Water meters install problem

riclad · 20-08-2013 12:09am #1

It was on the Joe Duffy show, today, re water meters, it said there could be a problem with the method of putting in new meters, i.e. most European countries install them around 3ft down. IF they are installed say 1ft down, if we have a bad winter, the meters will freeze and crack, like a pipe breaks, as ice, water expands.

It would be very expensive to fix or replace, 1000s of meters if they are installed at the wrong depth. It seems every 3 or 4 years we get a really cold winter, with heavy snow. Meters were installed in some new housing estates and they did break due to being installed at a shallow depth.

Thoie · 20-08-2013 12:19am

riclad wrote: »

IT WAS on the joe duffy show,
re water meters ,it said there could be a problem with the method of putting in new meters .
ie most eur0poean countrys install them around 3ft down.
IF they are installed say 1ft down, if we have a bad winter,
the meters will freeze and crack , like a pipe breaks ,as ice, water expands.

IT would be very expensive to fix or replace, 1000,s of meters if they are installed at the wrong depth.
IT seems every 3 or 4 years we get a really cold winter ,with heavy snow .
METERS were installed in some new housing estates and they did break
due to being installed at a shallow depth.

Our infrastructure is a bit f***ed anyway. As you mentioned, councils all over the country installed stop cocks inches from the surface. I know of one house where the outside stop cock is barely 6 inches under the footpath, which, despite as much lagging as possible, causes havoc on a regular basis.

I doubt the meter installers are going to dig down another few feet and reroute the pipes.

On top of that, they're still persisting with the bloody stupid idea of not bothering to install a meter in each apartment, but just having one for everyone who lives there, leaving people with a utility bill they have no control over :mad:

On the continent they've managed to retrofit water meters neatly into each apartment in very old buildings, but seemingly that's impossible over here.

mickdw · 20-08-2013 12:23am

You mean they are fitting one meter per apartment block? Surely not.

jimmycrackcorm · 20-08-2013 12:23am

Wouldn't it be cheaper to replace meters that break this way than dig deeper given that frozen pipes aren't such a huge problem in this country?

As for apartments, I suspect the real idea is to get to them eventually.

Froststop · 20-08-2013 12:34am

Meter boxes in 2010 in Cavan reported to be -24 while air temp was -9

Thoie · 20-08-2013 12:38am

mickdw wrote: »

You mean they are fitting one meter per apartment block? Surely not.

Yup - I've been in touch with the current incumbent and his predecessor, Gormley about it. Gormley just kept repeating that "things were in the planning stages". I suggest that they plan for this, which was ignored.

Hogan (or more correctly, his secretary) waffled on about "fair and just". I pointed out that shared meters were neither, then there was more waffle about "planning".

jimmycrackcorm wrote: »

As for apartments, I suspect the real idea is to get to them eventually.

From the conversations I've had so far, I don't think so. Once they have a communal meter in, and money being paid there'll be no shifting them. They really don't give a **** about apartment dwellers. There's not even a hint that they're arsed even thinking about enforcing the infamous (and pathetic) MUD act. /rant

Froststop · 20-08-2013 12:38am

Thoie wrote: »

Our infrastructure is a bit f***ed anyway. As you mentioned, councils all over the country installed stop cocks inches from the surface. I know of one house where the outside stop cock is barely 6 inches under the footpath, which, despite as much lagging as possible, causes havoc on a regular basis.

I doubt the meter installers are going to dig down another few feet and reroute the pipes.

On top of that, they're still persisting with the bloody stupid idea of not bothering to install a meter in each apartment, but just having one for everyone who lives there, leaving people with a utility bill they have no control over :mad:

On the continent they've managed to retrofit water meters neatly into each apartment in very old buildings, but seemingly that's impossible over here.

They will have to go down to minimum depth of the meter box to get it flush with ground level. I'd be more worried about leaks and the finish of the footpath.

Froststop · 20-08-2013 12:44am

Thoie wrote: »

Yup - I've been in touch with the current incumbent and his predecessor, Gormley about it. Gormley just kept repeating that "things were in the planning stages". I suggest that they plan for this, which was ignored.

Hogan (or more correctly, his secretary) waffled on about "fair and just". I pointed out that shared meters were neither, then there was more waffle about "planning".

From the conversations I've had so far, I don't think so. Once they have a communal meter in, and money being paid there'll be no shifting them. They really don't give a **** about apartment dwellers. There's not even a hint that they're arsed even thinking about enforcing the infamous (and pathetic) MUD act. /rant

Their will be a contract to fit in each apartment at a later stage. The problem is getting access according to Irish Water engineers.

riclad · 20-08-2013 12:45am

I think one meter costs 200 euro plus,
if we get a bad winter, and 1000 ,s of them freeze, and break who ,
is gonna pay repair bill.

Are you saying an apartment block with 20 units ,is just going to have 1 meter?

Thoie · 20-08-2013 12:45am

Froststop wrote: »

They will have to go down to minimum depth of the meter box to get it flush with ground level. I'd be more worried about leaks and the finish of the footpath.

Yerra, tis grand. It'll settle. The footpath was like that to start with. Now that you say it I can see a bit of a bump alright, but sure what do you expect me to do about it? You'd need to talk to the council about that - I'm off the clock.

Froststop · 20-08-2013 12:48am

riclad wrote: »

I think one meter costs 200 euro plus,
if we get a bad winter, and 1000 ,s of them freeze, and break who ,
is gonna pay repair bill.

Are you saying an apartment block with 20 units ,is just going to have 1 meter?

To the best of my knowledge the winning price was €95/meter. They have to replace faulty meters for 20yrs.

Froststop · 20-08-2013 12:51am

Thoie wrote: »

Yerra, tis grand. It'll settle. The footpath was like that to start with. Now that you say it I can see a bit of a bump alright, but sure what do you expect me to do about it? You'd need to talk to the council about that - I'm off the clock.

HaHa yea we will have a grave outside our gates and break our neck every time we come home in the dark.

Thoie · 20-08-2013 1:01am

Froststop wrote: »

Their will be a contract to fit in each apartment at a later stage. The problem is getting access according to Irish Water engineers.

Bull**** (not your comment, Irish Water's). If there are already plans for a contract to fit meters in apartments, why would they not come out and say that? Looking at the Irish Water website, the closest mention is

http://www.water.ie/help-centre/questions-and-answers/when-will-i-get-a-meter/?category=metering

Other properties which have been identified as currently "non-meterable" (e.g. apartments, backyard services) will be considered for further phases of meter rollout.

which means "we're hoping it will magically solve itself, cos we can't be arsed thinking about it".

riclad wrote: »

Are you saying an apartment block with 20 units ,is just going to have 1 meter?

Yes. Or a block with 100 units, or whatever. The website currently says

ustomers will receive an unmetered bill if a meter has not been installed for their property. The cost of an unmetered bill will be defined by the regulator.

This doesn't tally with what I've been told in the past about a meter per apartment building. I'll call them tomorrow and see what they say.

Don't get me wrong - I'm in favour of water metering, as is the norm in many other countries. In most countries you get a "free" allowance each year, and are then charged for the excess. Despite this having been in planning for over two years now, they're coming out with a half-assed, dumb as **** plan of "well, we'll install meters if we feel like it, and some people won't get them, but we'll just bill them an unknown amount, regardless of their usage, while for others we'll just lump them all together and pretend they're just one really big household with 300 people living in it. And despite having had lots of lovely meetings (don't forget to claim your expenses lads!) about this for more than 2 years, we don't have a bull's notion how much we're going to charge".

Froststop · 20-08-2013 1:15am

I was informed by a contact on the meter program the apartment meters will follow the home meters and a % will be dedicated to new technologies for reading devices. Their big problem is tracing pipes and getting access to private property. They are very selective in what they publish and the whole thing very secretive from the start.

"(e.g. apartments, backyard services) will be considered for further phases of meter rollout."

The harder/problem ones are being left till last.

" and some people won't get them, but we'll just bill them an unknown amount, regardless of their usage, while for others we'll just lump them all together and pretend they're just one really big household with 300 people living in it."

The problem is they will bill the landlord and he will have to decide how to split it between the tenants. So if one uses 100 gallons per day and another uses 40 gallons they will be charged the same which is unfair IMO. They may also be hoping a private company will come and do the sh.t work for them.

With regard to Phil & Co, waste of time, they don't know their arse from their elbow! I doubt if they even know what stage IW are at.

Victor · 20-08-2013 3:08am

riclad wrote: »

IT WAS on the joe duffy show

Banned.

No, not really. But seriously, was this the Joe Duffy Plumbing Show? This is the Infrastructure Forum, we try to have discussions on technical merits, not some guy on the radio winding up old people to gain ratings.

Moderator

If the meter is at X depth, it is at no more risk than the stop cock that is currently at the same depth.

mickdw wrote: »

You mean they are fitting one meter per apartment block? Surely not.

Many apartment buildings already have individual meters. If individual apartments want meters in the short term, they can fit them themselves.

Apartment buildings would likely have fewer leaks than individual houses.

ardle1 · 20-08-2013 3:18am

Thoie wrote: »

Our infrastructure is a bit f***ed anyway. As you mentioned, councils all over the country installed stop cocks inches from the surface. I know of one house where the outside stop cock is barely 6 inches under the footpath, which, despite as much lagging as possible, causes havoc on a regular basis.

I doubt the meter installers are going to dig down another few feet and reroute the pipes.

On top of that, they're still persisting with the bloody stupid idea of not bothering to install a meter in each apartment, but just having one for everyone who lives there, leaving people with a utility bill they have no control over :mad:

On the continent they've managed to retrofit water meters neatly into each apartment in very old buildings, but seemingly that's impossible over here.

Just proves it's another money making RACKET, if it was for no other reason,why wouldn't they bury the meters 3' or deeper?? anyway they'll do the maths in the next few days,and probably bury them to the recommended depth...

Cuttlefish · 21-08-2013 6:07pm

So you live in a house that has never had a frozen pipe in 21 years.

They install a water meter and the next bad frost your pipes are frozen!!

What do you deduce from that?

The water has frozen at the recently installed meter point?
and
Who is responsible?

zl1whqvjs75cdy · 21-08-2013 6:12pm

Didn't know about that one meter per block. My gf and I are both out of the apartment all day and obviously use no water. Why should I pay for the water my neighbors guzzle. They can **** right off.

Sierra Oscar · 21-08-2013 7:42pm

Kaelyn Inexpensive Threshold wrote: »

Didn't know about that one meter per block. My gf and I are both out of the apartment all day and obviously use no water. Why should I pay for the water my neighbors guzzle. They can **** right off.

On a similar note, how are they going to manage houses that share a water mains? Quite a lot of houses that were built in Dublin from the 1930's to 1950's have a couple or more houses sharing one water mains. Donnycarney and surrounding areas jumps to mind immediately. Are we looking at estimated bills for people in those houses?

Froststop · 21-08-2013 8:13pm

Sierra Oscar wrote: »

On a similar note, how are they going to manage houses that share a water mains? Quite a lot of houses that were built in Dublin from the 1930's to 1950's have a couple or more houses sharing one water mains. Donnycarney and surrounding areas jumps to mind immediately. Are we looking at estimated bills for people in those houses?

They are planning to separate feeds and Co Councils are surveying these at present. The big problem is can it be done without going on private property.
If it can't then estimated bills for those I'd imagine.
I thought this might only happen in more rural areas if a family member built on family ground or in the acre. Surprising to hear it in built up areas, one would have thought town & city areas would all be separate mains supplies.

Froststop · 21-08-2013 8:40pm

Cuttlefish wrote: »

So you live in a house that has never had a frozen pipe in 21 years.

They install a water meter and the next bad frost your pipes are frozen!!

What do you deduce from that?

The water has frozen at the recently installed meter point?
and
Who is responsible?

Good point! Hope this helps.
Most frozen water mains supplies don't freeze at the stopcock, until someone pours hot water down it. They freeze at point of entry to the house where usually the mains is at it's highest point. Most can be only a couple of inches under the footpath as it enters the building.

But the new meter boxes are supposed to have been tested by a Cavan Council engineer back in 2010 during the cold weather and they were supposed to have recorded temps as low as -24 in the boxes when air temp was only -9. Something to do with thermo-frost.
I've been unable to find the guy who did the tests as I'd like to see the results.

Regarding who is responsible for the meter freezing?
In Scotland, Scottish Water are responsible for theirs as they are providing the service. They have workers on call to attend to frozen meters 24/7.
I assume it will be the same here as IW will be providing the service.

murphaph · 21-08-2013 9:57pm

Water metering has been the norm here in Germany for decades yet we only replaced our communal meter (1 for 12 apartments in the building) with individual ones this year. many apartment buildings in German have 1 meter. It's then up to the apartment owners to decide how to divide the bill (typically it's done by floor area).

Froststop · 22-08-2013 12:07am

murphaph wrote: »

Water metering has been the norm here in Germany for decades yet we only replaced our communal meter (1 for 12 apartments in the building) with individual ones this year. many apartment buildings in German have 1 meter. It's then up to the apartment owners to decide how to divide the bill (typically it's done by floor area).

Interesting point about the floor area of the apartment. No doubt they had a little profit on it. I would have thought they would just divide the bill.

Thoie · 22-08-2013 9:11am

murphaph wrote: »

Water metering has been the norm here in Germany for decades yet we only replaced our communal meter (1 for 12 apartments in the building) with individual ones this year. many apartment buildings in German have 1 meter. It's then up to the apartment owners to decide how to divide the bill (typically it's done by floor area).

I feel oddly better now - my own experience in France, Germany, Switzerland led me to believe that every apartment (even in old buildings) had their own meter. It must just have been in the places I visited.

I can see that floor area is probably the easiest split, though not necessarily the fairest.

zl1whqvjs75cdy · 22-08-2013 9:22am

What if you have say a block of 6 apartments. 4 owner occupied and 2 rented. The renters if coming to the end of a lease could tell the owners to shove it. This may not happen in civilized places such as Germany but I'd wager there's plenty of Irish who'd chance their arm at this.

Victor · 22-08-2013 9:27am

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

What if you have say a block of 6 apartments. 4 owner occupied and 2 rented. The renters if coming to the end of a lease could tell the owners to shove it. This may not happen in civilized places such as Germany but I'd wager there's plenty of Irish who'd chance their arm at this.

The landlord would deduct any outstanding bills from their deposit.

murphaph · 22-08-2013 12:30pm

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

What if you have say a block of 6 apartments. 4 owner occupied and 2 rented. The renters if coming to the end of a lease could tell the owners to shove it. This may not happen in civilized places such as Germany but I'd wager there's plenty of Irish who'd chance their arm at this.

Things like this are what's going to force landlords into requesting "German style" deposits (3 months rent) IMO.

riclad · 22-08-2013 1:23pm

IF its zero degrees ,the interior pipes should not freeze ,
if they are insulated,
the house is occupied ,the heating will be on at least after 6pm,
I,M concerned we in ireland tend to do things on own way,
if its fecked ,up,too bad.
GO back and fix it later.

eg NRA built loads of new roads in the boom,
no planning for rest stops ,like in the uk or europe.

Whats the average depth of water mains going in to new buildings, houses , apartments ,say built since 2005,?

so 3 people in apartment 1, will pay the same as 1 person in apartment 2 ,in the same building.

I thought the point of water metering was to reduce consumption,
reduce waste.

Froststop · 22-08-2013 1:43pm

Hi riclad,

Pipes won't freeze under normal Irish winter conditions if insulated.
The problem starts if constant freezing takes place for 48-72hrs night & day, then pipes are at risk as proved in 2010.
I've repaired burst attic pipe work insulated with Armaflex which is not fitted in most homes and is higher quality than the standard insulation.

"Whats the average depth of water mains going in to new buildings"

I would say it depends on who dug the trench. I've seen them at 3 feet and at 3-4 inches under footpaths.

"I thought the point of water metering was to reduce consumption,
reduce waste."

Good point! I think most people & I, thought it was one reason of many to fit water meters. But the method IW are using has noting to do with saving water.
Quarterly readings with every second bill estimated. Not accurate enough to monitor for leaks but may help reduce consumption.
It will also cost millions to collect readings. There is newer reading devices which would save this expense. The down fall is the newer readers will reduce employment.

Thoie · 22-08-2013 2:21pm

riclad wrote: »

so 3 people in apartment 1, will pay the same as 1 person in apartment 2 ,in the same building.

I thought the point of water metering was to reduce consumption,
reduce waste.

Froststop wrote: »

"I thought the point of water metering was to reduce consumption,
reduce waste."

Good point! I think most people & I, thought it was one reason of many to fit water meters. But the method IW are using has noting to do with saving water.
Quarterly readings with every second bill estimated. Not accurate enough to monitor for leaks but may help reduce consumption.
It will also cost millions to collect readings. There is newer reading devices which would save this expense. The down fall is the newer readers will reduce employment.

Precisely, and I'd already pointed out as much to Gormley and Hogan. The original plan was just to charge apartment owners a flat rate for water, regardless of usage. That makes a mockery of water conservation. A friend (with a house) jokingly said that if I was being charged a flat rate all year, he'd run a hose from my apartment to his house, and buy me a pint.

The 3 people in one apartment vs 1 person in another also leads to injustices (they've repeatedly said that they want the charges to be usage based, and just). A charge based on apartment size will in no way encourage me to reduce consumption. If I live alone, take one shower a day, run the washing machine once a week and am out at work all day, my consumption will be a small fraction of someone with 2 kids having regular baths, 2 adults showering, washing machine running daily, and people being around the house all day.

If I find that my electricity bills are too high and I can't afford them, there are steps I can take to reduce my bills. If I'm suddenly sharing my electricity bill with a random family down the road, there's nothing I can do about it.

Don't forget, you can always mail minister@environ.ie to ask him to clarify his plans, and raise your objections to flat-charges or forced sharing of utility bills between unconnected households.

Froststop · 22-08-2013 2:51pm

Hi Thoie,

Maybe tenants in apartments need to start some campaign. It's very unfair to split the bill as all it will take is one person to waste water and the rest will have to cover the cost also!

One person emailing to try and get info will fall on deaf ears or just be fobed off.

My meter in my home is set to calculate cost of water automatically. I have it set at the high rate at the moment for demonstration purposes.
Which is €2.30 per cubic meter and the average weekly cost for a family of four is €3.80. That does not include standing charge or repayments for the meter. They claim that there will be a free allowance but will that come to bare.

IMO charges could be approx €20-€25/m or €300/yr and will probably be +Vat.

Thoie · 22-08-2013 3:15pm

Froststop wrote: »

Maybe tenants in apartments need to start some campaign. It's very unfair to split the bill as all it will take is one person to waste water and the rest will have to cover the cost also!

You're right, but the problem is that any time you try to have a conversation with a large group about water charges, at least 50% will start yelling and shouting "f*** that, water should be free". People start shouting that they won't be paying it, blah blah blah. I don't have the time to start a campaign, or deal with those people. I suspect that if the minister started getting emails from lots of people stating they're happy to pay water charges, as long as they're usage-based, equitable and promote water conservation, it might make some impact.

Froststop · 22-08-2013 3:43pm

"at least 50% will start yelling and shouting "f*** that, water should be free"

You will find that they will be the first to pay! All mouth and no action.

"if the minister started getting emails from lots of people stating they're happy to pay water charges, as long as they're usage-based,"

Bombard his office with emails and letters. Getting people to act is the problem, again all mouth...

Victor · 23-08-2013 6:20pm

Froststop wrote: »

Quarterly readings with every second bill estimated. Not accurate enough to monitor for leaks but may help reduce consumption.

While that may not detect new leaks immediately, it will detect them over time and will certainly detect existing leaks.

It will also cost millions to collect readings. There is newer reading devices which would save this expense. The down fall is the newer readers will reduce employment.

Really? Why can't they use the same meter readers that Bord Gáis and ESB networks already use? Of just put a reader on An Post delivery vans/ bikes?

solas111 · 23-08-2013 6:31pm

Having a rational discussion on this issue is like asking a mugger to steal from only one of your pockets.

There is no problem with meters cracking as a result of incompetent installation because the sitting ducks who pay the first time, i.e. you and I, can have their pockets dipped again to pay for a replacement meter.

Victor · 23-08-2013 6:44pm

solas111 wrote: »

Having a rational discussion on this issue is like asking a mugger to steal from only one of your pockets.

There is no problem with meters cracking as a result of incompetent installation because the sitting ducks who pay the first time, i.e. you and I, can have their pockets dipped again to pay for a replacement meter.

The contractors are responsible for meter defects.

solas111 · 23-08-2013 7:18pm

Victor wrote: »

The contractors are responsible for meter defects.

When the contractor has completed his work and Water Ireland is sold off to some foreign speculator, who do you think will be paying for repairs?

Froststop · 23-08-2013 7:37pm

Victor wrote: »

While that may not detect new leaks immediately, it will detect them over time and will certainly detect existing leaks.

Really? Why can't they use the same meter readers that Bord Gáis and ESB networks already use? Of just put a reader on An Post delivery vans/ bikes?

Not your common leak, maybe a major rupture. If a small leak exists you might never know.
Because they have bought a cheap drive-by system already. €95/house and older technology.

However is raises the question why they were not included in the CER smart metering project? There is no reason why they couldn't have been. It would have been the ideal solution and all meters could work on the same system.

Post office vans would be the ideal option but the data has to be transferred to the water meter server every evening, unless they give An Post a contract for doing it. Bord Gáis vans might be an option.

They claim they can drive down the road at 50KM per hr and collect all the readings on the way. It doesn't work that way as all the data takes time to upload. Could be as much as 15-30 mins per 300 houses and you can miss as much as 1/3rd when the data is transferred to the main server.

Froststop · 23-08-2013 7:40pm

solas111 wrote: »

When the contractor has completed his work and Water Ireland is sold off to some foreign speculator, who do you think will be paying for repairs?

The service provider (Irish Water) or new owner is responsible for the first twenty years.

Victor · 23-08-2013 8:02pm

solas111 wrote: »

When the contractor has completed his work and Water Ireland is sold off to some foreign speculator, who do you think will be paying for repairs?

The contractor, because they won't be getting all their money up front.

Pete_Cavan · 23-08-2013 11:05pm

riclad wrote: »

IT WAS on the joe duffy show,today,
Re water meters ,it said there could be a problem with the method of putting in new meters .
ie most european countrys install them around 3ft down.
IF they are installed say 1ft down, if we have a bad winter,
the meters will freeze and crack , like a pipe breaks ,as ice, water expands.

Pipes froze before and will freeze again if it gets cold enough for the frost to penetrate to the depth of the pipe, a meter wont change this.

Thoie wrote: »

On top of that, they're still persisting with the bloody stupid idea of not bothering to install a meter in each apartment, but just having one for everyone who lives there, leaving people with a utility bill they have no control over

The meters are being installed where the public water pipe meets the private connection, in the case of apartment blocks there is one connection for the block, rather than individual connections for each apartments. Metering each apartment would involve meters on the private side of the connection, which is not the responibility of IW. Also, water generally enters an apartment at multiple points (ie. at the kitchen on one side of the apartment and at the bathroom on the other) so you either need multiple meters (one at each point and total them for the apt) or you replumb the apartment so water enters at one point and circulates around that apartment only.

Froststop wrote: »

Not your common leak, maybe a major rupture. If a small leak exists you might never know.
Because they have bought a cheap drive-by system already. €95/house and older technology.

It would identify leaks in the public pipes (ie. the reading on the meter on the trunk main should equal the sum of the individual connections). It wont identify leaks on the consumer side but that is not IWs problem.

Froststop wrote: »

However is raises the question why they were not included in the CER smart metering project? There is no reason why they couldn't have been. It would have been the ideal solution and all meters could work on the same system.

Electricity, water, gas, etc. generally enter the building at different points so to combine all into one meter would mean some serious rerouting of utilities in and around the house. Also I am sure there would be safety issues with bringing water and electricity to one point.

Froststop wrote: »

They claim they can drive down the road at 50KM per hr and collect all the readings on the way. It doesn't work that way as all the data takes time to upload. Could be as much as 15-30 mins per 300 houses and you can miss as much as 1/3rd when the data is transferred to the main server.

I seriously doubt it would take that long to read a few simple digits, I can download large video files on my phone in seconds.

Froststop · 24-08-2013 1:21am

Pete_Cavan
"It would identify leaks in the public pipes (ie. the reading on the meter on the trunk main should equal the sum of the individual connections). It wont identify leaks on the consumer side but that is not IWs problem."

It should but getting the trunk meter calibrations correct to match private meters could be a problem. If the calibration is wrong readings won't match. I anticipate the customer is only worried about their leaks or consumption & the trunk is not the customers problem. There are AMR systems which show a leak on the consumer side & the consumer can log in a view data and costs.

Pete_Cavan
"Electricity, water, gas, etc. generally enter the building at different points so to combine all into one meter would mean some serious rerouting of utilities in and around the house. Also I am sure there would be safety issues with bringing water and electricity to one point."

Three meters and three readers, which we will have eventually, the elec meter is the main hub reader because there is power available, which communicates with the gas & water meters using Zigbee or Blue LE which are battery. Gas & water readings are sent to the elec meter and then sent out from there the billing system. This is the way it will work for the CER project only the water meter is not part of the scope.

Pete_Cavan
"I seriously doubt it would take that long to read a few simple digits, I can download large video files on my phone in seconds."

You are not down loading a few digits, you are down loading the data since the last read, e.g all readings for every pulse over the previous 3 months. This has to be done to prove to consumers how much they are consuming if a billing queries are made & IW will have to show it in graph format to explain to consumers. Otherwise it would be like a phone company sending you a bill and not being able to prove you made the calls.

These systems are in use in USA and most water utilities are now moving to sim based readers because of the problems collecting readings.

Thoie · 24-08-2013 1:38pm

Pete_Cavan wrote: »

The meters are being installed where the public water pipe meets the private connection, in the case of apartment blocks there is one connection for the block, rather than individual connections for each apartments. Metering each apartment would involve meters on the private side of the connection, which is not the responibility of IW.

Given that IW was created solely for the purpose of water metering 23 seconds ago, and they've known about this for over 2 years, that just isn't good enough. There was more than adequate time for them to plan for metering for each household, they just decided to ignore the issue. When creating the company there was nothing to stop them making meters on the private side the responsibility of IW (in the same way that electricity/gas meters are on the private side).

The DOE has on many occasions stated

The Government believes that metering is the fairest way to charge households for water. The introduction of volumetric water charges will provide households with an important incentive to reduce their consumption of water. International experience suggests the introduction of water meters can achieve a reduction in consumption of at least 10%.

(that's taken from here but I've heard the same from many different places).

If metering is the fairest way to charge households, and that's the way to provide an incentive, why not do that for all households? Or, if we're considering entire apartment blocks as a single household, why were individual apartments charged the household charge?

Apartments, like houses, have different input points - the ones I'm familiar with have a single point of entry for water, but so what if there are two entry points? With smart technology, that shouldn't matter - you just assign both meters to a single account, like ESB Networks do with day and night rate meters.

They have taken the idea of something "fair" and promoting water conservation and turned it into "feck a few yokes in wherever you feel like it and just bill the rest for whatever you want".

Pete_Cavan · 24-08-2013 3:47pm

Froststop wrote: »

It should but getting the trunk meter calibrations correct to match private meters could be a problem. If the calibration is wrong readings won't match. I anticipate the customer is only worried about their leaks or consumption & the trunk is not the customers problem. There are AMR systems which show a leak on the consumer side & the consumer can log in a view data and costs.

You will have problems with anything if it is calibrated wrong, same with water meters. IW still get paid for consumer side leaks. The consumer could install their own meter on their property to monitor their own usage and detect leaks on their side. Usage charges gives the consumer the incentive to do so. Not much more IW can do without works on private property and all the coordination and insurance issues associated with this.

Froststop wrote: »

Three meters and three readers, which we will have eventually, the elec meter is the main hub reader because there is power available, which communicates with the gas & water meters using Zigbee or Blue LE which are battery. Gas & water readings are sent to the elec meter and then sent out from there the billing system. This is the way it will work for the CER project only the water meter is not part of the scope.

And when will the CER project actually happen? If not right now (which it isnt) then it is largely irrelevant. When the CER smart metering does happen (God knows when that will be), then those meters only have to be able to read the water meter already in place.

Froststop wrote: »

You are not down loading a few digits, you are down loading the data since the last read, e.g all readings for every pulse over the previous 3 months. This has to be done to prove to consumers how much they are consuming if a billing queries are made & IW will have to show it in graph format to explain to consumers. Otherwise it would be like a phone company sending you a bill and not being able to prove you made the calls.

Really, and is it the same with electricity and gas bills? I think you are mistaken here. And it is nothing like a phone company sending you a bill and not being able to prove you made the calls, phone calls are charged at different rates for different types of calls, plus there is also texts and data too. Water charges will be based on the volume of water supplied to your home as measured by your water meter, only one variable so much simpler calculation (Y cubic metres of water x €Z/m3 + standing charge - free allowance). Only the current and previous readings are needed.

Pete_Cavan · 24-08-2013 4:08pm

Thoie wrote: »

Given that IW was created solely for the purpose of water metering 23 seconds ago, and they've known about this for over 2 years, that just isn't good enough. There was more than adequate time for them to plan for metering for each household, they just decided to ignore the issue. When creating the company there was nothing to stop them making meters on the private side the responsibility of IW (in the same way that electricity/gas meters are on the private side).

The DOE has on many occasions stated (that's taken from here but I've heard the same from many different places).

If metering is the fairest way to charge households, and that's the way to provide an incentive, why not do that for all households? Or, if we're considering entire apartment blocks as a single household, why were individual apartments charged the household charge?

Apartments, like houses, have different input points - the ones I'm familiar with have a single point of entry for water, but so what if there are two entry points? With smart technology, that shouldn't matter - you just assign both meters to a single account, like ESB Networks do with day and night rate meters.

They have taken the idea of something "fair" and promoting water conservation and turned it into "feck a few yokes in wherever you feel like it and just bill the rest for whatever you want".

Each apt is wired individually but they are not plumbed individually so ESB metering has not relevance to water metering.

I am sure there are many ways to define a household, but if a household is where a private connection branches off a public watermain then yes, an entire apartment block is a single household. The internal pipework feeding water to the various sinks, toilets, etc. in each apt is private property and not IWs to go installing meters on. Do you think it would be ok for ESB to come into your house, knock a whole in a wall and install a meter to measure usage at the socket your TV is plugged into?

There has to be a balance between fair and practical and your view of it is too black and white. If you told apt dwellers their options are (i) unfair; entire apt block has one meter with bill proportioned out or (ii) fair; rip out plasterboard on walls all over your apt to allow it be replumbed, I think most would go for the unfair option over the hassle of fair.

Sam Russell · 24-08-2013 7:12pm

A few years ago, we had our watermains replaced with a blue plastic pipe running inside the old mains. New stop cocks installed and our water supply was much improved in pressure, flow and water quality. I noticed for some time afterwards, guys on their knees working on the stopcocks or near there. They appeared to be playing with little plastic bits with LCD displays which looked like water meters. They said they were testing for leaks.

Some time later, some guys were bolting a white box to a lamp post just up from me, and I asked them what it was and what it was for and I was told it was to read the water meters. Subsequently some houses had repairs to the water supplies to fix leaks.

As far as I can tell, our area was a test area for water meters. If that is so, then water meters will be read remotely and continuously with the data sent back directly to a central base. No meter readers or drive-by vans.

We also had our gas meter changed for a modern digital one, but as far as I can tell it is not remote reading (but it could be).

Joined up thinking!

Froststop · 25-08-2013 12:40pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

A few years ago, we had our watermains replaced with a blue plastic pipe running inside the old mains. New stop cocks installed and our water supply was much improved in pressure, flow and water quality. I noticed for some time afterwards, guys on their knees working on the stopcocks or near there. They appeared to be playing with little plastic bits with LCD displays which looked like water meters. They said they were testing for leaks.

Some time later, some guys were bolting a white box to a lamp post just up from me, and I asked them what it was and what it was for and I was told it was to read the water meters. Subsequently some houses had repairs to the water supplies to fix leaks.

As far as I can tell, our area was a test area for water meters. If that is so, then water meters will be read remotely and continuously with the data sent back directly to a central base. No meter readers or drive-by vans.

We also had our gas meter changed for a modern digital one, but as far as I can tell it is not remote reading (but it could be).

Joined up thinking!

Hi Sam,

Testing was carried out on using different metering systems, it sounds like a local area network system. The white box is the main hub and collects data from a number of meters before sending the data on to the utility. There would be meter readers/modems needed to communicate with the white box.

Some systems send the reading in real time within 30 mins with automatic water usage cost, leak detection, meter temps, daily usage & customer log in to view your data in simple graph format allowing the customer to monitor their own consumption. No drive-by or central collection hubs needed. Each meter communicates individually.

Sam Russell · 25-08-2013 1:58pm

Froststop wrote: »

Hi Sam,

Testing was carried out on using different metering systems, it sounds like a local area network system. The white box is the main hub and collects data from a number of meters before sending the data on to the utility. There would be meter readers/modems needed to communicate with the white box.

Some systems send the reading in real time within 30 mins with automatic water usage cost, leak detection, meter temps, daily usage & customer log in to view your data in simple graph format allowing the customer to monitor their own consumption. No drive-by or central collection hubs needed. Each meter communicates individually.

They came and added a second box but I do not know the exact functions and we get no information whatsoever about the scheme. It could be counting seagulls for all we know!

I doubt it could read the meters directly because of the distances involved. So maybe I'll call DCC and ask them.

Sam Russell · 25-08-2013 2:13pm

By the way, the meter (if that is what it is) is protected from frost by a large polystyrene cover which would be quite effective for a water feed in use (as the water is not frozen). I think frozen mains is not too big a problem for most installation. Cowboy estates might be different.

Froststop · 25-08-2013 2:31pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

They came and added a second box but I do not know the exact functions and we get no information whatsoever about the scheme. It could be counting seagulls for all we know!

I doubt it could read the meters directly because of the distances involved. So maybe I'll call DCC and ask them.

The second box may have been to pick up the meters the first couldn't, this can be problem with local area systems.

Froststop · 25-08-2013 2:45pm

Sam Russell wrote: »

By the way, the meter (if that is what it is) is protected from frost by a large polystyrene cover which would be quite effective for a water feed in use (as the water is not frozen). I think frozen mains is not too big a problem for most installation. Cowboy estates might be different.

Is the polystyrene cover flat or does it surround the meter down the sides?

You may have raised a very good point with your post!

If the meter is deep enough it will be less likely to freeze. The problem then is getting the readings or a signal out from the AMR system. May result in repeaters being fitted or worst case some meters having to read manually. Ultimately it could be a nightmare. It's finding the right balance IMO.

Water meters install problem

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