Call for State schools to accommodate Islamic beliefs

gallag · 25-09-2014 12:12pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

How are you showing me the "majority of the ones"? You are showing what a few idiots on a forum think. Are you saying that the comments in AH are a positive reflection of Irish society?

I am showing you most Muslim's on most muslim boards hold these views, answer my questions please, why are the more extreme view's so over represented in the online muslim community? where are the moderates? and yes reading AH would tell you a lot about wider irish society, for example if I posted that thread I linked from that muslim forum about 60 ways to keep your man happy I would soon learn by the replys that women had a lot more respect and equality in irish society!

gallag · 25-09-2014 12:12pm

alastair wrote: »

'Fraid not. The majority of views there are pretty unremarkable.

How did you read it so quick? two days I spent reading it to form my opinion!

alastair · 25-09-2014 12:13pm

gallag wrote: »

I am showing you most Muslim's on most muslim boards hold these views

Except, you're not.

alastair · 25-09-2014 12:15pm

gallag wrote: »

How did you read it so quick? two days I spent reading it to form my opinion!

I scanned it. A majority of abhorrent views should be easy enough to discern. If it took two days to form a judgement, it doesn't sound like you found any sort of majority of those views either.

gallag · 25-09-2014 12:18pm

alastair wrote: »

I scanned it. A majority of abhorrent views should be easy enough to discern. If it took two days to form a judgement, it doesn't sound like you found any sort of majority of those views either.

So in your world scanning it will form a more reasonable view than reading it in depth? what about the threads I have already linked?

Timberrrrrrrr · 25-09-2014 12:21pm

gallag wrote: »

So in your world scanning it will form a more reasonable view than reading it in depth? what about the threads I have already linked?

According to you the majority of posters are posting radical views. A scan of the site and randomly clicking into threads and posts shows this to be untrue. I have opened about 40 posts and have come across one that i would consider to be meh at best.

alastair · 25-09-2014 12:22pm

gallag wrote: »

So in your world scanning it will form a more reasonable view than reading it in depth? what about the threads I have already linked?

Scanning it for 'a majority of abhorrent views' should be more sufficient. If you're arguing that filtering through, seeking out a minority of posts that you don't like equates to a majority view of that forum/community, then you're being disingenuous.

gallag · 25-09-2014 12:51pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

According to you the majority of posters are posting radical views. A scan of the site and randomly clicking into threads and posts shows this to be untrue. I have opened about 40 posts and have come across one that i would consider to be meh at best.

then you and alastair are not doing it right! I will try to explain, if I say "most people on that forum hold radical views" and you read it and only see threads about "what isp do you use" or "favourite brand of chocolate" then you have not disproved my assertion, you may have proved that most threads are not about a controversial topic but even if there are ten treads about "what oil for my car" what if there is one about "should people who leave our religion be executed" and most of the people who also posted in the mundane threads mostly agree that they should be executed then yes most people in that forum hold radical views, do you understand?

alastair · 25-09-2014 12:56pm

gallag wrote: »

then you and alastair are not doing it right! I will try to explain, if I say "most people on that forum hold radical views" and you read it and only see threads about "what isp do you use" or "favourite brand of chocolate" then you have not disproved my assertion, you may have proved that most threads are not about a controversial topic but even if there are ten treads about "what oil for my car" what if there is one about "should people who leave our religion be executed" and most of the people who also posted in the mundane threads mostly agree that they should be executed then yes most people in that forum hold radical views, do you understand?

Ah right. So, rather than reading abhorrent views into the actual content of the site, you've instead employed some manner of alternative measure? Where's this thread where the majority of posters on the forum agree with the execution of apostates?

Timberrrrrrrr · 25-09-2014 1:32pm

gallag wrote: »

then you and alastair are not doing it right! I will try to explain, if I say "most people on that forum hold radical views" and you read it and only see threads about "what isp do you use" or "favourite brand of chocolate" then you have not disproved my assertion, you may have proved that most threads are not about a controversial topic but even if there are ten treads about "what oil for my car" what if there is one about "should people who leave our religion be executed" and most of the people who also posted in the mundane threads mostly agree that they should be executed then yes most people in that forum hold radical views, do you understand?

So to save us a couple of days reading you should be able to easily point us to this thread where the majority of posters on that site post messages condoning the murder of all non Muslims.

gallag · 25-09-2014 3:41pm

alastair wrote: »

Ah right. So, rather than reading abhorrent views into the actual content of the site, you've instead employed some manner of alternative measure? Where's this thread where the majority of posters on the forum agree with the execution of apostates?

that was an example, here are a few threads that I feel show a majority of radical views

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?417642-Reporting-Muslim-children-and-family-to-the-Home-Office
someone asking if a muslim family who smuggled children into the country should be reported, more say no with reasoning like
"You're thinking of betrying muslims and breaking up a muslim family, and possibly sending the children to be raised by kuffar? breaking the laws of Allah is more desirable to you than breaking kaafir laws?

And you think anyone here would approve of that? itaqillah and mind your own business."

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?417660-BREAKING-NEWS-Raqqa-Under-Bombardment-by-US-5-Arab-States

interesting that the majority of Muslims in this thread are against airstikes on ISIS targets, a lot of anti West views espoused also.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?407106-Refuting-the-Why-arent-the-mujahideen-fighting-the-jews-logic&highlight=apostates

more trash

http://www.ummah.com/forum/search.php?searchid=4471750

most would see apostates killed.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?400143-Why-it-is-correct-to-kill-apostates-in-islam&highlight=apostates

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?322593-Ofcourse-Apostates-Should-be-Killed&highlight=apostates

Nodin · 25-09-2014 4:16pm

gallag wrote: »

Muslims have no intention of integration, they are pretty clear about it! they mostly hate non Muslims and all believe that the day will come where Allah will come back and lead them to murder all Jews and non believers.

A rather silly sectarian generalisation.

alastair · 25-09-2014 4:32pm

gallag wrote: »

that was an example, here are a few threads that I feel show a majority of radical views

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?417642-Reporting-Muslim-children-and-family-to-the-Home-Office
someone asking if a muslim family who smuggled children into the country should be reported, more say no with reasoning like
"You're thinking of betrying muslims and breaking up a muslim family, and possibly sending the children to be raised by kuffar? breaking the laws of Allah is more desirable to you than breaking kaafir laws?

And you think anyone here would approve of that? itaqillah and mind your own business."

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?417660-BREAKING-NEWS-Raqqa-Under-Bombardment-by-US-5-Arab-States

interesting that the majority of Muslims in this thread are against airstikes on ISIS targets, a lot of anti West views espoused also.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?407106-Refuting-the-Why-arent-the-mujahideen-fighting-the-jews-logic&highlight=apostates

more trash

http://www.ummah.com/forum/search.php?searchid=4471750

most would see apostates killed.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?400143-Why-it-is-correct-to-kill-apostates-in-islam&highlight=apostates

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?322593-Ofcourse-Apostates-Should-be-Killed&highlight=apostates

Again - no evidence of a majority view in any of those. As I say - you're filtering through looking for posts that are objectionable, and ignoring the fact that they represent only a small minority on that forum (let alone the entire religion).

btw- I suspect that if you asked an Irish forum what you should do about an Irish illegal immigrant / non-documented family in the US, you wouldn't get too many advocates of reporting them to the authorities.

gallag · 25-09-2014 5:04pm

alastair wrote: »

Again - no evidence of a majority view in any of those. As I say - you're filtering through looking for posts that are objectionable, and ignoring the fact that they represent only a small minority on that forum (let alone the entire religion).

btw- I suspect that if you asked an Irish forum what you should do about an Irish illegal immigrant / non-documented family in the US, you wouldn't get too many advocates of reporting them to the authorities.

man, you don't seem to get it, ill try and explain again, I said that the majority of people on that forum had views that we in the west could not reconcile, I did not say most threads are radical, again say nine out of ten threads are about favourite ice cream flavour etc and one out ten was about how to deal with apostates now say that the majority of people who replied to the ice cream threads also posted in the apostates thread that they believed the punishment for changing religion should be death then would you not agree that most people on that forum had radical views? If storm front had more fluff threads about favourite ice cream or Internet provider than "I hate black people" would you argue that the site was not mostly an intolerant sh1t hole?

also, did you not read my post correctly? Your analogy makes no sense, it wasn't just an illegal family, they smuggled children that were not theirs into the UK, and most were against reporting incase the children went to infidels ffs I would imagine most irish people would have a problem with that!

FreudianSlippers · 25-09-2014 5:21pm

gallag wrote: »

Can you find me any online conversations happening showing Christians relishing the prospect of murdering the non believers? what if the bible also has some ridiculous nonsense in it, the Christians are not as hard core with taking all this crap literally, at least not in the last few decades.

3 words: westboro baptist church.

alastair · 25-09-2014 5:28pm

gallag wrote: »

man, you don't seem to get it,

Oh, I get it alright,.

gallag wrote: »

ill try and explain again, I said that the majority of people on that forum had views that we in the west could not reconcile,

Actually you said that:

most Muslim's on the site relish the prospect of killing the non believers

and that they held

majority views that most western people would find abhorrent

Now - you've certainly not demonstrated that in your presentation of the threads on that forum. Which tbh - isn't very surprising.

gallag wrote: »

I did not say most threads are radical, again say nine out of ten threads are about favourite ice cream flavour etc and one out ten was about how to deal with apostates now say that the majority of people who replied to the ice cream threads also posted in the apostates thread that they believed the punishment for changing religion should be death then would you not agree that most people on that forum had radical views?

Ice cream aside, you haven't shown that any sort of majority on that forum favour death for apostates. You've shown that a few posters within a much larger cohort of forum poster believe so, and that this, in the broader community of muslims, becomes a much smaller minority. If you want to prove a point that this forum has a minority of bigoted posters, then job well done, but you didn't have to venture far to find the same sort of minority bigotry evident in forums, populated with a majority who don't share those views.

gallag wrote: »

If storm front had more fluff threads about favourite ice cream or Internet provider than "I hate black people" would you argue that the site was not mostly an intolerant sh1t hole?

If my auntie was a man, she'd be my uncle. You've linked to a forum that reflects a group with very little interest in the sort of abhorrent views you claimed.

gallag wrote: »

also, did you not read my post correctly? Your analogy makes no sense, it wasn't just an illegal family, they smuggled children that were not theirs into the UK, and most were against reporting incase the children went to infidels ffs I would imagine most irish people would have a problem with that!

The post made clear the children were family members. Most posters were not against reporting in case they were taken into non-muslim care - there was one singular poster raised that as a concern. One. :rolleyes:

gallag · 25-09-2014 5:47pm

Nodin wrote: »

A rather silly sectarian generalisation.

Ok, a billion Muslims and it's impossible to find a Islam based forum where the general consensus is its good to integrate? Here ill do the leg work for you!

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?11030-quot-moderates-quot-trying-to-make-it-look-as-if-islam-can-integrate-into-the-west&highlight=integrate

"Islam is a complete way of life and a perfect system. Why should it try to integrate into something which is imperfect and speaks for itself that it isnt working. There is no compromise is our deen, the truth never needs to compromise.

Islam cannot integrate with the west, islam is a fundimentally opossed to most things western."

"It should be the morally corrupt west that should integrate with Islam!"

"It's your call sitar, if you want to make the priciples of the kuffar your primary principles and sharia your secondary principle then don't preach this as islam becasue this is NOT islam. Islam is simple and starightforward but when muslims get fooled by the kuffar propaganda they start portaryaing things which are completley against islam as islam.

And what is this about hating the west and still living there? This argument seems to be used by kuffar more and more recently. There ar so many answers to this where do you even want me to start. Heres a few

1:Where do you want us to migrate to, there is no khilafah inn the world today

2: for those that are plannign migration somewhere, it's not a simple matter that you pack your bags and leave all your family here, it needs time and planning and for all you know the person you criticise could be in the process of planning and preparing for migration.

3: Live here to detroy the west from within, no doubt there are many muslims doing this

4: work here and avoid taxes as much as you can and send as much money as u can to mujahideen, becasue the money here as far greaer value than the rupees and dinars of muslim lands

5: Do dawah to the kuffar"

British Muslims Declare They Will Never Integ…: http://youtu.be/bOJeaoZOC5s

Merkel says German multicultural society has failed http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451

The Horrific Muslim Infiltration Of Britain - Lut…: http://youtu.be/psZBaJU_Cvo

Rotherham, the systematic, racist grooming and rape of 1400+ children

Lee Rigby beheading

more muslims have joined Isis than the british army!

The Horrific Muslim Infiltration Of Britain - Lut…: http://youtu.be/psZBaJU_Cvo

'Muslims won't win against the West': http://youtu.be/YgNPaL9CllI

A Message to President Obama from a former Muslim: http://youtu.be/QxzOVSMUrGM

British Muslims Want To Take Over UK: http://youtu.be/9lYzrTBdoE0

Muslims Rioting in France: http://youtu.be/oDrgSTiBY2k

sweden riots 2013 muslims attack police: http://youtu.be/uLE_yGMBdUc

Young German girl stands against radical muslims …: http://youtu.be/RJF2PzWZQeg

Islamic Rape Wave in Norway / Islamsk Voldtekt Ep…: http://youtu.be/xoiCYwoJKrE

Muslim Gangs Drug & Rape Children All Over The UK…: http://youtu.be/bD0YEtuacUk

the list could go on and on, muslims will not integrate with the west. I could post 100 articles, videos or news reports for every positive reason for muslim integration with the west, can you even find one?

gallag · 25-09-2014 5:51pm

alastair wrote: »

Oh, I get it alright,.

Actually you said that: and that they held
Now - you've certainly not demonstrated that in your presentation of the threads on that forum. Which tbh - isn't very surprising.

Ice cream aside, you haven't shown that any sort of majority on that forum favour death for apostates. You've shown that a few posters within a much larger cohort of forum poster believe so, and that this, in the broader community of muslims, becomes a much smaller minority. If you want to prove a point that this forum has a minority of bigoted posters, then job well done, but you didn't have to venture far to find the same sort of minority bigotry evident in forums, populated with a majority who don't share those views.

If my auntie was a man, she'd be my uncle. You've linked to a forum that reflects a group with very little interest in the sort of abhorrent views you claimed.

The post made clear the children were family members. Most posters were not against reporting in case they were taken into non-muslim care - there was one singular poster raised that as a concern. One. :rolleyes:

I shall not convince you, I posted several threads showing truly warped opinions, I just hope a few people will go online and read the muslim based forums and make up there own minds, I found it enlightening.

alastair · 25-09-2014 5:57pm

gallag wrote: »

I shall not convince you, I posted several threads showing truly warped opinions, I just hope a few people will go online and read the muslim based forums and make up there own minds, I found it enlightening.

I'd have said you found it rather more confusing than enlightening, because you managed to come away completely misrepresenting the place.

And in terms of muslims will never integrate into the west? Doesn't tally in my experience. Worked for a muslim boss for a few years, worked with muslim co-workers. Not a sniff of anyone trying to behead me, rape anyone in the workplace, or sign up for jihad anywhere. Very much a let-down on the whole hate-the-kuffar front.

gallag · 25-09-2014 6:01pm

alastair wrote: »

I'd have said you found it rather more confusing than enlightening, because you managed to come away completely misrepresenting the place.

That's your opinion, you skimmed it, I joined the forum and spent days reading it, posts with complete contempt for the west and hate for the infidels go unchallenged, I again only hope people spend a bit of time and read a few of the large popular muslim based forums and gain a bit of insight, no point you or I trying to convince them when they can read themselves!

Timberrrrrrrr · 25-09-2014 6:01pm

gallag wrote: »

I shall not convince you, I posted several threads showing truly warped opinions, I just hope a few people will go online and read the muslim based forums and make up there own minds, I found it enlightening.

Of a tiny minority.

I was talking to one my Muslim friends a few minutes ago and mentioned what you said earlier about him and all other Muslims wanting to kill me. He left my home 10 minutes later still laughing. If nothing else you made a loving family guy very happy tonight.

Nodin · 25-09-2014 6:04pm

gallag wrote: »

Ok, a billion Muslims and it's impossible to find a Islam based forum where the general consensus is its good to integrate? Here ill do the leg work for you!

.

http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?11030-quot-moderates-quot-trying-to-make-it-look-as-if-islam-can-integrate-into-the-west&highlight=integrate

Alastair has already discounted and debunked all that.

alastair · 25-09-2014 6:05pm

gallag wrote: »

That's your opinion, you skimmed it, I joined the forum and spent days reading it, posts with complete contempt for the west and hate for the infidels go unchallenged, I again only hope people spend a bit of time and read a few of the large popular muslim based forums and gain a bit of insight, no point you or I trying to convince them when they can read themselves!

It's not my opinion. You misrepresented it - and you were caught out misrepresenting it. That's not a subjective call - it's a fact.

Nodin · 25-09-2014 6:08pm

gallag wrote: »

That's your opinion, you skimmed it, I joined the forum and spent days reading it, posts with complete contempt for the west and hate for the infidels go unchallenged, I again only hope people spend a bit of time and read a few of the large popular muslim based forums and gain a bit of insight, no point you or I trying to convince them when they can read themselves!

"This study is just one of several recent studies that have consistently found that Muslims in Britain express a stronger sense of belonging in Britain than their compatriots. Consider the following examples:
• 83% of Muslims are proud to be a British citizen, compared to 79% of the general public.
• 77% of Muslims strongly identify with Britain while only 50% of the wider population do.
• 86.4% of Muslims feel they belong in Britain, slightly more than the 85.9% of Christians.
• 82% of Muslims want to live in diverse and mixed neighbourhoods compared to 63% of non-Muslim Britons.
• 90% of Pakistanis feel a strong sense of belonging in Britain compared to 84% of white people."
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/jul/03/muslims-integrated-Britain

I'd suggest you went looking for what you wanted to find and found it.

gallag · 25-09-2014 7:16pm

Nodin wrote: »

"This study is just one of several recent studies that have consistently found that Muslims in Britain express a stronger sense of belonging in Britain than their compatriots. Consider the following examples:
• 83% of Muslims are proud to be a British citizen, compared to 79% of the general public.
• 77% of Muslims strongly identify with Britain while only 50% of the wider population do.
• 86.4% of Muslims feel they belong in Britain, slightly more than the 85.9% of Christians.
• 82% of Muslims want to live in diverse and mixed neighbourhoods compared to 63% of non-Muslim Britons.
• 90% of Pakistanis feel a strong sense of belonging in Britain compared to 84% of white people."
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2012/jul/03/muslims-integrated-Britain

I'd suggest you went looking for what you wanted to find and found it.

Ok, using that very same poll please tell the class how many british muslims believe that if someone leaves their religion should have there head cut off?

gallag · 25-09-2014 7:24pm

Nodin wrote: »

Alastair has already discounted and debunked all that.

he did? All of it?

Nodin · 25-09-2014 9:01pm

gallag wrote: »

Ok, using that very same poll please tell the class how many british muslims believe that if someone leaves their religion should have there head cut off?

It makes no mention. Are you going to address the points it does make?

masonchat · 26-09-2014 12:49am

This documentary has opened my eyes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krvCQbzPKiI it is long though at 138min

Nodin · 26-09-2014 3:19am

masonchat wrote: »

This documentary has opened my eyes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krvCQbzPKiI it is long though at 138min

One can skip to seeing its contributors to have a guess at its content - a motley collection of demagogues and islamophobes.

gallag · 26-09-2014 9:09am

Nodin wrote: »

It makes no mention. Are you going to address the points it does make?

You are using figures from different polls, the demos one has a sample size of 42 muslims ffs.

36% of 16 to 24-year-olds believe if a Muslim converts to another religion they should be punished by death, compared with 19% of over-55s

Call for State schools to accommodate Islamic beliefs

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