DART+ (DART Expansion)

cgcsb · 19-03-2014 11:29pm

annfield1978 wrote: »

Etenders notice relaesed today regarding transport planning and economic services to update the business case for the DART interconnector

82695 - NW5239LG - Transport Planning /Economic consultant.
Publication date: 19-03-2014
Response deadline: 03-04-2014 12:00 Irish time
Procedure: Negotiated Procedure (NON OJEU)
Description: The DART Expansion programme comprises several major railway enhancement projects, the most notable of which is the DART Underground (7.6 Km electrified railway tunnel which will run through the heart of Dublin City Centre with 5 underground and 1 surface station and connects the Northern and Kildare rail lines).In 2009, Iarnród Éireann procured the DART Expansion Business Case as part of the process of seeking a Railway Order. The business case was based on the then project appraisal guidelines, economic growth projections and version of the NTA model. Iarnród Éireann, having secured the Railway Order, now wishes to procure the services of a suitably experienced transport planning / economic consultant to update this business case to reflect the current project approval guidelines, growth projections and forecasted transportation network.
Buyer: Iarnrod Eireann-Irish Rail

a fairly strong indication that the govt intends to press ahead with the project in 2015, why else bother updating the business case.

ClovenHoof · 20-03-2014 12:32am

Looks like it is game on so.

cgcsb · 20-03-2014 4:56pm

if it gets the go ahead for 2015 capital investment, what kind of timescale are we looking at for permission, tendering and construction? Will I be DARTing it to Stephen's Green before 2020??

1huge1 · 20-03-2014 5:40pm

Well the original time-scale would of had construction starting in 2012 with it becoming operational in 2018.

If it were to be in the 2015 capital investment programme, you can assume construction wont start that year, perhaps 2017/18, so then you're talking about 2024 by the original time-scale.

This is all SPECULATIVE of course.

Grandeeod · 22-03-2014 1:06am

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Looks like it is game on so.

It's a game alright.:rolleyes:

annfield1978 · 26-03-2014 11:08am

Why would they have to update the business case, is it anything to do with the railway order issued in 2011 and period in which they have to acquire lands, or construct?

Jack Noble · 26-03-2014 12:52pm

annfield1978 wrote: »

Why would they have to update the business case, is it anything to do with the railway order issued in 2011 and period in which they have to acquire lands, or construct?

A lot has changed since 2009/10 when previous BC was done for IE.

Makes sense to do a new case based on all the current relevant material and circumstances.

If govt is going to proceed with a circa €4billion project, then it needs to be based on the most up to date figures - not a five-year-old document drawn up in a different time under different circumstances.

cgcsb · 26-03-2014 12:58pm

A new business case would be prudent considering the vastly different economic conditions, different population predictions and a revised timescale

strassenwo!f · 27-03-2014 2:04am

Jack Noble wrote: »

A lot has changed since 2009/10 when previous BC was done for IE.

Makes sense to do a new case based on all the current relevant material and circumstances.

If govt is going to proceed with a circa €4billion project, then it needs to be based on the most up to date figures - not a five-year-old document drawn up in a different time under different circumstances.

This would be good. Previously we've seen with this project an initial plan from the (now defunct) Dublin Transportation Office in 2000 becoming a major part of Martin Cullen's (now abandoned) Transport21 thing in 2005, and subsequently becoming a "National Transport Policy requirement" courtesy of An Bord Pleanala in 2011, without any apparent analysis of currently relevant material.

murphaph · 27-03-2014 12:58pm

Meh. Other cities have long term development plans for major infrastructure and don't feel the need to reappraise things all the time.

Banjoxed · 27-03-2014 2:59pm

murphaph wrote: »

Meh. Other cities have long term development plans for major infrastructure and don't feel the need to reappraise things all the time.

Tsk tsk, sure don't you know that if rail is involved, the Officials and politicians need to proof themselves against the newspapers by means of reports.

AFAIK there was never ever a business case for the M3. But that, of course, is different.

monument · 27-03-2014 3:27pm

murphaph wrote: »

Meh. Other cities have long term development plans for major infrastructure and don't feel the need to reappraise things all the time.

You know of many other cities in Dublin's position?

murphaph · 27-03-2014 5:42pm

monument wrote: »

You know of many other cities in Dublin's position?

You'll have to elaborate. What is Dublin's position?

monument · 27-03-2014 10:46pm

murphaph wrote: »

You'll have to elaborate. What is Dublin's position?

I should have elaborated. Stuff such as...

Compared to international norms, these's a disportainate focus on road investment nationally and regionally.

~50% of tax from the country comes from the city and Dublin substitutes other counties but we still have the "Dublin gets everything" rumblings which are hardly ever challenged.

When the country's largest river isn't dredged and flooding occurrs than Dublin are feckers, when Dublin wants to use some of the river's water Dublin are evil feckers.

Local government in the city was fractured by national government causing massive divisions in the county, across the country powers have been taken away from local government again and again, and any attempt at improving local government (ie looking for an elected mayor) has been resisted for years and is still being resisted by the minister for local government who has put up as many road blocks as posable to even allowing people to vote.

National government does not pick up the slack and when Dublin asks for the simplest of things (like upping clamping fines so those who break the law pay for the service) the national government never acts.

The minister has pushed a "local" tax but did not set it for actual use locally. He promised 80% retention by local councils but has since rowed back on even that which has pushed Dublin City Council into a bit of bother and a fairly rare strike back: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/dubliners-get-up-to-50-times-less-funding-than-rural-dwellers-1.1730130

Etc...

Sam Russell · 28-03-2014 12:12am

It is worse than that. Dublin has four local councils (instead of one) but the councils' authority is in the hands of the City/Council manager. The city manager was allowed to squander vast sums on a project to put an unwanted incinerator on the Poolebeg peninsular against popular sentiment, the wishes of the then Minister for the Environment, and the elected members of the city council. Property tax was supposed to be 'local' but is put into a central pot and will be diverted to the rural constituencies - that is after the water lot have had there fill of it.

The same will happen with the DU project. Its fate is in the hands of unelected bodies.

Grandeeod · 28-03-2014 2:29am

monument wrote: »

I should have elaborated. Stuff such as...

Compared to international norms, these's a disportainate focus on road investment nationally and regionally.

~50% of tax from the country comes from the city and Dublin substitutes other counties but we still have the "Dublin gets everything" rumblings which are hardly ever challenged.

When the country's largest river isn't dredged because of flooding than Dublin are feckers, when Dublin wants to use some of the river's water Dublin are evil feckers.

Local government in the city was fractured by national government causing massive divisions in the county, across the country powers have been taken away from local government again and again, and any attempt at improving local government (ie looking for an elected mayor) has been resisted for years and is still being resisted by the minister for local government who has put up as many road blocks as posable to even allowing people to vote.

National government does not pick up the slack and when Dublin asks for the simplest of things (like upping clamping fines so those who break the law pay for the service) the national government never acts.

The minister has pushed a "local" tax but did not set it for actual use locally. He promised 80% retention by local councils but has since rowed back on even that which has pushed Dublin City Council into a bit of bother and a fairly rare strike back: http://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/dubliners-get-up-to-50-times-less-funding-than-rural-dwellers-1.1730130

Etc...

How has it come to this pathetic post as a method of trying to justify a new appraisal pf DU? While I don't agree that a new appraisal is necessary, I don't agree with the absolute bonkers assessment case put out above. DU is a no brainer. We can go back over it as many times as we like, but to analyse it too much, will play into the hands of Government and every other internet nark. Its rather simple actually and always has been.

murphaph · 28-03-2014 8:33am

monument wrote: »

I should have elaborated. Stuff such as...
...
Etc...

Ah ok, I thought you meant something else. Agree entirely with all that. Dublin has been systematically starved of infrastructure since independence. The Luas being the only notable exception and its popularity proves how desperately needed it and other measures like it were/are needed.

Dublin really should have a long term plan and the pieces should be put together as it becomes possible. Chopping and changing the plans all the time is nothing more than a nuisance and waste of money. A bit of certainty to planning goes a long way.

cgcsb · 28-03-2014 12:21pm

We are currently constructing a motorway to Tuam, which is encouraging car use and urban sprawl in Galway, one of the most poorly planned Cities in Europe. We are also constructing a motorway to Wexford, and we are filling in potholes nationwide. If DARTu were open now, it could well push IÉ into profitability, where are our priorities?

murphaph · 28-03-2014 12:52pm

cgcsb wrote: »

We are currently constructing a motorway to Tuam, which is encouraging car use and urban sprawl in Galway, one of the most poorly planned Cities in Europe. We are also constructing a motorway to Wexford, and we are filling in potholes nationwide. If DARTu were open now, it could well push IÉ into profitability, where are our priorities?

To be honest getting IE profitable will never happen and shouldn't be a priority. IE should only be in charge of the infrastructure like Network Rail and even then they'd need reform. The services should be run by private companies under a common livery/fare system as is the plan for Dublin Bus. IE just don't get customer service and never will. It's a jobs club first and foremost. Running a railway plays second fiddle to that jobs club.

richiek83 · 28-03-2014 1:24pm

murphaph wrote: »

To be honest getting IE profitable will never happen and shouldn't be a priority. IE should only be in charge of the infrastructure like Network Rail and even then they'd need reform. The services should be run by private companies under a common livery/fare system as is the plan for Dublin Bus. IE just don't get customer service and never will. It's a jobs club first and foremost. Running a railway plays second fiddle to that jobs club.

It can happen, it achieved surplus/ profit of approx €13 million in 2007. Numbers using Irish Rail services have dropped by about 9-10 million passengers per annum in that timeframe. Your comments about customer service are very fair and correct. Part of the problem for Irish Rail is that they are also at the mercy of the political system. Political pressure ensures that services such as Limerick-Galway, Limerick-Waterford and the Nenagh line remain open despite being severely loss making. It was a political policy to re-open the Limerick-Galway line.

Anyway, back to Dart Underground which is what this thread is all about. The previous business case for DU showed a benefit to cost ratio of 2.4:1. That is a very impressive BCR ratio. I doubt that many other transport investments in the Country, past and present could achieve a return on this kind of investment. A new business case will most likely show a slightly smaller BCR ratio but it will still be extremely positive I reckon. The recent report by the NTA on land use "Planning and Development of Large-Scale, Rail Focussed Residential Areas in Dublin" will no doubt be a driver for the business case. The report sees large scale population growth along the proposed Dart Lines at Adamstown, Clonburris(near Clondalkin), Parkwest, North Fringe and in areas along the Maynooth Line (Hansfield, Blanchardstwon and Pelletstown). These are areas that already have permission for this kind of development. They can become more attractive from a home purchaser point of view and from an investment point of view if DU proceeds.

tharlear · 28-03-2014 8:22pm

A new BC is just a waste of money. It time to stop writing reports and start building.

D.L.R. · 28-03-2014 9:29pm

Dear Irish Govt,

strassenwo!f · 28-03-2014 11:59pm

murphaph wrote: »

Dublin really should have a long term plan and the pieces should be put together as it becomes possible. Chopping and changing the plans all the time is nothing more than a nuisance and waste of money. A bit of certainty to planning goes a long way.

Apart from replacing the 1970s plan with the DTO plan in 2000, has there been a lot of chopping and changing? I mean, there's been plenty of talk and inaction from Government Departments, but chopping and changing?

murphaph · 29-03-2014 10:50am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

Apart from replacing the 1970s plan with the DTO plan in 2000, has there been a lot of chopping and changing? I mean, there's been plenty of talk and inaction from Government Departments, but chopping and changing?

They are not real plans with trans governmental support. They are political footballs to be kicked up in the air at election time.

A real plan would remain constant and at the centre of planning and development in the city and county of Dublin.

Banjoxed · 07-04-2014 10:22pm

cgcsb wrote: »

We are currently constructing a motorway to Tuam, which is encouraging car use and urban sprawl in Galway, one of the most poorly planned Cities in Europe. We are also constructing a motorway to Wexford, and we are filling in potholes nationwide. If DARTu were open now, it could well push IÉ into profitability, where are our priorities?

Well it seems that the priority is looking after those who benefit from rural sprawl. No wonder there is a noisy spoiler campaign seeking to prevent an alternative.

Jack Noble · 30-04-2014 1:20pm

Irish Rail CEO David Franks was interviewed this morning by Pat Kenny on Newstalk and was answering questions from listeners.

One, from an Inchicore, was about Dart Underground and was as interesting for the question as the answer.

Listener said they had received notice from IE that it planned to proceed with DartU and was asserting claims to land in the area - I presume that's land in and around CIE Works.

Franks replied that it looked like the Government would be proceeding with DartU from 2015 and thus IE was 'dusting down it's plans and updating the business case' for DartU.

He then gave a line on how DartU would upgrade the commuter rail network in and around Dublin and allow for a major expansion of the Dart network in Dublin.

And then Kenny moved on without following up on any of that. Sin é.

L1011 · 30-04-2014 4:42pm

Well, the tender for the business plan update has gone out, and its good housekeeping by IE to ensure that any disputes over land that has been appropriated are sorted out well in advance also. There may be no more certainty to it.

Jack Noble · 30-04-2014 4:53pm

MYOB wrote: »

Well, the tender for the business plan update has gone out, and its good housekeeping by IE to ensure that any disputes over land that has been appropriated are sorted out well in advance also. There may be no more certainty to it.

Indeed. But there's intent and movement by Govt and IE that has not been there for years.

Everything points to a serious attempt to progress Dart Underground in the post-2015 Capital Plan but until it's signed off by the Cabinet, I'll keep the Asti Spumante on ice!

cgcsb · 30-04-2014 8:50pm

Out of curiosity is the 2015 plan to be announced in late 2014 i.e. in time for 2015 or is it at some point during 2015?

1huge1 · 30-04-2014 8:53pm

Well Transport 21 was announced alongside the budget way back in 2005.

Could we see the next Capital Plan announced along with the general budget in October... I wouldn't be so confident to be honest.

Jack Noble · 30-04-2014 8:59pm

cgcsb wrote: »

Out of curiosity is the 2015 plan to be announced in late 2014 i.e. in time for 2015 or is it at some point during 2015?

My understanding is it will be announced in 2015 for implementation from 2016 - just in time for General Election!

Jack Noble · 30-04-2014 9:02pm

1huge1 wrote: »

Well Transport 21 was announced alongside the budget way back in 2005.

Could we see the next Capital Plan announced along with the general budget in October... I wouldn't be so confident to be honest.

More likely around Budget 2016 in October 2015 - the same Budget which will have all the tax cuts, Mick Noonan casually threw out there a few months ago...

Jack Noble · 01-05-2014 6:16am

Update in today's Irish Independent.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/irish-rail-puts-2bn-dart-plan-back-on-track-30234613.html

THE underground DART is back on track as Irish Rail gets set to proceed with the €2bn project.

Irish Rail has begun issuing letters to 5,000 home and business owners in Dublin city centre about acquiring land under compulsory purchase orders for the project.

A recent High Court decision has given the green light for the plan, which had been shelved along with the Metro North line in 2011.

The affected homes and businesses are positioned above the proposed underground works from Inchicore to the Docklands.

The article quotes a Department of Transport spokesman:

"Dart Underground will be reviewed in advance of the next capital plan in 2015, but remains a key integration project," stated the spokesman.

But he also said that the "delivery of this project remains subject to sufficient Exchequer finances being available".

The current capital plan runs from 2012-2016.

Sierra Oscar · 01-05-2014 10:24am

Yeah seems to be the case that the government will proceed with this project, probably will be announced towards the end of the lifetime of the government but I wouldn't be too surprised if we heard more in October with the budget. Great news regardless.

strassenwo!f · 01-05-2014 11:35am

I see they have managed to cut the costs considerably. The 2 billion euro project in today's Independent was a 4.1 billion euro project when it was last mentioned in the Irish Times.

Jack Noble · 01-05-2014 11:40am

strassenwo!f wrote: »

I see they have managed to cut the costs considerably. The 2 billion euro project in today's Independent was a 4.1 billion euro project when it was last mentioned in the Irish Times.

The tunnel project to which Indo today refers is circa €2bn.

The overall Dart expansion project, including the tunnel, electrification and station upgrades on Maynooth, Kildare and Northern lines and additional rolling stock, comes in at the €4bn mark.

It's really easy to understand if you pay attention.

strassenwo!f · 01-05-2014 2:33pm

One would think, then, that the 4 bilion euro figure would have been relevant to the article. I wonder why it wasn't mentioned.

Jack Noble · 01-05-2014 2:49pm

strassenwo!f wrote: »

One would think, then, that the 4 bilion euro figure would have been relevant to the article. I wonder why it wasn't mentioned.

You'll have to ask the Indo/Herald reporter and editors that.

Good luck with that.

But here's a little nugget for ya.

In three different articles by three different reporters in the Irish Times, there were three different costs given for Dart Underground - €4.1bn (Feb 4, 2014), €1bn (Jan 3, 2014) and €2.6bn (Dec 21, 2013).

Go figure that one out.

1huge1 · 01-05-2014 4:28pm

Jack Noble wrote: »

You'll have to ask the Indo/Herald reporter and editors that.

Good luck with that.

But here's a little nugget for ya.

In three different articles by three different reporters in the Irish Times, there were three different costs given for Dart Underground - €4.1bn (Feb 4, 2014), €1bn (Jan 3, 2014) and €2.6bn (Dec 21, 2013).

Go figure that one out.

In fairness, the reporter on the 3rd of January said the cost would be ''more than €1bn'', though he could of given a much more precise figure than that.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/225m-spent-on-shelved-dublin-transport-projects-1.1642778

Aard · 01-05-2014 9:00pm

Where do all these figures come from?! They can't simply be made up by reporters...right?

monument · 01-05-2014 9:03pm

Remember that while most of us on here think Dart Underground is one of the most important transport projects, that's not a universal view and nothing is near a done deal until contracts for the main build are signed.

There's still:

-- our very rural/regional-focused national political system which might baulk at the idea of spending €4 billion on Dublin

-- the cut, cut, cut; we need to cut more people, groups and departments... Many of who will be linked to...

-- high-profile economists and other commentators who are against rail of any kind or at least big ticket projects; and these people will likely target DU now that Metro is out of the way

-- the anti-CIE / IR people who don't want any projects run by Irish Rail

-- the "sure, the Phoenix Park tunnel will do" people

Etc

Idbatterim · 01-05-2014 9:09pm

-- our very rural/regional-focused national political system which might baulk at the idea of spending €4 billion on Dublin

spending 4 billion on Dublin? Dublin is massively subsiding most other counties. I find this really infuriating, their logic probably being, if we dont have a metro, why should Dublin :rolleyes: Its just a real pity this and metro north werent started before the crash, just before it would have made it sweeter! Any party who would actually get this built, would have my vote. I'd probably take it ahead of income tax cuts, given what it would do for the city, quality of life, connectivity...

monument · 01-05-2014 9:22pm

Idbatterim wrote: »

spending 4 billion on Dublin? Dublin is massively subsiding most other counties. I find this really infuriating, their logic probably being, if we dont have a metro, why should Dublin :rolleyes: Its just a real pity this and metro north werent started before the crash, just before it would have made it sweeter! Any party who would actually get this built, would have my vote. I'd probably take it ahead of income tax cuts, given what it would do for the city, quality of life, connectivity...

Yes, it is infuriating.

While it seems in some circles the opposing view is getting stronger, it'll still take a lot to get across the idea that Dublin is massively subsiding most other counties.

Grandeeod · 01-05-2014 11:02pm

the anti-CIE / IR people who don't want any projects run by Irish Rail

-- the "sure, the Phoenix Park tunnel will do" people

Hey monument, that's a bit misguided and disrespectful to a few people and I have to check you on it.

The anti CIE/IR People have a point and its a point thats entirely seperate from the building of DU.

As for the PPT will do people, I think you are being very disingenuous. It has been outlined very clearly how the PPT can play a role outside of and within the context of DU.

There may be people that are ignorant of all the facts and history of both, but that should never be held up as supporting evidence to back up your opinion.

Schadenfreudia · 02-05-2014 12:47am

monument wrote: »

-- the anti-CIE / IR people who don't want any projects run by Irish Rail

Etc

I agree that all the other objections you list are rubbish...but the CIE objection is a very valid concern.

Compare and contrast DART and Luas.

1huge1 · 02-05-2014 1:36am

The objection I'm hearing a lot lately is ''sure Dublin is too small of a city to have an underground''

Aard · 02-05-2014 1:43am

I try not to concern myself too much with arguments from people who clearly have only read headlines on a project.

"Dart Underground > underground > Dublin's too small for an underground."

Really? Not worth entertaining imo. Now, people who have done some cursory reading around the project I will gladly listen to.

It's the same with people who think DU is "just" a Heuston-Connolly link. I just smile and nod and let them have their rant

(I'm talking IRL of course here, not on boards!)

liamog · 02-05-2014 2:21am

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

I agree that all the other objections you list are rubbish...but the CIE objection is a very valid concern.

Compare and contrast DART and Luas.

Not sure about the DART vs Luas but the commuter line to Maynooth has been reliable over the last 4 years I've been using, so CIE aren't doing to bad a job.

Its always good to remember that it was the NTA whom were tasked with implementing the Leap card so its not all sunshine and roses at their end.

monument · 02-05-2014 8:05am

Grandeeod wrote: »

Hey monument, that's a bit misguided and disrespectful to a few people and I have to check you on it.

The anti CIE/IR People have a point and its a point thats entirely seperate from the building of DU.

Maybe some anti-IE people points are separate entirely, but there's some of those people who don't want Dart Underground because it's a IR project which will be run by IR -- those are the people I was referring to.

Grandeeod wrote: »

As for the PPT will do people, I think you are being very disingenuous. It has been outlined very clearly how the PPT can play a role outside of and within the context of DU.

There may be people that are ignorant of all the facts and history of both, but that should never be held up as supporting evidence to back up your opinion.

Again: I said people who say that the PPT will do, I did not mention people who say both projects should proceed.

Schadenfreudia wrote: »

I agree that all the other objections you list are rubbish...but the CIE objection is a very valid concern.

Compare and contrast DART and Luas.

I'd like to see what IR could have done if Dart had more money and without Dart / IR books being saddled with the construction costs.

Aard wrote: »

I try not to concern myself too much with arguments from people who clearly have only read headlines on a project.

"Dart Underground > underground > Dublin's too small for an underground."

Really? Not worth entertaining imo. Now, people who have done some cursory reading around the project I will gladly listen to.

It's the same with people who think DU is "just" a Heuston-Connolly link. I just smile and nod and let them have their rant

(I'm talking IRL of course here, not on boards!)

Sadly, all sorts of people need convincing -- even those not too bother to read up about the project.

Oasis_Dublin · 02-05-2014 11:03am

Idbatterim wrote: »

I find this really infuriating, their logic probably being, if we dont have a metro, why should Dublin :rolleyes:

Ah come on now. Kilmuckridge and Claregalway need metros as bad as them auld Dubs!!

DART+ (DART Expansion)

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