Call for State schools to accommodate Islamic beliefs

alastair · 26-09-2014 12:14pm

masonchat wrote: »

Does that make me an islamaphobe ? maybe , maybe i have good reason to be

Yes it does, and no, you don't.

AlekSmart · 26-09-2014 12:18pm

alastair wrote: »

Yes it does, and no, you don't.

Perhaps he's a Freemason too ?

alastair · 26-09-2014 12:20pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

thankfully he's not representative of any significant number of Islam's followers.....right ?

That's right. Al-Muhajiroun were/are a small bunch of nutters who garnered little support in the UK muslim community.

AlekSmart · 26-09-2014 12:25pm

alastair wrote: »

That's right. Al-Muhajiroun were/are a small bunch of nutters who garnered little support in the UK muslim community.

Ah right,good job too methinks.

Nodin · 26-09-2014 3:17pm

gallag wrote: »

You are using figures from different polls, the demos one has a sample size of 42 muslims ffs.
..................

The Demos poll went through 2000 people, presumably randomly selected.

masonchat wrote:

Well you seem to know so much about it , you can watch it and tell me which parts are not true and why .

Why would I bother? I know of the individuals involved (notorious, some of them) and I'm not going to sit through their sectarian nonsense. If you feel they have some case and care to repeat it here though, I'll gladly discuss it.

masonchat wrote:

Islam does not want to cohabit in peace with us infidels and unbelievers , you can see from all over europe the troubles they are having where large numbers are , that they are trying to inforce their laws and way of life.

And it needs to be stopped right now imho

Vague scaremongering statements aren't of much use to anyone.

masonchat wrote:

If you believe in islam then you believe in fighting ( putting it mildly) until
there are no more non believers or that they live beneath you as second class
citizens and pay the tax.

Fascinating. What countries impose this tax?

masonchat wrote:

You may say this is off topic, i dont think it is too far off topic , the scenes
across europe are very worring at the moment.

What scenes are these?

masonchat · 26-09-2014 6:55pm

Nodin wrote: »

The Demos poll went through 2000 people, presumably randomly selected.

Why would I bother? I know of the individuals involved (notorious, some of them) and I'm not going to sit through their sectarian nonsense. If you feel they have some case and care to repeat it here though, I'll gladly discuss it.

Vague scaremongering statements aren't of much use to anyone.

Fascinating. What countries impose this tax?

What scenes are these?

I love the way you pick a word here and there and isolate them and discredit statements while at the same time offering no proof to discredit anything.

It is clear there is not much sense to be had arguing the toss with you and i would argue there is not much sense arguing the toss with islamic extremists either.

The tax i speak of is mentioned in the quran and well known to be used by groups like IS , look it up.

The scenes i speak of are all over youtube and the internet you can look them up also, but seeing how dismissive you are about things that dont suit your opinion , i doubt you will.

You might be right , there might be a cuddly, arent westerners great, version of islam but im certainly of the impression they dont like us wont mix or intergrate and really given a choice and a means would be happier if we werent around.

gallag · 26-09-2014 7:10pm

Nodin wrote: »

The Demos poll went through 2000 people, presumably randomly selected.

Yes, you are correct, they polled 2000 people, 47 of which were muslim, I am sure you will agree that is no where near a large enough sample size to make that poll legit and would encourage you to stop spamming it at every opertunity.

AlekSmart · 26-09-2014 7:19pm

masonchat wrote: »

If you believe in islam then you believe in fighting ( putting it mildly) until there are no more non believers or that they live beneath you as second class citizens and pay the tax.

That video i posted explains that and much much more about islam, the fact that the earlier teachings were peaceful as he did not yet have enough political power/money/followers but as he gained them , it became by the sword , if you follow islam you follow this unless there was a second edition that we havent seen.

Some may choose to not take it literally but id imagine they are the ones living in countries where they are the minority and as the islamic population seems to grow much faster i do not like where the future is heading .

You may say this is off topic, i dont think it is too far off topic , the scenes across europe are very worring at the moment.

If europe was 50% islam at the moment , would we be living in peace ? i dont think so.

Does that make me an islamaphobe ? maybe , maybe i have good reason to be

Perhaps one reason for not considering people such as myself Islamophobic would be my support and admiration for THIS Gal....

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/25/world/meast/uae-female-fighter-pilot/index.html

One would be interested in the general Irish Islamic reaction to her stance,and her Actions ?

Nodin · 26-09-2014 7:24pm

masonchat wrote: »

..............

The tax i speak of is mentioned in the quran and well known to be used by groups like IS , look it up..

But you said
"If you believe in islam then you believe in fighting ( putting it mildly) until
there are no more non believers or that they live beneath you as second class citizens and pay the tax."

...yet there are many muslim majority states with minority populations. They do not not impose this tax. Not a one of them. Evidently your statement is incorrect.

masonchat wrote: »

..............
The scenes i speak of are all over youtube and the internet you can look them up also, but seeing how dismissive you are about things that dont suit your opinion , i doubt you will...

I was thinking of you providing a few stories from the news etc with a bit of commentary on how it fitted into your premise.

Timberrrrrrrr · 26-09-2014 7:35pm

masonchat wrote: »

I love the way you pick a word here and there and isolate them and discredit statements while at the same time offering no proof to discredit anything.

It is clear there is not much sense to be had arguing the toss with you and i would argue there is not much sense arguing the toss with islamic extremists either.

The tax i speak of is mentioned in the quran and well known to be used by groups like IS , look it up.

The scenes i speak of are all over youtube and the internet you can look them up also, but seeing how dismissive you are about things that dont suit your opinion , i doubt you will.

You might be right , there might be a cuddly, arent westerners great, version of islam but im certainly of the impression they dont like us wont mix or intergrate and really given a choice and a means would be happier if we werent around.

I have Muslim friends who are living here years, they have Irish friends their kids go to Irish schools and one of them even went to a wedding reception where alcohol was being served last month. The tiny radical percentage that you speak of is exactly that but you won't admit they are a tiny percent because that wouldn't fit your agenda would it?

gallag · 26-09-2014 7:35pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Perhaps one reason for not considering people such as myself Islamophobic would be my support and admiration for THIS Gal....

http://edition.cnn.com/2014/09/25/world/meast/uae-female-fighter-pilot/index.html

One would be interested in the general Irish Islamic reaction to her stance,and her Actions ?

she's pretty awesome! !

masonchat · 26-09-2014 7:36pm

Nodin wrote: »

But you said
"If you believe in islam then you believe in fighting ( putting it mildly) until
there are no more non believers or that they live beneath you as second class citizens and pay the tax."

...yet there are many muslim majority states with minority populations. They do not not impose this tax. Not a one of them. Evidently your statement is incorrect.

I was thinking of you providing a few stories from the news etc with a bit of commentary on how it fitted into your premise.

Well that is what the quran preaches at its core is it not , you give the impression it is a book of nursary rhymes , the tax is nit picking but you know what i ment anyway , im glad to here they dont , should i now consider all well with the world.

Didnt a poster a few pages back post several links to unrest in europe

masonchat · 26-09-2014 7:40pm

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

I have Muslim friends who are living here years, they have Irish friends their kids go to Irish schools and one of them even went to a wedding reception where alcohol was being served last month. The tiny radical percentage that you speak of is exactly that but you won't admit they are a tiny percent because that wouldn't fit your agenda would it?

I dont have an agenda mate i just dont like what im seeing and i dont like where i think it will end up.

Timberrrrrrrr · 26-09-2014 7:46pm

masonchat wrote: »

I dont have an agenda mate i just dont like what im seeing and i dont like where i think it will end up.

Yeah

Ok

Eircom_Sucks · 26-09-2014 7:48pm

My 2 cents

This is ireland if you don't like out culture or religious beliefs - go home

Sick of hearing about foreign nationals wanting this and that , first polish citizens wanting road signs in polish wtf

All i hear from the foreign nationals here is " in my country this and this is better " " in my country you would not be allowed to do this or that " well go home if its so fantastic

B4 the others say im racist , im not at all , but this is OUR country , wouldnt see irish in other countrys trying to set up churches etc

Does my head in

Nodin · 26-09-2014 7:48pm

masonchat wrote: »

Well that is what the quran preaches at its core is it not , you give the impression it is a book of nursary rhymes , the tax is nit picking but you know what i ment anyway , im glad to here they dont , should i now consider all well with the world.

It's not nit picking. You made a clear and concrete statement - using it to support your notion that Islam is a danger to the West - that belief in Islam lead to imposing this tax on non-muslims, yet not a single muslim state imposes it - not even Saudi or Iran.

masonchat wrote: »

Didnt a poster a few pages back post several links to unrest in europe

I am discussing what you stated with you.....

AlekSmart · 26-09-2014 8:06pm

Nodin wrote: »

It's not nit picking. You made a clear and concrete statement - using it to support your notion that Islam is a danger to the West - that belief in Islam lead to imposing this tax on non-muslims, yet not a single muslim state imposes it - not even Saudi or Iran.

Interesting point for sure....do you know if all Muslim States recognise the existence and validity of this "Tax" as opposed to their imposition of it ?

Perhaps one reason for it's non-imposition is,that for the most part,non-Muslims in these Muslim States tend to be there for specific state-beneficial economic reasons,oil,gas,mining etc.

There might be a somewhat different attitude on display,should these States be asked to accept a slew of Non-Muslim Asylum Seekers for example ?

masonchat · 26-09-2014 8:08pm

Nodin wrote: »

It's not nit picking. You made a clear and concrete statement - using it to support your notion that Islam is a danger to the West - that belief in Islam lead to imposing this tax on non-muslims, yet not a single muslim state imposes it - not even Saudi or Iran.

I am discussing what you stated with you.....

fair enough
5: Do dawah to the kuffar"

British Muslims Declare They Will Never Integ…: http://youtu.be/bOJeaoZOC5s

Merkel says German multicultural society has failed http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451

The Horrific Muslim Infiltration Of Britain - Lut…: http://youtu.be/psZBaJU_Cvo

Rotherham, the systematic, racist grooming and rape of 1400+ children

Lee Rigby beheading

more muslims have joined Isis than the british army!

The Horrific Muslim Infiltration Of Britain - Lut…: http://youtu.be/psZBaJU_Cvo

'Muslims won't win against the West': http://youtu.be/YgNPaL9CllI

A Message to President Obama from a former Muslim: http://youtu.be/QxzOVSMUrGM

British Muslims Want To Take Over UK: http://youtu.be/9lYzrTBdoE0

Muslims Rioting in France: http://youtu.be/oDrgSTiBY2k

sweden riots 2013 muslims attack police: http://youtu.be/uLE_yGMBdUc

Young German girl stands against radical muslims …: http://youtu.be/RJF2PzWZQeg

Islamic Rape Wave in Norway / Islamsk Voldtekt Ep…: http://youtu.be/xoiCYwoJKrE

Muslim Gangs Drug & Rape Children All Over The UK…: http://youtu.be/bD0YEtuac

Nodin · 26-09-2014 8:09pm

Eircom_Sucks wrote: »

My 2 cents

This is ireland if you don't like out culture or religious beliefs - go home

What is our culture and what are our religious beliefs?

Eircom_Sucks wrote: »

Sick of hearing about foreign nationals wanting this and that , first polish citizens wanting road signs in polish wtf

You don't happen to have a source for that, do you?

Eircom_Sucks wrote: »

B4 the others say im racist , im not at all , but this is OUR country , wouldnt see irish in other countrys trying to set up churches etc

God no

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Patrick's_Cathedral_(Manhattan)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Patrick's_Cathedral,_Melbourne

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_College

http://www.irishcentersf.org/

http://www.irishculturalcentre.co.uk/

http://www.irishculture.org/

http://www.londonirishcentre.org/

http://saintbrigidscentre.com/

http://www.centreculturelirlandais.com/en/

Nodin · 26-09-2014 8:15pm

I've ignored the youtube videos, as I did lay out what was required. I find it odd that you copy and paste somebody elses post rather than submit your own material, buts that's up to you I suppose.

masonchat wrote: »

....................

Merkel says German multicultural society has failed http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451
..

...primarily because it was made so diificult for Turkish workers and their families to become German citizens. The law was only changed in 2000. There's wrong on both sides there.

masonchat wrote: »

..
Rotherham, the systematic, racist grooming and rape of 1400+ children
.

What has that to do with Islam precisely?

masonchat wrote: »

....................
Lee Rigby beheading
..................

Terrorism. Hardly a uniquely muslim trait. Irish people have been setting off bombs and shooting people in Britain since the 1860's.

killbillvol2 · 26-09-2014 8:16pm

Eircom_Sucks wrote: »

My 2 cents

This is ireland if you don't like out culture or religious beliefs - go home

Sick of hearing about foreign nationals wanting this and that , first polish citizens wanting road signs in polish wtf

All i hear from the foreign nationals here is " in my country this and this is better " " in my country you would not be allowed to do this or that " well go home if its so fantastic

B4 the others say im racist , im not at all , but this is OUR country , wouldnt see irish in other countrys trying to set up churches etc

Does my head in

Hahahahahaha

Nodin · 26-09-2014 8:19pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Interesting point for sure....do you know if all Muslim States recognise the existence and validity of this "Tax" as opposed to their imposition of it ?

Perhaps one reason for it's non-imposition is,that for the most part,non-Muslims in these Muslim States tend to be there for specific state-beneficial economic reasons,oil,gas,mining etc.

There might be a somewhat different attitude on display,should these States be asked to accept a slew of Non-Muslim Asylum Seekers for example ?

This is again the kind of sly slander by implication some seem to love throwing in. 'Yes they don't all behead people, but what if they had the chance?'. Pathetic, relentless and undeniably islamophobic.

AlekSmart · 26-09-2014 8:42pm

Nodin wrote: »

What is our culture and what are our religious beliefs?

I suppose you could perhaps suggest....?

The regular legal consumption of alcohol,in public and private?
The regular and legal free association of males & females in education,recreation and religious observance?
The regular and legal production of music,using a variety of tunable stringed instruments ?

You don't happen to have a source for that, do you?

Dunno about Road Signs,but the RSA do a bit of "facilitating" which may not exactly be reciprocated.....

http://www.rsa.ie/RSA/Learner-Drivers/Your-learner-permit/The-theory-test/

Tests are held in 41 theory test centres around the country.

The test is offered in both Irish and English and candidates with special requirements can be accommodated. A Polish,Russian and Lithuanian voiceover is available for the category B (car).

Translator supported tests are available by special arrangement at the Dublin, Galway, Cork, Waterford and Sligo test centres. These tests are for candidates who do not speak and cannot understand Irish or English, even if provided over headphones. Evidence to support this requirement will be required.

Safety first n all that I presume ?

God no

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Patrick's_Cathedral_(Manhattan)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Patrick's_Cathedral,_Melbourne

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_College

http://www.irishcentersf.org/

http://www.irishculturalcentre.co.uk/

http://www.irishculture.org/

http://www.londonirishcentre.org/

http://saintbrigidscentre.com/

http://www.centreculturelirlandais.com/en/[/QUOTE]

Hmmmm true....ish.....however that is a somewhat large leap-of-faith,asking us to accept how operating a (Western) Irish Cultural Centre in (Western) London or Paris is commensurate with being asked to accommodate,for example,Islamic Cultural Centres being established in Ireland.

TTBOMK,none of the "Irish" centres above,feature Irish clerics suggesting that their hosts restructure their education systems and assorted other administrative sectors to suit the guests requirements ?

But then,we could both be totally wrong

masonchat · 26-09-2014 8:46pm

Nodin wrote: »

I've ignored the youtube videos, as I did lay out what was required. I find it odd that you copy and paste somebody elses post rather than submit your own material, buts that's up to you I suppose.

...primarily because it was made so diificult for Turkish workers and their families to become German citizens. The law was only changed in 2000. There's wrong on both sides there.

What has that to do with Islam precisely?

Terrorism. Hardly a uniquely muslim trait. Irish people have been setting off bombs and shooting people in Britain since the 1860's.

Haha really , yeah i have come to expect not much else you seem to be an expert at cherry picking what it is you see and hear , im done conversing with you as there is no point.

AlekSmart · 26-09-2014 8:49pm

Nodin wrote: »

This is again the kind of sly slander by implication some seem to love throwing in. 'Yes they don't all behead people, but what if they had the chance?'. Pathetic, relentless and undeniably islamophobic.

Undeniably eh....?

"Sly Slander"...."Implication"

Interesting interpretation all the same,as,if nothing else,it does tend to have a similar "relentlessness" about it.

However,all that apart,it is totally incorrect

.

Nodin · 26-09-2014 8:57pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Dunno about Road Signs,but the RSA do a bit of "facilitating" which may not exactly be reciprocated......

So "no" then.

Also can be taken in German.
http://www.wsj.waw.pl/kursy-w-jezyku-angielskim.html

AlekSmart wrote: »

Hmmmm true....ish.....however that is a somewhat large leap-of-faith,asking us to accept how operating a (Western) Irish Cultural Centre in (Western) London or Paris is commensurate with being asked to accommodate,for example,Islamic Cultural Centres being established in Ireland.

Jesus no. We're just Irish people known for the bit of craic and whoever the Islamic people are, they're clearly of the Devil.

AlekSmart wrote: »

TTBOMK,none of the "Irish" centres above,feature Irish clerics suggesting that their hosts restructure their education systems and assorted other administrative sectors to suit the guests requirements ?

They just set up their own faith schools and do it that way, and in no way campaign to get their flock to go against various socially liberal notions like divorce, contraception, abortion and so on. Totally different.

Nodin · 26-09-2014 8:59pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Undeniably eh....?

.

Undeniably. When one sectarian bit of nonsense is disproven, another similar theory is inserted in its place with "if", "but" or some similar caveat thrown in to avoid a repeat of the correction. There can be only one cause behind that.

Frank Lee Midere · 26-09-2014 9:04pm

Nodin wrote: »

So "no" then.

Also can be taken in German.
http://www.wsj.waw.pl/kursy-w-jezyku-angielskim.html

Jesus no. We're just Irish people known for the bit of craic and whoever the Islamic people are, they're clearly of the Devil.

They just set up their own faith schools and do it that way, and in no way campaign to get their flock to go against various socially liberal notions like divorce, contraception, abortion and so on. Totally different.

Even if that whataboutary were true - and I doubt if Irish clerics are black on the ground of London or as severe as Islamic preachers - it might actually argue against historic Irish emigration to the UK rather than in favour of Islamic immigration to London or Dublin.

Nodin · 26-09-2014 9:09pm

Frank Lee Midere wrote: »

Even if that whataboutary were true - and I doubt if Irish clerics are black on the ground of London or as severe as Islamic preachers - it might actually argue against historic Irish emigration to the UK rather than in favour of Islamic immigration to London or Dublin.

Hardly. It shows scaremongering about a religions conservative elements is baseless.

And afaik it was one of the arguments used against historic irish immigration to the states (Papal influence etc).

AlekSmart · 26-09-2014 10:21pm

Nodin wrote: »

Undeniably. When one sectarian bit of nonsense is disproven, another similar theory is inserted in its place with "if", "but" or some similar caveat thrown in to avoid a repeat of the correction. There can be only one cause behind that.

Undeniably again...now it's "Sectarian"...?

Nonsense is ok though,as that could be said to be a shared strength,however the remainder is proving every bit as illustrative of a mindset every bit as questionable as the one I'm being accused of holding....

However,in the context of progressing the thread,if it has'nt run it's course,I prefer to shrug my shoulders and continue ?

crockholm · 26-09-2014 10:21pm

Nodin wrote: »

Hardly. It shows scaremongering about a religions conservative elements is baseless.

And afaik it was one of the arguments used against historic irish immigration to the states (Papal influence etc).

Not a great example Mr. Nodin-Irish immigration to parts of the USA,in particular Boston fundamentaly changed the city,it Went from "The city on the hill" "America's Jerusalem" and a bastion of WASP Culture to a city that stayed under Irish Catholic political Control for the bones of 100 years.

It also brought with it the practice of religious (Catholic) schools,which would ensure that the 2 communities would not intergrate for many a year,and I am led to Believe that you ain't exactly a fan of religious schools.

Nodin · 26-09-2014 10:23pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

Undeniably again...now it's "Sectarian"...?

Well, as Islam is a religion, that would be the correct terminology.

Nodin · 26-09-2014 10:24pm

crockholm wrote: »

Not a great example Mr. Nodin-Irish immigration to parts of the USA,in particular Boston fundamentaly changed the city,it Went from "The city on the hill" "America's Jerusalem" and a bastion of WASP Culture to a city that stayed under Irish Catholic political Control for the bones of 100 years.

It also brought with it the practice of religious (Catholic) schools,which would ensure that the 2 communities would not intergrate for many a year,and I am led to Believe that you ain't exactly a fan of religious schools.

Yet America isn't a catholic state, despite the influx of Italians, Poles and ourselves.

crockholm · 26-09-2014 10:35pm

Nodin wrote: »

Yet America isn't a catholic state, despite the influx of Italians, Poles and ourselves.

Neither is anywhere else in the World apart from the Vatican-What is your Point?

AlekSmart · 26-09-2014 10:39pm

Nodin wrote: »

So "no" then.

Also can be taken in German.
http://www.wsj.waw.pl/kursy-w-jezyku-angielskim.html

Jesus no. We're just Irish people known for the bit of craic and whoever the Islamic people are, they're clearly of the Devil.

They just set up their own faith schools and do it that way, and in no way campaign to get their flock to go against various socially liberal notions like divorce, contraception, abortion and so on.Totally different.

The first two could bring renewed accusations of "Sectarianism" against me so I'll demur for now.

However,in the modern world these Clerical campaigns to preserve the old notions you describe,have been markedly unsuccessful.

It's quite a while since I've had a threat of hellfire n damnation made against me for my liberal lapsed-catholic status.

However,it would appear that,currently,it's the Max-Strength, undiluted full compliance wing that calls the shots in modern Islam.

Perhaps prolonged exposure to our more relaxed,less constrained way of thinking,will eventually accellerate that process of realization that took Christianity some 500 years to achieve,but that would take a level of willing cooperation not yet evident ?

Nodin · 26-09-2014 11:24pm

AlekSmart wrote: »

The first two could bring renewed accusations of "Sectarianism" against me so I'll demur for now.

However,in the modern world these Clerical campaigns to preserve the old notions you describe,have been markedly unsuccessful.

It's quite a while since I've had a threat of hellfire n damnation made against me for my liberal lapsed-catholic status.

However,it would appear that,currently,it's the Max-Strength, undiluted full compliance wing that calls the shots in modern Islam.

Perhaps prolonged exposure to our more relaxed,less constrained way of thinking,will eventually accellerate that process of realization that took Christianity some 500 years to achieve,but that would take a level of willing cooperation not yet evident ?

....which is undoubtedly what was uttered in some quarters back in the 1800's.

crockholm · 26-09-2014 11:37pm

Nodin......Your posts are starting to seem a Little ambidextrous, on the one hand you are taking examples of catholic doctrine to suggest it is rather authoritarian and backward and on the other hand you seem to be castigating those who were suspicious of Catholicisms (percieved) authoritarianism and backwardedness in the 1800s.

Could you clarify this,please?

Hachiko · 27-09-2014 12:37am

Scofflaw wrote: »

This is from last week, but only catching my eye now:http://www.irishtimes.com/news/social-affairs/religion-and-beliefs/call-for-state-schools-to-accommodate-islamic-beliefs-1.1915810

Personally, I don't have much time for the imposition of any religious dogma in schools - but as people probably know, I'm a pretty confirmed multiculturalist, so I ought to be somewhat conflicted on this. However, I don't find myself very conflicted here, because it's a fine example of a "non-native" religious dogma expressing itself in a way that I wouldn't accept from a more "native" one either.

Dr Selim's proposals are:

1. Islamic Holidays to be marked and celebrated
2. Special days off for Muslim children
3. Schools to actively participate in Ramadan by raising funds for "the needy"
4. A ban on raffles as a method of fund raising as they are "strictly forbidden" in Islam
5. "Crucial" changes to Relationships and Sexuality Education curriculum to exclude reference to or attempted normalization of pre-marital relationships
6. Exemptions and radical change to PE to ensure female only teachers and a ban on male staff accessing areas where girls might be taking lessons
7. All music to exclude any instruments that makes a note ("tunable instruments")
8. School Plays to forbid any physical contact between boys and girls and a ban on gender role reversals

I don't have a major issue with 1 or 3 - marking the holidays appropriate to some students seems reasonable, at least if there are enough such students in a school, and Ramadan seems at least as good a reason for charitable work as Lent.

Point 2 I don't have a problem with in principle, but it would be difficult in practice - like it or not, the Christian holidays are the accepted cultural norm.

Points 4, 7 and 8 are easily dealt with by non-participation. If someone wants to create purely Islamic orchestras or plays, let them do so.

Points 5 and 6 are simply unacceptable medievalism - an attempt to impose the mores of a minority on the majority.

cordially,
Scofflaw

would schools in Islam nations accommodate paddys pad? and other Irish festivals?

1123heavy · 27-09-2014 12:50am

As a devout Muslim who grew up and went to school in Ireland I was satisfied enough with my treatment, apart from one day when i was seven, this old teacher literally forced me to engage in a catholic prayer session. However overall our beliefs were accomodated, in secondary school we were even offered a room in which we could congregate during lunch hour for afternoon prayers. If a special religious celebration fell on a school day we took the day off. I don't like seeing people comment that multiculturism is a failure etc etc as in my experience it wasn't. I happily went to school for over 13 years with people of all different backgrounds and we got along great. I admire how well the Irish system worked and in general how people of other faiths have been accomodated. The thing I really despise is how the media like to put a negative spin on muslim people's comments to make it sound like we're ungrateful, this simply isn't the case.

colossus-x · 27-09-2014 2:06am

Some quotes from the OP:

7. All music to exclude any instruments that makes a note ("tunable instruments")
4. A ban on raffles as a method of fund raising as they are "strictly forbidden" in Islam
8. School Plays to forbid any physical contact between boys and girls and a ban on gender role reversals

Some quotes from the irish times article:

"He suggests there is “a clash of values” also between Islam and “traditional ways of teaching PE”
"Muslim girls are obliged to take off their headscarves for PE classes, which is not acceptable to them”.
"Acting “in a way that may arouse sexual feeling or give sexual hints causes objection.”

==========================================

If these things are so important then how can they ever expect to be really happy living in this country ?

Accommodating them would be a mistake imo, even for the more trivial things.

Nodin · 27-09-2014 4:36am

crockholm wrote: »

Nodin......Your posts are starting to seem a Little ambidextrous, on the one hand you are taking examples of catholic doctrine to suggest it is rather authoritarian and backward and on the other hand you seem to be castigating those who were suspicious of Catholicisms (percieved) authoritarianism and backwardedness in the 1800s.

Could you clarify this,please?

The fact that an immigrant population has within its ranks adherents to a conservative religion does not mean that the host country or that immigrant population will fall sway to them. That's what I'm saying.

Nodin · 27-09-2014 4:37am

colossus-x wrote: »

Some quotes from the OP:

7. All music to exclude any instruments that makes a note ("tunable instruments")
4. A ban on raffles as a method of fund raising as they are "strictly forbidden" in Islam
8. School Plays to forbid any physical contact between boys and girls and a ban on gender role reversals

Some quotes from the irish times article:

"He suggests there is “a clash of values” also between Islam and “traditional ways of teaching PE”
"Muslim girls are obliged to take off their headscarves for PE classes, which is not acceptable to them”.
"Acting “in a way that may arouse sexual feeling or give sexual hints causes objection.”

==========================================

If these things are so important then how can they ever expect to be really happy living in this country ?

Accommodating them would be a mistake imo, even for the more trivial things.

He doesn't speak for all of them.

Tom Dunne · 27-09-2014 4:47am

Hachiko wrote: »

would schools in Islam nations accommodate paddys pad? and other Irish festivals?

Not necessarily Paddy's Day, but schools here in the Middle East that follow the British curriculum close for Christmas and Easter.

gallag · 27-09-2014 8:34am

Timberrrrrrrr wrote: »

Utter Bull**** yet again

That thread has 42 posts

15 people posted in that thread

3 said things along the lines of what you describe, only ONE says something along the lines of he is looking forward to killing Jews

So in actual fact ONE person out of 15 makes one kinda extreme radical post, And you expect us to believe your other "stats" :rolleyes:

only seeing this post now, you must be counting posts that reply to the queslon "is it alright to kill Jews and infidels" by saying stuff like "allah knows best" or posting scriptures that supports the idea as non radical and benign.

here is the proof that you guys are morality corrupt, noden can post a poll that has a sample size of 47 muslims that shows false information and you guys like it, I post a actual conversation happening with muslims showing a very worrying mind set and yous are falling over yourself to discredit it? why? I genuinely ask people to read that thread and form your own judgement of who's stats you should believe, just read it with your own eyes.

again, I forsee the pc right on argument changing to "you can't judge a whole people on a Internet forum" even though a poll of 47 seems to be Ok, ask your self this, if I said the Irish were all sexest pigs and racist would reading Ireland's largest community discussion board (boards.ie) not be a better way of judging than reading a poll? Seriously if I posted that "women should not be leaders" on boards I would get torn to shreds and rightfully so but if I posted the same question on the largest English speaking muslim boards and most agreed would it not be fair to assume muslims are deeply sexist?
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?418083-Women-leaders

image this mindset crept into our society! I remember a muslim guy who was a mod on boards.ie saying it was alright to hit your wife as long as you had already tried shouting and withholding sex!!!! wtf!

alastair · 27-09-2014 9:48am

colossus-x wrote: »

Some quotes from the OP:

If these things are so important then how can they ever expect to be really happy living in this country ?

Accommodating them would be a mistake imo, even for the more trivial things.

Do you think that the anti-divorce or pro-life crowd should leave here on the back of not having their world-view enshrined into the law of the land? People have the right to lobby for their own concerns, whether you/I like it or not. Allowing people that right doesn't imply that everything they want should automatically be enshrined into law. But to suggest that if they don't like things here they should get the hell out (as someone in this thread has already implied), kinda runs at odds with the whole democracy thing.

Brown Bomber · 27-09-2014 9:50am

masonchat wrote: »

This documentary has opened my eyes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=krvCQbzPKiI it is long though at 138min

LOL @ that so-called documentary opening anyone's eyes. For example,

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pJN00dBhZVk

alastair · 27-09-2014 9:55am

gallag wrote: »

only seeing this post now, you must be counting posts that reply to the queslon "is it alright to kill Jews and infidels" by saying stuff like "allah knows best" or posting scriptures that supports the idea as non radical and benign.

here is the proof that you guys are morality corrupt, noden can post a poll that has a sample size of 47 muslims that shows false information and you guys like it, I post a actual conversation happening with muslims showing a very worrying mind set and yous are falling over yourself to discredit it? why? I genuinely ask people to read that thread and form your own judgement of who's stats you should believe, just read it with your own eyes.

again, I forsee the pc right on argument changing to "you can't judge a whole people on a Internet forum" even though a poll of 47 seems to be Ok, ask your self this, if I said the Irish were all sexest pigs and racist would reading Ireland's largest community discussion board (boards.ie) not be a better way of judging than reading a poll? Seriously if I posted that "women should not be leaders" on boards I would get torn to shreds and rightfully so but if I posted the same question on the largest English speaking muslim boards and most agreed would it not be fair to assume muslims are deeply sexist?
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?418083-Women-leaders

image this mindset crept into our society! I remember a muslim guy who was a mod on boards.ie saying it was alright to hit your wife as long as you had already tried shouting and withholding sex!!!! wtf!

Nodin's post had the merit of tallying with the reality of how Muslims actually live their lives in the UK (and here) - which following on from your litany of fabricated claims was pretty refreshing. I'm guessing you've not had much social interaction with Muslims? Whatever the reasons, you've certainly presented a cookie-cutter Islamophobic representation of that group, and managed to perceive, and represent, a small minority of posts on Muslim forum, as indicative of a majority view, when the opposite was glaringly obvious.

So, when you quibble about only 47 Muslims in the poll, consider how you managed to turn one single poster on a forum into 'most of the posters'.

Brown Bomber · 27-09-2014 10:38am

gallag wrote: »

British Muslims Declare They Will Never Integ…: http://youtu.be/bOJeaoZOC5s

Merkel says German multicultural society has failed http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-11559451

The Horrific Muslim Infiltration Of Britain - Lut…: http://youtu.be/psZBaJU_Cvo

Rotherham, the systematic, racist grooming and rape of 1400+ children

Lee Rigby beheading

more muslims have joined Isis than the british army!

The Horrific Muslim Infiltration Of Britain - Lut…: http://youtu.be/psZBaJU_Cvo

'Muslims won't win against the West': http://youtu.be/YgNPaL9CllI

A Message to President Obama from a former Muslim: http://youtu.be/QxzOVSMUrGM

British Muslims Want To Take Over UK: http://youtu.be/9lYzrTBdoE0

Muslims Rioting in France: http://youtu.be/oDrgSTiBY2k

sweden riots 2013 muslims attack police: http://youtu.be/uLE_yGMBdUc

Young German girl stands against radical muslims …: http://youtu.be/RJF2PzWZQeg

Islamic Rape Wave in Norway / Islamsk Voldtekt Ep…: http://youtu.be/xoiCYwoJKrE

Muslim Gangs Drug & Rape Children All Over The UK…: http://youtu.be/bD0YEtuacUk

the list could go on and on, muslims will not integrate with the west. I could post 100 articles, videos or news reports for every positive reason for muslim integration with the west, can you even find one?

This list of yours, will it include Jimmy Saville being a secret Muslim? Without context your scatter-gun is firing blanks though I will comment on two of your propaganda efforts above as I am probably uniquely positioned to comment.

1) I spend some of my time working with with educating Swedish immigrants. The Swedish rioters weren't exclusively Muslim but were exclusively (relatively) poor and ostracised. It had nothing to do with religion at all.

2) Your video from "Israel Stands With The West". Is that similar to how "Israel stands with gays", except in reality it spies on them and blackmails/coerces them into becoming agentis/informants and spies?

I debunked that so called "Muslim rape epidemic" here 4 years ago so I am just going to quote myself:

This is the police report the news report was based on. https://www.politi.no/vedlegg/lokale...dlegg_1309.pdf

First off it's worth pointing out that the numbers refer to Oslo and not the whole of Norway. It's actually shameful how low the media will go to demonise Muslims as they've done here. They've spun it in such a way so as to demonise Muslim immigrants.

Luckily I can speak enough Swedish/Norwegian to get the jist of the report.

If you go to table 30 you'll see that there was 152 rapes in Oslo in 2010 - Mostly carried out by people of NORWEGIAN descent. (Norge = Norway) and happened at a party (Fest = party). The news channel has shamelessly twisted rape statistics to whip up paranioa and hatred against immigrants. What they've solely focused on in the news report was "Overfall" meaning assualt. These numbered 6 in total. 4 being committed by men (perhaps even women?) from the Middle East and 2 from Africa.

This was propoganda of the highest order. I would expect many innocent Muslims were attacked in the street because of this dishonest reporting.

3) You know what did ACTUALLY happen in Oslo that year? A white, atheist, native Norwegian bombed Oslo and massacred scores of children on an island because he bought into the same asinine conspiracy theories that you do.

Timberrrrrrrr · 27-09-2014 10:43am

gallag wrote: »

only seeing this post now, you must be counting posts that reply to the queslon "is it alright to kill Jews and infidels" by saying stuff like "allah knows best" or posting scriptures that supports the idea as non radical and benign.

So if i said "God knows best" that would make me a radical Christian with murderous intentions?

You stated clearly that (and i see edited the post afterwards)

Originally Posted by gallag View Post
That's two different things! I never said that the majority of British muslims supported the death penalty for apostates, not once, I did say that the majority of Muslims on the thread http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthrea...h-on-jews-tree were looking forward to killing the Jews and non believers! Please stop mmisquoting me.

Yet when one reads the thread it's easy to see that only ONE poster said such a thing yet you seem to interpret "Allah knows best" to "I want to behead Jews and non-believers"!

here is the proof that you guys are morality corrupt, noden can post a poll that has a sample size of 47 muslims that shows false information and you guys like it, I post a actual conversation happening with muslims showing a very worrying mind set and yous are falling over yourself to discredit it? why? I genuinely ask people to read that thread and form your own judgement of who's stats you should believe, just read it with your own eyes.

No you made claims that the conversation contained radical posts but it turns out that this is only your warped interpretation of the thread.

again, I forsee the pc right on argument changing to "you can't judge a whole people on a Internet forum" even though a poll of 47 seems to be Ok, ask your self this, if I said the Irish were all sexest pigs and racist would reading Ireland's largest community discussion board (boards.ie) not be a better way of judging than reading a poll? Seriously if I posted that "women should not be leaders" on boards I would get torn to shreds and rightfully so but if I posted the same question on the largest English speaking muslim boards and most agreed would it not be fair to assume muslims are deeply sexist?
http://www.ummah.com/forum/showthread.php?418083-Women-leaders

image this mindset crept into our society! I remember a muslim guy who was a mod on boards.ie saying it was alright to hit your wife as long as you had already tried shouting and withholding sex!!!! wtf!

Rabble rabble rabble whataboutery rabble rabble :rolleyes:

gallag · 27-09-2014 11:07am

alastair wrote: »

Nodin's post had the merit of tallying with the reality of how Muslims actually live their lives in the UK (and here) - which following on from your litany of fabricated claims was pretty refreshing. I'm guessing you've not had much social interaction with Muslims? Whatever the reasons, you've certainly presented a cookie-cutter Islamophobic representation of that group, and managed to perceive, and represent, a small minority of posts on Muslim forum, as indicative of a majority view, when the opposite was glaringly obvious.

So, when you quibble about only 47 Muslims in the poll, consider how you managed to turn one single poster on a forum into 'most of the posters'.

How did I turn one single poster into most of the posters? A lot of posters were in aagreement in that thread that the Jews and infidels should be murderd, I have no clue why you constantly try to misrepresent what I am saying? did a lot of the attitudes in that thread not cause you even a slight bit of worry?

Call for State schools to accommodate Islamic beliefs

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