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Israel - Palestine History

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    #92
    sheesh
    Registered Users Posts: 4,080 ✭✭✭sheesh


    iMrApex wrote: »
    Palestine was a country on paper, not in reality. The civil war in British Mandate resulted in a Jewish victory, Israel was declared. They possessed all prior British mandate land apart from the West Bank (Palestinian land according to the partition plan though the international community welcomed this annexation) which was annexed by Jordan and Gaza. Palestine didn't exist, it was on paper.

    And my argument is that you take the land, you take the people, otherwise it is ethnic cleansing which is a war crime.

    Which is fine (not really) if you think you will eventually get away with it.

    just do not be looking towards us in the western world saying 'honestly guys we are just like you' because you are not.

    You speak as if because there was no palestine (the country) there were no people there but there were and while some of it was bought by settlers before the civil war some of it was taken after the original owners fled and were not allowed back.

    iMrApex wrote: »
    Wake up I never said you didn't recognise Israel, I was talking about the border. You may recognise the border as being that of the one in the partition plan.

    Israel can do what they wish on land which is there's.
    that must have been someone else so I'll just ignore this


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    #93
    sheesh
    Registered Users Posts: 4,080 ✭✭✭sheesh


    no reply...

    must be another air raid..

    hope they're ok


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    #94
    iMrApex
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭iMrApex


    sheesh wrote: »
    And my argument is that you take the land, you take the people, otherwise it is ethnic cleansing which is a war crime.

    Which is fine (not really) if you think you will eventually get away with it.

    just do not be looking towards us in the western world saying 'honestly guys we are just like you' because you are not.

    You speak as if because there was no palestine (the country) there were no people there but there were and while some of it was bought by settlers before the civil war some of it was taken after the original owners fled and were not allowed back.



    that must have been someone else so I'll just ignore this

    There is 1,658,000 Arab citizens in Israel representing 20.7% of the country's population


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    #95
    sheesh
    Registered Users Posts: 4,080 ✭✭✭sheesh


    iMrApex wrote: »
    There is 1,658,000 Arab citizens in Israel representing 20.7% of the country's population

    where are the rest of them? the coastal areas were quiet well populated during ww1 are you telling me that after living there for at least 2,000 years the arab population is under 2 million? ........


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    #96
    iMrApex
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭iMrApex


    sheesh wrote: »
    where are the rest of them? the coastal areas were quiet well populated during ww1 are you telling me that after living there for at least 2,000 years the arab population is under 2 million? ........

    In 1920, the League of Nations' Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine stated that there were hardly 700,000 people living in Palestine. By 1948, the population had risen to 1,900,000, of whom 68% were Arabs, and 32% were Jews


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    #97
    sheesh
    Registered Users Posts: 4,080 ✭✭✭sheesh


    iMrApex wrote: »
    In 1920, the League of Nations' Interim Report on the Civil Administration of Palestine stated that there were hardly 700,000 people living in Palestine. By 1948, the population had risen to 1,900,000, of whom 68% were Arabs, and 32% were Jews

    link to that statistic here

    so the arab population has only doubled in the near hundred years since that census. And that was after a war. despite antibiotics better food production etc.


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    #98
    sheesh
    Registered Users Posts: 4,080 ✭✭✭sheesh


    to be continued... I have to go to bed.

    iMrApex goodnight.


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    #99
    iMrApex
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭iMrApex


    sheesh wrote: »
    link to that statistic here

    so the arab population has only doubled in the near hundred years since that census. And that was after a war. despite antibiotics better food production etc.

    The population of England was 27 million in 1891, in 2011 it was 53 million. The population doubled in 120 years, you get my point.


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    #100
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    iMrApex wrote: »
    Palestine was a country on paper, not in reality. The civil war in British Mandate resulted in a Jewish victory, Israel was declared. They possessed all prior British mandate land apart from the West Bank (Palestinian land according to the partition plan though the international community welcomed this annexation) which was annexed by Jordan and Gaza. Palestine didn't exist, it was on paper.

    Wake up I never said you didn't recognise Israel, I was talking about the border. You may recognise the border as being that of the one in the partition plan but that is not the border in reality.

    Israel can do what they wish on land which is there's, they can't steal Palestinian land when it doesn't exist.


    This is untrue. The fact that there is no Palestinian state does not give Israel any right to the land.

    Please respond to these questions -

    If you are against Israeli colonisation why did you state

    "What do I think should be done with Palestinians? They are free to do what they want. Continue to live under Israeli rule, move to Jordan / Egypt, etc." ?

    Then why do you keep referring to the occupied territories as if it were Israeli territory and saying Israel has a right to build there?


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    #101
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    iMrApex wrote: »
    Israel can do what they wish on land which is there's, they can't steal Palestinian land when it doesn't exist.

    Again, this is a nonsense, and that won't change with repetition.

    "The establishment of settlements in the West Bank violates international humanitarian law which establishes principles that apply during war and occupation. Moreover, the settlements lead to the infringement of international human rights law.
    The Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits an occupying power from transferring citizens from its own territory to the occupied territory (Article 49). The Hague Regulations prohibit an occupying power from undertaking permanent changes in the occupied area unless these are due to military needs in the narrow sense of the term, or unless they are undertaken for the benefit of the local population."
    http://www.btselem.org/settlements/international_law

    "According to a report released late last year by the Israeli campaign group Peace Now, Mr Zidane is not alone.

    Nearly 40% of the Jewish settlements in the West Bank are built on privately owned Palestinian land, the report states. Peace Now accuses the government of building settlements on land that has been "effectively stolen".

    Under international law, all Israel's settlements - home to about 430,000 Jews - in the West Bank and East Jerusalem are illegal, although Israel disputes this
    The significance of the Peace Now report is that it calls into question whether most Jewish settlements in the West Bank are legal under Israeli law.
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/6181119.stm


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    #102
    sheesh
    Registered Users Posts: 4,080 ✭✭✭sheesh


    iMrApex wrote: »
    The population of England was 27 million in 1891, in 2011 it was 53 million. The population doubled in 120 years, you get my point.
    you're not comparing like with like there at all, in that time frame england fought 2 world wars in that time having millions replaced by inward immigration. I'm saying the Arab population should be much higher. in 1934 the population of Egypt was 15 million it is now 82 million.


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    #103
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    iMrApex wrote: »
    The first shots of the civil war were fired by Arabs though both sides can be to blame for starting the civil war. Answer me this, if the Arabs in the British Mandate had "won", with the help of the Arab Coalition, and created a Palestinian state in British Mandate terrirtory what would be your stance now?

    Firstly it was not a civil war, it was an anti-colonial war, as recently arrived Zionist settlers were the ones who started the conflict, when they started arriving with the express intent of removing the existing non-Jewish populace (already provided several quotes showing this clear intent). Just, because Zionists had an extremist interpretation of the Bible doesn't make it a civil war, or that the land was there by god given right. The conflict started once Zionists settlers arrived. The Arab didn't fire the first shot, no more than Native Americans fired the first "shot", when resisting European colonists.

    I already answered that Israel should not have been created in the first place, as I don't agree with colonialism, but seeing as its there now, with millions living there, its moot point, about what may or may not have happened in the past. Israel is there now, but they have 0 rights to Palestinian land outside there borders.
    iMrApex wrote: »
    Not once did I say that.

    It seems to be the logical conclusion ultimately (albeit done via "weasel" words), and btw Palestinians can't do what they want. There largely stateless, which limits there options a great deal. You seem to be largely suggesting that the Palestinians either leave, or accept statelessness, while Israel rules over there lives, and quite frankly, that is disturbing, and I do sense a hint of racist undertones to what your saying in this regard, as you seem to suggest that the Palestinians can do what they want, accept assert there rights to have there own state, or even equal rights in a singular state, as you seem to believe in the concept of might make right.

    Quick question, why shouldn't the Palestinians keep fighting til they get there land back? Who says they need to give up? If might make right, its just a recipe for eternal war, with everyone fight to take the land back over and over again, seeing as whoever wins get the land. You world view is just a recipe for disaster and forever war, and is just silly.
    iMrApex wrote: »
    Also, this is extremely relevant. The US along with the UK approved of the annexation of "Palestinian land" into Jordan. What's changed? Why can Jordan annex it and Israel can't?

    UN Resolution 242 is what has changed, its only been mentioned several times already. You continued deliberate ignorance of this fact is astonishing.

    Also, the Israeli government wants to keep the Palestinians stateless. If Israel wants the land, then they need to give the Palestinians citizenship, and then repatriate the millions of Palestinian refugees, seeing as there taking there land. So, that means either a bi-national state, or a singular secular state, either way Zionism as it is now would be finished.


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    #104
    ftakeith
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,251 ✭✭✭ftakeith


    Gaza and the West Bank are enclosed prisons or Ghettos like the Warsaw's ones and the Lodz ghetto in Poland between 1940-44

    Israel will never be brought into account because of the USA

    Al Jazzera English is the only news channel that is balanced from both sides


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    #105
    Tilikum
    Closed Accounts Posts: 994 ✭✭✭Tilikum


    I've always wanted to know the history behind Palestine/Israel.

    Thanks to everyone in this thread, it's clear to me now which side is completely in the wrong.


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    #106
    iMrApex
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭iMrApex


    wes wrote: »
    Also, the Israeli government wants to keep the Palestinians stateless

    There is 1,658,000 Arab citizens in Israel representing 20.7% of the country's population. The state of Israel is of the view that only territories captured in war from “an established and recognized sovereign” are considered occupied territories. Wes you seem to think that suddenly Jewish people began to show up in the British Mandate after WW2, you do realise there was already a large Jewish population there?


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    #107
    Nodin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 46,938 ✭✭✭✭Nodin


    iMrApex wrote: »
    There is 1,658,000 Arab citizens in Israel representing 20.7% of the country's population. The state of Israel is of the view that only territories captured in war from “an established and recognized sovereign” are considered occupied territories. Wes you seem to think that suddenly Jewish people began to show up in the British Mandate after WW2, you do realise there was already a large Jewish population there?

    That's nice. Convenient too. Nobody else takes that view, however.


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    #108
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    iMrApex wrote: »
    There is 1,658,000 Arab citizens in Israel representing 20.7% of the country's population.

    Its amazing how selective you are with your facts. Your clearly well aware of the millions of stateless Palestinians in the occupied territories, and not to mention all those refugees as well.

    By denying the Palestinians a state, Israel is making them stateless. Its amazing, that you have chosen to ignore this. Its just completely puzzling to me, how you can keep what is an absurd and easily disproven argument.
    iMrApex wrote: »
    The state of Israel is of the view that only territories captured in war from “an established and recognized sovereign” are considered occupied territories.

    Wow, the state that is taken someones else land, thinks it ok. Your taking the piss right? Again, UN resolution 242, the land does not belong to them. No one else in the world, not even the bloody US recognizes Israels claim.
    iMrApex wrote: »
    Wes you seem to think that suddenly Jewish people began to show up in the British Mandate after WW2, you do realise there was already a large Jewish population there?

    You are being once again being selective with your time line. Zionist colonists arrived from the late 1800s onwards. As I have shown earlier with a clear intent of removing the Palestinians. I provided a quote that predates World War 2 by decades in one case. When, Israel was created, the vast majority of the population were recently arrived colonists, if you look at the population records, even with the colonists being counted, Palestinians were very much the majority.

    What Zionists did to Palestinians is no different to what was done to Native American's by Europeans. It was a colonial project from the start, and claims via extremists takes on the Bible aren't worth anything.

    Now, you clearly aware of all these facts, but for some reason choose to ignore them, and I am honestly baffled.


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    #109
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    iMrApex wrote: »
    The state of Israel is of the view that only territories captured in war from “an established and recognized sovereign” are considered occupied territories.

    See that would be personal supposition on the part of Israel and as a nation they are quite partial to a bit of that . but it's irrelevant. It doesn't matter how your neighbours got there nor how long they have been there or why they are there or how many of them are there or whatever .what matters is that they are your neighbours. and you don't bulldoze your neighbours off their property then steal their stuff for any reason whatsoever be it real or imagined. Surely you have the basic mental faculty required to process that concept I mean you do right you have too?..


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    #110
    iMrApex
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭iMrApex


    WakeUp wrote: »
    we live in a realist world.

    As I've said before, we live in a realist world and this is what is real:
    SELxlkh.jpg

    You can argue all you want in favour of Palestine but that map is what is real. Palestine doesn't exist, the country we live in doesn't recognise that state of Palestine. Both sides have committed countless crimes against each other.


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    #111
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    iMrApex wrote: »
    As I've said before, we live in a realist world and this is what is real:

    UN resolution 242 is real. Millions of Palestinians in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza, who are not going anywhere are real. You concept of realism, is rather unreal, and borderline delusional.

    In reality maps change all the time (btw no other country recognizes that map), and I think its time that Zionists except that there dream of a Greater Israel is just that, a dream.
    iMrApex wrote: »
    You can argue all you want in favour of Palestine but that map is what is real. Palestine doesn't exist, the country we live in doesn't recognise that state of Palestine. Both sides have committed countless crimes against each other.

    Interesting that you say that. No one, not a single country in the world recognizes Israels claim to East Jerusalem or the West Bank. You keep talking about what is real, but you don't care about realism at all. You ignore anything that doesn't reinforce you world view, and when challenged and shown to be factually incorrect, you just make a statement basically claiming your right regardless.

    Sorry, but you have no sense of realism. Simply put, the map you posted is a lie, created by violent extremists, who want to make it fact via murder and ethnic cleansing, now that is the reality of the map you post.


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    #112
    iMrApex
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭iMrApex


    wes wrote: »
    UN resolution 242 is real. Millions of Palestinians in the West Bank, East Jerusalem and Gaza, who are not going anywhere are real. You concept of realism, is rather unreal, and borderline delusional.

    In reality maps change all the time (btw no other country recognizes that map), and I think its time that Zionists except that there dream of a Greater Israel is just that, a dream.



    Interesting that you say that. No one, not a single country in the world recognizes Israels claim to East Jerusalem or the West Bank. You keep talking about what is real, but you don't care about realism at all. You ignore anything that doesn't reinforce you world view, and when challenged and shown to be factually incorrect, you just make a statement basically claiming your right regardless.

    Sorry, but you have no sense of realism.

    I have no sense of realism? You continuously talk about a pieces of paper that say one thing while I show how the world really is through that map.


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    #113
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    iMrApex wrote: »
    I have no sense of realism? You continuously talk about a pieces of paper that say one thing while I show how the world really is through that map.

    Your map is also a piece of paper, that no other country in the world recognizes. The map is a lie created by people, who want to make it reality via murder, and ethnic cleansing.

    UN resolution 242 is recognized by every country in the World that isn't Israel.

    So again, you have 0 sense of realism, you present a map that only 1 country recognizes, and call it reality, and then call a UN resolution that is accept by everyone except Israel a piece of paper. Sorry, but what your saying is a delusion, and most certainly not realism, and quite frankly your usage of the term is bizarre and nonsensical.


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    #114
    sheesh
    Registered Users Posts: 4,080 ✭✭✭sheesh


    iMrApex wrote: »
    There is 1,658,000 Arab citizens in Israel representing 20.7% of the country's population. The state of Israel is of the view that only territories captured in war from “an established and recognized sovereign” are considered occupied territories. Wes you seem to think that suddenly Jewish people began to show up in the British Mandate after WW2, you do realise there was already a large Jewish population there?

    76,000 in settlements at the start of the british mandate mainly from europe. source


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    #115
    iMrApex
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭iMrApex


    wes wrote: »
    Your map is also a piece of paper, that no other country in the world recognizes. The map is a lie created by people, who want to make it reality via murder, and ethnic cleansing.

    UN resolution 242 is recognized by every country in the World that isn't Israel.

    So again, you have 0 sense of realism, you present a map that only 1 country recognizes, and call it reality, and then call a UN resolution that is accept by everyone except Israel a piece of paper. Sorry, but what your saying is a delusion, and most certainly not realism, and quite frankly your usage of the term is bizarre and nonsensical.

    How can you say that map isn't real? Israel control all of that land, right now there is thousands upon thousands of Israeli soldiers in that land. You tell an Israeli soldier that he has no right to be there and he'll laugh right into your face. You're being delusional, step into reality.


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    #116
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    iMrApex wrote: »
    As I've said before, we live in a realist world and this is what is real:
    SELxlkh.jpg

    You can argue all you want in favour of Palestine but that map is what is real. Palestine doesn't exist, the country we live in doesn't recognise that state of Palestine. Both sides have committed countless crimes against each other.

    But am I arguing in favour of Palestine. if you're unclear as to what the answer is then have a read back over my posts. or stop being obtuse. but please do one . youre full of "facts" and statements so on you're being asked some questions so man the phuck up and answer them, please. my "argument" has you have put it, is that bulldozing your neighbours off their property and stealing it , for whatever reason you care to put forward, is not only wrong but cruel, nasty, despicable and deplorable. and a whole lot more. and no country or people should act in that way toward their neighbours. I'm asking you do you have the ability to comprehend that??..is very simple. You aren't giving me a straight answer and by doing so leaving yourself open - should I read something into that?...


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    #117
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    iMrApex wrote: »
    How can you say that map isn't real? Israel control all of that land, right now there is thousands upon thousands of Israeli soldiers in that land.

    I never denied the existence of Israels colonial project, but the fact of the matter is that there are millions of Palestinians who are not going anywhere.
    iMrApex wrote: »
    You tell an Israeli soldier that he has no right to be there and he'll laugh right into your face.

    Now, now, I would probably be shot in the face, or if I am lucky beaten half to death.
    iMrApex wrote: »
    How
    You're being delusional, step into reality.

    You seem to think that maps are permanent, and that is laughable. You deny facts that don't suit you, to support a claim made by murderous extremists.


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    #118
    iMrApex
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭iMrApex


    "War doesn't determine who is right, only who is left". In this case it has clearly done that. I have said each side has treated each other horrendously and committed countless crimes against each other. Let us say that there was never any wars between the two sides, I would support having two states. You have to understand I can't support having two states after both sides went to war with each other breaking international law. Israel shouldn't put to blame because they came out on top.

    If Palestine came out on top, I would support Palestine as the two sides both went to war fully knowing the consequences of their actions.


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    #119
    wes
    Registered Users Posts: 11,747 ✭✭✭✭wes


    iMrApex wrote: »
    You have to understand I can't support having two states after both sides went to war with each other breaking international law.

    You clearly could care less about International law, after making it very clear you reject UN resolution 242, so to invoke International law to justify your position, while ignoring it, when it doesn't suit your world view. Once again your position is simply delusion and nothing more.


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    #120
    iMrApex
    Registered Users Posts: 106 ✭✭iMrApex


    wes wrote: »
    You clearly could care less about International law, after making it very clear you reject UN resolution 242, so to invoke International law to justify your position, while ignoring it, when it doesn't suit your world view. Once again your position is simply delusion and nothing more.

    The Arab Higher Committee was confident and decided to prevent the set-up of the UN-backed partition plan. In an announcement made to the UN Secretary-General on 6 February 1947, they declared:

    "The Palestinian Arabs consider any attempt by Jewish people or by whatever power or group of power to establish a Jewish state in an Arab territory to be an act of aggression that will be resisted by force"

    Let us say that there was never any wars between the two sides, I would support having two states. You have to understand I can't support having two states after both sides went to war with each other with intentions of completely destroying one another. Israel shouldn't put to blame because they came out on top.

    If Palestine came out on top, I would support Palestine as the two sides both went to war fully knowing the consequences of their actions.

    I'll provide another example, let us say when India was partitioned Pakistan immediately launched an invasion against India. India repelled the invasion and continued into Pakistani territory occupying the whole country and annexing it. Would Pakistan have a right to argue?


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    #121
    WakeUp
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,823 ✭✭✭WakeUp


    iMrApex wrote: »
    "War doesn't determine who is right, only who is left". In this case it has clearly done that. I have said each side has treated each other horrendously and committed countless crimes against each other. Let us say that there was never any wars between the two sides, I would support having two states. You have to understand I can't support having two states after both sides went to war with each other breaking international law. Israel shouldn't put to blame because they came out on top.

    If Palestine came out on top, I would support Palestine as the two sides both went to war fully knowing the consequences of their actions.

    Reading this it would appear you haven't a clue what your position is , but really deep down , I think you do . The above post would pretty much contradict most of what you have put forward thus far , it seems confused and flippant and most contradictory. and you can't or won't admit to the obvious fact that bulldozing people of their property and taking it is a wrong cruel nasty thing to be doing . so what am I missing?..


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