Derek (Ricky Gervais and Karl Pilkington Sitcom)

leggo · 08-03-2013 11:02pm

ShagNastii wrote: »

I think the criticism of the series is from people who were never going to like it due to their bugbears with Gervais.

This. Liking Gervais stopped being 'trendy' once The Office finished.

It's very irritating to have people come out and say it's a terrible show, without backing that up with actual valid criticism (they have 3.5 hours of material to peruse to get some, after all), and it reeks of just following the narrative that Gervais is the devil now because he's gone Hollywood. Fair enough if it's not your cup of tea. But if you want to say it's a 'bad' show, at least flesh that out.

e_e · 09-03-2013 6:34am

I thought it was mostly terrible personally. Tonally all over the place with manipulative piano pieces, a gurning lead performance and really awfully heavy handed emotional content. I can't believe they actually used Coldplay's Fix You to close the series, could they have been any more obvious and tiresome? If I heard that on X Factor I'd think they were stretching.

Of course the people who do like it are trying to make a conspiracy out of those who don't. I've nothing against Gervais, I like The Office/Extras and his stand up shows too but this felt like some form of pretentious parody. I really couldn't tell whether the show was supposed to be satirical or not at points, it is so shameless in trying to move the viewer even going to the extent of having the characters talk about the meaning of life while somber piano music plays. I was indifferent to the show for the first few episodes, but that finale actively annoyed me.

leggo · 09-03-2013 4:32pm

Why watch it, though? I think that's why people are making these 'conspiracy theories' (a bit melodramatic btw, if you're gonna make melodrama a bugbear yourself): it doesn't follow that if you were so indifferent to the first five episodes that you'd stick around long enough to be as emotionally offended by that bastard telly trying to make you cry again as you were. Presumably you're not a professional television critic...so you have an abundance of alternative choices that you can watch instead.

Given that, it's a reasonable conclusion that you either liked it enough to continue watching (then cobbled together a poor review to sound 'credible', or whatever it is people who slate TV shows they watch every week seek) or you're watching it with the intent of deliberately slating it to follow a narrative that's become popular online.

I'm not trying to revoke your right to have an opinion because you have one that's different to mine. I'm simply pointing out that the vitriol in your criticism doesn't correspond with your actions (watching every episode), unless there was some kind of ulterior motive at play. Had you said, "the choices of songs used for montages were obvious and I found some of the deliberate efforts to upset me fell flat...but it kept me watching because of A, B and C" then it'd come across as a credible, considered and logical opinion. But saying, "I watched every episode and found it terrible," doesn't add up...because nobody is forcing you to endure it. So why bother?

No conspiracy, just a fair question that's still unanswered.

e_e · 09-03-2013 5:19pm

That is a bizarre post. Why watch it? Because I hoped it would get better and I had enough faith in Ricky & Karl to deliver something touching, funny and thought-provoking. Seems like you're trying really hard to silence any kind of critique, don't be a fanboy. I'm just trying to invite discussion here.

e_e · 09-03-2013 5:22pm

leggo wrote: »

(then cobbled together a poor review to sound 'credible', or whatever it is people who slate TV shows they watch every week seek)

A poor review? I am just giving my own opinion of a show, don't come across so defensive.

Also I don't actually watch a whole lot of television, another poor assumption.

Grimebox · 09-03-2013 5:53pm

Why watch it? What a useless argument. I certainly don't want to hear the opinion of someone who hasn't watched it. I watched two seasons of Curb Your Enthusiasm before packing it in. I watched Dude, Where's My Car.

e_e · 09-03-2013 6:46pm

Exactly. If you take away ads and credits the show is only about 2 hours long in its entirety. Of course I'd want to follow it through and see if maybe i was wrong initially. It's not exactly a season of The Wire is it? :rolleyes:

Standman · 09-03-2013 6:47pm

I like Gervais and most of the things he has done so I was really looking forward to watching this series.

The acting is very good from everybody involved I have to say, but overall I thought the series was just ok

Have to say though that the last episode was incredibly unsubtle. Such an awful over use of the talking heads that it almost felt like I was watching some kind of lecture full of clichéd advice on how to live a virtuous life. I think maybe Gervais might have rushed the writing of this series somewhat and got caught up in the emotion so much that he lost some sense of perspective.

Richard tea · 09-03-2013 9:45pm

Does anybody else think that the role of Derek would have been better off been played by another actor? I think Derek would have been alot better if Ricky played the role of the nursing home manager.

leggo · 09-03-2013 10:34pm

e_e wrote: »

That is a bizarre post. Why watch it? Because I hoped it would get better and I had enough faith in Ricky & Karl to deliver something touching, funny and thought-provoking. Seems like you're trying really hard to silence any kind of critique, don't be a fanboy. I'm just trying to invite discussion here.

Not at all, I've even given an example of what I'd consider a credible, considered opinion that'd be perfectly fair to post. For example, I wasn't a big fan of 'Life's Too Short': I'd say that the series had a decent premise and some inspired gags, but a lot of the jokes fell flat and at times the writing verged between lazy and self-indulgent. He's a clearly talented guy, capable of brilliance, who had a few bad days at the office writing a project that sounded better in his head.

I kept watching and hoping for similar reasons that you've listed re: Derek, so I relate completely to what you're saying, but only because of its rare moments of brilliance. If it wasn't for them, I'd have stopped after 2-3 episodes. I've ignored several of his movies and other projects because their pitches didn't hook me. Hardly fanboy material, just a fair assessment of his work.

I still don't think that, after watching 5 of 6 episodes of what you call a 'terrible' show, anyone would still watch in faith that they'd knock it out of the park with the last episode. It simply doesn't make sense that you'd keep it series linked or wouldn't eventually switch off if you found it that bad. Something is amiss.

And the reality is, with certain people (Gervais being near top of the list), you can predict the adverse reaction before a minute of one of their new projects has even aired. If I'm giving a fanboy's account then you're giving the predictable, bandwagoning, hipster's review, going with the tide of anti-establishment narrative for the sake of looking like your opinion is ahead of the curve (or whatever, again I don't understand why people do it, just know that they very much do).

Had you either backed up your words by simply switching off, or not been so overwhelmingly dismissive, it'd be more credible. That's all I'm saying: not that you're not entitled to dislike it - of course you are - simply that your actions undermine the integrity of your criticism.

e_e · 09-03-2013 11:08pm

Did you not miss me saying "I was indifferent to the show for the first few episodes" then? It was the finale that I specifically called out in my post, how was I to know I'd hate it before I even watched it? I decided to give the show the benefit of the doubt, especially since Gervais himself hyped it up so insanely on twitter. I watched it, disliked it and gave my opinion on here, simple as. No need for this absurd line of interrogation, especially given how inaccurate you are about my intentions.

e_e · 09-03-2013 11:13pm

...and I have persevered with shows and movies I was iffy about at first but ended up loving them, including The Wire and The Sopranos. It seems you're chiding me for actually giving things a chance which seems frankly ridiculous to me.

On a positive note though, at least we got some decent Karl Pilkington quotes out of the show. Even if its not as spontaneously brilliant as the podcasts.

e_e · 09-03-2013 11:38pm

Also have to love this "BLAME THE HIPSTERS!" attitude whenever somebody voices a genuine negative opinion on anything. It's such a transparent way of silencing anyone with a different view to your own.

leggo · 10-03-2013 2:38am

Ah look man, I'm not chiding you by any means so apologies if it comes across that way. You just gave an exact example of the kind of opinion that I'm talking about directly underneath the post where I made that point. It's more an example, using your opinion as a handy basis, of the kind of generic, negative rhetoric that gets spewed about Gervais regardless of the quality of his work. Nothing personal intended.

Like I said a few times now, I'm not trying to silence you for having an opinion that's different to mine. All I want is for people to flesh out their criticism (or praise, for that matter, very few things are more frustrating than to see mediocrity praised to the high heaven without examining its actual substance) instead of floating the boring, bandwagoning line that Gervais is the devil. Or convoluting an argument that looks well thought-out, but has little relevance when it faces the microscope, for the sake of achieving the same end.

I think those people exist in their masses, and I don't think their opinion has any real bearing on topics like this, kind of like how someone who thinks football is terrible would be a nuisance popping up on every football-related topic to remind us that, yes, this is their opinion for the millionth time. Impartial people who want to offer a substantiated criticism? Fine! 'Haters' or 'fanboys' alike, even? Personally, I'd say save it for Twitter.

e_e · 10-03-2013 1:31pm

How am I jumping on any kind of bandwagon? I wanted to like the show, I could have easily dismissed as crap after that pilot episode last year. Your line of logic doesn't make the slightest bit of sense to me anyway, that I'm somehow only allowed to carry on with shows I like from the begin which means that in essence only positive comments are allowed when I reach the end?

I don't know why you are acting as if my comments are invalid anyway, why not provide any counterarguments instead of being so overly dismissive? I'm not making any of this up to stir the pot, they are real issues I have with the show. I think the mockumentary style has become such a gimmick at this stage and it's just an excuse for having characters say what they feel towards the camera, seems like such lazy writing to me instead of having any of it coming naturally from the story. The Kev character is from a differently show entirely, the piano music seems like a forced way to make the show seem more profound than it is and Gervais' performance is overly twitchy and reliant on distracting mannerisms that take me away from his character.

Like I said I've no ill will towards Gervais, The Office was good and I'm one of the few who considers Extras to be even better. I own almost all of his stand up DVDs, follow his twitter closely and his podcast has me in tears of laughter so much (still haven't seen Life's Too Short, for what it's worth). If anyone was hyped up for this show, it was me.

ricero · 10-03-2013 2:13pm

This show ****ing rules ! Ricky gervais is a king

jcsoulinger · 10-03-2013 3:09pm

I felt the finale not so much plucked at the heart strings as tugged and dragged at them to the point of nausea. Im a big fan of Gervais and really wanted to like this, but this over emotional stuff is not typical of gervais and in general im not a fan of this kind of tv so I was never gonna like it any way. Hope Ricky has other projects in the pipe line other than the second series of this which I wont be watchig.

This argument of if you didnt like it why did you keep watching it is ridiculous. I watched out of intrest, I am a gervais and pilkington fan I hoped it would improve i felt it didnt, I was forced to watch it as part of prisoner rehabilation programme, what ever my reasons for watching it, I am allowed to express my opinion on it. That point could be used in every debate on books, tv, film, music etc anyone has ever had. it belongs in the school yard.

leggo · 10-03-2013 4:26pm

jcsoulinger wrote: »

That point could be used in every debate on books, tv, film, music etc anyone has ever had. it belongs in the school yard.

Not really. If you said, "I've read every Twilight book and seen every movie and I think they're all terrible!"...people would ask questions. If anything, I think this sub-culture of people watching things to deliberately mock or criticise them is the anomaly in the conversation.

e_e · 10-03-2013 4:57pm

Bad analogy. Twilight adds up to about 10 or 11 hours of film and thousands of pages of writing.

Derek is 6 short episodes, less than the length of some films that are in cinemas at the moment. Would you bark at anyone who disliked Django Unchained or Zero Dark Thirty with "Well why didn't you leave 20 minutes in? Your opinion is obviously invalid! You're just a bandwagon jumping hipster."

e_e · 10-03-2013 4:59pm

Also I was unaware that there was any kind of bandwagon for or against the show. I just watched it and came to my own conclusion (didn't even look at this thread until I finished the show). Why is this so hard to believe?

leggo · 10-03-2013 5:14pm

e_e wrote: »

Bad analogy. Twilight adds up to about 10 or 11 hours of film and thousands of pages of writing.

Derek is 6 short episodes, less than the length of some films that are in cinemas at the moment. Would you bark at anyone who disliked Django Unchained or Zero Dark Thirty with "Well why didn't you leave 20 minutes in? Your opinion is obviously invalid! You're just a bandwagon jumping hipster."

Ah here, judge not lest ye be judged and all that: you don't have to come back every week for 6 weeks to watch a movie. Now THAT'S a terrible analogy. Episodic TV is nothing like a movie. That's like saying that it's comparable to a book that someone could read in 3 hours, i.e. it's not. At all. The comparison is based on something you constantly opt to come back to. If you didn't get that, it doesn't make it a 'bad analogy', just one you don't seem to grasp.

There's been an anti-Gervais bandwagon for god knows how long...how can you claim to be such a fan yet have missed this? Did you see the backlash from the Golden Globes (there was praise in equal measure too)? Life's Too Short? None of this rings a bell? It's very much 'in' to hate on the guy, to the point where people seem to consume pretty much everything he puts out for the sole purpose of finding new material to do so.

Now before you ignore the edit key again and make several more posts addressing this one individual reply: I'm not saying that's specifically you. I don't know you. You just happened to give that exact opinion, the same kind of review that I would've been able to write on these peoples' behalf before the show even aired. That's my review of your review and I, like you, am entitled to hold that opinion. So deal with it and please don't have me check back to find another 76 posts in reply to this one that you could've easily congested into a single post.

e_e · 10-03-2013 5:19pm

erm... you used a movie analogy first by referencing Twilight. ...and who's to say I didn't watch much of Derek in one sitting? You can record an entire series and watch 'em in one go y'know.

He literally has millions of fans anyway, or course there's gonna be a few that don't enjoy his work. Doesn't mean they can't have their own say about it.

leggo · 10-03-2013 5:22pm

leggo wrote: »

The comparison is based on something you constantly opt to come back to. If you didn't get that, it doesn't make it a 'bad analogy', just one you don't seem to grasp.

There. I've put it in bold text for you now. Do you finally have a handle on this analogy?

e_e · 10-03-2013 5:29pm

Yeah and you're comparing something that takes 11 hours to sit through with something that takes 2 and can easily be tackled in one sitting.

This is getting ridiculously pedantic. I am still yet to grasp this logic that I'm somehow only entitled to say nice things if I sat through it from start to finish.

leggo · 10-03-2013 5:32pm

There's another opinion you're not grasping. Read the posts properly before you add 40 replies to them.

e_e · 10-03-2013 5:34pm

I've read them several times and I assure you, I'm still none the wiser as to the logic you're using.

"hmm I'm not sure about this show, but let's see where it goes." How terrible of me for seeing how it pans out. :pac:

I like how you haven't provided any counterarguments to my issues with the show, anyway.

leggo · 10-03-2013 6:02pm

If you insist...

On the acting: I thought it was solid, as always. What it needed to be. Look if we were dealing with Marlon Brando standard, then it wouldn't be a half hour TV show on late on Channel 4, but the actors display extraordinary depth and carry the show beyond just a slapstick comedy, which is exactly what the script calls for. So, for what it is and the budget a show like this would get, that's an extraordinary feat.

On the use of Coldplay's 'Fix You': I thought it was a good choice of song, both mainstream enough to connect with the audience Gervais is looking to speak to with this show and also juxtaposing how Derek may appear, at first glance, to be the one that needs 'fixing' but how instead it is he who 'fixes' the lives of those around him. Did you pick up on that - as you haven't addressed what the song actually meant in the context of the show and how it may have impacted it positive or negatively - or did the fact that it was on X Factor before, this one time, just spoil it for you? Could you perhaps suggest a song that would be better suited to that theme?

On the episode: It wasn't my favourite one but the change of style was fitting for a series finale and some of the writing was absolutely phenomenal, the kind of depth you can only get in writing by personal experiencing some of the issues discussed (particularly when it comes to Kev). It also answers the oft-heard criticism that this show was a one-trick pony, recycling the same episode over and over. This was a complete change of pace.

On the fact that it seeks to make people cry: ...that's not a new concept in the arts. I don't exactly see why that counts as a negative. Did you hate Toy Story 3, too, because I know a lot of people who cried at that and I don't think that was an accident on the part of the scriptwriters?

jcsoulinger · 10-03-2013 6:09pm

leggo wrote: »

Not really. If you said, "I've read every Twilight book and seen every movie and I think they're all terrible!"...people would ask questions. If anything, I think this sub-culture of people watching things to deliberately mock or criticise them is the anomaly in the conversation.

I think Your question is still ridiculous its none of your business why said person would continue watching twilight if they dont like it its not a valid counter argument.

e_e · 10-03-2013 6:14pm

leggo wrote: »

If you insist...

On the acting: I thought it was solid, as always. What it needed to be. Look if we were dealing with Marlon Brando standard, then it wouldn't be a half hour TV show on late on Channel 4, but the actors display extraordinary depth and carry the show beyond just a slapstick comedy, which is exactly what the script calls for. So, for what it is and the budget a show like this would get, that's an extraordinary feat.

On the use of Coldplay's 'Fix You': I thought it was a good choice of song, both mainstream enough to connect with the audience Gervais is looking to speak to with this show and also juxtaposing how Derek may appear, at first glance, to be the one that needs 'fixing' but how instead it is he who 'fixes' the lives of those around him. Did you pick up on that - as you haven't addressed what the song actually meant in the context of the show and how it may have impacted it positive or negatively - or did the fact that it was on X Factor before, this one time, just spoil it for you? Could you perhaps suggest a song that would be better suited to that theme?

On the episode: It wasn't my favourite one but the change of style was fitting for a series finale and some of the writing was absolutely phenomenal, the kind of depth you can only get in writing by personal experiencing some of the issues discussed (particularly when it comes to Kev). It also answers the oft-heard criticism that this show was a one-trick pony, recycling the same episode over and over. This was a complete change of pace.

On the fact that it seeks to make people cry: ...that's not a new concept in the arts. I don't exactly see why that counts as a negative. Did you hate Toy Story 3, too, because I know a lot of people who cried at that and I don't think that was an accident on the part of the scriptwriters?

It's funny you should mention Toy Story 3, I was considering using it as an example of a story that does pay off in the end and is very moving. It's one of my favorite movies. I don't even take issue with it making people cry, I don't know where you got that from. People are free to respond to the show however they like, I am just stating how I felt about it.

Also if you want to be made feel like a real blubbering wreck, watch the animated movie Grave of the Fireflies.

leggo · 10-03-2013 6:15pm

jcsoulinger wrote: »

I think Your question is still ridiculous its none of your business why said person would continue watching twilight if they dont like it its not a valid counter argument.

It's perfectly valid to question the integrity, credibility or any ulterior motives that may go into a critique. On one hand, people want the right to have an opinion, but don't want others to have the right to criticise or question their opinion. I'm commenting on the comments of others, i.e. generating discussion. You want people to be able to have their say and not be questioned. Sorry man, this whole 'everyone is entitled to opinion' malarkey works both ways.

Derek (Ricky Gervais and Karl Pilkington Sitcom)

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