary school teacher while my male friend has changed careers.
I'd say a lot of men are put off following such career paths due to this.0 -
An old classmate of mine left a permanent position as a teacher in a girls secondary school a few years ago for quite a similar reason... As so many of the senior cycle girls could doll themselves up to the stage they were barely recognisable and get into nightclubs. As a young teacher, and single at the time, he was regularly accosted by these girls when they saw him in clubs and felt it was only a matter of time before he didn't recognise one after a few pints too many and destroyed his life...
Of all the primary school teachers I'd know, I can only think of two of them that are male. It's fast becoming an entirely female profession.
People play the lotto despite insane odds because the results are life-changing. The same is true here: the risk of a false accusation is low, but the consequences are life-destroying.0 -
Advertisement
-
I'm reading this thread and finding it hard to believe all the paranoia amongst you all.
Male teachers are peados? There are three male teachers out of eight in my kids' primary school and I've never heard any parent mention anything but praise about them.
There are so many safety policies regarding what adults can't do while in the company of kids, from Garda vetting through to not being allowed into the toilet at the same time as any kids, as long as you follow the rules you, and any parents, should have nothing to worry about.0 -
No one should have anything to worry about, but like I said, the odds of an unfounded allegation being made by a paranoid parent are small but the consequences of such an allegation don't bare thinking about...0
-
No one should have anything to worry about, but like I said, the odds of an unfounded allegation being made by a paranoid parent are small but the consequences of such an allegation don't bare thinking about...
not only that but older girls are aware of how easy it is to level an accusation at a teacher and destroy his career. In secondary level you would have to be careful not just of the parents but also the students themselves in case they are particularly vindictive and hold a grudge against you0 -
Gloomtastic! wrote: »I'm reading this thread and finding it hard to believe all the paranoia amongst you all.
Male teachers are peados? There are three male teachers out of eight in my kids' primary school and I've never heard any parent mention anything but praise about them.
There are so many safety policies regarding what adults can't do while in the company of kids, from Garda vetting through to not being allowed into the toilet at the same time as any kids, as long as you follow the rules you, and any parents, should have nothing to worry about.
I have no idea what this means to say. But if you think we are all making this stuff up then you clearly have lived a fortunate life.0 -
Gloomtastic! wrote: »There are so many safety policies regarding what adults can't do while in the company of kids, from Garda vetting through to not being allowed into the toilet at the same time as any kids, as long as you follow the rules you, and any parents, should have nothing to worry about.
I work in the same secondary school I attended for 6 years as a student. Id left for 10 years before I returned to work there, and one of the changes was CCTV nearly everywhere. Well I laughed about that and naively underestimated its value.
After persistent difficulties with one continuously troublesome and all round bad egg! student I placed him on detention. Later on I happened to pass him on a staircase which had no CCTV. What followed was horrible but eye opening for me. With him near the top of the stairs and me near the bottom he shouted Sir sir Im telling on you, and he had his mobile out allegedly to call his mother. The horrible thing is that kids know the destroying power of the 'P' word more than we know and when they want to enact revenge they can really go for it.
His claims were that I was a creep, that I had touched him in a pervert way and that I had knocked him down the stairs. I reported the incident immediately to the headmaster and the next few days -sleepless restless nights included-were frigging awful with having to make statements and meet with the child's mother. Ironically I was probably helped by the least damaging part of the accusation-pushing him down a stairwell without any marks.
I was ultimately believed. However I take total objection with telling people that been Garda vetted-as I have been-and following all the rules-as I endeavour to do- means they should have nothing to worry about. Then heres a new rule. Avoid areas without CCTV, avoid using the stairway when its not busy.
The child was not suspended as he would miss some tests. And I never received so much as an apology. New school year and hes back and he scares me, Im human and I cant stop him making my skin crawl. But I feel I got off light and I should be somewhat grateful for a lesson learned.0 -
Gloomtastic! wrote: »I'm reading this thread and finding it hard to believe all the paranoia amongst you all.
Male teachers are peados? There are three male teachers out of eight in my kids' primary school and I've never heard any parent mention anything but praise about them.
There are so many safety policies regarding what adults can't do while in the company of kids, from Garda vetting through to not being allowed into the toilet at the same time as any kids, as long as you follow the rules you, and any parents, should have nothing to worry about.
It's not paranoia, I'm a single man who lives alone and and there is no way in hell I would let a situation arise where there would be a possibility of someone putting 2+2 together and coming up with 5 and having a false accusation levelled at me.
Like every right thinking person I think paedos are the scum of the earth and for men the fear of a false accusation is very real.
The whole "there is no smoke without fire" attitude does exist and someones good name can be ruined because of it.0 -
This thread is heart-breaking. This attitude is certainly prevalent today. I see it myself. Our daughter has 5 fantastic uncles, who completely dote on her, but not one of them ever look after her or any other child alone. All of them will make sure they bring their girlfriend/sister along if they are going to be alone with any children.
My husband is aware of it too, and I see it with the neighbours. When the kids in the area play on the green by our houses, there is usually one parent there, as some of the kids are quite small. When I go out, i tell whoever is about that I can stay outside for 40 mins or so... And they head back in, but when my husband does the same, they remain. No man is ever there on his own.
It is to protect the man from accusation as much as anything, but it is really not right to feel that you are an assumed attacker from the outset. I certainly don't expect every man I see to be a predator.
Media fascination with it would have you believe it is constant.
Those flight policies are totally bonkers.0 -
I don't need to. I have a husband who has worked with kids, a single brother in law who works with kids and male friends who babysit my children and who are always around other children. Not one of them has ever been accused of anything untoward with a child. There have been no raised eyebrows, no nasty comments or questions raised. You can choose to believe that the world is out to paint you that way but the reality is most people are not so quick to judge.
Isn't that the point the OP is trying to make -
One comment, true or false, from a child about any of these men you listed and their lives are ruined.0 -
Media fascination with it would have you believe it is constant.
Those flight policies are totally bonkers.
Bingo IMO.
If we heard half the stories of men doing good deeds/or even everyday deeds with their kids as we do about of stories of paedos and predators, we would be far better off.0 -
Advertisement
-
Boys and girls; the new word for today is 'naivete'.Gloomtastic! wrote: »There are so many safety policies regarding what adults can't do while in the company of kids, from Garda vetting through to not being allowed into the toilet at the same time as any kids, as long as you follow the rules you, and any parents, should have nothing to worry about.0
Advertisement