Wind farm for the Midlands

Waestrel · 17-07-2012 3:16pm #1

heard this on RTE news this afternoon

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0717/wind-farm-firm-to-create-2-000-jobs-by-2018.html#article

Thoughts? It is unconnected to the Irish grid, being purely an "export" windfarm. It seems odd, but considering how many of our industries are purely export (intel, Pfizer) not to mention out farming exports too, it makes sense.

Since the midlands is not a huge area of tourism, surely it is the best place for such a development? that said, the place will be soggy with NIMBYs very soon i reckon.

pljudge321 · 17-07-2012 3:36pm

I remain extremely skeptical of these plans for reasons I've outlined in some of the other threads. For one have a look at that €1.2 billion. Assuming this means per year and a price of €60 per MWh this requires roughly 7.6 GW of wind, which is more than three times our current installed capacity and thats assuming a generous capacity factor for the midlands.

Secondly wind is a variable resource so its power output varies between close to nothing and close to its rated power depending on the weather. If you are exporting purely by a HVDC link how do you size the link to accommodate for this. VSC HVDC is the only technology that could be compatible with such a scheme and that is currently limited to around 500 MW per station. So you can either size the link to be able to take all the power and massively over-engineer on your capital costs or you an size it for an average value and throw away the rest of the energy.

Finally I'd like to know what a 'contract to supply €1.2bn of electricity to Britain's National Grid UK' actually entails.

mbur · 18-07-2012 12:27am

The question I ask is why are we so delighted to export irish wind energy when we are not self sufficient in electrical energy. This talk of a dedecated link to the UK suggests that none of this project's output will ever hit the local market where it is sorely needed. We should be attacking the country's gas bill before crowing about our energy exports. Why not start building the industry here to use this resource in this country?

Oldtree · 18-07-2012 5:47pm

Must be a combination of the subsidys here and the premiums to be charged to the UK thats driving this! Contracts signed already.

I did like their proposal to underground the line infastructure along roads, begs the question why the ESB can't do that too, or insist on it as a condition for grid connection.

SeanW · 18-07-2012 7:21pm

Underground lines are more expensive to build and maintain, and require chemical treatments that are not environmentally friendly. It also means they'll need to dig up the roads from the Midlands to Dublin to provide maintenance for this thing >_<

In this case, every silver lining has a big dark cloud behind it ...

Oldtree · 19-07-2012 2:41pm

SeanW wrote: »

Underground lines are more expensive to build and maintain, and require chemical treatments that are not environmentally friendly. It also means they'll need to dig up the roads from the Midlands to Dublin to provide maintenance for this thing >_<

In this case, every silver lining has a big dark cloud behind it ...

I had understood that they were indeed more expensive in the short term but not in the long term, therefore companys with shareholders interested in short term returns will not invest for the long term.

I also understood that the plan here was to dig alongside the roads not on the roads itself.

Packet · 28-07-2012 4:02pm

The Element Power http://www.elpower.com/element-power-accepts-first-grid-connection-uk-ireland web site describes it as a grid connection for 3GW that could supply up to 10 Terawatt hours.

10 TW.h spread out over one year is equivalent to a constant 1,141 MW generation capacity [= 10x10^12W.h/(365d*24h.d^-1)]

That implies a capacity factor of 38% (1,141/3000) which is reasonable, particularly for the latest large turbines they say they'll be using.

This page http://www.greenwire.ie/greenwire-project/ on the "Greenwire" project says two interconnectors, each of 2.5GW are planned.
Higher capacity HVDC lines have already been installed elsewhere in the world.

The €1.2 billion in exports per annum looks ambitious but it is pitched as competing against more expensive off-shore wind for connection to the GB grid.

The implied cost for the UK including ROCs is

€1.2 * 10^9 / 10 * 10^9 kW.h = €0.12 per kW.h

Renewable Obligation Certificates

http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/meeting_energy/renewable_ener/renew_obs/renew_obs.aspx

might contribute about €0.04 per kW.h of that.

That puts it at a price level that is fairly competitive particularly when measured against building new conventional generation, if that were an option, which it
isn't as the UK is trying to get to its renewable target.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cost_of_electricity_by_source.

Additionally they claim the cost savings to the UK consumer from this on-shore in Ireland with HVDC undersea over sourcing the power from off-shore wind are €9 billion over 25 years. The UK is also planning a lot of off-shore (e.g. 2.2GW South East of the Isle of Man). They probably want to balance out the types and geographic diversity of the 30 GW nameplate of renewable supply they're trying to get on their grid by 2020.

10 TW.h over 25 years = 250 TW.h

That implies the benefit claimed for it over off-shore per 1kW.h is about €9 /250 = €0.036.

For the above reasons I think it looks like a very good project.

Silvics · 29-07-2012 2:25am

Two years on since planning granted for the largest community windfarm in Ireland, be built in west Clare.....where's the damned grid connection?????

Macha · 29-07-2012 8:56am

Silvics wrote: »

Two years on since planning granted for the largest community windfarm in Ireland, be built in west Clare.....where's the damned grid connection?????

When did they apply for grid connection?

Oldtree · 29-07-2012 1:14pm

Irish renewable energy firm Gaelectric has announced that German turbine provider Enercon will supply turbines for its Carn Hill wind energy project in Co Antrim. Enercon has also been contracted to maintain turbines and to provide civil and electrical engineering infrastructure for the 13.8MW wind farm.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0714/1224320064585.html

http://www.gaelectric.ie/

Have to ask, if its cheaper to get the germans in to do the job, how will it ever be viable to employ the irish in this industry here?

Silvics · 29-07-2012 1:21pm

Several years ago-could be another 5 years before they get one.
Grid connections were given to people first come first served. You did not have to have planing permission for wind farm let alone own a possible site. Wonderful legacy of our Celtic Tiger era is that people holding grid connection offers are selling them as commodities. Know of one person based abroad got one in Clare and offloaded it for 1.1m Euro last year.
Seems like the mandarins don't want genuine local initiative just corporations to own the resource. Pretty sad state of affairs.

Macha · 29-07-2012 8:55pm

Silvics wrote: »

Several years ago-could be another 5 years before they get one.

Which year? Under which gate process? Is it the case that they were refused or their application is still pending?

Silvics wrote: »

Grid connections were given to people first come first served. You did not have to have planing permission for wind farm let alone own a possible site. Wonderful legacy of our Celtic Tiger era is that people holding grid connection offers are selling them as commodities. Know of one person based abroad got one in Clare and offloaded it for 1.1m Euro last year.
Seems like the mandarins don't want genuine local initiative just corporations to own the resource. Pretty sad state of affairs.

My understanding is this is not the case. Eirgrid have a gate process that I certainly don't agree with but it is not a case of 'first come first served'.

Silvics · 30-07-2012 8:31pm

My understanding is that you apply and are allocated a connection. When the quota is allocated you move onto the next gate.
This is the second potential wind farm with full planning in Clare that is still not even started because of this process. Hibernian was granted permission 8 years back with a site, competence, and landowner permission.While they waited for a grid connection, the planning ran out, and they had to go thru the planning application again....NOT a satisfactory state of affairs.
The damned country is ready to implode-let's rescind all grid offers where there is neither site nor planning permission and move those other projects which to all common sense and logic actually have the site and planning permission and stop **** about. There may not be a huge number of jobs created long term but there will be a local boost,and an improvement to balance of payments by way of exports.
The cretins who have designed and administered the process have failed at their task....5 years on after the amazing enthusiasm of the Spirit of Ireland group that spoke about harnessing both wind and hydro power, what the hell has been achieved?

delad · 12-08-2012 2:21pm

So is there any benefit to the people of Ireland for this project? It seems to be a foreign company reaping all the profits, a foreign country reaping the benefits of the output of the wind farm, and most of the jobs in its construction are also likely to be foreign workers. I presume the government will benefit from taxes but after the company deducts all their allowable expenses for the project any tax benefit is likely to be miniscule. Am I correct in thinking this?

Grudaire · 13-08-2012 3:03pm

Damn foreigners.... Coming here.. investing their money.. Selling to other foreigners.. keeping the profits

:rolleyes: Seriously though, that's how most of our multinational export industries work. And refusing permission based on some form protectionism would be both short sighted and against EU legislation.
Benefits would be in the form of tax, and employees living in Ireland.

Silvics · 13-08-2012 3:19pm

How about allowing the people to own the land set up the company, grant them permission and give them a grid connection? Profits stay here. We gave away fisheries, forests are on the block. There's an obvious mindset amongst the mandarins that the little people should stay in their place.

Macha · 13-08-2012 6:29pm

Silvics wrote: »

How about allowing the people to own the land set up the company, grant them permission and give them a grid connection? Profits stay here. We gave away fisheries, forests are on the block. There's an obvious mindset amongst the mandarins that the little people should stay in their place.

Because they aren't the ones who are doing the work. We never gave away our fisheries and it would be good if that myth died a death.

I find the problem in Ireland is the assumption that someone (usually a foreigner) is ripping us off. Almost 40 years in the EU and grubby nationalism is alive and well.

Heroditas · 13-08-2012 8:18pm

Silvics wrote: »

How about allowing the people to own the land set up the company, grant them permission and give them a grid connection? Profits stay here. We gave away fisheries, forests are on the block. There's an obvious mindset amongst the mandarins that the little people should stay in their place.

What's currently done is that the small wind farms enter into offtake agreements with the energy supply companies.
It prevents the need for them to do all the paperwork and negates the need for costly licences.

Silvics · 13-08-2012 8:23pm

Macha wrote: »

Because they aren't the ones who are doing the work. We never gave away our fisheries and it would be good if that myth died a death.

I find the problem in Ireland is the assumption that someone (usually a foreigner) is ripping us off. Almost 40 years in the EU and grubby nationalism is alive and well.

Doing the work? What work? you seriously think that educated asset holding Irish people would NOT be involved in any business decisions? Not to mention doing the footwork to get community acceptance?
The biggest rip off merchants in Ireland are the Irish, and the best thing that happened is that outside blood and fresh ideas have come here.
However, I have no plans to doff the cap and take a pittance for the use of my property. I'd expect an equitable share in any established company and I'd like to reinvest any profits in this state.

Macha · 13-08-2012 9:30pm

Silvics wrote: »

Macha wrote: »

Because they aren't the ones who are doing the work. We never gave away our fisheries and it would be good if that myth died a death.

I find the problem in Ireland is the assumption that someone (usually a foreigner) is ripping us off. Almost 40 years in the EU and grubby nationalism is alive and well.

Doing the work? What work? you seriously think that educated asset holding Irish people would NOT be involved in any business decisions? Not to mention doing the footwork to get community acceptance?
The biggest rip off merchants in Ireland are the Irish, and the best thing that happened is that outside blood and fresh ideas have come here.
However, I have no plans to doff the cap and take a pittance for the use of my property. I'd expect an equitable share in any established company and I'd like to reinvest any profits in this state.

sorry I got confused with another thread. Why are you assuming this is not the case? I have yet to see any evidence of when they applied for a grid connection. My understanding is that they have not. The current permitting system needs reform but I haven't seen any evidence.of one project treated unfairly: its equally crap, long and frustrating for eveyone.

as for the spirit of ireland project, I think they are better at PR than project management. All I see are irregular press releases masquerading as news articles inthe media. Have they even carried out an SEA?

Capt'n Midnight · 16-08-2012 2:20pm

Silvics wrote: »

How about allowing the people to own the land set up the company, grant them permission and give them a grid connection? Profits stay here. We gave away fisheries, forests are on the block. There's an obvious mindset amongst the mandarins that the little people should stay in their place.

Historically speaking Irish people have put money into land and property. Very little into industry.

The turbines on a wind farm are worth a lot more than the land they are on. And once they are erected having turbines on your land doesn't really affect farming that much.

http://www.leinsterexpress.ie/news/business/land-prices-on-increase-1-3555779 Over the entire country, approximately 9,400 acres changed hands during 2011. that's 38Km2 of agricultural land ie. 0.05% of the total area of the country. ( 70,283Km2 )

Farmers are very much in the 'what we have we hold' category, land really only changes hands when someone dies (lots of those who sold land during the boom are buying the same land back at a lower price). Farmers just don't move into other businesses - it's not like PAYE where you can expect several major career changes and having to retrain constantly , where whole industries get outsourced. For farmers it's much easier to let someone else do all the work and then present you with a steady income stream.

Silvics · 16-08-2012 2:40pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Farmers just don't move into other businesses - it's not like PAYE where you can expect several major career changes and having to retrain constantly , where whole industries get outsourced. For farmers it's much easier to let someone else do all the work and then present you with a steady income stream.

Agreed, but that assumes that people don't change. There's a generation out there that are educated, well-travelled and well informed, and who may just be interested in getting involved.

pljudge321 · 16-08-2012 2:53pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

For farmers it's much easier to let someone else do all the work and then present you with a steady income stream.

Not to mention burden the costs and risk in getting the project to planning stage before potentially having permission denied.

Capt'n Midnight · 16-08-2012 4:00pm

Silvics wrote: »

Agreed, but that assumes that people don't change. There's a generation out there that are educated, well-travelled and well informed, and who may just be interested in getting involved.

Farmers traded just 0.05% of the land in this country last year and that includes buying back the same land at a fraction of what it was sold for during the boom.

Farmers in general don't change.

The history of farming for the last 6,000 years is typically 'what we have we hold' and surplus population has to leave the land. In the past this meant moving on to virgin pastures - far from being custodians of the land farmers are historically responsible for most habitat destruction.

Today mechanisation means that there are far few people working on farms. We used to have over 8 million people here, and very few of them were in cities. In the grand scheme of things over the last 150 years almost all of our population has been forced from the land into the cities leaving just the farm owners family. In the US it's worse since farms are owned by people like Monsato.

At times it galls when the ascetics of the countryside are promoted above the needs of city dwellers because those remaining in the countryside are the descendants of those who destroyed it and forced 90% of the population off the land.

/RANT

One is reminded of this
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/this-is-david-lander/episode-guide/series-1/episode-3

12:40 "wildlife's a townie word, pests we call 'em"

Yes there are lots of nice farmers, but we have to put up with the worst (like that individual who nearly brought foot and mouth here)

Silvics · 16-08-2012 7:23pm

Capt'n Midnight wrote: »

Farmers in general don't change.
The history of farming for the last 6,000 years is typically 'what we have we hold' and surplus population has to leave the land. In the past this meant moving on to virgin pastures - far from being custodians of the land farmers are historically responsible for most habitat destruction.

Today mechanisation means that there are far few people working on farms. We used to have over 8 million people here, and very few of them were in cities. In the grand scheme of things over the last 150 years almost all of our population has been forced from the land into the cities leaving just the farm owners family. In the US it's worse since farms are owned by people like Monsato.

At times it galls when the ascetics of the countryside are promoted above the needs of city dwellers because those remaining in the countryside are the descendants of those who destroyed it and forced 90% of the population off the land.

/RANT

One is reminded of this
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/this-is-david-lander/episode-guide/series-1/episode-3

12:40 "wildlife's a townie word, pests we call 'em"

Yes there are lots of nice farmers, but we have to put up with the worst (like that individual who nearly brought foot and mouth here)

Couple of things....re. habitat destruction, let's reforest the entire country with oak/ash/holly /hazel-every square inch possible.
"...aesthetics of the countryside..." what we see out there is effectively man made, but you like it, and at the same time blame farmers for destroying habitat(s) to make it so. We also will have to raze the towns and cities as these would grow exceptionally fine oaks as in years gone by.
The countryside is a workplace for many of us-some **** on their doorstep but I think they are the exception.
We also have a piss poor set of public servants masquerading as "ecologists" and "environmentalists" who lazily blanket prescribe and have a teddy-bear's picnic view of the countryside. Unsurprisingly most come from urban areas.
I could go on but wont.
Some neighbors and I would like to get a wind farm on our farms. We fit all the zoning criteria. Due to the current apportioning of grid connections, local political corruption, and the incredible ineptness of senior civil servants, it will never happen. In fact I reckon I'd get planning permission for a housing estate far more easily and alot faster.

Grudaire · 17-08-2012 10:13am

I think the real problem here is that many farmers etc have a different idea of what is good for the environment, I remember hearing a quote from a farmer trying to justify some form of pollution, it went along the lines of;

'We are the ones that will be affected in the future, why would we do something that was bad'

Which always stuck with me, because the farmer in question completely ignored to provide any argument that might have shown that what they were doing wasn't bad!

Honestly I don't think it's the exception who "sh t on their doorstep" - how bad would Irish rivers be if there was noone going around stopping farmers from polluting them by accident and on purpose?

Silvics · 17-08-2012 10:31am

Fair point. What's your response to the local authorities some of whose public toilets still empty directly into the rivers? People talk about the tyranny of government, so perhaps people who make and enforce the rules should lead by example.

Grudaire · 17-08-2012 10:52am

Fair point,

Although I have the benefit of being able to fling mud at both the Local Authorities, and all polluters!

Oldtree · 09-10-2012 2:03pm

"Wind farms on the bog of Ireland could provide UK electricity

Company behind the £5bn proposals hopes to build more than 700 turbines and transport power in cables beneath Irish Sea
and
The project will not prevent the Republic of Ireland meeting its own carbon target of a 40% cut by 2020."

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2012/oct/08/wind-farms-ireland-uk-electricity?newsfeed=true

Isnt it great that we have a handy valueless BOG for this enterprise, dont they know about slippage at all at all??? :rolleyes:

Oldtree · 23-11-2012 5:15pm

Does installed wind capacity of all wind farms in Ireland count towards our Keyoto targets, even the ones mentioned above with a potentially private network and export undersea cable?

Macha · 23-11-2012 5:48pm

Oldtree wrote: »

Does installed wind capacity of all wind farms in Ireland count towards our Keyoto targets, even the ones mentioned above with a potentially private network and export undersea cable?

I'm not sure about that one but there's also the question of if they count towards our renewable energy target under the Renewable Energy Directive. The method of counting is based on the share of renewables in final energy consumed.

If the energy is consumed elsewhere, ie exported (or even statistically transferred to another country) then it doesn't.

Wind farm for the Midlands

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