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Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

24567…89

Comments

  • #52
    paulaa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭paulaa


    Lailah Black Rabbit wrote: »
    Lets say all thats true, and that I agree with you (not in a million years btw).. But lets pretend... so beggars the question, why doesn't Egypt open its borders and allow aid through?. (I'm going to make the assumption you'll blaim either Israel or the American government on this one, but go ahead all the same).

    It's very simple and well known, Egypt is paid handsomely to support the Israeli regime. I would guess we will see huge changes to this once the puppet Mubarack is gone


  • #53
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Most intelligent people...
    Jumping to such definite conclusions...
    I would urge the less informed amongst us to do the same.
    And yet the post you quoted, only contained the facts as they are now.

    Asinine? Clearly I'm being ridiculous by presenting the concise facts as opposed to granting either side the benifit of doubt. :rolleyes:


  • #54
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    northwest100 wrote: »
    well, in that case, they deserved to die.

    you see the narcissistic nature of isreal and its supporters?
    they can do no wrong...no matter what.

    Nice one!

    You quote a bit of my post out of context,then you put your own meaning on it.

    Typical response from a person who is afraid the real facts will emerge.


  • #55
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Zulu wrote: »
    And yet the post you quoted, only contained the facts as they are now.

    Asinine? Clearly I'm being ridiculous by presenting the concise facts as opposed to granting either side the benifit of doubt. :rolleyes:


    Concise facts according to whom and what references?


  • #56
    paulaa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭paulaa


    T.W.H Byron wrote: »
    Next time I give some money to a homeless person i'll be sure you're not around so that I don't unwittingly provoke you.

    Pull the other one.

    The simple fact is that 10,000 tonnes of aid was being delivered and Israel has acted with cold calculating impunity and killed civilians of different nationalities in international waters. Israel sent in commandos. Not the coast guard. They were being resisted with sticks, according to Israeli media reports, and they responded with sub machine gun fire.

    Suicide by cop? I'll say it once again. INTERNATIONAL WATERS.

    Dress it up all you want but Israel has now hung itself out to dry due to its sheer arrogance.

    That's quite obvious now. The weasel, Netanyahu is now considering not going to the US after this fiasco.

    "Netanyahu mulls cancelling U.S. trip in wake of Gaza flotilla deaths"

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-mulls-cancelling-u-s-trip-in-wake-of-gaza-flotilla-deaths-1.293187


  • #57
    jimi_t2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭jimi_t2


    T.W.H Byron wrote: »
    The simple fact is that 10,000 tonnes of aid was being delivered and Israel has acted with cold calculating impunity and killed civilians of different nationalities in international waters.

    The simple fact is a group of people decided to point 10,000 tonnes of boats loaded with people straight at a military blockade and had been warned repeatedly about doing so. Some of the boats were also flying Turkish flags.

    Seriously, what aid organisation in the world does this? You're making them out to be the Red Cross or something.
    Suicide by cop? I'll say it once again. INTERNATIONAL WATERS.

    Say what you want, they were sailing straight for a military blockade and had been warned about doing so. Repeatedly.

    The only way that Hamas can get substantial numbers of ammunition and weaponry is by sea. Both sides know this and its a serious concern, especially when a floatilla of ships arrives on the coast of a disputed territory on its own remit. This is without ANY recognition or acknowledgement from any credbile international aid agency.

    They were asked to divert course and they refused to do so. There's a number of laws regarding naval engagement and being civilian or ignorant of such, while possibly explaining these actions, does not excuse them.

    When boarded they then (alledgedly) began attacking the soldiers. ''Resisting'' with sticks? You knock a marine out with a 2x4, suddenly there's a spare Israeli machinegun knocking around with traceable ammo. Regardless of where the bullets go afterward or regardless of who's firing them, the deaths will be attributed to the army. Their actions are pretty much par for the course for any western army.

    These people represent no country or agency. They took it upon themselves to do this.


  • #58
    Deep Easterly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,150 ✭✭✭Deep Easterly


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Nice one!

    You quote a bit of my post out of context,then you put your own meaning on it.

    Typical response from a person who is afraid the real facts will emerge.

    So your assuming that what happened isn't real? I suspect you will not see the facts as 'real' until there is a pro-Isreali spin on them.

    Typical of your type.


  • #59
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    I'd have to wonder where the funding for this 'Flotilla' came from?

    I suppose we'll have the usual lot, the Shinners in there.

    Looks like O'Snodaigh was not let join in Cyprus.


  • #60
    paulaa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭paulaa


    jimi_t2 wrote: »
    The simple fact is a group of people decided to point 10,000 tonnes of boats loaded with people straight at a military blockade and had been warned repeatedly about doing so. Some of the boats were also flying Turkish flags.

    Seriously, what aid organisation in the world does this? You're making them out to be the Red Cross or something.



    Say what you want, they were sailing straight for a military blockade and had been warned about doing so. Repeatedly.

    The only way that Hamas can get substantial numbers of ammunition and weaponry is by sea. Both sides know this and its a serious concern, especially when a floatilla of ships arrives on the coast of a disputed territory on its own remit. This is without ANY recognition or acknowledgement from any credbile international aid agency.

    They were asked to divert course and they refused to do so. There's a number of laws regarding naval engagement and being civilian or ignorant of such, while possibly explaining these actions, does not excuse them.

    When boarded they then (alledgedly) began attacking the soldiers. ''Resisting'' with sticks? You knock a marine out with a 2x4, suddenly there's a spare Israeli machinegun knocking around with traceable ammo. Regardless of where the bullets go afterward or regardless of who's firing them, the deaths will be attributed to the army. Their actions are pretty much par for the course for any western army.

    These people represent no country or agency. They took it upon themselves to do this.

    What is Israel doing in Gazan waters anyway ? We are constantly been told that Israel is not occupying Gaza anymore. Would it have anything to do with the large gas reserves that are off the Gazan coast ?


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  • #61
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Deep Easterly wrote: »
    Typical of your type.

    His "type"?.

    Are resorting to vailed insults now?.


  • #62
    Zamboni
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,306 ✭✭✭Zamboni


    jimi_t2 wrote: »
    These people represent no country or agency. They took it upon themselves to do this.

    And death was a suitable punishment?


  • #63
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Deep Easterly wrote: »
    So your assuming that what happened isn't real? I suspect you will not see the facts as 'real' until there is a pro-Isreali spin on them.

    Typical of your type.


    Like any intelligent person, I won't jump to any conclusion until i see all the facts before me.

    You might take some heed of that advice.


  • #64
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    You haven't been listening to the news today, no? I suggest spending 30 mins reviewing which ever news source floats your boat.

    Might be best though to consider one or two international sources (other than fox or Arutz Sheva).


  • #65
    jimi_t2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭jimi_t2


    paulaa wrote: »
    Anything that Israel doesn't like is "provoking" it. Israel is wrong and has acted no better than Somali pirates.

    Thats an interesting analogy.

    Somalian Pirates are group of people unattached to government or agency who take it upon themselves to get on independently owned ships en masse, with their own agenda, and hang about close to the international waters border. They also tend to ignore the orders of any navy.

    This aid flotilla consists of a group of people unattached to government or agency who take it upon themselves to get on independently owned ships en masse, with their own agenda, and hang about close to the international waters border. They also tend to ignore the orders of any navy. Oh, and some of them were flying the flags of an Islamic country.

    Only difference that I can see is that one of them attacks other ships for their booty, while the other is apparently bringing food and ''supplies'' to a Hamas controlled area. 10,000 tonnes of it.

    And fine if you take umbrage with the analogy, I'm not being entirely serious but I'm just trying to show the grey area in which this whole situation resides.

    My only question is what possible justification was there for putting women and children onto these boats and sending them directly at a bunch of warships outside one of the most volatile warzones in the world? Didn't see anyone doing the same for the North Koreans/Insert Country in the last 20 years.


  • #66
    digme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭digme


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Like any intelligent person, I won't jump to any conclusion until i see all the facts before me.

    You might take some heed of that advice.

    fact 1 isrealis tried to get onto someone else's boat in international waters
    fact 2 isrealis murders people on a boat in international waters

    are these suitable enough for you ?


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  • #67
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Lailah Black Rabbit wrote: »
    Are resorting to vailed insults now?.
    I think you'll find the vailed insults started somewhere around here. :(

    Feel free to ignore this though.


  • #68
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Zulu wrote: »
    You haven't been listening to the news today, no? I suggest spending 30 mins reviewing which ever news source floats your boat.

    Might be best though to consider one or two international sources (other than fox or Arutz Sheva).


    Once again jumping to wrong conclusions.

    I have been listening to the news,but prefer to get a balanced view before leaping in and risk making a fool of myself;)

    Don't be depending on Freda Hughes for all your news!


  • #69
    jimi_t2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭jimi_t2


    paulaa wrote: »
    What is Israel doing in Gazan waters anyway ? We are constantly been told that Israel is not occupying Gaza anymore. Would it have anything to do with the large gas reserves that are off the Gazan coast ?

    I'd say its more to do with stopping rockets getting into the country. They can't do a whole fecking lot with the gas if there's incendiary devices flying all over the place.


  • #70
    Memnoch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    Israel have no right to blockade Gaza from receiving aid. Their blockade is illegal.

    Their actions in stopping an aid flotilla in International waters heading for Gazian waters are also ILLEGAL.

    Regardless of the actions of Hamas, Gaza is occupied territory and collective punishment of civilians is illegal under the Fourth Geneva convention. Israel cannot punish the civilian population by denying them aid.

    The boarding of the flotilla by armed troops followed by the murder of innocent civilians is a war crime under international law.


  • #71
    danbohan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    I'd have to wonder where the funding for this 'Flotilla' came from?

    I suppose we'll have the usual lot, the Shinners in there.

    Looks like O'Snodaigh was not let join in Cyprus.


    there were people from fianna fail , labour , fine gael there too my friend , only your nazi friends probably not there ,


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  • #72
    Zulu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Once again jumping to wrong conclusions. I have been listening to the news,...
    So change the channel. Which news report are you waiting for? The one that'll inform us that the flotilla was actually a collection of U-Boats filled with Zombie SS Sturmkommandos looking to rape orphans??? :rolleyes:
    but prefer to get a balanced view before leaping in and risk making a fool of myself;)
    Some people would consider blind ignorance a foolish thing also. I'm not suggesting you're blindly ignorant, but ignoring the basic facts could be construed as blind ignorance


  • #73
    Glenshane Pass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 162 ✭✭Glenshane Pass


    The democratically elected Hamas government has nothing to do with this really. All groups, even those opposed to Hamas have been organising a welcome event to recieve the aid, which has been re-organised to facilitate mass protest. These people are ordinary people, giving up their time for **** conditions on a boat determined to bring aid to an oppressed people. As far as I'm concerned, genuine people support this endeavor, and those who oppose it by derailing and insulting have their own story.

    Such as Makikomi, whose drivel and dogma in support of his Israeli 'buddies' has been commonplace around here. No offence lad, but your own detailed stories of relations with Israelis is going to taint your 'version of the truth' to say the least.
    I'd have to wonder where the funding for this 'Flotilla' came from?

    I suppose we'll have the usual lot, the Shinners in there.

    And this is testament to how little you know. By 'Shinners', presumably you mean Sinn Féin? You think they have money to be giving to this?


  • #74
    jimi_t2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭jimi_t2


    digme wrote: »
    fact 2 isrealis murders people on a boat in international waters
    Murder, as defined in common law countries, is the unlawful killing of another human being with intent (or malice aforethought), and generally this state of mind distinguishes murder from other forms of unlawful homicide (such as manslaughter).

    Its self-defence regardless of their actions. They didn't board that boat with the explicit intention of killing everyone on it. These are marines, the most trained of all military units who specialise in boarding other ships and either disabling them or taking control of them with minimum casualities to either side. The Israeli marine force in particular are incredibly disciplined and, like any elite unit, rarely act out of personal interest or emotion. These are not common grunts.

    Basically ''Murdering'' somebody has connotations outside of the remit of your implication. I'm not being pedantic, it's just simply not murder.

    I'm curious myself as to the definition of what murder is in sharia law countries tbh.


  • #75
    Memnoch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    jimi_t2 wrote: »
    Thats an interesting analogy.
    And fine if you take umbrage with the analogy, I'm not being entirely serious but I'm just trying to show the grey area in which this whole situation resides.

    There is no grey area. Israel have no right to stop aid ships in international waters or for that matter Gazian waters, their actions are illegal and criminal under international law.

    Israel have deliberately restricted the flow of aid into Gaza, regardless of what Hamas may or may not have done, this is illegal and in contravention of the Geneva convention on human rights.


  • #76
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    How anyone can justify killing aid workers is shocking. It wasn't the aid workers that boarded the commando's ships:confused:


  • #77
    paulaa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭paulaa


    jimi_t2 wrote: »
    Thats an interesting analogy.

    Somalian Pirates are group of people unattached to government or agency who take it upon themselves to get on independently owned ships en masse, with their own agenda, and hang about close to the international waters border. They also tend to ignore the orders of any navy.

    This aid flotilla consists of a group of people unattached to government or agency who take it upon themselves to get on independently owned ships en masse, with their own agenda, and hang about close to the international waters border. They also tend to ignore the orders of any navy. Oh, and some of them were flying the flags of an Islamic country.

    Only difference that I can see is that one of them attacks other ships for their booty, while the other is apparently bringing food and ''supplies'' to a Hamas controlled area. 10,000 tonnes of it.

    And fine if you take umbrage with the analogy, I'm not being entirely serious but I'm just trying to show the grey area in which this whole situation resides.

    My only question is what possible justification was there for putting women and children onto these boats and sending them directly at a bunch of warships outside one of the most volatile warzones in the world? Didn't see anyone doing the same for the North Koreans/Insert Country in the last 20 years.

    There is so much wrong in this post I don't know where to start !!

    Do you think these women on this convoy don't have minds of their own ? I would think Nobel Peace Prize winner, Mairead Corrigan is a fairly intelligent woman for one.

    You can try to justify this slaughter of civilians all you like but it won't wash with the vast majority of decent human beings who actually give a damn about the suffering of others.


  • #78
    jimi_t2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭jimi_t2


    Memnoch wrote: »
    Their actions in stopping an aid flotilla in International waters heading for Gazian waters are also ILLEGAL.

    It was a 10,000 tonne flotilla, independent of any aid organisation or country, which was full-steam going at a military blockade outside of a warzone.

    Calling it an ''aid'' flotilla lends them credibility which they haven't earned.

    What international aid or humanitarian organisation condoned their original action?
    Regardless of the actions of Hamas, Gaza is occupied territory and collective punishment of civilians is illegal under the Fourth Geneva convention. Israel cannot punish the civilian population by denying them aid.

    This isn't the Red Cross or MSF. This is a bunch of privately owned boats with people on their own remit, some of them flying Turkish flags, sailing at a military blockade.
    The boarding of the flotilla by armed troops followed by the murder of innocent civilians is a war crime under international law.

    Citation? I've a fair idea of the rules of engagement and naval procedure and I'm not sure I follow your line of reasoning.


  • #79
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    As I understand it the Israelis were quite happy to let the aid in via their own channels, which could very easily have been checked for before and after status by neutral international observers. However couldn't they have used non lethal means to enforce their blockade, like prop foulers or similar, rather than sending in the marines? I genuinely don't think people had to die here.


  • #80
    Glenshane Pass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 162 ✭✭Glenshane Pass


    All ships were checked in the countries they left. Anyone in contact will know the trouble the ship had getting out of Ireland, even. And is anyone seriously suggesting weapons, from Europe, en masse, was the hidden agenda of this innocent flotilla?


  • #81
    jank
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 13,018 ✭✭✭✭jank


    I see the usual middle-east **** feast is already under way here on boards.ie

    Anyway, from my point of view, WHAT THE FCUK were the Israeli's thinking! It is like they want to be hated by everyone. "No one likes us we dont care"
    Shows their neck, but fcuk it they get away with it.

    Also, how people on here can think the killing up to 16 unarmed people in international waters is fair game needs to get their heads examined or at least get a soul. You preach morality about the Israels right to defend itself (which I agree with to an extent) but have no morals when it comes to the other sides suffering.

    Unfortunately killing unarmed people in international waters is not self defence, its murder. No amount of floss, hot air or typing Hamas^345829 will get around that.


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  • #82
    ghostdancer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,539 ✭✭✭ghostdancer


    digme wrote: »
    Intent in international waters?Are you listening to yourself at all?So you murder the civilians before they get to your so called waters is it?Today people got butchered,it's a sick crime.

    is there even any point trying to reason with israel apologists?

    he's already laid out his opinion on the matter clearly, doesn't matter what they were doing, or what they were bringing, or where they were.
    poor little israel gets attacked by hamas, so any actions against those who don't agree with israel 100% is justified.

    the ship could be full of nuns, delivering rice, in international waters, but it's helping israel's enemies, so according to the right-wing israel supporters on here, their murders are perfectly fine.


  • #83
    Deep Easterly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,150 ✭✭✭Deep Easterly


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Like any intelligent person, I won't jump to any conclusion until i see all the facts before me.

    You might take some heed of that advice.


    Now you are assuming that you are "intelligent"? As I said, you will not be satisfied with the facts until they see the murder off innocent people by the Isreali military as justifiable. Taking the advice of someone who has this narrow viewpoint does not sound to me like a very intelligent thing to do.


  • #84
    Glenshane Pass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 162 ✭✭Glenshane Pass


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    As I understand it the Israelis were quite happy to let the aid in via their own channels, which could very easily have been checked for before and after status by neutral international observers.

    The former would defeat the purpose and most likely be destroyed, the latter has been done.


  • #85
    Mahatma coat
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 6,869 ✭✭✭Mahatma coat


    Yes, could someone please explain to me the Legality of the Blockade, for Example

    If I wanted to sail my Boat from Ireland to France I dont see why I need the Permission of the German Navy

    Israel isnt Ocupying Palestine, so why do they need Israeli Permission??

    <Also> as a slight Aside as this really really irks me in these Debates.

    The Rockets dont hit on Israeli soil, they fall on Palestinian Soil Illegaly Occupied by Israel.</>

    So the Somali Pirates should wise up to this, Create a Blockade around a small neighbouring country (For added clout Invade and start Stealing the land and Ethnicly cleansing it) they then announce this blockade to the world, Hey Presto anytime they want to board a ship they Deem it to be a 'Threat' to their Blockade, they can then Board it in International Waters, Kill Shedloads of people and steal -redirect the boat to a 'Safer' port of their choosing- Hey if they do it Well enough the US might give them a bucketload of free Money and weapons.


  • #86
    Glenshane Pass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 162 ✭✭Glenshane Pass


    Deep Easterly wrote: »
    Now you are assuming that you are "intelligent"? As I said, you will not be satisfied with the facts until they see the murder off innocent people by the Isreali military as justifiable. Taking the advice of someone who has this narrow viewpoint does not sound to me like a very intelligent thing to do.

    As I said, anyone who makes such an effort to derail and insult has a story to themselves. FlutterinBull has no doubt another such story, or maybe he is just bored and gets a kick out of being 'against the grain'.

    And everyone stop with the rockets, they have nothing to do with this. Start a new topic on the legality of rockets.


  • #87
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    Glenshane Pass wrote: »
    The former would defeat the purpose and most likely be destroyed, the latter has been done.
    Why would it defeat the purpose, if the aid gets through the aid gets through? Has aid previously been destroyed in this manner?


  • #88
    jimi_t2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭jimi_t2


    paulaa wrote: »
    You can try to justify this slaughter of civilians all you like...

    Where was I justifying anything of the sort?

    I find it just as inherently abhorrent that children and the elderly were present on these boats. Neither side is in the right here, but the ''Pro-Palestinian activists'' are certainly not the angels they are being made out to be.


  • #89
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Amhran Nua wrote: »
    However couldn't they have used non lethal means to enforce their blockade, like prop foulers or similar, rather than sending in the marines? I genuinely don't think people had to die here.


    I think we'd all agree with you there.

    But when a boarding party is attacked by the occupants of these craft when options are left?.

    Someone mentioned "suicide by cop" - I think thats very close to the truth this morning.


  • #90
    Glenshane Pass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 162 ✭✭Glenshane Pass


    Lailah Black Rabbit wrote: »
    I think we'd all agree with you there.

    But when a boarding party is attacked by the occupants of these craft when options are left?.

    Someone mentioned "suicide by cop" - I think thats very close to the truth this morning.

    Don't board it.


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  • #91
    jimi_t2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭jimi_t2


    jank wrote: »
    Also, how people on here can think the killing up to 16 unarmed people in international waters

    Who said anything about unarmed?


  • #92
    Amhran Nua
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,124 ✭✭✭Amhran Nua


    Lailah Black Rabbit wrote: »
    I think we'd all agree with you there.

    But when a boarding party is attacked by the occupants of these craft when options are left?.

    Someone mentioned "suicide by cop" - I think thats very close to the truth this morning.
    Perhaps, but you don't need to board to deploy prop foulers, just sail past them. Failing all else they could have just shot the rudders off.


  • #93
    danbohan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    Glenshane Pass wrote: »
    As I said, anyone who makes such an effort to derail and insult has a story to themselves. FlutterinBull has no doubt another such story, or maybe he is just bored and gets a kick out of being 'against the grain'.


    hes just unhappy with his negative equity ignore him , Europe should for once unite and deport all Israeli ambassadors and close their embassy's for 6 month period as well as inforcing a total ban on all israeli travel to and from europe and a ban on Israeli products


  • #94
    Memnoch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    jimi_t2 wrote: »
    It was a 10,000 tonne flotilla, independent of any aid organisation or country, which was full-steam going at a military blockade outside of a warzone.

    Calling it an ''aid'' flotilla lends them credibility which they haven't earned.

    What international aid or humanitarian organisation condoned their original action?

    They were absolutely an aid flotilla regardless of the IDF or you attempts to obfuscate this. The ships were checked prior to departure, and if the israelis had wanted to check them, they could have, but the Israeli's aren't satisfied with checking aid, they are using the rockets as an excuse to limit the aid to gaza and inflict collective punishment on its civilian population. They are using one illegal act to prop up another and one illegal act to justify another.
    This isn't the Red Cross or MSF. This is a bunch of privately owned boats with people on their own remit, some of them flying Turkish flags, sailing at a military blockade.

    An illegal military blockade in international or gazian waters. Unless these ships are heading for Israeli waters, which they weren't Israel had no right to touch them.
    Citation? I've a fair idea of the rules of engagement and naval procedure and I'm not sure I follow your line of reasoning.

    Please show me the rules of engagement and naval procedure that allow Israel to firstly blockade Gaza, secondly to board civilian aid ships in international waters?

    As far as I'm aware, even the Israeli government aren't disputing the fact that these ships were carrying humanitarian aid, not rockets/missiles/guns/grenades/bombs etc.


  • #95
    jimi_t2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭jimi_t2


    Glenshane Pass wrote: »
    Don't board it.

    Don't sail at a military blockade after being told of the consequences of not stopping.

    Then when this happens, don't go ''resisting'' armed soldiers.

    The last intention of the Israeli marines was going to be to go shooting non-soldiers when the eyes of the world were on them.


  • #96
    paulaa
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭paulaa


    jimi_t2 wrote: »
    I'd say its more to do with stopping rockets getting into the country. They can't do a whole fecking lot with the gas if there's incendiary devices flying all over the place.

    I don't agree with any of that. This is the 4th largest and best equipped army in the world supposidly. It is collective punishment to over 1.5 million trapped in and enclave with no escape.

    It is because Israel didn't like the results of the democratic elections in Gaza and it is also because of the capture of 1 Israeli soldier while over 11,000 Palestinians, including many under the age of 14, are held in Israeli prisions. Many of these are held under "administrative detention", no court cases, no charges have been brought against them.

    It is also imo about the gas reserves which Israel would love to get her hands on. They have already made tentative deals with gas exploration companies in expectation of being able to steal them.

    All that aside, Israel has really shot herself in the foot today and the whole world sees it. They have alienated their one ally in the ME, Turkey. They have shown the world finally what happens to Palestinians on a daily basis.

    Their IDF spokeswoman has just been lying through her teeth on TV and comes across as ridiculous.


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  • #97
    Byron85
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭Byron85


    jimi_t2 wrote: »
    Who said anything about unarmed?


    Sticks < Sub-Machine Guns


  • #98
    ei.sdraob
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,376 ✭✭✭ei.sdraob


    Eight Irish activists on AID ships
    Eight Irish people were travelling on a flotilla of aid ships where 15 people were reportedly shot dead today by Israeli commandos.

    Michael Martin, Foreign Affairs Minister, said consular officials were working to confirm the safety of Irish people caught up in the incident.

    "I am gravely concerned at the reports emerging of the storming of a Turkish ship this morning by Israeli commandos," the minister said.


  • #99
    Glenshane Pass
    Closed Accounts Posts: 162 ✭✭Glenshane Pass


    jimi_t2 wrote: »
    Don't sail at a military blockade after being told of the consequences of not stopping.

    Then when this happens, don't go ''resisting'' armed soldiers.

    The last intention of the Israeli marines was going to be to go shooting non-soldiers when the eyes of the world were on them.

    Again, don't board the ships.
    I'd say its more to do with stopping rockets getting into the country. They can't do a whole fecking lot with the gas if there's incendiary devices flying all over the place.

    Rockets from where, Ireland? LOL. Jeez. Even Israel aren't claiming that.


  • #100
    Memnoch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    jimi_t2 wrote: »
    Don't sail at a military blockade after being told of the consequences of not stopping.

    An illegal military blockade, that has no right to police international waters or gazian waters, giving an illegal directive, threatening illegal consequences to civilian ships carrying humanitarian aid.
    Then when this happens, don't go ''resisting'' armed soldiers.

    The armed soldiers illegally boarded their vessels and opened fire. A handful of people were bound to try and defend themselves.
    The last intention of the Israeli marines was going to be to go shooting non-soldiers when the eyes of the world were on them.

    The IDF has a long and established track record of killing innocent civillians and reporters. The fact that they do not allow journalists access any more goes a long way towards broadcasting their intentions.


  • #101
    jimi_t2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭jimi_t2


    Memnoch wrote: »
    They were absolutely an aid flotilla regardless of the IDF or you attempts to obfuscate this.

    There's a large large number of aid organisations in the world.

    My main question here is why none of these were doing this, rather than a rag-tag bunch of people on a number of ships, some with a distinct Islamic agenda.

    All it takes is one lunatic out of the many hundreds of humanitarians.
    Please show me the rules of engagement and naval procedure that allow Israel to firstly blockade Gaza, secondly to board civilian aid[ ships in international waters?

    Of course its illegal, we all know its illegal, but the facts remain that this was NOT a mission condoned by any government or aid organisation. This was a privately owned flotilla.
    As far as I'm aware, even the Israeli government aren't disputing the fact that these ships were carrying humanitarian aid, not rockets/missiles/guns/grenades/bombs etc.

    And I'm not suggesting otherwise. I'm just trying to temper the alarmist nature of some of both sides.


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