Lack of new routes at Cork airport

SpaceTime · 19-04-2015 12:38pm

The concern I'd have is that Shannon has always existed on various prop up measures:

The totally unnecessary transatlantic stopover (cost airlines a fortune and doubled the cycles per flight)

US troop transshipment which has been extremely politically divisive and may have even called Irish neutrality into question - all to prop up an airport.

Meanwhile Cork has just operated as an actual commercial airport.

My concern is that the above shows that Shannon has enormous lobbying power for some reason and that Cork simply doesn't - possibly because Cork has a lot more going on than an airport. The Shannon region seems to think that they've only got one priority: SNN airport.

I'm just finding that there are some posts here and elsewhere that seem to be almost gleeful that Cork airport is going through a rough patch.

It's crazy parochial nonsense and it's typical of what tends to wreck Irish regional balanced development.

snotboogie · 19-04-2015 12:42pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

Not from Shannon.

That's complete BS. If any carrier was to start TATL from cork, it would be a 757 and stay a 757 for a lonnng time. The only widebody aircraft operating a passenger service to Shannon this year will be an Aer Lingus 767 for June-August. The other 5 daily flights (in peak season) will be 757's.

If the 757 is such a high costing airplane, how come prices at Shannon are routinely cheaper than Dublin (to the USA)?

Not that it makes any real difference but A330's frequently fly from Shannon.
There is one in the air now!
https://planefinder.net/data/flight/KL6153

I was quoting the head of the DAA, maybe it gives you an insight into how Cork is being screwed.

JCX BXC · 19-04-2015 12:46pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

The concern I'd have is that Shannon has always existed on various prop up measures:

The totally unnecessary transatlantic stopover (cost airlines a fortune and doubled the cycles per flight)

US troop transshipment which has been extremely politically divisive and may have even called Irish neutrality into question - all to prop up an airport.

Meanwhile Cork has just operated as an actual commercial airport.

My concern is that the above shows that Shannon has enormous lobbying power for some reason and that Cork simply doesn't - possibly because Cork has a lot more going on than an airport. The Shannon region seems to think that they've only got one priority: SNN airport.

I'm just finding that there are some posts here and elsewhere that seem to be almost gleeful that Cork airport is going through a rough patch.

It's crazy parochial nonsense and it's typical of what tends to wreck Irish regional balanced development.

Another weak insult from the cork crowd when things aren't going their way

We have gone through these points before in detail. I'm not going to waste my time again.

Believe it or not, Clare politicians do alot more than defend the airport down the road. I do think some of them need a good kick up the hole for their almost complete abandonment of west Clare.

That last point is the best IMO, its like your against the development of rural Ireland.

JCX BXC · 19-04-2015 12:53pm

snotboogie wrote: »

Not that it makes any real difference but A330's frequently fly from Shannon.
There is one in the air now!
https://planefinder.net/data/flight/KL6153

I was quoting the head of the DAA, maybe it gives you an insight into how Cork is being screwed.

I understand how cork is being screwed, and I favour a debt wipe and separation from the DAA.

Also that's very unusual information, there is not any scheduled passenger A333 flights from Shannon for 2015 at all. KLM/AirFrance/Delta also don't fly from Shannon in April.

Edit: That's really old information, probably dating back to 2009 and before.

SpaceTime · 19-04-2015 12:57pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

Another weak insult from the cork crowd when things aren't going their way

We have gone through these points before in detail. I'm not going to waste my time again.

Believe it or not, Clare politicians do alot more than defend the airport down the road. I do think some of them need a good kick up the hole for their almost complete abandonment of west Clare.

That last point is the best IMO, its like your against the development of rural Ireland.

It's not a weak insult. Shannon is basically Irish parochialism and clientele politics represented in bricks and mortar.

I can think of no other country in Europe that forced transatlantic traffic to stopover at a regional airport for decades.

That basically halved the life of Aer Lingus' older transatlantic fleet (aircraft life being measured in take off and landing cycles).

Directly subsiding the airport would have at least been honest and transparent and had far less environmental impact!

Knock is the other example - just seems daft as a location instead of Galway City.

At least when motorway access to Shannon is complete Galway will be a lot more accessible by air. Most business people I know fly to Dublin and drive there as it's more flexible tho.

The WRC is another one... That money could have been spent on Galway and Limerick suburban public transport and on enhancing western bus services. It would have had much more impact!

JCX BXC · 19-04-2015 1:03pm

Shannon is a very good located airport. Its basically Limericks airport. Didn't Dublin airport used to be called Collinstown airport? Shannon is in a place where it can get all/most the traffic in the western corridor of Limerick-Shannon-Ennis-Galway and all the commuter towns in between. Get that into your head first of all.

In order to avoid a warning I will only say this, Knock is properly near nothing. Knock Shrine? Ha. That's charter traffic at best.

Also, what is the problem with our politicians getting good for our airport? Just because the weak willed things in Cork won't do anything doesnt mean Shannon should have to hear about it!

TINA1984 · 19-04-2015 1:21pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

It's not a weak insult. Shannon is basically Irish parochialism and clientele politics represented in bricks and mortar.

I can think of no other country in Europe that forced transatlantic traffic to stopover at a regional airport for decades.

That basically halved the life of Aer Lingus' older transatlantic fleet (aircraft life being measured in take off and landing cycles).

Directly subsiding the airport would have at least been honest and transparent and had far less environmental impact!

Knock is the other example - just seems daft as a location instead of Galway City.

At least when motorway access to Shannon is complete Galway will be a lot more accessible by air. Most business people I know fly to Dublin and drive there as it's more flexible tho.

The WRC is another one... That money could have been spent on Galway and Limerick suburban public transport and on enhancing western bus services. It would have had much more impact!

Indeed, the Shannon/Mid-Western Lobby is unquestionably the best organised across all the political parties, and has been for decades. Their ability of squeezing public money & boondoggle's into their bailiwicks is unmatched by pols from any other region, even Dublin.

snotboogie · 19-04-2015 1:24pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

Shannon is a very good located airport. Its basically Limericks airport. Didn't Dublin airport used to be called Collinstown airport? Shannon is in a place where it can get all/most the traffic in the western corridor of Limerick-Shannon-Ennis-Galway and all the commuter towns in between. Get that into your head first of all.

In order to avoid a warning I will only say this, Knock is properly near nothing. Knock Shrine? Ha. That's charter traffic at best.

Also, what is the problem with our politicians getting good for our airport? Just because the weak willed things in Cork won't do anything doesnt mean Shannon should have to hear about it!

Shannon and Ennis combined have about the same population as Douglas, I imagine the "Shannon-Ennis corridor" has a significantly smaller population than the "Douglas-Passage West Corridor"

We've been over the differences in population. Cork airport serves a much bigger population, especially within 30 minutes of the airport but it still vastly out serves Shannon when you stretch it out to an hour or hour and a half commute. There are about 400,000 within 45 minutes of Cork airport, you would struggle to get to that total number within an hour and a half commute of Shannon.

JCX BXC · 19-04-2015 11:47pm

Shannon-Ennis corridor has around 40,000 people, with the added population of Limerick that makes up quite a few passengers. It also gets a lot of Galway due to the motorway.

I purpose we stop this because its turned quite petty at this stage.

My original point was that the DAA is the main strangeling force behind Cork, Shannon isn't.

JCX BXC · 20-04-2015 12:29am

In other news, Have Aer Lingus loaded their winter schedule fully yet? Glasgow seems to end on the 24th of October

Reputable Rog · 20-04-2015 8:52am

TINA1984 wrote: »

Indeed, the Shannon/Mid-Western Lobby is unquestionably the best organised across all the political parties, and has been for decades. Their ability of squeezing public money & boondoggle's into their bailiwicks is unmatched by pols from any other region, even Dublin.

Have you any evidence to back up your assertion?

snotboogie · 20-04-2015 6:35pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

Shannon-Ennis corridor has around 40,000 people, with the added population of Limerick that makes up quite a few passengers. It also gets a lot of Galway due to the motorway.

I purpose we stop this because its turned quite petty at this stage.

My original point was that the DAA is the main strangeling force behind Cork, Shannon isn't.

It's not petty, you are just ignoring the numbers. That 40,000 figure doesn't dispute anything I just wrote.

Newstalk just did a feature on this and the former DAA employee stopped just short of saying we need to close Cork airport. Real insight into how they think.

Rhys Essien · 20-04-2015 7:27pm

snotboogie wrote: »

It's not petty, you are just ignoring the numbers. That 40,000 figure doesn't dispute anything I just wrote.

Newstalk just did a feature on this and the former DAA employee stopped just short of saying we need to close Cork airport. Real insight into how they think.

I heard that.Totally deluded.Their attitude came across was that Dublin Airport was all that mattered.They then talk about Corks new terminal saddling debt,while failing to mention Dublins T2 costing €600 million.

JCX BXC · 20-04-2015 7:31pm

Maybe someone should go on Newstalk to set them straight? You'll always come across eejits like that, no one seems to challenge them. Sometimes even the most experienced of people don't know their facts. Eg the man from Travel Extra saying that people should put masks on their children first.

JCX BXC · 20-04-2015 7:35pm

snotboogie wrote: »

It's not petty, you are just ignoring the numbers. That 40,000 figure doesn't dispute anything I just wrote.

It is fairly petty, its like we are trying to argue the means for the simple existence of Cork and Shannon Airport. There is strong means for both to exist. People fail to think of Shannon as Limerick's airport though, which I think needs to be highlighted.

That 40,000 does dispute things, Douglas and passage west combined have 30,000 people

.

Rhys Essien · 20-04-2015 7:56pm

@Carnacalla

I know your a proud Clare man but surely logic would tell you that the 3 main Irish airports should be Dublin(Leinster population 2.5m),Cork(Munster population 1.24m),and Knock(Connacht population 0.54m).The three are almost equidistant from each other.

Geographically,Shannon makes no sense.

Sadly,sense is not very common with our government.

JCX BXC · 20-04-2015 8:12pm

Rhys Essien wrote: »

@Carnacalla

I know your a proud Clare man but surely logic would tell you that the 3 main Irish airports should be Dublin(Leinster population 2.5m),Cork(Munster population 1.24m),and Knock(Connacht population 0.54m).The three are almost equidistant from each other.

Geographically,Shannon makes no sense.

Sadly,sense is not very common with our government.

Shannon is Limerick's airport. That's basically it.

Why should Irelands 3rd city not had an airport?

Also what is the point of Knock. That one was built by a priest and knock had no population centre nearby. I fail to see logic in that argument.

Although I agree with your argument, sense is not common. That's obvious from your post.

Rhys Essien · 20-04-2015 8:54pm

BTW,Im not saying I want to see Shannon gone.This give Dublin everything, and the rest of the country scraps needs to stop.

We'll have to see how this meeting goes on Wednesday.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/daa-chief-to-attend-summit-on-cork-airport-debt-324869.html

On another note,does anyone have the annual national tax intake figures that come from Cork companies and employees?.

JCX BXC · 20-04-2015 8:57pm

It is fairly unusual not to recognise Shannon as limericks airport though isn't it? IMO, without a proper airport in Galway, Shannon can rival cork.

SpaceTime · 21-04-2015 1:04am

This "close cork" argument needs to be knocked on the head.

The DAA shouldn't be running it - end of story.

If DAA ran Belfast City Airport do you think it'd prosper? Or would DAA funnel traffic to the mothership?

If Cork's TDs and particularly the senior minister can't or won't do anything about it, they really should consider different careers.

At least Aer Rianta had a mission to run the state airports. The DAA is the DUBLIN airport authority - why's it running a competing airport in Cork?!

It was supposed to be a stopgap situation pending the spin out of Cork and Shannon and look what's happened?!

JCX BXC · 21-04-2015 1:07am

SpaceTime wrote: »

This "close cork" argument needs to be knocked on the head.

The DAA shouldn't be running it - end of story.

If Cork's TDs and particularly the senior minister can't or won't do anything about it, they really should consider different careers.

If you go back one of my previous posts, I had a rant about how Shannon and Cork should work together to get
the focus off Dublin. For that to happen, the DAA cannot be in control. Until them Cork and Shannon will just be abused by Ryanair and pricing wars until them.

Its still rather idoitic to have something called -Dublin Airport Authority" running one of the main competitors to Dublin.

SpaceTime · 21-04-2015 1:10am

All I know is the current situation is undermining Cork Airport which will inevitably do damage to Cork's current strong recovery.

jank · 21-04-2015 4:18am

One thing Cork Airport could do is try to get one of the middle east carriers to fly from there to the UAE. I beleive that would be success as many people in Munster would use it to travel to the Far East, Africa and onwards to OZ/NZ.

I have always flown to Cork from here but recently, its faster and less hassle to fly direct to Dublin (Its the fastest way) and then drive down on the M7/M8 to cork.
Otherwise I would have to fly to London or AMS or some other European airport to catch a flight to cork. Having a number of flights per week to UAE from cork would see traffic increase. Not sure if the airport could handle planes though.

The thing is a bit of a white elephant, nice and shiny alright but utterly lacking independance and foresight into where and why people travel.

The good roads are sucking people into Dublin which means that more people and routes will want to fly out from there. There are too many airports in Ireland but there is room from both Shannon and Cork to etch out their niche.

pwurple · 21-04-2015 7:27am

I flew four times in the last week, twice through Cork and it's a fab airport. But it's like a vicious circle with the lack of flights. Sure, Brussels is served by cork... Two flights a week. Dublin - brussels? 4 times a day.

I was flying with a bunch of people who work in a multinational with locations near brussels and cork city, travelling between them for work, but they didn't even consider cork airport as an option for either leg, even though one would probably have suited. That company alone puts ~50 employees a week through dublin to get to Cork and back to belgium, but two flights a week is useless. These people want to fly in and out same day, or maybe an overnight.

It's just so daft putting on such seriously limited services, and calling it served.

draiochtanois · 21-04-2015 10:18am

This post has been deleted.

SpaceTime · 21-04-2015 10:30am

pwurple wrote: »

I flew four times in the last week, twice through Cork and it's a fab airport. But it's like a vicious circle with the lack of flights. Sure, Brussels is served by cork... Two flights a week. Dublin - brussels? 4 times a day.

I was flying with a bunch of people who work in a multinational with locations near brussels and cork city, travelling between them for work, but they didn't even consider cork airport as an option for either leg, even though one would probably have suited. That company alone puts ~50 employees a week through dublin to get to Cork and back to belgium, but two flights a week is useless. These people want to fly in and out same day, or maybe an overnight.

It's just so daft putting on such seriously limited services, and calling it served.

The Brussels connection was also mid afternoon which was totally pointless. Most people aren't flying there for tourism reasons.
So it didn't have many passengers.

rebs23 · 21-04-2015 11:31am

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Very few flights if any get diverted because of fog anymore.
The runway can accomodate transatlantic routes.
The road between Cork and Limerick has been delayed again recently and will not be constructed for at least 10 years.

snotboogie · 21-04-2015 10:08pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

It is fairly petty, its like we are trying to argue the means for the simple existence of Cork and Shannon Airport. There is strong means for both to exist. People fail to think of Shannon as Limerick's airport though, which I think needs to be highlighted.

That 40,000 does dispute things, Douglas and passage west combined have 30,000 people .

You said corridor, they have Rochestown in the middle. Shannon and Ennis combined have less than 30k....

The fact we are even debating Douglas and Passage West vs Shannon and Ennis proves how ridiculous the location of Shannon airport is.

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

The fog is essentially a non issue these days. The technology to clear fog is widely available in all airports, including Cork. The runway can thankfully still be extended easily, since the DAA was caught and stopped from trying to sell the land which makes this possible.

jank wrote: »

One thing Cork Airport could do is try to get one of the middle east carriers to fly from there to the UAE. I beleive that would be success as many people in Munster would use it to travel to the Far East, Africa and onwards to OZ/NZ.

I can't see that working with the volume of flights and level of investment Emirates and Ethiad have put into Dublin. You have four flights a day at the moment from Dublin to the UAE. Cork would be swallowed up if it tried to compete. The only opening would be to go further East once or twice a week, since Dublin doesn't offer anything beyond the UAE. Singapore and Hong Kong would offer an alternative route to Asia and Australia. That's pretty fanciful thinking though, especially when Cork can't even secure solid European routes and has never operated a transatlantic flight. It's also interesting that Shannon has never explored this. There must be some reason why.

JCX BXC · 21-04-2015 10:36pm

How is Shannon's location ridiculous, explain that? Its right beside Limerick. Cork has actually a worse location, on a hill with a North/South runway.

SpaceTime · 21-04-2015 10:42pm

I don't think you'll see much progress on flights East bound from Cork or Shannon for a long time other than maybe some scope for maybe for charters if the eastern tourism market grows.

Asian flights aren't as highly competitive as infra European flights so, I can't really see anything going secondary airports. Most of those routes rely on having large, full aircraft or else they're very expensive and not likely to be chasing lower airport charges anyway.

Cork needs to look at places with significant numbers of people who want to fly to the southern part of Ireland too. It needs very tight marketing that coincides with big drives to market the region.

If it's looking at transatlantic maybe specialising in trying to target some point to point flights with smaller aircraft to smaller US and Canadian cities than the typical hubs? Go after places with a lot of Irish connections but that aren't necessarily huge hubs?

I'm thinking like a twice weekly 757 to Edmundton or something like that ?!

Or go after transatlantic low cost carriers and try and cut some interesting deals there.

snotboogie · 21-04-2015 11:01pm

Carnacalla wrote: »

How is Shannon's location ridiculous, explain that? Its right beside Limerick. Cork has actually a worse location, on a hill with a North/South runway.

I've explained it many times. Cork has 400,000+ people within 30 to 45 minutes of its airport. Shannon doesn't get to that number unless you double the commute time. Cork City and suburbs are around 3 times the size of Limerick City and suburbs, if you take in the towns around Cork, which are commutable to the Airport, it's about 4 times the size of Limerick. That's why the location is ridiculous.

SpaceTime wrote: »

I don't think you'll see much progress on flights East bound from Cork or Shannon for a long time other than maybe some scope for maybe for charters if the eastern tourism market grows.

Asian flights aren't as highly competitive as infra European flights so, I can't really see anything going secondary airports. Most of those routes rely on having large, full aircraft or else they're very expensive and not likely to be chasing lower airport charges anyway.

Cork needs to look at places with significant numbers of people who want to fly to the southern part of Ireland too. It needs very tight marketing that coincides with big drives to market the region.

If it's looking at transatlantic maybe specialising in trying to target some point to point flights with smaller aircraft to smaller US and Canadian cities than the typical hubs? Go after places with a lot of Irish connections but that aren't necessarily huge hubs?

I'm thinking like a twice weekly 757 to Edmundton or something like that ?!

Or go after transatlantic low cost carriers and try and cut some interesting deals there.

Ya plus Singapore Airlines and Cathay Pacific would probably baulk at taking a punt at Dublin, never mind Shannon or Cork. You'd have more of a chance with the Chinese Airlines I guess. It's just odd that there is NOTHING going east of the UAE from Ireland. I'm surprised no airline has ever taken a shot at Dublin to Beijing, especially given the relatively short distance, the volume of traffic going through Beijing Capital and the amount of Chinese in Ireland.

Kankan14 · 21-04-2015 11:05pm

snotboogie wrote: »

I've explained it many times. Cork has 400,000+ people within 30 to 45 minutes of its airport. Shannon doesn't get to that number unless you double the commute time. Cork City and suburbs is around 3 times the size of Limerick City and suburbs, if you take in the towns around Cork, which are easily commutable to the Airport, it's about 4 times the size of Limerick. That's why the location is ridiculous.

But isn't Galway and Ennis both within 40 mins of shannon that could make the numbers a little closer?

SpaceTime · 21-04-2015 11:16pm

Kankan14 wrote: »

But isn't Galway and Ennis both within 40 mins of shannon that could make the numbers a little closer?

Not unless they moved Galway. It's currently well over an hour.

JCX BXC · 21-04-2015 11:18pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

Not unless they moved Galway. It's currently well over an hour.

1hr 10mins to Galway, the nearest airport to Galway.

SpaceTime · 21-04-2015 11:27pm

2h07 to Dublin Airport

Kankan14 · 21-04-2015 11:30pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

Not unless they moved Galway. It's currently well over an hour.

Fair enough didnt realise it was a little over an hour. At the same time hardly a million miles away.

JCX BXC · 21-04-2015 11:30pm

SpaceTime wrote: »

2h07 to Dublin Airport

And?

I'm really getting tired of this, its plain trolling at this stage by snotboogie. I won't be responding to any of this location nonsense, its not even relevant.

Glasgow has been removed from sale from the 23rd of October.

pwurple · 22-04-2015 7:08am

SpaceTime wrote: »

Cork needs to look at places with significant numbers of people who want to fly to the southern part of Ireland too. It needs very tight marketing that coincides with big drives to market the region.

I agree it would be great if the market was served, but I'm not sure what mechanisms airports use to arrange new flights. Do they approach airlines, or is it the other way around...

The big employers in Cork are Apple, EMC and the various Pharma places. None of them are currently served by Cork airport, it's a pain in the backside. All that business travel is through shannon or dublin. It is a real shame, as business travel is price insensitive, their priority is suitable times and convenience. Price is not as much of a factor.

West coast US, East coast US and some smaller european locations would cover them nicely.

snotboogie · 22-04-2015 7:23am

Kankan14 wrote: »

But isn't Galway and Ennis both within 40 mins of shannon that could make the numbers a little closer?

Galway is about an hour and 15 minutes away. Ennis only has a population of 20k.

Carnacalla wrote: »

And?

I'm really getting tired of this, its plain trolling at this stage by snotboogie. I won't be responding to any of this location nonsense, its not even relevant.

Glasgow has been removed from sale from the 23rd of October.

What? I have responded to your question how it's nonsense, simply Cork is in a far more populated area. Thats without even touching on the Multinationals in Cork.

JCX BXC · 22-04-2015 8:07am

Galway is an hour and 10mins away, Ennis has 25k, that's what I mean by petty, changing the figure's to suit you. Ennis 25k is without considering an urban area.

Reputable Rog · 22-04-2015 8:43am

Wellpark,Galway was 55 minutes exactly from Coonagh Cross, Limerick the last time I drove it and thats not exceeding the speed limit. Therefore Shannon to Galway takes a lot less time.

corkonion · 22-04-2015 9:13am

My house is eight minutes from Tom's but only 6 on the way back

vkid · 22-04-2015 9:18am

snotboogie wrote: »

Galway is about an hour and 15 minutes away. Ennis only has a population of 20k.
.

I drive it regularly and it never takes 1hr 15 to Galway from Shannon.

draiochtanois · 22-04-2015 9:32am

This post has been deleted.

beer enigma · 22-04-2015 10:35am

Ok enough - I've tried to let this thread run & only recently asked people to refrain from arguments & it seems that holding a civilised conversation is obviously proving too challenging for some.

The Mods are fed up with people contantly reporting each other, so I'm closing it.

Lack of new routes at Cork airport

Comments