Where to meet guys if you're not into the scene?

eaglach wrote: »

I guess I could try clubs and societies, but to be honest it is all very "fruity", no offence. I mean with a name like "Wet and Wild", seriously?

I actually just think you're taking the piss now.

"Where do I find some masculine men"
"Try this group which is for gay men and women to do sports activities like kayaking, wind surfing, hiking"
"No, I can't get past the name, woe is me I'll never find anyone".

eaglach wrote: »

I don't know what my ideal scenario is. I guess I'm just frustrated with my current situation and there is little I can do about it.

There appears to be little you actually want to do about it.

I'm going to be brutal.

You ask these types of questions a lot, and you always get great advice. You simply don't seem to want to hear it.

You (and I hate to say this) need to cop on and get over yourself. Your posts actually denigrate a large proportion of posters here. There are lots of gay men who aren't camp, there's lots of gay men who don't go on the scene, there's lots of gay men who want a relationship. But they're willing to try to meet someone- by trying different tactics. Ruling out an entire social group simply because you think the name is weird? Ruling out entire bars because some men choose to express themselves in a non gender conforming manner? Did you ever think you're creating your own problems?

eaglach wrote: »

I know there are like minded gay guys out there in the same position as myself. But as I say if they are in the same position as myself, I am unlikely to bump into them!

Maybe I'm not really looking for advice. I do tend to come on here with the same problems and not really resolving anything. I think the reason I post these things is to vent. I guess I don't really have any other outlet for my thoughts and just need to get things off my chest.

It's a shame that you have no other outlet at the moment but I'm glad that you are able to speak your mind here

You are probably voicing the feelings of a large number of people - and you have hit the nail exactly on the head when you say that by not reaching out you're unlikely to meet likeminded people. It's a classic no pain, no gain situation - but I think you know that already.

I think you're entitled to come on here any time you like and vent, get things off your chest etc. Just be upfront about it rather than asking how to meet guys etc.

We all need to have a bit of a rant from time to time and people here are generally very supportive and encouraging. We all have our good and bad days, so let it out!

eaglach wrote: »

I don't think it helps the "community" when things are promoted in this way.

Straight guy tuppence worth! Feel free to ignore....

A community that you're part of and accepts you is one that you alter by your belonging.

That's all I got.

I'll just get back to my masculine hetero stereotypical stuff now. Sorry for the intrusion.

Now where did I leave that hammer.......

eaglach wrote: »

A name like "wet and wild" may seem innocent enough, but it's honestly off putting. I don't know, I just get the feeling that most things gay orientated, whether it be groups or bars or whatever, go for either the camp approach or for some sort of sexual innuendo. I don't think it helps the "community" when things are promoted in this way.

Right and what about Emerald Warriors which I also mentioned. Gay rugby group. Or is it Emerald...Oz...Dorothy....Camp.

Wet and Wild is also the name of a water theme park in Orlando. https://www.wetnwildorlando.com/

You're looking for issues when there aren't. Take a risk go to a group instead of assuming everything.

eaglach wrote: »

A name like "wet and wild" may seem innocent enough, but it's honestly off putting. I don't know, I just get the feeling that most things gay orientated, whether it be groups or bars or whatever, go for either the camp approach or for some sort of sexual innuendo. I don't think it helps the "community" when things are promoted in this way.

I see Ten of Swords has referenced an old post by flogg about me "struggling with my identity". That's not it at all. I know exactly who I am and I've no problem with it. The problem I have is finding where I fit in with everyone else! I know there are like minded gay guys out there in the same position as myself. But as I say if they are in the same position as myself, I am unlikely to bump into them!

Honestly, if you aren't struggling with your identity, then maybe you should struggle with it a little bit because your current one isn't a good look.

Why in the world would a community that developed for the purpose of allowing LGBT people to be comfortable and safe in expressing their identity and sexuality have to censor their sexuality out of the picture.

What kind of horrible repressed world would that be.

Straight people don't censor the sex out of society (there's even subtle sexual innuendos in children's cartoons - animaniaca was ripe with them when I was a kid). And yet we have to?

And for whose benefit? Who exactly are we promoting it to and how will that promotion benefit from censuring ourselves?

I presume it's can't be for gay peoples own sake.

If you subscribe to the view that gay people should conform to straight society and tone down their gayness to be accepted by straight people, then you should realise the absurdity of that argument.

If LGBT people are only "accepted" as long as the conform and hide the sexual part of their sexuality, then they aren't accepted at all. They are just tolerated as long as they abide by the majority's terms.

LGBT people will only be accepted for who and what they are when they are free to be who and what they are openly and without fear of being censured or discriminated against.

So the "conform to be accepted" argument is just so ridiculous that it shouldn't even need to be explained.

Scruffy...The Janitor wrote: »

I remember when I was in the closet and deathly afraid of being found out. I would think things like.

'Can't be seen hanging around with this gay mate of mine too much. Everyone will think I'm gay'

'Can't wear a pink t shirt. It's very camp. Everyone will think I'm gay'

Then for a while after I came out I would worry about things like being very conscious about how I acted, gestured, stood etc. I wanted to be the 'straight acting' gay lad and didn't want to be part of the scene etc. I was still very uptight and unsure of my identity and focussed too much on the negative aspects of being gay.

I think you're at this stage. As has been said before you need to put yourself out. Yeah sure, you can go to a gay bar and there may be a bunch of flaming queens in the corner. So what. Like it or not they're part of the community that you're part of. Don't pay them any attention or associate with them if they're not your thing. There'll also be plenty of lads you wouldn't in a million years have guessed are gay. At the moment you just don't notice them cos you're too busy with the negatives.

Same goes for wet and wild. It's like me with the pink t shirt. You're attaching connotations to something that simply aren't there for anyone else. As was said before, there's a theme park in Orlando called Wet and Wild. How many parents do you think avoid bringing their kids to the park cos of it's innuendo?

For the record tho, the only social/sports group I have any experience of is Wet and Wild. It's great for meeting gay men and women in a social setting. But if you go to any of their events with the sole intention of meeting someone to get with you, won't fit in. I would imagine a lot of the groups are the same.

Good advice generally.

On your last point, I think that point (not to go to these things with the sole intention of meeting somebody) applies to life generally.

The best way of meeting somebody is to stop looking for somebody, and instead just try to be as interesting and open minded to new experiences and people as possible.

The more people you meet, the more you are likely to meet the one. And the more interesting you are, the more likely you are to engage him and keep his interest.

And a positive outlook and attitude is much more attractive than a negative and reluctant one.

eaglach wrote: »

A name like "wet and wild" may seem innocent enough, but it's honestly off putting. I don't know, I just get the feeling that most things gay orientated, whether it be groups or bars or whatever, go for either the camp approach or for some sort of sexual innuendo. I don't think it helps the "community" when things are promoted in this way.

You're completely overthinking a tiny minute insignificant detail of the name.

If you can't see beyond the name then you will continue to feel sorry for yourself forever to be honest.

At least you have tried going to a gay bar. It may not have been for you, but at least you gave it a go, which is a tough prospect for those that have never been. Have you ever considered going back and giving it another try, or even going to a different bar? You will see all types in a gay bar, but I actually think that you went in with such a negative feeling towards it, the camp stereotypes you have a dislike of stood out in your mind more than anything else and you allowed your mind to sour the memory of the night. Obviously not every person there was camp or effeminate so I would urge you to give the bars another go, and don't go in and be a wall flower either! Chat to people you aren't getting a 'camp' vibe from, but even if they are camp, or if a camp guy approaches you, it doesn't make them less of a human being and not worthy of your time. You might make a new friend out of them, someone you can socialise with on or off the scene, or they may even be someone that has a masculine, straight acting gay friend who could introduce the two of you. You won't know until you try.

There are dating sites, POF and OKCupid! being the least sleazy of them (in my experience), Gaydar being one of the most sleazy (in my experience) and the rest in between. But there is no set place for you to find a partner, each one has as much chance as the other, be it a website, gay social group, a local coffee shop, a museum... I myself am currently in a relationship (at long last!) with a wonderful guy and we are very happy together. Where did we meet? It started off as a random chat on Grindr one night. Grindr. A gay cruising app. I never used the app for sex, as like you, I find that whole side of the gay culture to be sleazy and off-putting, but I did chat to guys on it when bored as a distraction, and look what happened. Two people who had a hell of a lot in common about everything in life started randomly chatting and got on so well they met up and have had the time of their lives in the last 3 months. You can find someone in the least likely of places if you open yourself up to the possibility of it. If you harbour negative thoughts about things like bars or gay groups then you'll never get anywhere as statistically these are the places you will be most likely to have success in meeting someone. As another poster has already said, the world isn't going to change to accommodate you. You are the one that has to make the effort. The first place to start is with yourself. Sort out in your head that the scene is gonna be camp in some way, but that's life. So what? Once you accept that then you can visit the scene and enjoy it in a way you haven't been able to before. Hell, at one point I felt the same as you. I didn't want to go anywhere near the scene as all I had ever heard was stories about how camp it was, how effeminate the guys were and how sex obsessed it was. But I realise now this was all coming from jaded people who were sick of the scene either because they had been there so often it didn't offer them anything new, or they were guys who had never been or only been once or twice and instantly formed a negative opinion of it, probably because of what they were told beforehand too! It's a vicious cycle!

Regards showing your face, you will probably find that people online will not accept excuses for not showing face pics. You say it is career orientated, but I've had a gay cop show me his face pics (and other things besides). I am not sure what career would make it wrong for you to show your identity online. I find that a lot of less experienced gay guys have the same thoughts about people finding out who you are and 'exposing you', but in doing so they'd expose themselves so that's not gonna happen. Your parents and family aren't on these gay sites, so who cares if a face pic is shown, all they have is a face and a username. What can they do with that?

To sum up, all of your situation seems to be stemming from your own hang-ups over campness, innuendo laden names and fear of being front page news in your local paper. All of these things are in your control and you yourself have to get over them and realise they do not affect your life in any way but you are choosing to let them. Until you do that you are doomed to repeat the same steps over and over until you look back at your post history on here and your life in general and realise you wasted so much time complaining about your situation and not doing anything about it, and that is time you'll never get back. If you want your life to improve then go and do something about it, and do it now.

eaglach wrote: »

Not helpful at all.

What I don't get is why I am seen as the one who is wrong here everytime. Is it so hard to believe that someone is not interested in these places or activites?

Look at it this way, imagine a straight person having to go to special clubs or bars to meet potential partners. This is not the case. Of course, they have the option to use dating sites or joining social groups for these purposes, but most people don't have to do this. Straight people can go about their normal day and potentially meet a partner.

Now you might say a gay person can meet someone in their normal day, but for me this is unlikely. I think I have a broken gaydar.

Look, I get that there's no changing this situation and the only way to deal with it is to get out there and interact with the gay community or whatever, but it's just frustrating that we have to do that, to go out of our way to meet potential partners. So yeah, I guess this is a venting session. Sorry.

Oh and on the point of showing my face online, it's not that I don't show my face to people, I just don't advertise it if you get what I mean. As long as I know that the person is not connected with my workplace I don't mind.

The reason you are seen as being in the wrong is because you continually ask for the same advice and continue to ignore the advice then given. Advice that has worked well for each and every one of the rest of us.

That, and the fact that you continue to believe in and repeat the same naive/ignorant mis-characterisations about gay people and the gay community, and refuse to acknowledge the realities of the LGBT community which the rest of us all see and live.

I don't know about the girls here, but a lot of the gay men on this forum have been in a similar headspace to you in terms of wanting to disassociating ourselves with the supposed campiness and feminist of the gay scene and other gay people. We did so out of a fear that this is how we would be seen by others, and maybe worse by ourselves, by association. Giving into the glittery side would mean we'd stop being ourselves and just become another limp wristed poof as far as the world was concerned.

And a lot of us also liked the comfort of the closet and didn't want to leave it.

But we all came to the realisation that we had to get over that **** if we didn't want to end up all alone and miserable for the rest of our life.

So we did something about it. It wasn't necessarily easy but we did it.

You don't seem to be willing to do anything about your situation, yet expect us to provide you with a solution to your problem.

And you refuse to acknowledge that maybe the problem could be with you, and your attitudes and insecurities, rather than being the gay scenes for being too gay, or life for dealing you a bum hand.

When I finally acknowledged I was gay and came out, the first 12 months were hard at times. I too hated the fact that I had to go make a new social circle, go to special clubs just to meet guys, change things in my life when others didn't have to. The first time I went to a gay event I walked him in tears - not because I didn't enjoy it but because I was so pissed off with the fact I had to jump through all these hoops that my straight friends didn't.

But I also knew there was no way around it and I had to do it. Unless I wanted to stay lonely and miserable I had to change my life and get out there. Even if I hated it at the time, I knew that it was necessary and worth it, and that I would be extremely unlikely to regret any of it.

And I don't. I'm so glad that I did it. If was tough but even during the toughest times in my first 12 months I was happier for having decided to finally live my life for me then I ever was living in the apparent comfort of the closet. What's more I grew to love the extra community I now had, even if all aspects of it weren't for me. I love that I can walk into a tiny gay bar anywhere in the world and automatically be a part of a community.

So nobody blames you for feeling the way you do. And we know it can take time to work your way through all those issues.

Your problem is not wanting to work through then. Not recognising it's your **** that you need to get over and that life won't get better until you change something. If you don't want to change and are more comfortable in the closet that's fine, but make peace with what you are CHOOSING to give up for it. And don't expect life to provide happiness for you when you are choosing to turn your back on the opportunities to pursue it.


As for the online profile pics, that's up to you what you do. Just so you know though, if I was on a dating site/app I generally wouldn't give a guy without a pic a second look. Lots of guys would have the same attitude.

Generally, those are the guys that want a proper, healthy, and functional relationship. Probably the type of guys you might look for.

Well grounded guys who want something real and meaningful tend to look for guys who have their **** together. I generally presume a guy who isn't willing to show his face and just interact normally doesn't have his **** together.

So as long as you value your privacy over everything else, that attitude is going going to put off a lot of the better men before you even begin.

floggg wrote: »

<snip>... Giving into the glittery side... <snip>

Sorry, I had to laugh. I love this!

OP, I was like you when I was in my late teens and early 20's. Seriously, I was. But I did eventually realise that unless I did something then nothing was gonna change and that life wasn't gonna modify itself just for me. So, I put my face pic on my online profiles, I tried talking to anyone and everyone on dating sites, I went to a gay bar, terrified, but I went, I approached guys, I got over the fact that some guys are 'a bit girly' (I think I have mellowed and perhaps at times acted a bit girly myself, usually with drink involved though!)... Essentially I took all that negative shíte I was harbouring and just let it go and do you know something? I am much happier and healthier for it and I'm so glad I did it. If I could go back and shout at my younger self and tell him to do it sooner I would. Life is too short for hang-ups on little things.

Honestly, this advice gets trotted out constantly to every user who posts it, (I myself made threads like yours on here a few times and was told the same thing), and the reason why it is given out is because it is the truth and it works if you follow it. It took me a while before it sank in, I dealt with it and then followed it, but it does work. I hope that soon enough you realise that and do something about it, so that in time to come you yourself are a much happier person for it and you'll be on here one day telling the next guy about what he should be doing and how it changed his life for the better.... just like I'm doing for you now.

eaglach wrote: »

How have I mis-characterised gay people?



Well originally I was asking for advice, but now I realise it was really just me venting my frustration rather than seeking advice.



I don't know what insecurities you are talking about. If it's me not showing my face on dating websites, well as I've mentioned before, it's a career thing.



Actually, I think quite the opposite. Any of the decent guys I have met from these websites don't have a face pic on their profile. In fact, if I see someone with a face pic I would be much less likely to talk to them! I know I'll be in for a barrage of criticism now.

I've found most of the guys with face pics are quite open with their sexuality, which is why they show their face, but are also pretty camp. I don't know if it was the luck of the draw, or if it is generally like that, but that's how I perceived it.

Meanwhile, guys that don't have a face pic up are mostly masculine, somewhat closeted guys. They are in the same position as me and I can relate to them.

You are repeatedly doing mischaracterising the community - whether it be your comments on the supposed campiness of the clientele of gay bars, the fruitiness of clubs and societies, or your views on guys who are open with their sexuality.

I assure I have never once in my life being called camp or fruity, and yet I have formed part of every one of those scenes at various points (gay bars, clubs and societies and a confident and secure gay men who isn't afraid to show his face or identify as such).

We have all experienced the same bars, clubs, societies you have, used the same apps, met the same types of people. We know your experiences aren't true to ours, so either the universe aligned to give you a truly misrepresentative view of each of these things, or else the issue is your perception.

As for your insecurities, your posts all scream insecure gay man who hasn't accepted his sexuality - regardless of what he might tell himself.

You seem to actively dislike "camp" guys (there's a preference and then there's the guys who avoid like the plague), fear or are uncomfortable associating with anything "camp", "fruity" or just openly gay and seem to be uncomfortable with gay guys who are comfortable with their sexuality and aren't afraid who knows it. And you seem to have a crippling fear of being outed or being seen as gay (crippling in that instead of living life you are stuck in the same rut and doing nothing to change it).

All that screams to me somebody who still really isn't comfortable or accepting of their sexuality. As I said most of us went through it, so I know the signs well.

The discomfort with "camp" and "fruitiness" is usually a fear of guilt by association - that when people realise your gay that's how you will be seen and so you push hard against it. It reminds you that you are different and you will always be different no matter how hard you pretend otherwise.

And closeted guys are preferable for guys in that boat because there is less chance of them outing you. They are in the same boat. And they will put just as much energy in as you in denying their gay, masking anything that will give them away to others and remind you of what you both are, and what you're being together really is.

With openly gay guys (regardless of camp or not) there are too many reminders that they are gay, and too many associated risks. And they won't be as willing to hide and sneak around, and so will challenge the closeted bubble you live in and put you in awkward positions.

I use "you" in the general sense above, and not refer to you OP specifically. I have never met you so I can't say the above necessarily applies to you. But certainly from here it seems like it very will could.

The alternative is (and I don't mean this to be insulting or get personal) that you just have a really ****ty and entitled outlook on life. You have extremely specific preferences in terms of friends and relationships and won't even make any effort to interact with people or scenes that don't fit them, you are very self entitled and expect life to be on your terms and don't believe you should have to make any compromises for your wants and needs to become attainable, you are judgmental and superficial and refuse to reconsider your first impressions of people or places and get to really know them, and you are a bit of a prude.

Again, I don't say any of that to be critical, mean or insulting. I mean it as constructive criticism.

Either way, it's something you should take on board - to either work on the insecurities or adjust your attitude to life.

eaglach wrote: »

I will be honest and say I don't like being associated with the campness of the gay community. It's synonymous with gay culture. Look at 99% of references to it in media. It's all limp wristed, pink wearing sex mad men. I know that isn't how it is in reality, but that's the message the public is receiving.

I actually think you're wrong. Perhaps 10 or 20 years ago that was the case, but right now the overwhelming press is about people wanting equal rights.

eaglach wrote: »

You're even promoting it yourselves with the ridiculous Gay Pride Parade. It's not helping anyone. You're trying to show we're normal like everyone else by (some people) parading around in S&M gear? Can you blame me for not wanting to be associated with it? It's fine if that's what you're into, but it's not me.

Again, when was the last time you actually went to Pride? It is now a family event with very strict rules about costumes. It is overwhelmingly just regular Joes and Jane Soap's marching to show they they will not be kept silent about the fact that there are many many rights that we don't have simply because we're gay or trans.

eaglach wrote: »

You might think this is me being insecure about my sexuality, but that certainly is not the case. I am very accepting of it. I have told most of my friends that I am gay. I even went out on a number of occassions with my friends and my boyfriend in tow.

eaglach wrote: »

Yes, I will say that I would be uncomfortable in going out with a fully out gay guy. Why? As I mentioned before, I don't want it to get back to my workplace, or even my housemates.

Dude, what you have written there directs contradicts itself. Seriously, you say you're fine with your sexuality, yet the people you live with every day don't know. You are out to "most" of your friends. That doesn't scream security in your sexuality to me, frankly.

eaglach wrote: »

In my last relationship it was very difficult for this reason. He was in the same position as me. Out to most of his friends, but not his work or housemates. For this reason we had to stay in the shadows. We couldn't even be "alone" together in case our housemates found out. It was very stressful. But there was no other option.

Yes there was. Come out. There's always another option.

eaglach wrote: »

Extremely specific preferences? I don't see how. I'm just don't "get on" with camp guys. That's not meant as a negative statement by the way. It's just like how some people don't get on with nerdy types, or really sporty types. Sometimes two types of people just don't click. I don't see that as having an entitled outlook on life. I see it as reality.

It actually seems like you've still got 'school' mentality. You know, putting people into their social groups. The nerds can't talk to the jocks, or other such rubbish.

eaglach wrote: »

I'm talking mostly about TV shows or movies. When was the last time you saw a gay character where being gay wasn't one of his "quirks". They always fit the stereotype.

This has been fairly well picked apart at this point.

eaglach wrote: »

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Dublin_gay_pride_2013_%289172218799%29.jpg

http://static1.demotix.com/sites/default/files/imagecache/a_scale_large/1100-1/photos/1332161425-london-school-of-samba--st-patrick-days-parade-2012_1113751.jpg

I guess the Dublin St Patricks day parade is a sex filled orgy. One picture proves it all, eh?

Aren't you just legitimising your housemate's homophobia by tolerating (and dare I say accepting) it OP?

You expect other gay people to blaze the trail and do the hard work for you.

eaglach wrote: »

There's a lot to get through here so bear with me.



Once again, read what I said. I said the campness of the scene, not that all gay guys are camp. Stop putting words in my mouth.



I haven't seen most of them as they are aren't exactly my type of shows. I will have to take your word for it.



Sorry, here you go: http://www.irishtimes.com/polopoly_fs/1.1448041.1372521585!/image/image.jpg_gen/derivatives/box_940/image.jpg



Yes, I am making this choice. But it's a logical choice. If I tell him it wouldn't make things any better. If I move I'm hardly going to tell the person renting the house I am gay before moving in, so I'll be back to the same position I am in at the moment.




No, I would not be fired. But who is to say that certain co workers have a grudge against homosexuals? Maybe my manager is a homophobe? I could easily be passed for promotion on this basis, or even let go under another premise.



I am getting tired of people not listening to me. I never said the whole community is like this. How can I get it through to your thick skulls? I know it's only a part of the community, but it's how the community is perceived.

Who remembers the "average" guys in the gay pride parade? No one.
Who remembers the guy in the S&M gear? Everyone!



But who is she representing? Look at it this way, if she was representing nurses, or teachers, how does dressing up like that showcase whatever they are trying to showcase. I'm sure she was there purely as "eye candy" as that is what the parade is about. Entertaining the audience.

Is the Gay Pride parade there to allow some people display their sexual fetishes? No. It's there to try and integrate the community, unless I am sorely mistaken.



Nope. See above.



You're being very flippant. Look, coming out and being gay may be a cake walk for you, but for others it's not so easy. And for your information, it is a big sign. What's bigger than coming out to your closest friends and for them to accept you?



See my comments previously.



It is partly about what people may think about me, yes.



Seeing as most of my life revolves around my workplace and my home, how can I not choose the former?

I'm not going through it all so here's a couple of bullet points:

* we all face those risks in work. There are frankly fairly slim these days. If anything most employers err on the side of not pissing of the LGBT worker just in case they land themselves with a discrimination action.

But you're circumstances aren't any different to the rest of us.

* on accomodation, if you think it will be an issue when viewing a place or interviewing perspective room mates, you casually mention something like "is there any issue if I was to have a boyfriend over". Better to find out there and then if it will be an issue then had to spend your time sneaking around.

* coming out was hard as hell for me. How about reading some of my posts. I knew at the time it would be worth it, and I knew the alternative was a dark and scary option.

* you might think I was being glib, and it was a milestone for us all to bring a partner out for the first time. But ultimately it shouldn't be a big deal. It's only significant for most of us because it was the first time. It's normal and expected. What type of relationship would you be in where you couldn't. So in that context, the fact that you saw it as such a big sign of your acceptance is reflective that of where your head is at. You don't see it as mundane. It should be.


* pride is about saying we are here, we are proud of who we are, and we don't feel we should have to hide how we are in order or conpromise in order to gain your acceptance. So basing your costume choice on what you think will be most palatable to straight people goes against the whole point of pride.

It was the drag queens, the camp men, the butch dykes and the exhibitionists who started off the whole gay pride and rights movement after all. Look up stonewall and the history of the gay rights movement.

And as I've said before, if you have to play down aspects of who you are as a community in order to be accepted then you aren't accepted.

* given you are unhappy with the consequence of your choice, it doesn't seem all that logical to the rest of us.

*if most of your life revolves around work and housemates who don't even know (and may not accept) the real you, then you should seriously take up a new hobby or interest. Apart from any LGBT club or society. You need an outlet though.

Look at the end of the day it's a choice you are making. If you are happy with it, then fine.

However, having been in your shoes, there is little you can say that would persuade us your making the right or logical choice.

We've been there, we know the reasons against coming out and dealing with your sexuality. And we know the benefits of doing so. If you ask for advice we will always give you the same advice because it's tried and tested, and always proves correct.

Likely it's not really us you are trying to convince anyway - it's yourself.

I doubt you are going to change your mind on this now. You are too entrenched in your views.

Just know that it won't get better if you continue the way you are. It gets harder the longer you continue lying about who you are and sneaking around. Luckily you are somewhat out to friends so have people you can talk to.

Ultimately though there may well come a time when, for your own mental and emotional health, you need to make some changes in your life.

We will be there for you when your ready (and as long as you are open minded and willing to take on board what we say we'll be here in the interim too). Until then, remember that you have options and that friends, housemates or a career aren't worth much to you if you aren't happy with your life outside of work.