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Eurogamer hits a nerve
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And Dead Space is an example of how investment in an original IP can work out, doubly so when you look at the initial sales of Dead Space 2. Do note though that it was a perfect example of a slow burner in terms of sales and was certainly a worry for EA initially.what about Dead Space? its easy to forget it was a pretty unhyped release, it came out before Resi 5 and completely surpassed it in terms of production, atmosphere and gameplay. As well as having still brilliant graphics and some of the greatest sound design in a game of this generation imo.
Given the choice at the time people would have been way more hyped for a new Resi game instead of this Resi meets Event Horizon pretender to the throne, now people would probably be more hyped for DS2 than Resi 6 after the disappointment of 5.
so a new IP can become something huge when the effort is put in, and lets be fair DS1 is in no way a shoddy game in any department that needed a sequel to fix anything, and the Dead Space universe is more expanded than most franchises that have been around twice as long, with comics, two animated movies one decent spinoff (Extraction) and one ok admittedly sh1te one in that stupid puzzle thing on xbla, EA did a great job of using media outside the game to tell a bigger story.
But what about Mirrors Edge, Enslaved, Bayonetta, Vanquish, Okami or older titles like Beyond Good & Evil and even *gulp* Grim Fandango? Plenty of effort was put into those titles but they never reached the level of commercial acclaim they deserved. Of course, that all lead to different things, Platinum are more than likely making another Bayonetta title but LucasArts stopped developing adventures games and we're still waiting on a BG&E sequel.
My worry, as I stated above, is that publishers will look at the larger number of these commercially unsuccessful titles and re-evaluate their investment in this "riskier" new IP.0 -
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Mass consumerism has finally come to Computer Gaming in a big scale and this is how gamers are reacting. Personally I find it shockingly disappointing that I have friends who will instantly buy Call of Duty as soon as it comes out because they feel they have to. It's a real shame to see people who I knew as Gamers have turned into Consumers. I've played BLOPS and it's a decent game, but it's also a boring game. There is nothing original in it, just refinement on what they know is a winning formula.
But with every art-form, there are those who churn out "radio friendly unit shifters" and there are actual artists - The Call of Duty and FIFA's of this world are the computer gaming equivalent of XFactor winners and Boy Bands - mass generic appeal, but nothing distinctive and a massive fan base with no actual appreciation of the art, just content in the knowledge that they know what they like and are happy to live in their bubble.
Dave isn't any less of a person but he's not a gamer in our (we the regulars of Boards.ie's Gaming forum, we who have worked our way up from 8bit eras and having to worry about having SB16 compatible drivers etc) traditional sense of the word though. So few of the teeny-boppers who buy Jedward's CD will never be able to understand why Mozart was one of the greatest creators of music this planet's ever seen.
you don't have to like it, but you have to at least acknowledge that it's here to stay.
Great post. I've been discussing this with my housemates a lot recently, as one of them is a middling Tekken 6 player, while the other is on the edge, pushing towards the upper tiers. He's debating the social aspect of it and all that, but that's a little off topic.
I use the music analogy for it too. Just to lock onto the Jedward thing....yes I agree that most will never be able to see why Mozart was better, mainly because they will never be educated in the 'why', but also because they just simply like Jedward. There is an AWFUL elitism in 'art' (read:classical) music with regards to pop (read: everything that isn't classical). It's shameful that some musicologists will regard jazz as a lower form of commercialism, or over-look the brilliance of a musician such as Katie Melua (just an example). Anyway, sorry, getting to a point.....
I really love Mozart. But I also love listening to pop. Girls aloud are/were commercial poo, but crickey they made some fantastic tunes. I love playing these epically brilliant games like Red Dead, or those hidden gems like Psycho-nauts, but I'll readily admit MW1 and 2 rocked my boat.
I suppose what I'm saying is, sometimes I wonder why it has to be so black and white with some people. The elitism I see in gaming sometimes reminds me too much of academic snobbery. (I'm not saying that's you Kharn, I agree with your post, just a general statement!
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Ah but the problem with this logic is that the "Daves" of the world don't read Eurogamer or other publications. On that note, most of the reviews will usually say that little has changed but that, as those fans above have said, there's very little that needs "fixing" per say. Of course it'd be nice if they didn't piss around with the multiplayer so much with the addition of the god-awful killstreaks but that's an argument for another thread.The irony here is that the COD series is not the evil disease within gaming (its simple fun with a capital F), its more likely the commercial review game sites like Eurogamer- who more often than not tell the 'Daves' of this world that every new iteration of a game is waaaaay better than the last, often when it does not appear to be.
And this is what worries people, will they be there? Games are most like movies in this respect, with the amount of money required to develop them differing wildly depending on the scale of the project, studios may only want to put money into sure things. And we all know how that turned out...Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull. :pac:Like all other entertainment/ art mediums artistic and commercial outputs will exist together, to hopefully cater for all. And similarly you will just have to search that little bit harder to find the 'Braids' than you will for the COD's - but they will be there for whoever wants which.0 -
Ah but the problem with this logic is that the "Daves" of the world don't read Eurogamer or other publications. On that note, most of the reviews will usually say that little has changed but that, as those fans above have said, there's very little that needs "fixing" per say. Of course it'd be nice if they didn't piss around with the multiplayer so much with the addition of the god-awful killstreaks but that's an argument for another thread.
And this is what worries people, will they be there? Games are most like movies in this respect, with the amount of money required to develop them differing wildly depending on the scale of the project, studios may only want to put money into sure things. And we all know how that turned out...Indiana Jones and the Crystal Skull. :pac:
I understand the genuine worry regarding availability of original IP but I believe that if non mainstream output can exist in the other entertainment/ art mediums then there is no reason to believe that it won't exist in gaming. I fell we have precedents of this worry previously in music and cinema, but they were unfounded. I believe that due to human nature it has always been difficult to actually kill the output from those who really love their medium and wish to produce quality despite modern commercial requirements.
So, on the same day that say Jedward/ Rhianna (whoever?? mainstream product) was at no. 1 last October (sorry, I don't know who actually was), Arcade Fire (slightly mainstream but quite good IMHO) played somewhere in Dublin yet I chose to see GY!BE (not mainstream) a week later in The Pod, with a full house. All produce music and all co exist, subscribe to whomever you wish - Burial or Boyzone, Rhianna or Red Neck Manifesto, Coldplay or Caribou, Mika or Moderat.....
Cinema is a good example - some similarities to gaming. In 2000 mainstream Hollywood back slapped itself over the production of American Beauty, but were over the top on its praise (good movie, not deserving of the praise it got). Yet the same institution that year completely ignored what many (incl. myself) believe to be the first cinematic masterpiece of this millenium - the non mainstream 'Dancer in the Dark'. 'Them', 'The Garage', '2046' - great non mainstream movies (IMHO again); the list goes on despite Michael Bay/ Gerry Bruckheimer and the mass populace preferences.
I stand by my comment - quality independant produce will always be there. Sure look at the gaming passion on this thread alone, note the quantity of posts on the minecraft and Demons Souls threads; success of XBLA.
BTW, I have that Indiana Jones movie recorded for viewing soon - or :mad:? Surely :):). 0 -
Well yes, to question the very existence of this new IP is somewhat over the top on my behalf. I guess it's the ratio of quality to **** titles that I'm more worried about, something which has certainly affected other forms of media in the last number of years.I understand the genuine worry regarding availability of original IP but I believe that if non mainstream output can exist in the other entertainment/ art mediums then there is no reason to believe that it won't exist in gaming. I fell we have precedents of this worry previously in music and cinema, but they were unfounded. I believe that due to human nature it has always been difficult to actually kill the output from those who really love their medium and wish to produce quality despite modern commercial requirements.
But yes, we'll also always still have the indie scene for such new IP but just like in movies, I do like my quality big budget releases too.
Don't go there, just don't...BTW, I have that Indiana Jones movie recorded for viewing soon - or :mad:? Surely :):). 0 -
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I meant no dis-respect folks - apologies if it was seen as a slap in the face or condemnation of taste etc. What we write here folks is our individual opinion, lets never forget that. It's how this site works. Terror, you seem to have taken it very personally - classic self loathing case
(that is a joke sir. I respect a lot of what you wrote, but I think you may be taking me too literally and personally, I was talking about *my* friends)
Anyway, to the point. Some great posts made debating the merits of this, I'm never disappointed by the good folk here when we sink our teeth into things
I'm not suggesting we try to fight the tide on this issue, nor am I suggesting it's the end of all good things. I certainly haven't suggested anywhere that it's wrong of people (my own friends included) to enjoy these games, whatever my opinion. However, I am someone who has appreciated games of all sorts for many, many years, I like to think that I am more knowledgeable than the average "Dave" (and not our Mr E ) on the subject and history and art that is computer gaming. That's not me being a snob, that's a statement of fact that someone who has loved this medium of entertainment for as long as I have has a vast wealth of experience to draw on when weighing up the good and bad points of a game.
Looking at it from another side: a €12 bottle of Santa Rita Cab Sav that you buy in Dunnes isn't a bad bottle of wine (personally, I really like it), but to someone who's a connoisseur and who's spent many years developing their appreciation for a tasty bottle of wine, they probably won't have any real interest in drinking it on an evening at home, but maybe with dinner at a friend's house if that's what's being served.
A game like BLOPS which has come out only a year after it's predecessor (which in turn came out very shortly after its own predecessor), whilst enjoyable, simply doesn't interest me because I've played the Modern Day FPS thing to death (Battlefield 2, CoD4, Ghost Recon, MW2, Bad Company 2, Medal of Honour, BLOPS, hell even Counter Strike to a point). With the sports games, a former housemate and I had a very old copy of Pro Evo on the PS2 and because he was a art student git with loads of free time, he used to manually update the teams every season and create any new players that were missing (we even had a "Classic Ireland" team with Charlton era players to play all the other in-game "classic" teams). We didn't feel the need to go buy the latest game cause we already had a soccer game we both really enjoyed playing. That said, in the interest of fair play, I noticed a big difference (improvement I felt) between FIFA 10 and 11, but less so between 9 and 10. But, I would never have bought these games only I was sent them to review them (I know I've mentioned the Boards.ie/EA advertising deal before and in case some aren't aware, I'm the Community Manager of Boards.ie).
To suggest that they can't simply roll out a simple update to modify all teams accordingly after transfer seasons etc is nonsense. They release a brand new game every time because they know Dave will lap it up. Dave isn't the only one of course, but Dave makes them their big bucks because he's gonna need his Online Pass (which is free for the moment, but don't be surprised when that changes too) and he's also likely to pay his 800 points for the live data and of course his 1200 points for his COD/HALO/Insert "pop" game of choice map packs.
As an aside: who remembers when these things were free? I do and they were expected to be free. And whilst I'm asking the question, who remembers when these things were community and not corporate driven? Maybe that's derailing this particular topic and tbh, I think we've been down that road here before and I have a personal preference for community driven but corporately supported things of this nature.
Back on topic...
(slightly tangential rant incoming, please bear with me as I have a point)
I despise what "the pop music industry" has done to music in general. I define this "industry" as the various cogs in the wheel that churn out boy bands, pop starlets, kiddie stars etc - the managers, the record companies, the 1 guy who seems to write all these "new" pop songs, the radio stations who play them and the massive retail chains that push them. It's gotten so bad that the poor sods who like how that sort of "by the numbers" nonsense sounds think they can make it too and put themselves on television to do so. It's a real shame that so many genuinely talented people have to whore and degrade themselves in such a manner to become what they think musicians and artist are.
I have no real issue with people making (or indeed spending) money on this stuff, but please don't insult my intelligence by trying to tell me it's art (it barely qualifies as music).
We've seen this happen with TV (Big Brother, Wife Swap, Master Chef, etc, etc) and we've seen how Hollywood can churn out some gods-awful by the numbers tripe too because it'll simply make money.
My point: I fear the very same mass consumerism, "by the numbers" approach is happening now to gaming and that disappoints me.
Unfortunately, there are a lot of people like to be told what to do and what to like and simply don't have the capacity to think outside of the box of how they were raised. How many people in this fair isle of ours have ever thought to question their Catholic upbringing or why they're so determined to vote Fianna Fáil because it's what their parents did? I don't think these people are stupid, I think they've been bombarded by so many mixed messages that to try and figure it out is far too difficult and being different is frowned upon in our society (says this obscure heavy metal loving, computer game playing, pagan who was using the internet 10 years before most of his friends had even heard of it).
TL;DR:
Pop music isn't in and of itself a bad thing and neither is "pop gaming." I'm not using that term in a disparaging or negative way, pop means popular and in a world where the majority rules, that's the way things go. I've got no beef with Dave and his friends, I don't think less of them as people, but I would suggest they might want to broaden their horizons - it might just be fun...0 -
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Just checking Twitter before bed and saw this link which I've only skimmed over, but I think has some relevance. I'm gonna give it a full read tomorrow when I'm less sleepy.
Thanks for that, it's pretty accurate in fairness. I made a similarish point on my own blog a while ago (don't worry I won't post a link, I'm not a spammer) and it's true, for all the clamouring we do for a new ip we just go buy the latest sequel to anything we liked. I own more Mario games than any reasonable human should, so at times I'm no better.
I guess the issue is that success is measured in sequels, and any new game that comes out ends up described as 'good, and the sequel should sort out any flaws' - I heard this about Dead Space, Mirror's Edge, Mass Effect and a fair few others. It's counter-productive in the end, because new games are full of creativity and sequels replace that with 'polish' to the point they become bland. The CoD and GTA games are the prime examples of this for me.0 -
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landsleaving wrote: »Thanks for that, it's pretty accurate in fairness. I made a similarish point on my own blog a while ago (don't worry I won't post a link, I'm not a spammer) and it's true, for all the clamouring we do for a new ip we just go buy the latest sequel to anything we liked. I own more Mario games than any reasonable human should, so at times I'm no better.
I guess the issue is that success is measured in sequels, and any new game that comes out ends up described as 'good, and the sequel should sort out any flaws' - I heard this about Dead Space, Mirror's Edge, Mass Effect and a fair few others. It's counter-productive in the end, because new games are full of creativity and sequels replace that with 'polish' to the point they become bland. The CoD and GTA games are the prime examples of this for me.
Thought that link was a load of BS in all fairness. The comparison of Enslaved and Kane and Lynch 2 was way off. Any sane gamer with a lick of sense would have stayed well away from Kane and Lynch 2, those million salesno doubt made up by the yob gamer looking for something even more violent than CoD and ending up with a stinker.
Then there's Enslaved. Enslaved didn't fail because it was marketed to a hardcore market. Enslaved failed because it was marketed to nobody. I knew nothing about enslaved or the fact that it was even coming out until I saw an advert for it on the back of retrogamer magazine and then dismissed it because it told me nothing about the game. Next thing I know the games released out of nowhere. Enslaved failed not because it was made to appeal to the hardcore crowd, because it was as main stream a gaming experience as they come. It failed because it was a multi million dollar production with terrible marketing. I would regard myself as pretty clued in to what is happening in gaming but for a game this big to totally pass me by like that is a remarkable failure on the marketing deparments part to build hype for it's product.
The other games they mention are also victims of this with one exception. Psychonauts was released during a very busy time wasn't marketed at all and was bound to get low sales due to the poor handling of it's marketing, nobody but people clued into gaming knew the game existed. Same deal with Okami.
The exception was gitaroo man, a game that was actually successful but the author just wants to look at it's sales figures. Gitaroo man was a game made to cater to the very niche hardcore crowd and knew that this market is small. It didn't sell many copies but it turned in a profit since it was made on an appropriately small budget.
The fact is hardcore gamers won't run out and buy any old rubbish sequel like Kane and Lynch 2 and do take chances on new IPs, like psychonauts and beyond good and evil. However when you don't market these games properly then don't be surprised that the only people that even know your product exists or know it's good are the small minority that are clued into the industry. The hardcore market is very small and won't make you back that multi million dollar budget. If you have a game that cost you millions to make you sure as hell want to make that back and the only way you are going to do that is by letting people know that the game is out there and convince people that they want it. Enslaved didn't fail because it was marketed to a small minority, it failed because it was a game suited to a large demographic that didn't know the game existed. The publisher can only be blamed if they sneak a product on the shelves and expect it to sell with no marketing push or release a risk new innovative IP during a time period with lots of big name titles being released. Case in point, Sega releasing Resonance of Fate the same day as Final Fantasy XIII is released and the same week as Shin Megami Tensei Strange Journey, two games that had Resonance of Fates target audience of the casual and hardcore JRPG fan sewn up respectively.
Publishers can give out about gamers not supporting new IPS but they only have themselves to blame. They forget the times when hardcore gamers do their marketing departments work for them. Dead Space sold horribly at first and was marketed poorly with poor reviews until hardcore gamers word of mouth got around that the reviewers didn't know their arse from their elbows and it was a great game. It's lead to EA getting a new franchise out of it. Then Demon's Souls which Sony expected sales of only 40,000 until hardcore gamers started to spread the word about how good it was leading to sales of over a million worldwide and Sony regretting the fact that they never took a chance on a game and missed out on most of those sales through sheer incompetence.
So publishers, if you have something to sell then start selling it to customers. Give the game a marketing budget that compliments the money spent on development. You can't sell someone a game when they don't even know they want it or don't even know it exists.
Also remember how CoD became as big as it did. Going up against the juggernaut of Halo, word got around that Modern Warfare was a much better game than Halo 3 and a combination of this hardcore gamer word of mouth and a great marketing push by Activision made the series what it is today.
Still think CoD needs to make some radical changes. I remember when the first game was a breath of fresh air for FPS games on the PC, now it just feels so stale.
Don't get me started on blaming hardcore gamers on DS piracy as well. 'Do you think a middle-aged mother of four who plays Brain Training is downloading ROMs?' Eh yeah I do because I know that every kid and lots of mature adults all have R4 cards. Why did GTA Chinatown Wars not sell on the DS? It was a mature rated game released on console with a young userbase that all pirate the games and the few older gamers that did buy the game made up for the pitiful sales of GTA. PC game piracy as well? **** right off.
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Certainly agreed with everything in your post up until this point. While you may point to the parents and mature adults who own R4 cards, so too can I point to the large number of core gamers who I know who own the same card. Publishers are thus left in a situation where they can't even rely on their core demographic, one which will usually buy their games, and so end up picking at the scrapes of those who do. Doesn't really make for a successful business plan unfortunately.Retr0gamer wrote: »Don't get me started on blaming hardcore gamers on DS piracy as well. 'Do you think a middle-aged mother of four who plays Brain Training is downloading ROMs?' Eh yeah I do because I know that every kid and lots of mature adults all have R4 cards. Why did GTA Chinatown Wars not sell on the DS? It was a mature rated game released on console with a young userbase that all pirate the games and the few older gamers that did buy the game made up for the pitiful sales of GTA. PC game piracy as well? **** right off.
I was under the impression sales of FIFA dropped dramatically as everyone switched over to the Pro Evo series when it began to outpace the former title quality wise? It was only then that EA took the finger out and really tried to innovate?People here seem to forget that Fifa games used to be god damn horrible and they still outsold Pro Evo every year. EA made a concentrated effort to get a great game from their great franchise. They worked tirelessly to fix something that numbers wise wasn't broken. That could only ever happen with Computer games so to not give them the credit for making a great game is crazy.
Passion games need big budgets too remember. While I ****ing loved Super Meat Boy and Limbo I still wouldn't want to be without the likes of Uncharted and Gears of War. As for the evidence that Daves are hurting the passion games, well look at Activisions latest announcement - the cancellation of True Crime and the foundation of a new studio devoted entirely to building DLC for the CoD series. If that doesn't show a major publisher solely concentrating on making a quick buck (1.4m copies of First Strike sold in 24hrs) rather than trying something different (True Crime for instance) then I don't know what does.I don't yet see any tangible evidence that the Daves are hurting the "Passion" games. There are still good games being developed by passionate developers. With the world in recession will that change? Will they settle for production line development to make a buck. Maybe but the Indie scene has plenty of developers lining up to replace any lost passion. So good luck to Dave for now.0 -
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Passion games need big budgets too remember. While I ****ing loved Super Meat Boy and Limbo I still wouldn't want to be without the likes of Uncharted and Gears of War. As for the evidence that Daves are hurting the passion games, well look at Activisions latest announcement - the cancellation of True Crime and the foundation of a new studio devoted entirely to building DLC for the CoD series. If that doesn't show a major publisher solely concentrating on making a quick buck (1.4m copies of First Strike sold in 24hrs) rather than trying something different (True Crime for instance) then I don't know what does.
I definitely agree that there's room for mainstream games as well as niche games. I'm not incapable of enjoying mainstream games either and did enjoy the 6 hours or so to beat BLOPS. It think that publishers are shooting themselves in the foot with these yearly updates. People are going to get bored of CoD and it's going to get stale just like what happened to instrument based rhythm games and it's all down to the 2 year development periods that leave no room to innovate.
I also hate some of their money grabbing practices that actually damage the experience. I believe that these map packs should be free and 15 euros for them is way too much. I find that when a paid for map pack comes out it only serves to split the multiplayer community between the haves and have nots and for less popular games it can kill the community especially now that there's no dedicated servers.
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