A Mere Mention of Abortion.

I am a friend · 16-03-2012 8:49pm

chocolategirl wrote: »

I'm not trying to get sympathy by the way but maybe to say I'm not a total mental case, I haven't used abortion as contraception, I've been on contraception most of my life.

I'd hate me if I was reading this and I'd judge me. I can't believe this is me I'm talking about.

Chocolategirl, you dont come across like you are looking for sympathy and you have opened my blinkered eyes with your post. my heart goes out to you and the hard decisions you have had to make. You made the decision on the basis of your life at each time and you did it with your family's interest at heart so please stop beating yourself up. Sending you good wishes xx

Naggins · 16-03-2012 10:34pm

It's not an easy decision for a woman/couple to make, so I wouldn't judge anyway. There should be better access to the morning after pill and actual sex education in schools, but I would like a better dialogue on this issue. Every EU referenda, we have the usual propaganda perpetuated by those against it (usually conservatives).

Ireland doesn't allow abortions in this country but people still travel to get them done, so why not allow abortions in this country?. People are forcing their beliefs if they don't give the **choice** for people, why not if people are going to get it done across the shore, they will do it. Few children are put up for adoption at the end of the day, are all of ye who are vehemently arguing against this tough decision willing to take in all these babies who would have been aborted? I don't think so.

I'm sick of the arguments peddled by those against the *choice* for it. Particularly on Facebook, I'm noticing a lot of inaccurate information and inconsiderate language peddled by those vehemently against it. Most of those arguing against it, I can't help noticing are middle aged men.

If your pro-life, I understand why but I don't like it when other people restrict what other people can do so I think the choice of it on this island should be there.

I realise this sounded like a rant, but it's a topic that many people have strong opinions on.

southsiderosie · 16-03-2012 10:58pm

IsaMtq wrote: »

The length of time an abortion can be carried out now stands at 24 weeks, this is unbelievable really and definitely needs to be changed.

Link

Did you read the posts on this earlier in the thread? The 24-week point has been reassessed, and given that the chances of survival under 24 weeks are very, very low, the cutoff point was left unchanged. The fact that ONE baby out of thousands survived at that age does not mean that the entire system should be changed.

hattoncracker · 16-03-2012 11:01pm

chocolategirl wrote: »

Hi all,

I've been following this thread with interest as abortion has become a huge isssue for me recently. Normally I wouldn't post but from the last few pages I've felt that I have to say something. I don't expect anyone to understand and I realise this isn't a place for me to pour out my own grief or guilt but I do just want to share and I understand totally any negative comments.

I've had four abortions. I'm 37 years of age.

I had my first abortion when I as 16. I was at the age when I took risks but thought I'd be ok however I became pregnant. For ages I refused to even believe I was pregnant. My sister had just had a baby and there was absolute murder going on in the house and my family were devastated. I couldn't see any othr way but to have an abortion for everyones sake. I found out how to make the arrangements and I went. I'd never even really been on a bus on my own before and I'd never been on a plane. I went on my own and I cried buckets. I bled so badly at the clinic that they thought they might not be able to let me out. At the airport I fainted and the flight was delayed 10 hours. My jeans were bloodstained. I was totally hysterical and an older couple looked after me. I was so scared of my parents finding out.

Afterwards I was devastated and I stayed that way until I had my son at 19. I became pregnant with him on purpose to combat the crippling grief I felt over losing my baby. To me it really was a loss even though I'd had an abortion.

Two years later I was on the pill and became pregnant. I was young and on my own with a small child so again I had to make the trip. I didn't feel I had any other choice. It was a horrible feeling of being trapped and very very scary.

Another three years later after being on the Depo Provera I became pregnant for a fourth time. I decided to give my body a break from the Depo and had just missed a shot by two weeks (I had not even had a period yet) and I became pregnant again. Again finding myself in the same situation I had another abortion, by now my third.

I'm not going into huge detail about how I felt on these last two occasions but upset, devastated, frightened and traumatised are some words. And of course hating myself and I'm a horrible murdering person. On these two occasions I had begged people for help, to let me stay with them or find me somewhere to stay so I could have these children and give them up for adoption but there was noone.

Many years later (well 13) I thought I'd put all that behind me. Of course looking back I dont' exactly like myself and in ways am glad that there's no abortion in Ireland because at least the trauma and upset of having to wait and be tormented has made me feel in some way better because I feel I should be suffering. Anyway I took a bit of a risk in Januray ( and yes I know with me being as fertile as I am, I shouldn't have) but I was worried the next day so went and got the morning after pill. It didn't work and I became pregnant. My job and my home are gone so I have absolutely nothing to offer a child and also I have a 17 year old boy who would be gutted if I suddenly became pregnant. I had another abortion. If I didn't have a child I would have killed myself.

I thought all this was behind me, I've been so careful for years and years and I thought taking the morning after pill was the wise thing to do. I absolutely hate myself. I love children and had hoped to meet someone and have a little girl, the dream you know, all the bad stuff beind me and being able to enjoy a pregnancy but no instead this absolute nightmare again. I havent' stopped shaking since the day I found out I was pregnant and I've had a few total breakdowns. I'm not trying to get sympathy by the way but maybe to say I'm not a total mental case, I haven't used abortion as contraception, I've been on contraception most of my life.

I'd hate me if I was reading this and I'd judge me. I can't believe this is me I'm talking about.

Chocolategirl, you don't have to feel bad, and please don't hate yourself, no one here does I can assure you. I'm in the recovery phase after one myself, and like you, nothing really hit me til the day I was due.
I have been having counselling, and the one thing I have learned is that I can't go back to the way I was before all this happened. I need to move forward, accept who I am and then learn to love myself again. It takes time and healing, but I know you can do it.

hattoncracker · 16-03-2012 11:10pm

Also, guys, while I may not have been brave enough to come out and say it in the first post on this thread, I did share my story on it, and the only reason I did is because of the women who were brave enough to share their stories.

If even one woman feels that reading these messages has helped them feel less alone, then it was worth it to me. Watching this thread, and hearing these women has helped me deal immensely with my own decision.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart, ladies.

chocolategirl · 17-03-2012 1:57am

I am a friend wrote: »

Chocolategirl, you dont come across like you are looking for sympathy and you have opened my blinkered eyes with your post. my heart goes out to you and the hard decisions you have had to make. You made the decision on the basis of your life at each time and you did it with your family's interest at heart so please stop beating yourself up. Sending you good wishes xx

Thank you so much for your very kind words. I'm grieving at the moment which is really difficult because I don't have any right to grieve. I am though all the same.

I just wanted to tell my story as someone who has had more than one abortion. Four though, I'm so utterly ashamed and horrified.

I've read this thread and I think everyone has been amazing in it, extremely tolerant of each other and compassionate to others even when they personally would never have an abortion themselves. It makes a change from some raging debates.

howsyourtusk · 17-03-2012 1:58am

But you shouldn't be ashamed. I don't judge you and there are so many people out there who don't. Take care

eviltwin · 17-03-2012 2:41pm

hattoncracker wrote: »

Also, guys, while I may not have been brave enough to come out and say it in the first post on this thread, I did share my story on it, and the only reason I did is because of the women who were brave enough to share their stories.

If even one woman feels that reading these messages has helped them feel less alone, then it was worth it to me. Watching this thread, and hearing these women has helped me deal immensely with my own decision.

Thank you from the bottom of my heart, ladies.

Couldn't have said it better myself. I find sharing my story helpful and I know reading the stories of others helps me too. It is so easy to feel alone when you have had an abortion so even just one story really reassures me that I am not some kind of monster, that bad things can happen to good people.

We made the best decisions we could at the time no should ever condemn us for that. An abortion is one day out of your life and that one day does not define you, you are so much more.

BDR · 29-03-2012 1:02pm

Amazing article in the Irish Times about peoples experiences of abortion if anyone wants to take a look.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/weekend/2012/0324/1224313801571.html

Morag · 29-03-2012 1:17pm

A lady called Marie who spoke to Ray Darcy about having to travel after being old the baby she was expecting had a rare condition which was ' not compatible with life'.

http://media.todayfm.com/podcast/61162/?uniqueID=37719

ziggy23 · 30-03-2012 9:38am

I couldn't go through with an abortion myself. I had an unplanned pregnancy myself but the thought never crossed my mind BUT I do believe everyone should have a choice and yes it should be legalised in this country. I never see the pro-lifers outside the GPO anymore has this been stopped? I remember being a kid and getting really upset walking by those pictures. Disgraceful:mad:

hattoncracker · 30-03-2012 9:55pm

Sharrow wrote: »

A lady called Marie who spoke to Ray Darcy about having to travel after being old the baby she was expecting had a rare condition which was ' not compatible with life'.

http://media.todayfm.com/podcast/61162/?uniqueID=37719

I was listening to this on the radio in work, I felt physically sick for the poor woman.. It's just such an awful experience, leaving everyone behind and having to travel to an unfamiliar area, when this experience is one of the hardest of your life as it is.

whitemocha · 31-03-2012 10:16am

hattoncracker wrote: »

I was listening to this on the radio in work, I felt physically sick for the poor woman.. It's just such an awful experience, leaving everyone behind and having to travel to an unfamiliar area, when this experience is one of the hardest of your life as it is.

that was me and yes it was terrible but hopefully the law will change here i have written to 208 TD,s with my story and there will be a discussion in the Dail 18 19 of April.

I am so sorry for all of you that have been through this Ireland needs to change and every women given the choice.

chocolategirl · 31-03-2012 11:38pm

I totally agree whitemocha.

whitemocha · 31-03-2012 11:59pm

i know it wont be a full legal abortion country but a least its a start so hopefully this will be a start of changes to come.
Nobody should ever judge someone else unless they walk a mile in there shoes. And those of you concerned that abortion is a way of conterception is just riduclous it is the most traumatic heatbreakibg descion any women will ever make.
There is a petition if any of you would like to sign it is to legeslate the X bill which was passed 20 years ago but not passed.

Again so so sorry for all of you that have had to travel for the treament you needed

http://www.change.org/petitions/the-irish-government-legislate-for-the-x-case-before-the-end-of-2012#

chocolategirl · 01-04-2012 5:54pm

I don't know if anyone was watching the film Vera Drake last night on TG4. It portrayed brilliantly the utter despair of women who find themselves with a crisis pregnancy and no other way out.

hattoncracker · 02-04-2012 11:00pm

chocolategirl wrote: »

I don't know if anyone was watching the film Vera Drake last night on TG4. It portrayed brilliantly the utter despair of women who find themselves with a crisis pregnancy and no other way out.

I must actually watch that one, I've been meaning to.

Bambii_ · 04-04-2012 4:00pm

I'm Pro-choice. I think abortion should be legalized in Ireland so the option is there for woman who want one. Personally I don't think I would be capable of having an abortion, but I wouldn't judge someone for having one. It's their choice and if they feel that having an abortion is the best for herself, then who am I to tell her she's wrong?

Bambii_ · 04-04-2012 4:02pm

chocolategirl wrote: »

I don't know if anyone was watching the film Vera Drake last night on TG4. It portrayed brilliantly the utter despair of women who find themselves with a crisis pregnancy and no other way out.

It puts across the extent some people would go to just to do what they think is best for themselves. The film is emotionally moving and a work of art, in my opinion.

Tipsygypsy · 06-04-2012 10:53pm

Sharrow wrote: »

A lady called Marie who spoke to Ray Darcy about having to travel after being old the baby she was expecting had a rare condition which was ' not compatible with life'.

http://media.todayfm.com/podcast/61162/?uniqueID=37719[/QUOTE]

Following on from this storey, there is a facebook page set up to work towards making termination for medical reasons available in Ireland. Its at http://www.facebook.com/#!/MakeTerminationForMedicalReasonsAvailableInIreland

All support would be gratefully received.

iguana · 18-04-2012 2:10pm

Another article in the Times about the women who had abortions due to their babies' medical conditions and will be meeting with TD's this week about it.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2012/0417/1224314815319.html?via=mr

meganj · 18-04-2012 9:38pm

iguana wrote: »

Another article in the Times about the women who had abortions due to their babies' medical conditions and will be meeting with TD's this week about it.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/features/2012/0417/1224314815319.html?via=mr

According yo The Journal (sorry no link, tablet + dolphin = awkwardness) the government have said they will not be voting for the bill tomorrow as they're waiting for the results of their 'expert group' which could take over a year.

Seems more likely they don't want to take a sip from the potentially poisoned chalice before the vote on the fiscal treaty.

lilmissprincess · 18-04-2012 9:43pm

Makes me extremely angry that Labour are going back on what was said only last weekend at Conference about making moves towards legislation.... *scream*

Morag · 18-04-2012 9:54pm

Why do we even have a supreme court when we ignore it's rulings for 20 years?

LegacyUser · 18-04-2012 10:00pm

hattoncracker wrote: »

I'm posting this in the Ladies Lounge because I want a female perspective on this.

Now I'm respectful of all choices in life, but I really don't understand how other people can't be.

Why is it the mere mention of abortion ends with some people just totally loosing it? I know it's a sensitive subject, and if you don't agree with it then fine.

I have a friend who considered, but didn't have an abortion. She lost the baby at 13 weeks, and one of her friends who knew that she had considered it and is very pro life told her it was karma, and that she deserved to loose it, and that she and her bf were murderers.

I have had people in real life and on this forum jump down my throat because I believe that abortion should be legalised in this country and that every woman should have the right to it if she wants to. I believe that is traumatic as an experience, made all the more so because you can never tell anyone what you went through, and you have to travel out of the country for it.

I'm just wondering, what would you say if you met someone who openly told you she had an abortion because she wasn't capable of raising a child and didn't want to give up her job, education, etc? Would you think she was a horrible person? Or would you be able to look past her actions and not judge her on it?

I myself had to have one due to not being financially stable, young and not long with my boyfriend. And it was very traumatic. I LOVE kids, I am such a maternal person, but I had to think of me and the baby. I deserve the life i've been working very hard for the past 4 years to achieve, my baby deserves to have ALL it's needs met, and it's want's also. It doesn't deserve a mum who is never there and can barely provide for it and who is probably a single parent. Plenty of people are single parents and do an amazing job - that's not my issue, I just wouldn't have been able to care for it despite wanting to.
So I went to the UK, had the abortion and was very very sad about it until recently. Just starting to come to terms with it after 6 months. So tbh people can think what they like, but its not a decision made on a whim and never thought of again, because you think of it every day and run the "what if" scenarios in your head.

iguana · 18-04-2012 10:02pm

Reading those stories I feel that if I ever find myself in the position of those women, I would go to the UK and never come back. They are so brave to be able to stay in this country and fight for this issue.

chocolategirl · 18-04-2012 10:26pm

un'reg'd you sound like a very good person. And yes you DO deserve the life you've worked for and all that life has to offer. You've been through alot and have had to be very brave so be good to you.

I think those women who came forward are amazing and so brave. Their stories are absolutely heartbreaking and its horrific what they've had to go through. Please God let us come to a more compassionate society and one where women can speak without being stigmatised because there's so many suffering. Especially for women in these situations where their children are suffering or will not live outside the womb. I can't even imagine what they are going through.

ilikepears · 18-04-2012 10:45pm

These women are so brave. Not only have they recently had to travel to the Uk for an abortion and are dealing from the consequences of this such as grieving for the loss of a baby that they wanted. They are also coming together to fight for the right of other women who find themselves in the same situation as themselves.
This government makes me so mad that they keep delaying introducing legislation to allow for these women to have an abortion here in their own country.
I have traveled to the UK for terminating an unwanted pregnancy. In a way I'm glad that I had to outside the country. It was almost like I could disassociate from the experience easier as it hadn't happened in my own country. its kinda hard to explain. I have never told anyone outside of my immediate family about the abortion. I doubt I ever will. I feel Irish people still are very judgmental about those who have abortions.
I know these women are different from my situation in that I chose to do what I did but they didn't. It most be so difficult to terminate a pregnancy of a child that you so badly wanted.
The worse thing about going to a different country was the hanging around the city after you had the abortion. I didn't want to stay in that city overnight just wanted to go home to bed. But i still had to hang around walking aimlessly for 5 hours.
When I found out I was pregnant I was devastated. I felt so scared. I felt the life drain out of my body. Before if there was a referendum on whether abortion should be introduced I don't think I would have voted. I would have felt that if I voted yes then I would of had blood on my hands. I also wouldn't have voted no because I didn't think I had the right to stop others from getting an abortion. I know if I hadn't the option to go to get a legal then I would of tried the illegal route.
I know it sounds horrible to say but I just wanted it out of me. I didn't feel any attachment or connection to it.
I went to marie stopes and I honestly think they helped me emotionally so much. There was about a week and a half between I found out I was pregnant and booking the termination. During that time I was like a zombie. All I did was lie down on the couch and stare at the ceiling. I was so depressed. i have never felt that bad in my life. I cried. I was frustrated. I regretted the night I got pregnant. I thought of the other options besides a termination. I realised though that I could never have this baby. I personally feel I wouldn't have been able to give a baby an adequate standard of life. I wasn't in a relationship with the dad which made a huge difference to me.
I thought that for me a termination was the best option. I even thought I'd have to go to the doctor for anti-depressants afterwards. However then I rang marie stopes. To talk to a non-judgmental person (i think they are nurses though I'm not sure) and have them be so nice to me was unreal. I actually felt that I wasn't this evil person who was killing a child.
If it becomes legal here the one thing I hope is that women can get terminations without judgement. If i had gone to marie stopes and they had made me feel bad for what I was doing I honestly feel it would have added greatly to my problems.
A woman facing a termination is in such a vulnerable position. In this country we have to protect the vulnerable in our society. Not send them to other countries and act that Irish women do not have abortions. We do.

Sorry for the long jumbled up post.

eviltwin · 19-04-2012 2:16pm

I've been avoiding the media like the plague today. The debate in the Dail today is just too hard. All the prolifers come out of the woodwork and just make me feel like ****.

I am so in awe of those women for fighting this, I think its a disgrace its been left hanging - again. All the courage it took for them to go public, talk to the radio, tv etc and its just been put on the back burner like it doesn't matter. I hope they don't feel they have failed. They have done so much.

I just feel I suppose that its created a two tier idea of abortion, that women like the majority who have other reasons for taking the trip are being ignored and treated like our pregnancies were just hassles that we didn't give much thought to ending. We have had to endure our own trauma and I am scared that will be forgotten .

Keep fighting ladies cause someone somewhere will eventually have to listen. You are brilliant xx

hattoncracker · 19-04-2012 2:36pm

I got so frustrated reading the news online last night that I wrote an email to the taoiseach....

I feel a bit silly for doing it, I wish I could do more...

Piste · 19-04-2012 5:13pm

So I see today's proposed legislation has been defeated. I'm not sure what to think of it, one one hand abortion is such a complex, nuanced topic, that legislating for it should probably wait until the report of the working group comes back, so we know that research and thought has gone into recommendations. On the other hand, it's easy to take a cynical view and say that by waiting for the expert group report to come back the government are just putting off taking a sip from the potentially poisoned chalice. Does anyone know where I could find the wording of today's proposed legislation by any chance?

Tipsygypsy · 19-04-2012 5:25pm

Piste, link to proposed bill:

http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2012/1012/b1012d.pdf

19-04-2012 5:30pm

Piste wrote: »

So I see today's proposed legislation has been defeated. I'm not sure what to think of it, one one hand abortion is such a complex, nuanced topic, that legislating for it should probably wait until the report of the working group comes back, so we know that research and thought has gone into recommendations. On the other hand, it's easy to take a cynical view and say that by waiting for the expert group report to come back the government are just putting off taking a sip from the potentially poisoned chalice. Does anyone know where I could find the wording of today's proposed legislation by any chance?

I posted this before, but to give some context to waiting for the "expert group":

1998: The Government establish an Inter-departmental Working Group on Abortion supervised by a cabinet sub-committee

1999 (September): Green Paper on Abortion published. Seven possible options are outlined.

2000 (May, June, July): Interested parties and organisations, including representatives from the medical profession, special interest groups and faith groups, are invited to address the All-Party Oireachtas Committee.

2000 (November): All-Party Oireachtas Committee publishes its report. After nearly 12 months, the committee fails to reach a consensus outlining three different approaches, reflecting the views of Labour, Fine Gael and Fianna Fáil.

2000 (November): A Cabinet subcommittee on abortion convenes, chaired by the Minister for Health, Mr Martin. This subcommittee is to eventually make a recommendation to the Government.

Source: http://www.irishtimes.com/focus/abortion/issues/chronology.htm

The court [European Court of Human Rights] has already criticised the State for failing to act on recommendations of the three previous government committees that have already considered Ireland’s regulation of abortion,” chief executive of the association Niall Behan said.

Source: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2011/0915/1224304143020.html

...the Green Paper 1999 noted that...
...The political assessment of that Paper by the Committee on the Constitution led to the Fifth Progress Report which found that...

Despite therefore the recognition by those bodies that further legal clarity was required as regards lawful abortions in Ireland, no agreement was reached on any reform proposals, no legislation and/or constitutional referenda were proposed and the Government confirmed to the Court that no legislative reform was envisaged.

Source - ECHR ruling on the ABC case: http://www.bailii.org/eu/cases/ECHR/2010/2032.html#para265

I wouldn't hold my breath on the Irish goverment's expediency in this matter, "expert" group or not

Piste · 19-04-2012 5:34pm

That's a shame they didn't act on the recommendations of the previous group. Will the findings of this group be publically published?

Bobbity · 19-04-2012 11:39pm

I feel that it is ultimately the ladies choice. I don't see how suits & white collars can decide the best interests of any pregnant lady. It's not an easy decision to make, yes, initially there's relief, but also a huge amount of guilt that will engulf you. Why should someone be made to feel guilty or answerable to others because of their choice. It's not just single girls that head across the water, a lot of well heeled ladies travel too. It's none of anyone else's business, and I wish pro-lifers would get a life and mind their own business. Everytime I hear the name "pro lifer", I think blue rinse brigade!
Live and let live!

King of Kings · 20-04-2012 7:38am

i've had somebody go to england and abort my kid - not a pleasant thing. Can't say it affects me too much now , although I'd do get hot under the collar when people ( like a previous poster) suggest it's a women's body and she can do what she likes with it.
It's not that simple and it's stupid to think it is.

I would have always been pro-life and still am.

I've had a few friends who have had abortions - varying circumstances.

I'll admit i judged a few , in my mind not in an overt screaming "murderer" at them way, as they had abortions for lifestyle reason "it's not the right time" kinda thing when in reality it was they feared their social lives would be doomed. I saw them differently after to be honest.

I've had another friend who recently had an abortion for medical reasons - she has my full support and sympathy and nothing less than 100% of it.

It depends on each circumstances. Everybody has a reason for doing it - some of them are selfish and some are not.

Anybody who screams "murderer" and at somebody is an idiot likewise people who want to spit at pro-life people are idiots too.

It's possible to disagree with somebody's decision in their lives and not hate them (or abuse them)

Bobbity wrote: »

Everytime I hear the name "pro lifer", I think blue rinse brigade!
Live and let live!

I'm only 34 and I look 27

lazygal · 20-04-2012 8:40am

King of Kings wrote: »

I would have always been pro-life and still am.

Pro life is an utterly meaningless phrase. Who isn't pro life? Pro death people? Lazy catch all term that people who want to deny women the right to choose whether to proceed with a pregnancy use to make it sound like they care. Most so called pro life people are pro pregnancy-when the kid arrives they wash their hands of it, and generally bleat about the payments given to single parents and how women get pregnant to get a house.

King of Kings · 20-04-2012 9:28am

lazygal wrote: »

Pro life is an utterly meaningless phrase. Who isn't pro life? Pro death people? Lazy catch all term that people who want to deny women the right to choose whether to proceed with a pregnancy use to make it sound like they care.
.

actually I agree - I'm anti abortion not pro-life ,i don't like the label but the label is common used grouping so I don't see as an essential fight.

lazygal wrote: »

Most so called pro life people are pro pregnancy-when the kid arrives they wash their hands of it, and generally bleat about the payments given to single parents and how women get pregnant to get a house.

.[/QUOTE]

that's a lazy analogy. It's also stupid.
You are taking an extreme view - only a minor of anti-abortion people are of that view.
You get nuts on all sides.

lazygal · 20-04-2012 9:29am

King of Kings wrote: »

actually I agree - I'm anti abortion not pro-life ,i don't like the label but the label is common used grouping so I don't see as an essential fight.

.

that's a lazy analogy. It's also stupid.
You are taking an extreme view - only a minor of anti-abortion people are of that view.
You get nuts on all sides.[/QUOTE]

So you're going to take in all the unwanted children women are forced to bear and raise them yourself?

King of Kings · 20-04-2012 10:25am

So you're going to take in all the unwanted children women are forced to bear and raise them yourself?[/QUOTE]

yes - as a tax payer I would like the state to contribute.

Since you are so vehemently against my position - I'd like to see you comment on my personal circumstances.

Do you think my ex wife was within her rights to do what she did?
Do I have grounds for being aggrieved or am I just selfish for want "to force" her carry the baby.
Am I the bad guy here?
The question may seem agrressive but it's not - I'm just intrigued to know

Nymeria · 20-04-2012 10:35am

King of Kings wrote: »

i've had somebody go to england and abort my kid - not a pleasant thing.

I'm sure it wasn't a barrell of fun for her either.

it's a women's body and she can do what she likes with it.
It's not that simple and it's stupid to think it is.

Equally stupid is the notion that you should have absolute control over whether or not another person is forced to carry an unwanted child for 9 months, along with the physical, mental and emotional toll that brings. I agree that fathers should have a say to a point, however ultimately it IS her body and bodily autonomy should be absolute.

I've had a few friends who have had abortions - varying circumstances.

The point here is that you don't know the full circumstances, and you probably never will. How can you possibly know all thats going on in their head and their heart at a time like that.

I'll admit i judged a few , in my mind not in an overt screaming "murderer" at them way, as they had abortions for lifestyle reason "it's not the right time" kinda thing when in reality it was they feared their social lives would be doomed. I saw them differently after to be honest.

I've had another friend who recently had an abortion for medical reasons - she has my full support and sympathy and nothing less than 100% of it.

In both situations they went through the same procedure, so why are you able to give your support to one and not to another??

This bit is the one that makes me growl the most...so as long as they had your approval that their circumstances were horrific enough, then they should be allowed to have one, albeit grudgingly. Thats a ridiculous double standard we seem to be hearing about lately - as long as the woman is shamed and suffering enough then it's allowed. It's not up to you to decide what is 'selfish' in other people's bodily choices.
As I read someone say on this site before; it's not then about the feotus, its about the woman, and her level of percieved fault and thus her level of 'shame' or suffering to be endured.
If you percieve the reasons to something 'trivial' like lifestyle choices then thats a no no. The truth is you don't know their full circumstances, only what they tell you.

I'm only 34 and I look 27

You sound about 80.

Nymeria · 20-04-2012 10:48am

yes - as a tax payer I would like the state to contribute.

So, in essence your answer is no. Being ok with the state looking after them is not the same things as taking on a child, being responsible for them financially, emotionally and otherwise, which I believe was the original question.

Since you are so vehemently against my position - I'd like to see you comment on my personal circumstances.

Do you think my ex wife was within her rights to do what she did?
Do I have grounds for being aggrieved or am I just selfish for want "to force" her carry the baby.
Am I the bad guy here?
The question may seem agrressive but it's not - I'm just intrigued to know

Of course you have the right to be annoyed or upset, that sounds like a terribly sad situation where you wanted the child and she didn't. However, I stand by the argument that she should not be made to carry a child that she does not want, however heartbreaking that may be for you.

Some women are ok with carrying a child and giving it up for adoption, however this is not the blanket answer for all unwanted pregnancies.

King of Kings · 20-04-2012 10:52am

Nymeria wrote: »

I'm sure it wasn't a barrell of fun for her either.

.

I'm assume so - we didn't speak too much about it after.

Nymeria wrote: »

Equally stupid is the notion that you should have absolute control over whether or not another person is forced to carry an unwanted child for 9 months, along with the physical, mental and emotional toll that brings. I agree that fathers should have a say to a point, however ultimately it IS her body and bodily autonomy should be absolute.
.

We;ll disagree on this .

Nymeria wrote: »

The point here is that you don't know the full circumstances, and you probably never will. How can you possibly know all thats going on in their head and their heart at a time like that.

.

we'll they told me. In particular two of them told me everything in so much as they could articulate everything.

In both situations they went through the same procedure, so why are you able to give your support to one and not to another??

Nymeria wrote: »

This bit is the one that makes me growl the most...so as long as they had your approval that their circumstances were horrific enough, then they should be allowed to have one, albeit grudgingly. Thats a ridiculous double standard we seem to be hearing about lately - as long as the woman is shamed and suffering enough then it's allowed. It's not up to you to decide what is 'selfish' in other people's bodily choices.
As I read someone say on this site before; it's not then about the feotus, its about the woman, and her level of percieved fault and thus her level of 'shame' or suffering to be endured.
If you percieve the reasons to something 'trivial' like lifestyle choices then thats a no no. The truth is you don't know their full circumstances, only what they tell you.
.

This is a complete distorting of what I said - so you either read it wrong, picked it up wrong or twisted for an agenda. Either way that's not what I said. Nobody was shamed - where did you pick this up from.

Nymeria wrote: »

You sound about 80.

that's cos I've lived a bit - but I don't think that's what you meant.
I think your comment is quite mean.
Have you considered how pro-choice 80 year olds feel about being lumped in with me?

Ickle Magoo · 20-04-2012 10:55am

I don't think you're a bad guy King of Kings - pregnancy termination is emotive, heart-breaking, thought-provoking and stressful...for everyone involved. There are real people left with the very real consequences of making decisions about pregnancies on both sides - I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise.

The crux of the issue is that unfortunately pregnancy/abortion is one of those things where there is just is no compromise...you either do it or you don't. Until there is a way to hand gestational development over to which-ever party wishes it then the arguments against abortion are going to be viewed as proposals for forced pregnancy and lots of people get grossly offended/angered at the idea of over-ruling the basic bodily rights given to everyone else in every other situation as standard and demoting women to nothing more than the role of incubators irrespective or even despite the woman's own wishes to carry the pregnancy.

There is no way to legislate or discuss a world-wide issue based on individual cases and the heart-ache, emotion and strong feelings on either side makes this an almost impossible discussion to have in generalities...because imo both sides are right. Yes it's horribly unfair to force women to be pregnant - and yes it's horribly unfair that men get no choice in someone aborting their child...it's one of those horrible situations when, for me anyway, it's a case of trying to figure out which is least unfair - rather than which is fair.

All the best you.

Nymeria · 20-04-2012 11:03am

We;ll disagree on this.

Would you agree to another person having control over your body, and forcing you to go through with a medical procedure that you didn't agree with?

This is a complete distorting of what I said - so you either read it wrong, picked it up wrong or twisted for an agenda. Either way that's not what I said. Nobody was shamed - where did you pick this up from.

I shall try again. Both parties went though with the same procedure, and yet, by your own admission, you judged one person, and fully supported 100% the other. The only difference from what I could gather was their reason for termination, which in one case was medically necessary, and in another case was for what you termed 'lifestlye choices'. This is the disparity I was referring to. You judged one person because their reasons didn't live up to your standards of what should be acceptable. I will say again, it's not up to you to decide what is 'selfish' in other people's bodily choices.

Wibbs · 20-04-2012 12:12pm

While this is an emotive and divisive subject can we keep things civil please. All friends here

I am a friend · 20-04-2012 12:14pm

Bobbity wrote: »

Live and let live!

But not for the baby obviously

I am a female and have just had a baby and dont think it was my right to abort the baby given it was a product of both my partner and i and his view had to come into it.

If I didnt want the baby I would have had it solely on the basis he would take over full responsibility for it once born. I dont think i had the right, even though it was my body to abort his baby...

lazygal · 20-04-2012 12:17pm

I am a friend wrote: »

But not for the baby obviously

I am a female and have just had a baby and dont think it was my right to abort the baby given it was a product of both my partner and i and his view had to come into it.

If I didnt want the baby I would have had it solely on the basis he would take over full responsibility for it once born. I dont think i had the right, even though it was my body to abort his baby...

That was your choice.

Choice being the operative word.

If a woman became pregnant through rape and the rapist wanted the child would you think it's ok for him to make such a demand?

Tea 1000 · 20-04-2012 12:18pm

Nymeria wrote: »

I shall try again. Both parties went though with the same procedure, and yet, by your own admission, you judged one person, and fully supported 100% the other. The only difference from what I could gather was their reason for termination, which in one case was medically necessary, and in another case was for what you termed 'lifestlye choices'. This is the disparity I was referring to. You judged one person because their reasons didn't live up to your standards of what should be acceptable. I will say again, it's not up to you to decide what is 'selfish' in other people's bodily choices.

The point he is making is that her bodily choice was affecting a second human life, and not just her own. You're on the side that her life as a fully formed adult should override the right of the developing life, he is of the opinion that the developing life has equal right to life.
Your attempt to try to belittle his opinion on each different case is similar to belittling someone who splits their opinion on two people who killed an adult, one killed cause they didn't like the person near them, the other was in self defense. (I'm not comparing his two specific cases to these two examples, I'm proposing a point of view from someone who thinks both cases are wrong, but one is reconcilable).

hattoncracker · 20-04-2012 12:19pm

I am a friend wrote: »

Bobbity wrote: »

Live and let live!

But not for the baby obviously

I am a female and have just had a baby and dont think it was my right to abort the baby given it was a product of both my partner and i and his view had to come into it.

If I didnt want the baby I would have had it solely on the basis he would take over full responsibility for it once born.

Congratulations on the birth of your child, but this is not the thread for debating for or against abortion.. I don't want any fighting over it because you're just dragging everything off topic.

A Mere Mention of Abortion.

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