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Israel attacks Aid Flotilla. At least 2 dead

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    #32
    Deep Easterly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,150 ✭✭✭Deep Easterly


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    Memnoch, and others, if you feel tha ignoring opposing viewpoints is the best solution, I'd suggest a public forum is not the best place to be.

    Only person ignoring "opposing viewpoints" is yourself sir. :)


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    #33
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Memnoch wrote: »

    I'm really not interested in turning this into a debate on Israel vs Egypt. .


    Why, because you find it easier to believe the Israeli's are always in the wrong?.

    Imagine allowing unfettered aid into your enemies hands!, only a fool would do that, and Israel is no one's fool.

    I'll refer you back to Col.Kemps address to a UN emergency session after the 2006 Gaza conflict and what he says about aid reaching the Palestinians, and other cool stuff.



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    #34
    Memnoch
    Registered Users Posts: 4,276 ✭✭✭Memnoch


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    Memnoch, and others, if you feel tha ignoring opposing viewpoints is the best solution, I'd suggest a public forum is not the best place to be.

    Every criminal action, act of oppression, genocide, perversion of human rights in history has had its proponents, deniers and defenders. I have no interest in the viewpoints of those who try to justify the murder of the innocents through what is blatently deliberate obfuscation.

    The suggestion that unarmed aid workers from international organisations attacked a fully equipped and armed military force well known for their criminal disregard for human life and provoked them into murdering said workers is so utterly ludicrous that I can't help but conclude that anyone making such an assertion falls into the above category.


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    #35
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    Deep Easterly wrote: »
    Only person ignoring "opposing viewpoints" is yourself sir. :)

    I'm involved in discussion of points. I was referring to people saying they will ignore any opposing viewpoints.


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    #36
    Deep Easterly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,150 ✭✭✭Deep Easterly


    Memnoch wrote: »
    There will always be deniers and people who will try to derail the issue by defending criminal regimes. I'm going to be ignoring them henceforth.

    The fact is that the aid ships we're checked by international organisations before departing for Gaza to make sure there were no weapons on board, precisely so that the Israeli's couldn't use the excuse of provocation.

    It's a beautiful circle. Israel murders journalists and prevents journalists from reporting on it's crimes. People who then defend Israel use this to claim ambiguity in their actions, typical spin and disinformation and it's all nonsense really.

    You'll be comforted to know then that the Isreal military will be issuing a report on this 'incident' soon. :D


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    #37
    jimi_t2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭jimi_t2


    Right, I'm neither Pro nor Against Israel/Palestine. I'm just relaying the facts as I see them.

    10,000 tonnes of a convoy, some flying the flags of an Islamist state not known for its light-handedness, approached a military blockade despite repeated warnings.

    Similar convoys had been there before, and had been refused, so they knew what they were in for.

    The territory they were headed for was controlled by an Islamist extremist group known for suicide bombings and firing rockets into the suburbs of their neighbouring territories.

    The flotilla was boarded (presumably) after they refused to stop going towards the blockade with a lot of very opinionated and presumably vocal people who described themselves as ''Pro-Palestinian activists'' hanging off said boats.

    Seriously, you don't see MSF or the Red Cross trying to run a military blockade flying the flags of other countries, and for bloody good reason. It's provocative and accidents can happen.

    Especially since they were WARNED that this would be the case.

    Fair enough, the warning may have been illegal or immoral, but this, to me, seems to be effective martyrdom.

    I'm all up for having holes poked in my argument, so please work away; just don't be obsequious about it.


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    #38
    yoshytoshy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,305 ✭✭✭yoshytoshy


    If this aid was destined for isreal ,would this have happened ?


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    #39
    paulaa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭paulaa


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    Hamas shells innocent Israelis on a regular basis. What the hell is Israel supposed to do, let them do whatever? They're at war.

    How many Israelis have been killed by the pathetic rockets fired from Gaza in protest at the inhuman conditions Israel has imposed on them ? How many women and children have Israel killed in Gaza and the West Bank ?

    no building materials allowed in to let these people rebuild the homes that Israel bombed to oblivion during the infamous Cast Lead attack, Thousands are still living in tents !!!
    Limited medical supplies, no paper, school books, crayons, chocolate, and thousands of other items, all banned from Gaza for the sake of Israel's "security". Collective punishment is against all International Laws.

    Stop the seige and give these people some hope . All Israel is doing is creating another generation of radicalized youngsters who have seen their families wiped out, who have no freedoms and no future.

    Israel doesn't want peace, it would cost them too much in financial support, loan guarantees etc and they would have to stop stealing land and stick to their own borders.


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    #40
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Folks, why are you intent on side tracking this? Why can't you accept what happened?

    Today Isreali commandos stormed an aid ship in international waters, and slaughtered civilians aboard.

    Thats what happened.


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    #41
    digme
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,584 ✭✭✭digme


    Zulu wrote: »
    Folks, why are you intent on side tracking this? Why can't you accept what happened?

    Today Isreali commandos stormed an aid ship in international waters, and slaughtered civilians aboard.

    Thats what happened.
    Yes your right and i'm finished as I kind of feel there's nothing else to say on this for now.


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    #42
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    Zulu wrote: »
    Folks, why are you intent on side tracking this? Why can't you accept what happened?

    Today Isreali commandos stormed an aid ship in international waters, and slaughtered civilians aboard.

    Thats what happened.
    The folks running this blockade were out to provoke Israel. It was suicide by cop, as another poster has said. Certainly, it could be seen that way, though we need to see what happened on the ship.


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    #43
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    The folks running this blockade..
    ...only in international waters they hadn't run any blockade, so it isn't "suicude by cop" it's "crooked cop killing unarmed innocent civilian".


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    #44
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    paulaa wrote: »
    How many Israelis have been killed by the pathetic rockets fired from Gaza in protest at the inhuman conditions Israel has imposed on them ? How many women and children have Israel killed in Gaza and the West Bank ?

    no building materials allowed in to let these people rebuild the homes that Israel bombed to oblivion during the infamous Cast Lead attack, Thousands are still living in tents !!!
    Limited medical supplies, no paper, school books, crayons, chocolate, and thousands of other items, all banned from Gaza for the sake of Israel's "security". Collective punishment is against all International Laws.

    Stop the seige and give these people some hope . All Israel is doing is creating another generation of radicalized youngsters who have seen their families wiped out, who have no freedoms and no future.

    Israel doesn't want peace, it would cost them too much in financial support, loan guarantees etc and they would have to stop stealing land and stick to their own borders.

    Lets say all thats true, and that I agree with you (not in a million years btw).. But lets pretend... so beggars the question, why doesn't Egypt open its borders and allow aid through?. (I'm going to make the assumption you'll blaim either Israel or the American government on this one, but go ahead all the same).


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    #45
    Nijmegen
    Registered Users Posts: 3,086 ✭✭✭Nijmegen


    Zulu wrote: »
    ...only in international waters they hadn't run any blockade, so they were killed for intent which isn't "suicude by cop" it's "crooked cop killing innocent civilian".

    As already said, trying to stop it closer in becomes even more dangerous. I wouldn't fly a helicopter in range of Hamas coastline. If they shot one down it'd be a bigger battle.


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    #46
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Zulu wrote: »
    Folks, why are you intent on side tracking this? Why can't you accept what happened?

    Today Isreali commandos stormed an aid ship in international waters, and slaughtered civilians aboard.

    Thats what happened.


    Most intelligent people will wait to hear the reports which will be out shortly as to what happened.

    Jumping to such definite conclusions from 2000 kms away,I would assume, is asinine in the extreme.

    The flotilla got plenty of warning and decided to proceed.

    I do not know what exactly happened and am prepared to wait for more definite reports before making a considered judgment.


    I would urge the less informed amongst us to do the same.


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    #47
    danbohan
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,914 ✭✭✭danbohan


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    The folks running this blockade were out to provoke Israel. It was suicide by cop, as another poster has said. Certainly, it could be seen that way, though we need to see what happened on the ship.[/Q

    anybody that knows anything about Israel knows exactly what happened on the ship , they are the child of the mafia don and can do as they please , its time the rest of the world pointed out to usa and israel that they are the real axis of evil


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    #48
    Byron85
    Registered Users Posts: 1,443 ✭✭✭Byron85


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    The folks running this blockade were out to provoke Israel. It was suicide by cop, as another poster has said. Certainly, it could be seen that way, though we need to see what happened on the ship.

    Next time I give some money to a homeless person i'll be sure you're not around so that I don't unwittingly provoke you.

    Pull the other one.

    The simple fact is that 10,000 tonnes of aid was being delivered and Israel has acted with cold calculating impunity and killed civilians of different nationalities in international waters. Israel sent in commandos. Not the coast guard. They were being resisted with sticks, according to Israeli media reports, and they responded with sub machine gun fire.

    Suicide by cop? I'll say it once again. INTERNATIONAL WATERS.

    Dress it up all you want but Israel has now hung itself out to dry due to its sheer arrogance.


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    #49
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    As already said, trying to stop it closer in becomes even more dangerous. I wouldn't fly a helicopter in range of Hamas ...
    Range from what exactly? Are you suggesting that Hamas have AAA or SAM's that only have a maximum range of Israeli territorial waters?


    Because that would be incredibly convenient. Also in the unlikly event that that is in fact the case - it still doens't justify killing civilians in international waters.


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    #50
    paulaa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭paulaa


    Nijmegen wrote: »
    The folks running this blockade were out to provoke Israel. It was suicide by cop, as another poster has said. Certainly, it could be seen that way, though we need to see what happened on the ship.

    It has been on TV since 4.30 this morning. Some of us have seen what happened live. The trigger happy cowboys of Israel opened fire against unarmed civilian humanitarian aid volunteers in International waters where they had no business being anyway.

    Anything that Israel doesn't like is "provoking" it. Israel is wrong and has acted no better than Somali pirates.

    My sympathies go to the families of those murdered, simply because they were trying to bring attention to the inhuman conditions Gazans have been forced to live in and bring some small bit of relief , medical supplies, toys, water purifiers etc to these people.


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    #51
    northwest100
    Closed Accounts Posts: 171 ✭✭northwest100


    FlutterinBantam wrote:
    The flotilla got plenty of warning and decided to proceed.

    well, in that case, they deserved to die.

    you see the narcissistic nature of israel and its supporters?
    they can do no wrong...no matter what.


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    #52
    paulaa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭paulaa


    Lailah Black Rabbit wrote: »
    Lets say all thats true, and that I agree with you (not in a million years btw).. But lets pretend... so beggars the question, why doesn't Egypt open its borders and allow aid through?. (I'm going to make the assumption you'll blaim either Israel or the American government on this one, but go ahead all the same).

    It's very simple and well known, Egypt is paid handsomely to support the Israeli regime. I would guess we will see huge changes to this once the puppet Mubarack is gone


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    #53
    Zulu
    Registered Users Posts: 10,965 ✭✭✭✭Zulu


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Most intelligent people...
    Jumping to such definite conclusions...
    I would urge the less informed amongst us to do the same.
    And yet the post you quoted, only contained the facts as they are now.

    Asinine? Clearly I'm being ridiculous by presenting the concise facts as opposed to granting either side the benifit of doubt. :rolleyes:


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    #54
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    northwest100 wrote: »
    well, in that case, they deserved to die.

    you see the narcissistic nature of isreal and its supporters?
    they can do no wrong...no matter what.

    Nice one!

    You quote a bit of my post out of context,then you put your own meaning on it.

    Typical response from a person who is afraid the real facts will emerge.


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    #55
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    Zulu wrote: »
    And yet the post you quoted, only contained the facts as they are now.

    Asinine? Clearly I'm being ridiculous by presenting the concise facts as opposed to granting either side the benifit of doubt. :rolleyes:


    Concise facts according to whom and what references?


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    #56
    paulaa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭paulaa


    T.W.H Byron wrote: »
    Next time I give some money to a homeless person i'll be sure you're not around so that I don't unwittingly provoke you.

    Pull the other one.

    The simple fact is that 10,000 tonnes of aid was being delivered and Israel has acted with cold calculating impunity and killed civilians of different nationalities in international waters. Israel sent in commandos. Not the coast guard. They were being resisted with sticks, according to Israeli media reports, and they responded with sub machine gun fire.

    Suicide by cop? I'll say it once again. INTERNATIONAL WATERS.

    Dress it up all you want but Israel has now hung itself out to dry due to its sheer arrogance.

    That's quite obvious now. The weasel, Netanyahu is now considering not going to the US after this fiasco.

    "Netanyahu mulls cancelling U.S. trip in wake of Gaza flotilla deaths"

    http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/netanyahu-mulls-cancelling-u-s-trip-in-wake-of-gaza-flotilla-deaths-1.293187


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    #57
    jimi_t2
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,002 ✭✭✭jimi_t2


    T.W.H Byron wrote: »
    The simple fact is that 10,000 tonnes of aid was being delivered and Israel has acted with cold calculating impunity and killed civilians of different nationalities in international waters.

    The simple fact is a group of people decided to point 10,000 tonnes of boats loaded with people straight at a military blockade and had been warned repeatedly about doing so. Some of the boats were also flying Turkish flags.

    Seriously, what aid organisation in the world does this? You're making them out to be the Red Cross or something.
    Suicide by cop? I'll say it once again. INTERNATIONAL WATERS.

    Say what you want, they were sailing straight for a military blockade and had been warned about doing so. Repeatedly.

    The only way that Hamas can get substantial numbers of ammunition and weaponry is by sea. Both sides know this and its a serious concern, especially when a floatilla of ships arrives on the coast of a disputed territory on its own remit. This is without ANY recognition or acknowledgement from any credbile international aid agency.

    They were asked to divert course and they refused to do so. There's a number of laws regarding naval engagement and being civilian or ignorant of such, while possibly explaining these actions, does not excuse them.

    When boarded they then (alledgedly) began attacking the soldiers. ''Resisting'' with sticks? You knock a marine out with a 2x4, suddenly there's a spare Israeli machinegun knocking around with traceable ammo. Regardless of where the bullets go afterward or regardless of who's firing them, the deaths will be attributed to the army. Their actions are pretty much par for the course for any western army.

    These people represent no country or agency. They took it upon themselves to do this.


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    #58
    Deep Easterly
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,150 ✭✭✭Deep Easterly


    FlutterinBantam wrote: »
    Nice one!

    You quote a bit of my post out of context,then you put your own meaning on it.

    Typical response from a person who is afraid the real facts will emerge.

    So your assuming that what happened isn't real? I suspect you will not see the facts as 'real' until there is a pro-Isreali spin on them.

    Typical of your type.


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    #59
    FlutterinBantam
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,575 ✭✭✭✭FlutterinBantam


    I'd have to wonder where the funding for this 'Flotilla' came from?

    I suppose we'll have the usual lot, the Shinners in there.

    Looks like O'Snodaigh was not let join in Cyprus.


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    #60
    paulaa
    Registered Users Posts: 1,184 ✭✭✭paulaa


    jimi_t2 wrote: »
    The simple fact is a group of people decided to point 10,000 tonnes of boats loaded with people straight at a military blockade and had been warned repeatedly about doing so. Some of the boats were also flying Turkish flags.

    Seriously, what aid organisation in the world does this? You're making them out to be the Red Cross or something.



    Say what you want, they were sailing straight for a military blockade and had been warned about doing so. Repeatedly.

    The only way that Hamas can get substantial numbers of ammunition and weaponry is by sea. Both sides know this and its a serious concern, especially when a floatilla of ships arrives on the coast of a disputed territory on its own remit. This is without ANY recognition or acknowledgement from any credbile international aid agency.

    They were asked to divert course and they refused to do so. There's a number of laws regarding naval engagement and being civilian or ignorant of such, while possibly explaining these actions, does not excuse them.

    When boarded they then (alledgedly) began attacking the soldiers. ''Resisting'' with sticks? You knock a marine out with a 2x4, suddenly there's a spare Israeli machinegun knocking around with traceable ammo. Regardless of where the bullets go afterward or regardless of who's firing them, the deaths will be attributed to the army. Their actions are pretty much par for the course for any western army.

    These people represent no country or agency. They took it upon themselves to do this.

    What is Israel doing in Gazan waters anyway ? We are constantly been told that Israel is not occupying Gaza anymore. Would it have anything to do with the large gas reserves that are off the Gazan coast ?


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    #61
    arybvtcw0eolkf
    Closed Accounts Posts: 24,878 ✭✭✭✭arybvtcw0eolkf


    Deep Easterly wrote: »
    Typical of your type.

    His "type"?.

    Are resorting to vailed insults now?.


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