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New EU roaming rates?

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    #32
    Quackster
    Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 5,744 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quackster


    snaps wrote: »
    I cannot see anything mentioned on their website.

    On their website it states domestic rate/allowance plus 6c/MB surcharge. I have never been charged this surcharge.


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    #33
    snaps
    Registered Users Posts: 7,138 ✭✭✭snaps


    Quackster wrote: »
    On their website it states domestic rate/allowance plus 6c/MB surcharge. I have never been charged this surcharge.

    Do you have red roaming turned on?


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    #34
    Quackster
    Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 5,744 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quackster


    snaps wrote: »
    Do you have red roaming turned on?

    No.


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    #35
    snaps
    Registered Users Posts: 7,138 ✭✭✭snaps


    Quackster wrote: »
    No.

    This is interesting. So people are paying 2.99 a day for 200mb data for nothing.

    So all you need is a valid top up with data and you can use it in the EU as normal?


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    #36
    Quackster
    Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 5,744 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quackster


    snaps wrote: »
    This is interesting. So people are paying 2.99 a day for 200mb data for nothing.

    So all you need is a valid top up with data and you can use it in the EU as normal?

    I can't speak for billpay but for me and anyone else I know on prepay, that exactly would be the case.


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    #37
    snaps
    Registered Users Posts: 7,138 ✭✭✭snaps


    It seems while calls and sms usage in the EU will be reduced from June 2017, Data is the sticking point:

    A step by step reduction over 5 years for data caps decreasing from €7.7 per GB (as of 15 June 2017) to €6 per GB (as of 1 January 2018), €4.5 per GB (as of 1 January 2019), €3.5 per GB (as of 1 January 2020), €3 per GB (as of 1 January 2021) and €2.5 per GB (as of 1 January 2022).


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    #38
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Those are the wholesale prices, not what consumers will pay.


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    #39
    MBSnr
    Registered Users Posts: 2,189 ✭✭✭MBSnr


    ^^^

    Updated retail roaming details 27th March.

    https://ec.europa.eu/d...lines-retail-roaming


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    #40
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    MBSnr wrote: »
    ^^^

    Updated retail roaming details 27th March.

    https://ec.europa.eu/d...lines-retail-roaming

    Really? I missed that so but seems like a bad news.

    I think your link was not saved properly and it doesn't work, what is the URL again?


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    #41
    BlinkingLights
    Closed Accounts Posts: 910 ✭✭✭BlinkingLights


    I'm not sure how this is really going to work as the wholesale data rates are way too high to allow the Irish networks to just give you the full data allowance in other EU countries.

    Irish mobile data is actually very good value compared to most of the continent (except France and parts of Scandinavia which are similar).

    In Belgium for example €50 top up on the cheapest MVNO will only get you 5GB of data (Mobile Vikings)
    Orange (contract) Aigle Premium - €60/month 10GB
    Proximus L - €40/month 8GB (no higher allowances are offered!)


    Spain, Contract Orange : Ballena (Whale) 41.95/month - 6GB data.
    Mobistar Tarrif #20 - 45.50 - 20GB

    My concern is if they force the data allowance to be available, we'll end up with the highest common denominator data rates, which are really high instead of good value domestic data rates.

    The EU is doing something, and it is working for voice and SMS, but the various domestic markets are still WAY out of sync on mobile data prices. Some being very good value (including Ireland) and others offering data plans that are more like Ireland 3 or 4 years ago.

    I don't really understand why data prices in certain countries : Spain, Belgium, and even Germany are so high, yet here and in France they're pretty cheap.

    Cartels in those countries, perhaps?


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    #42
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    BlinkingLights wrote: »
    I'm not sure how this is really going to work as the wholesale data rates are way too high to allow the Irish networks to just give you the full data allowance in other EU countries.

    Irish mobile data is actually very good value compared to most of the continent (except France and parts of Scandinavia which are similar).

    In Belgium for example €50 top up on the cheapest MVNO will only get you 5GB of data.

    My concern is if they force the data allowance to be available, we'll end up with the highest common denominator data rates, which are really high instead of good value domestic data rates.

    The EU is doing something, and it is working for voice and SMS, but the various domestic markets are still WAY out of sync on mobile data prices. Some being very good value (including Ireland) and others offering data plans that are more like Ireland 3 or 4 years ago.

    I don't really understand why data prices in certain countries : Spain, Belgium, and even Germany are so high, yet here and in France they're pretty cheap.

    Cartels in those countries, perhaps?

    If I am not mistaken there is an option in the regulation for mobile network to restrict included roaming data to what it they can buy at the regulated wholesale rate with the amount they are billing to the customer.

    For example if the regulated wholesale rate is 7 euros per GB and you have a monthly contract of 21 eur per month (excl. VAT), they are allowed to restrict your included roaming allowance to 3GB per month.

    I am not clear how it translate to prepaid offers though.


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    #43
    BlinkingLights
    Closed Accounts Posts: 910 ✭✭✭BlinkingLights


    There'd have to be some kind of limit as €7.70 per GB is not particularly cheap.

    I just see there's been a lot of coverage of 3 over their attempt to split it into a 2GB data allowance (domestic / EU) and a massive 'free data bonus' which is not part of the plan and they're categorising as a sort of free gift or something, as an attempt to get around the obligation.

    If my 30GB meteor plan offered that it would potentially cost Meteor €231 / month and I'm only paying about €35

    So, basically that would be 4.5GB allowance, which would still result in 0 profit for Meteor if I were abroad. I'm still not sure how that would make business sense.


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    #44
    Cloudio9
    Registered Users Posts: 1,351 ✭✭✭Cloudio9


    7.70 is the maximum wholesale rate. If this is a problem for operators they are free to agree amongst themselves to charge a nominal fee or waive the charge.


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    #45
    BlinkingLights
    Closed Accounts Posts: 910 ✭✭✭BlinkingLights


    Cloudio9 wrote: »
    7.70 is the maximum wholesale rate. If this is a problem for operators they are free to agree amongst themselves to charge a nominal fee or waive the charge.

    The issue though is there isn't a single market, nor is there a standard expectation of data allowance.

    To a typical Belgian subscriber who's subject to the high prices there for data, 4.5GB of data sounds very generous, to an Irish person that's a very poor data allowance for €35/month.

    In quite a lot of the EU, data is *MUCH* more expensive than Ireland, France, the UK and a few other places that have had very data-orientated markets.

    So, I can't really see the wholesale prices budging unless the European Commission sends in DG Comp to shake down the market, and ensure there's no price fixing going on.


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    #46
    MBSnr
    Registered Users Posts: 2,189 ✭✭✭MBSnr


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Really? I missed that so but seems like a bad news.

    I think your link was not saved probably and it doesn't work, what is the URL again?

    Sorry - I cut and pasted from another forum post of mine..

    https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/news/berec-guidelines-retail-roaming


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    #47
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    MBSnr wrote: »
    Sorry - I cut and pasted from another forum post of mine..

    https://ec.europa.eu/digital-single-market/en/news/berec-guidelines-retail-roaming

    Cheers. Painful document to read and it took me a while to find relevant information but point 56 in the PDF seems to give pretty clear examples of how how data roaming restrictions will work.

    So if I get it right it doesn't look too bad and is not too dissimilar form what was published earlier in the media.

    What snaps mentioned is the wholesale price and mobile network will indeed need to provide free roaming (but with the limitation mentioned in the PDF which is not too bad: for example circa 5gb of monthly data roaming for a 20 euros monthly plan).


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    #48
    MBSnr
    Registered Users Posts: 2,189 ✭✭✭MBSnr


    Bob24 wrote: »
    Cheers. Painful document to read and it took me a while to find relevant information but point 56 in the PDF seems to give pretty clear examples of how how data roaming restrictions will work.

    Yeah - I tried to work it out last night and kinda figured it... Basically on Bill Pay you can use the amount of data your plan has left for the month. If you go over it while roaming they have factored in a 'roaming allowance' based on your monthly plan value and the wholesale cap of €7.70 per Gb to let you pay domestic price for the data used over your bundle use. Avoids the operator saying any Mb outside the bundle while roaming are €50 per Mb or something stupid.


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    #49
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,730 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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    #50
    BlinkingLights
    Closed Accounts Posts: 910 ✭✭✭BlinkingLights


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Check your Direct Debit is OK


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    #51
    BlinkingLights
    Closed Accounts Posts: 910 ✭✭✭BlinkingLights


    The approach 3 seem to be looking to try is to only include a very minimal amount of data in your "bundle" (2GB I think) for EU/Irish use and then call the rest of the data a "free bonus" and try to exclude it from the calculation entirely.


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    #52
    snaps
    Registered Users Posts: 7,138 ✭✭✭snaps


    The problem we have now is that the world we live in is very data dominated. I for one have a huge data lifestyle. Not just mobile but home broadband too. Everything we do is almost data orientated.

    Kids constantly watching youtube instead of normal TV.

    I don't watch any normal TV, just everything off the net or IPTV/Catchup.

    Then you have social media and then online messaging services like viber and whatsapp.

    Even though I have unlimited sms, i possibly don't send a tenth of sms messages as I do online messages.

    Data is a huge part of out lives, home or away. It seems the EU/Mobile providers know this.


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    #53
    Quackster
    Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 5,744 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quackster


    Going by that latest EC document, if an operator has separate on-net and off-net pricing for calls and texts, all EEA roaming usage can be charged at off-net rates.

    Thus the free Three-to-Three calls part of the €20 PAYG top-up offer doesn't have to be provided when roaming but the free any-network texts do.

    Three has got that much right.

    The data issue is quite clear though. The minimum roaming allowance must be twice the wholesale price cap that the cost of the plan, ie €20, would buy. This works out at 4.2GB, not the 2GB Three is trying to pass off.

    Also, if one exceeds the roaming data allowance, a surcharge may be applied. This surcharge is capped at 20c/MB (ex VAT). Three, by trying to apply the 101c/MB out-of-bundle charge for this is in clear breach of the regulation here too as one's use would still be in-bundle.


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    #54
    Cloudio9
    Registered Users Posts: 1,351 ✭✭✭Cloudio9


    Quackster wrote: »

    The data issue is quite clear though. The minimum roaming allowance must be twice the wholesale price cap that the cost of the plan, ie €20, would buy. This works out at 4.2GB, not the 2GB Three is trying to pass off.
    .

    Maybe their logic is the data is valued at 10 and the voice and texts are valued at 10


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    #55
    Quackster
    Moderators, Regional South Moderators Posts: 5,744 Mod ✭✭✭✭Quackster


    Cloudio9 wrote: »
    Maybe their logic is the data is valued at 10 and the voice and texts are valued at 10

    That same EC document states explicitly that it is irrelevant if there are calls and/or texts included too, the full cost of the plan has to be used when calculating the applicable roaming data allowance.


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    #56
    BlinkingLights
    Closed Accounts Posts: 910 ✭✭✭BlinkingLights


    Those costs will get passed on elsewhere


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    #57
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Cloudio9 wrote: »
    Quackster wrote: »

    The data issue is quite clear though. The minimum roaming allowance must be twice the wholesale price cap that the cost of the plan, ie €20, would buy. This works out at 4.2GB, not the 2GB Three is trying to pass off.
    .

    Maybe their logic is the data is valued at 10 and the voice and texts are valued at 10

    As far as the regulation is concerned I don't think it makes any difference. The only thing which matters is the cost of the full package.


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    #58
    Cloudio9
    Registered Users Posts: 1,351 ✭✭✭Cloudio9


    Quackster wrote: »
    That same EC document states explicitly that it is irrelevant if there are calls and/or texts included too, the full cost of the plan has to be used when calculating the applicable roaming data allowance.

    Thanks. Many plans effectively incorporate a device financing component. Could this be why virgin's plans are effectively two separate plans, a device plan and a service plan?


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    #59
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    Cloudio9 wrote: »
    Thanks. Many plans effectively incorporate a device financing component. Could this be why virgin's plans are effectively two separate plans, a device plan and a service plan?

    If I understand it right, the document does say that if part of monthly cost is used to subsidy a handset, this can be excluded from the calculation of the data roaming allowance:
    48. A mobile handset subsidy should be considered as a non-mobile service (other non-mobile services could be cloud services, news services, fixed access services, etc.). In this case, the provider may choose to apply the domestic retail price for the separate sale of the mobile service component (e.g. SIM-only offer) or the domestic retail price for the sale of such services with the same characteristics (e.g. same volume of voice minutes, SMS and data). BEREC considers that only tariff plans from the same operator can be taken into account for the calculations.


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    #60
    MBSnr
    Registered Users Posts: 2,189 ✭✭✭MBSnr


    Bob24 wrote: »
    If I understand it right, the document does say that if part of monthly cost is used to subsidy a handset, this can be excluded from the calculation of the data roaming allowance:

    With Meteor (I'm with them) I can see that the SIM Only plans are exactly the same as the Smartphone plans (data/voice/texts). That makes things fairly easy to work out what the handset subsidy is.

    Why do I get a feeling that the operators will muddy the waters here big time and Comreg will struggle....:eek:


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    #61
    Bob24
    Registered Users Posts: 10,905 ✭✭✭✭Bob24


    MBSnr wrote: »
    Why do I get a feeling that the operators will muddy the waters here big time and Comreg will struggle....:eek:

    Yes I have no doubt Three already have a few people on this, going through the details of the regulation and thinking of how to work around it.

    Before we know it, they'll be providing a free cinema ticket each month which costs them close to nothing and is restricted in the way you can use it, but they'll say it accounts for 10 euros worth of non-mobile service in your monthly payments and thus reduces your data roaming allowance.


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