Bilingual signs

nordydan · 09-05-2006 3:07pm #1

What should we do with the languages on road signs??

Keedowah · 09-05-2006 3:12pm

Keep English and Irish on them.

SeanW · 09-05-2006 3:59pm

The purpose of a roadsign is to INFORM. Nothing else. The addition of the Irish language to roadsigns is an antiquated DeVelera-esque "Hey, Look everyone, We're not Brits" statement and I'd have hoped we'd have moved on from that by now.

county · 09-05-2006 4:01pm

Keedowah wrote:

Keep English and Irish on them.

agreed,common sense imo

Keedowah · 09-05-2006 4:05pm

The purpose of a roadsign is to INFORM. Nothing else. The addition of the Irish language to roadsigns is an antiquated DeVelera-esque "Hey, Look everyone, We're not Brits" statement and I'd have hoped we'd have moved on from that by now.

If the purpose is to inform - then surely it should have both names on it. I think that outside of the Gaeltacht it should be English in Large letters with Irish below in small letters. And the opposite in the Gaeltacht.

Believe it or not - people do know/use the irish name for places. And wouldn't it help people who are learning the language? I.E. leaving cert students?

NavanJunction1 · 09-05-2006 4:35pm

SeanW wrote:

"Hey, Look everyone, We're not Brits"

That isn't fair or accurate. Not every Gaelic speaker lives in the Gaeltacht, and most definitly not all Gaelic speakers are interested in politics.

It's a choice. I don't define myself in relation to "the brits", though I can understand why some might on some parts of the island.

I consider myself Irish and European, and Gaelic as the European language which is native to this island.

The choice with our road signs is that you can read them in whichever language you choose. I would never dream of calling for the removal of English language signs in the Galltacht.

For the record I studied English as a single subject in College.

I have no problem with English or literature in English. I am able to see English for what it is - just a language.

But Gaelic is this island's native language even if it is not as widely spoken as it once was, and even if it is endangered in places.

And whilst there is sufficient interest and ability to read our bilingual signs then there is no question but that that bilinguality should be retained.

Would you consider Enda Kenny a de Valera type?

Keedowah · 09-05-2006 4:40pm

Spot on NavanJunction1

murphaph · 09-05-2006 5:10pm

Do the same as other multi-lingual EU states. Sign in the local language only. Easy peasy. Switzerland and Belgium being prime examples of how to do it right. Switzerland wouldn't dream of including all four official languages on all signs, why that'd be crazy, wouldn't it.

adonis · 09-05-2006 5:14pm

do what the catalans do in barcelona.
Delete all signs of the imperial ruler and replace them with the native language, which in our case is Irish...
Is Ceannanas the only town in ireland to keep its real name?

murphaph · 09-05-2006 5:33pm

adonis wrote:

do what the catalans do in barcelona.
Delete all signs of the imperial ruler and replace them with the native language, which in our case is Irish...

.....he writes as Bearla :rolleyes:

adonis wrote:

Is Ceannanas the only town in ireland to keep its real name?

Muine Beag, An Rath etc. What they all have in common is that practically nobody who lives in these places refers to them this way! I went out with a girl from Kells and that's how everyone in the town refers to it.

adonis · 09-05-2006 5:53pm

i write in english, the point being?
i could write in a couple of other different languages if u like....pero no puedes entender nada...
also we are talking about street signs and not what language the nation speaks...why not put them all in irish?
any other european country (in the world) would put the street signs in their original language...

SeanW · 09-05-2006 6:04pm

For whom? How many people speak Irish as their first language?

Any other country would put roadsigns in the language that the people of that region speak. Your suggestion that all roadsigns should be As Gaeilge only is crazy.

adonis · 09-05-2006 6:10pm

the catalans put the signs back up in catalan directly after franco's death...they hadnt been speaking catalan for a long time, and spanish is their first language...so why are their signs in catalan?
As irish is our first language it should be on the roadsigns as the first language, not subservient to some imperialst tongue.
its not just about the majority of people speaking a certain language in a region. Its also about keeping a language, and with it a culture alive.

murphaph · 09-05-2006 6:21pm

adonis wrote:

i write in english, the point being?

The point is that you write here in English so that you may be universally understood on this forum. That says more about our use of language than anything else.

adonis wrote:

i could write in a couple of other different languages if u like....pero no puedes entender nada...

Well done. Have a gold star. Totally irrelevant of course.

adonis wrote:

also we are talking about street signs and not what language the nation speaks...why not put them all in irish?

Erm, because nations (with any sense) erect signage in the language that the majority of it's people speaks as a first language.

adonis wrote:

any other european country (in the world) would put the street signs in their original language...

Hmmm, last time I drove in Italy I don't remember seeing much by way of Latin signage :rolleyes:

Afuera · 09-05-2006 6:42pm

adonis wrote:

...they hadnt been speaking catalan for a long time, and spanish is their first language...so why are their signs in catalan?

Actually the Catalans were speaking Catalan even during Franco's time. The fact that it was banned in public did nothing to stop friends and family using it amongst themselves but the written language suffered a lot during this time. To this day many Catalans are terrible at writing in their own language.

Besides that though maybe the Catalan example isn't the best one to take for comparsion. I mean there's not a whole lot of difference between Girona or Gerona now is there? Whereas the difference between "Baile Atha Cliatha" and "Dublin" is more than slight.

spacetweek · 09-05-2006 8:56pm

You don't choose a language for things like road signs based on politics or some vague aspiration, you do it in the most practical way, which means using the language of daily life. In Ireland, this is nearly always English. I think Gaeligedóirs are just desperate to see their language written somewhere.

ardmacha · 09-05-2006 9:19pm

This country has a rich heritage of Irish placenames, even those of us who predominately speak English are enriched by their presence on roadsigns. One hopes the present arrangements will shortly be extended to those parts of the country with the greatest predominance of Gaelic placenames, but where colonial rule means that the original names cannot appear on signs.

NavanJunction1 · 09-05-2006 9:26pm

ardmacha wrote:

where colonial rule means that the original names cannot appear on signs.

Except in Blackwatertown..:)

adonis · 09-05-2006 9:55pm

murphaph wrote:

The point is that you write here in English so that you may be universally understood on this forum. That says more about our use of language than anything else.

Well done. Have a gold star. Totally irrelevant of course.

Erm, because nations (with any sense) erect signage in the language that the majority of it's people speaks as a first language.

Hmmm, last time I drove in Italy I don't remember seeing much by way of Latin signage :rolleyes:

i meant their official language, and not some other imposed language...
people jsut get used to the gaelic names, thats all...and we do have a very rich heritage of place names and names in general, which is being eroded and lost due to the "translation" into english..So put them with Irish first and english second...why cant people be proud of their language?

Plus i do think that catalan is a good example; we were banned from speaking our language as they were... we kept it going as they did, there are other examples in the irish language; Corcaigh - Cork, Ciarrai - Kerry
So there isnt that much difference, you chose the polar oppostie with dublin and baile atha cliath...

Maskhadov · 09-05-2006 10:14pm

Support the irish language !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Use it EVERYWHERE (with english of course)

murphaph · 09-05-2006 10:55pm

adonis wrote:

i meant their official language, and not some other imposed language...

I don't feel that English was imposed on me, it's the language my parents spoke to me when I was a nipper and so I learned it as my mother tongue. I love my language. I have the utmost respect for Irish and people who have that language as their mother tongue, it's just not mine.

adonis wrote:

people jsut get used to the gaelic names, thats all...and we do have a very rich heritage of place names and names in general, which is being eroded and lost due to the "translation" into english

The placenames we all use in daily life have been around a long time. It's not like we were calling Dublin, Baile Atha Cliath just a decade ago or something. The English language placenames have claimed their spot through usage by us, the Irish!

adonis wrote:

..So put them with Irish first and english second

Ah, this is totally different from what you said in your last post Adonis! You originally claimed that signage should be in Irish only!

adonis wrote:

...why cant people be proud of their language?

I am, my first language just happens to be English!

Bill McH · 10-05-2006 3:48am

I don't know if the poll choices can be changed, but choice #5 seems a bit ambiguous.

It's currently "English only outside the Gaeltacht".

I think what it's intended to offer is:

"outside the Gaeltacht, English only"

The current "English only outside the Gaeltacht" could imply that signs in the Gaeltacht should be in Irish only, while signs in other areas could or should be in both languages.

SeanW · 10-05-2006 4:12am

You have a point there. I took it to mean "English only, on signs outside the Gaeltacth"

corktina · 10-05-2006 8:16am

i dont mind if people want to retain Irish as their language, but what I do object to is the Irish-isation of words just for the sake of it......example, "Diosal" is one I saw in the filling station this week......The guys name is Diesel, so it should be spelt that way in every language....it is bastardising the irish language to be making up new words......ask the French what they think about "le bif stek" etc (or however they spell it.....)

as for road signs, well they need to inform as many people as possible, and that means them being in English on this island...I dont mind if they are bi-lingual, it isnt relevant to me. How many people speak Irish but no English? are there ANY?

nordydan · 10-05-2006 9:01am

" I think what it's intended to offer is:

"outside the Gaeltacht, English only" "

>Thats what I meant, irish only in gaeltacht and english only in other parts. I tried to reword the poll but with no joy!

"This country has a rich heritage of Irish placenames, even those of us who predominately speak English are enriched by their presence on roadsigns. One hopes the present arrangements will shortly be extended to those parts of the country with the greatest predominance of Gaelic placenames, but where colonial rule means that the original names cannot appear on signs."

Well said. If you are ever in Ballynure or other unionists parts of the north they have:

WELCOME TO BALLYNURE

<PICTURE OF A TREE>

Townland of the Yew Tree

Spot the missing link here anyone???

NavanJunction1 · 10-05-2006 9:52am

corktina wrote:

How many people speak Irish but no English? are there ANY?

No, but bi-lingualism shouldn't be a crime. It shouldn't be "Great, you've learned English now. Leave your Gaelic at the door please."

There are many families in which the spoken language of the home is Gaelic. You mightn't know this about them in many cases unless you knew the family well.

Because English dominates so strongly on this island, people are often surprised when they learn this, if they aren't part of that community.

And you would be surprised how many people do speak Gaeilge and went Gael-scoileanna but don't advertise it, and why should they?

Being able to use your native language is part of freedom of expression, particularly in your own land. Who cares if beaureucrats don't like it.

And just a quick point re imported words into Gaelic. English is a bastardised language, French, German, Latin and Greek (bit of Gaelic) all rolled into one. The problem with language is that nothing is pure.

And standardisation of English only took hold when the printing press was invented - before that there were multiple dialects.

The example of Diesel is good one. Diesel is a german word after the inventor of the diesel engine. It was subsequently taken into English.

And yes Gaelic has it's own imports other than those from English - The Icelandic for button is Knapf, Gaelic Cnaipe. Ship building words in Gaelic were mainly borrowed from the Norse, religious terminolgy from the French and Latin.

And remember, even within languages the meaning of words change, as does their spellings etc.

From Gaelic to English you have words such as Tory (yes, the conservatives of all people!) and galore.

It's all just language. How you regard it is a personal thing. The quality of our signage is a different issue completely.

luckat · 10-05-2006 9:54am

The sheer hatred of Irish by some Irish people always amuses me, and baffles me a little.

It seems that it is part of a deeper self-hatred.

nordydan · 10-05-2006 10:13am

Well said navanjunction1.

Luckat, you are spot on. There are some irish people who hate being irish. There are also some irish people who think the irish are not fit to govern themselves and should be ruled from london. It is their problem, not this country's.

murphaph · 10-05-2006 11:13am

nordydan wrote:

There are also some irish people who think the irish are not fit to govern themselves and should be ruled from london. It is their problem, not this country's.

Would these people include the majority of people in Northern Ireland?

Dan, honestly, I can see your political aspirations in boards/politics. This is commuting/transport and that last post had 0 commuting/transport content. There is no need to turn every thread into a "look how more Irish I am than you" p!ssing contest, it gets tedious reading it but I will adress it in the context of this thead.

When you see the shocking implementation of our road signs down here (I'm not refering to bilingualism at all now, just the implementation of the existing Traffic Signs Manual, 1994 published by the DoE-yes folks, there is an actual manual for local authorities to follow!) and compare it to the UK's pretty flawless and comprehensive implementation of their TSRGD Rule Book you can appreciate why people get very frustrated as a quick spin over the border reveals a whole bunch of folks who appear quite competent in doing their job. So why aren't our local authority employees so competent? What is there to be 'proud' of in that? Heck, even our National Roads Authority have presided over introducing dangerous new overhead gantries which mislead people into needlessly changing lane at junctions! We are not some immature little fledgling state anymore. We have been independent for over 80 years yet we still carry on like a west African tinpot regime-all grand plans and little attention to minor road maintenance and signage installation and upkeep. I have never heard of cat's eyes being replaced, despite the fact that the reflective beads only last app 24months and need to be pooped out and changed. I'm not impressed by the local authorities' willingness to allow contractors to dig huge trenches in recently surfaced roads to insert private networks along them, inserting 6, yes SIX manhole covers every 150m, trning a nice road into a deathtrap for a motorcyclist like myself. I'm not in the slightest bit impressed by any of it. It is nothing I'd want to aspire to. We don't need bilingual signage to differentiate us from the brits, once you cross the border you can see by the standard of implementation that you're definitely outside the UK!

Is this what we want to be our visitors abiding memory of Ireland? Getting lost at every turn? I think not. We talk a lot but have a long way to go before we can compare ourselves with our nearest neighbours. You mentioned some people's belief that we are not it to govern ourselves, well I put it to you that at a certain level we aren't. Local authorities are local government. They are, for the most part, incompetent in the extreme when it comes to following the Traffic Signs Manual and so indeed are unfit for government, albeit local. Then you have the DoT, who are supposed to enforce the rule book, but I don't see anybody going around taking incomptent local authorities to task over completely ignoring the rule book, so that oo is incompetence in government at national level.

It is OK to criticise our government and seek to make it better. It does not make one a unionist/traitor/g-man etc. etc. It merely makes one somebody who seeks to improve this country in a meaningful way. Many are just happy that we're independent-not good enough for me.

r3nu4l · 10-05-2006 11:34am

Well, I would love to see all road signs with both Irish and English on them, equal importance I say!

I grew up speaking English and detested learning Irish in school but actually liked speaking a little Irish (what little I could speak).

Now as a 30 year old I have found my interest in Irish increasing dramatically. I think this is in part because I live in the UK but my mix of friends are from all over Europe – France, Germany, Greece, Austria, Switzerland.

Every single one of them have asked me to speak some Irish and have learned some phrases. They are always amazed that Irish people are not more proud of Irish as a language and don't use it more. They do understand why we use English in our day-to-day work and business life. They are really interested in Irish.

My Greek friend is going to Galway next weekend and looking forward to seeing some written Irish. I told her to look out for the road signs as they are one of the only places where tourists come into contact with the language!

Aidan1 · 10-05-2006 11:42am

Being able to use your native language is part of freedom of expression, particularly in your own land. Who cares if beaureucrats don't like it.

I'm sorry, but for the vast, vast majority of people on this island, English is their native language. This has been the case for at least 150 years.

Trying to insist that anybody who points this out is somehow 'anti Irish' or ashamed of their background is more than a little pathetic. Its just a fact. You might not like it, or approve of the historical processes that brought it about, but here we are. Roadsignage should reflect this, English with Irish underneath in most of the country, the inverse in Gaeltacht areas.

Whats the purpose of roadsigns after all? Asserting the existence of Irish, or providing guidance to those who don't know their way? One would presume that the locals will know where they're going ...

Even in so called Gaeltacht areas, allegience to Irish is mainly a nominal thing anyway. To a large degree, these areas continue to exist to qualify for the additional funding in place for them. Moreover, anyone got a proper map of Gaeltacht areas?

Bilingual signs

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