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Are you going to pay the household charge? [Part 1]

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Comments

  • #2752
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,386 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    mikom wrote: »
    And the next election will have the property tax as one of its main battlegrounds...... should it even last that long.

    The next election is due in 2016 by which time I would expect any incoming administration to continue with the existing set up. Like Sinn Fein did in the North. If the Government falls before then on this issue then obviously the new administration couldn't continue with a property tax.

    If they wanted to broaden tax revenues they might increase income tax but my preferred option would be a wealth tax. Contrary to what I wrote a few pages back the amount held by private savers in this country is around €120 billion and not €100 billion. I wasn't including about €13 billion in credit unions and other bits and pieces. The advantage of a wealth tax over a property tax is that there could be no "Can't Pay" element although as with other taxes I suppose there would be some "Won't Pay".


  • #2753
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    mikom wrote: »
    And the next election will have the property tax as one of its main battlegrounds...... should it even last that long.

    The next election is due in 2016 by which time I would expect any incoming administration to continue with the existing set up. Like Sinn Fein did in the North. If the Government falls before then on this issue then obviously the new administration couldn't continue with a property tax.

    If they wanted to broaden tax revenues they might increase income tax but my preferred option would be a wealth tax. Contrary to what I wrote a few pages back the amount held by private savers in this country is around €120 billion and not €100 billion. I wasn't including about €13 billion in credit unions and other bits and pieces. The advantage of a wealth tax over a property tax is that there could be no "Can't Pay" element although as with other taxes I suppose there would be some "Won't Pay".

    Can't see a wealth tax working its basically telling people become successful and we'll fcuk you over so your better off leaving the country and paying your taxes elsewhere


  • #2754
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Can't see a wealth tax working its basically telling people become successful and we'll fcuk you over so your better off leaving the country and paying your taxes elsewhere

    Makes a change from "Save up for a house and we'll fuck you over".


  • #2755
    The Quadratic Equation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭The Quadratic Equation


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Can't see a wealth tax working its basically telling people become successful and we'll fcuk you over so your better off leaving the country and paying your taxes elsewhere

    I am sucessful and wealthy, and I have no objection to a wealth tax, the more you earn the more % tax you should have to pay, yet the golden circle billionaires in this country get away scot free with creative accounting and tax loopholes. Let such parasites fck off to another country and the sooner the better.

    The richest 300 people in Ireland alone have a combined wealth of €57 billion, an increase of €6.7 billion in the last year. No recession for the Golden circle.


  • #2756
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    The Quadratic Equation wrote: »
    I am sucessful and wealthy, and I have no objection to a wealth tax, the more you earn the more % tax you should have to pay, yet the golden circle billionaires in this country get away scot free with creative accounting and tax loopholes. Let such parasites fck off to another country and the sooner the better.

    The richest 300 people in Ireland alone have a combined wealth of €57 billion, an increase of €6.7 billion in the last year. No recession for the Golden circle.
    That post is substantially incorrect as it refers to Irish Citizens as opposed to those living in Ireland. For instance it would include Galen Weston a Canadian Multi-Billionaire because he has Irish citizenship through marraige.
    It would also include the likes of Denis O'Brien, and AJF O'Reilly who are not resident in Ireland and consequently not liable for most if not all Irish taxes.


  • #2757
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,386 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Can't see a wealth tax working its basically telling people become successful and we'll fcuk you over so your better off leaving the country and paying your taxes elsewhere

    I only put the idea forward because it is an alternative suggested by the anti brigade. But like you say it's unlikely to be introduced. It seems that while nearly every country in Europe has property taxes very few have a wealth tax.

    http://www.socialistparty.net/economy/597-dont-believe-the-lies-ireland-is-still-rich

    The article is a year old but I can't see that the figures would have changed very much.


  • #2758
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    donalg1 wrote: »
    Can't see a wealth tax working its basically telling people become successful and we'll fcuk you over so your better off leaving the country and paying your taxes elsewhere

    Yeah fuhk off back to France and pay a wealth tax and an equitable council tax for services you actually receive.......:rolleyes:


    Trollololol


  • #2759
    The Quadratic Equation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭The Quadratic Equation


    lividduck wrote: »
    That post is substantially incorrect as it refers to Irish Citizens as opposed to those living in Ireland. It would also include the likes of Denis O'Brien, and AJF O'Reilly who are not resident in Ireland and consequently not liable for most if not all Irish taxes.

    Fully Irish when it suits, and yet 'living' in holiday homes abroad when it suits for tax purposes.
    Nice loopholes for the golden circle again. One low tax system for them and a fully taxed system for the rest of us.
    They must love the fact that Ireland is a plutocracy, and that their pathetic sycophants are determined to keep it that way for them.


  • #2760
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    The Quadratic Equation wrote: »
    I am sucessful and wealthy, and I have no objection to a wealth tax, the more you earn the more % tax you should have to pay, yet the golden circle billionaires in this country get away scot free with creative accounting and tax loopholes. Let such parasites fck off to another country and the sooner the better.

    The richest 300 people in Ireland alone have a combined wealth of €57 billion, an increase of €6.7 billion in the last year. No recession for the Golden circle.
    As i said that post is factually incorrect.


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  • #2761
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    The Quadratic Equation wrote: »
    Fully Irish when it suits, and yet 'living' in holiday homes abroad when it suits for tax purposes.
    Nice loopholes for the golden circle again. One low tax system for them and a fully taxed system for the rest of us.
    They must love the fact that Ireland is a plutocracy, and that their pathetic sycophants are determined to keep it that way for them.
    So how do you propose that the state levies a tax on individuals who are neither domiciled nor resident here, actually since they dont reside here why shoild they pay tax here?


  • #2762
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    lividduck wrote: »
    So how do you propose that the state levies a tax on individuals who are neither domiciled nor resident here, actually since they dont reside here why shoild they pay tax here?

    Same argument could be made for the second/holiday home tax.


  • #2763
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    mikom wrote: »
    Same argument could be made for the second/holiday home tax.
    Im not sure how, most of the second homes are owned by Irish residents anyway. Im not trying to justify a God awful tax system but I dont see how you can demand taxes from people who dont live here.
    Instead of ranting on about "Golden Circles" etc we would be much better looking at the failed tax system that we do have and demanding that it is radically overhauled so that all income is taxed and taxed progressivley.
    What is so unreasonable about that?


  • #2764
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    lividduck wrote: »
    So how do you propose that the state levies a tax on individuals who are neither domiciled nor resident here, actually since they dont reside here why shoild they pay tax here?

    Ah now, that practice is common enough.
    The decision by the UK Government to levy “non-domiciled” individuals an annual fixed sum of £30,000 makes Ireland a very attractive alternative location for high net worth individuals, Alan Murray, a director in the Private Client tax specialist group with accountants and business consultants Mazars says
    .


  • #2765
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    squod wrote: »
    Ah now, that practice is common enough.

    .
    I would have thought that 30,000 wouldnt mean much to the likes of Denis O'Brien etc.
    On the other hand we dont have anywhere near as many HNW's as the Uk, so it would really only be a PR exercise.
    What we need is a system of ensuring that those who live here actually pay tax on all income, a euro is a Euro and all income should be subject to tax regardless of source. There are way too many tax avoidence measures available to those who can afford them.
    Why is one type of income subject to USc while others are not.


  • #2766
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    lividduck wrote: »
    On the other hand we dont have anywhere near as many HNW's as the Uk, so it would really only be a PR exercise.

    There's a few with the border where it is like. Couple lads I've worked for do it.

    There's another issue of money leaving the state. Sent home by foreign workers. Not that I'm begrudging them. But if everyone is to be taxed on everything across the board.........


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  • #2767
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    squod wrote: »
    There's a few with the border where it is like. Couple lads I've worked for do it.

    There's another issue of money leaving the state. Sent home by foreign workers. Not that I'm begrudging them. But if everyone is to be taxed on everything across the board.........
    Well if they have paid tax on it let them send it home.
    My issue is with those not paying tax and the rest of us getting screwed


  • #2768
    donalg1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,513 ✭✭✭donalg1


    squod wrote: »
    donalg1 wrote: »
    Can't see a wealth tax working its basically telling people become successful and we'll fcuk you over so your better off leaving the country and paying your taxes elsewhere

    Yeah fuhk off back to France and pay a wealth tax and an equitable council tax for services you actually receive.......:rolleyes:


    Trollololol

    ??


  • #2769
    The Quadratic Equation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭The Quadratic Equation


    lividduck wrote: »
    As i said that post is factually incorrect.

    It is completely factual if you include those Irish tax exiles trying to dodge paying any Irish taxes.
    Perhaps we should all pretend to live somewhere else as well ?


  • #2770
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    The Quadratic Equation wrote: »
    It is completely factual if you include those Irish tax exiles trying to dodge paying any Irish taxes.
    Perhaps we should all pretend to live somewhere else as well ?
    It is factually incorrect if you remove those individuals who merely hold Irish Passports, such as Galen Weston or Pallonji Mistry who do not reside here.
    I notice that you have no problem with huge multi-nationals transferring their profits here for tax purposes (Which benifits our tax take hugely) But you complain when Irish people living abroad choose, as is thier right not to be tax domiciled here.
    Of the Richest people living here, they appear to be doing so legally, it is the tax code which needs changing.


  • #2771
    The Quadratic Equation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭The Quadratic Equation


    lividduck wrote: »
    My issue is with those not paying tax and the rest of us getting screwed

    Yet you choose to defend and ignore the Irish billionaires that pay little or no taxes. lol


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  • #2772
    lividduck
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,250 ✭✭✭lividduck


    The Quadratic Equation wrote: »
    Yet you choose to defend and ignore the Irish billionaires that pay little or no taxes. lol
    No..I attack the system that allows them to.


  • #2773
    The Quadratic Equation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭The Quadratic Equation


    lividduck wrote: »
    No..I attack the system that allows them to.

    They control the system for their own benefit, to the complete detrement of the ordinary citizen, that's the point.

    Ireland is a plutocracy, where we pay the Golden circle's private speculation debts for them, while they enjoy their profits.

    They are free to act however they like, with total and utter impunity, at our expense.


  • #2774
    Hijpo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,884 ✭✭✭Hijpo


    lividduck wrote: »
    The Quadratic Equation wrote: »
    Yet you choose to defend and ignore the Irish billionaires that pay little or no taxes. lol
    No..I attack the system that allows them to.

    the boys in power arnt going to change the tax system to get there wealthy buddys to pay tax. As i said before the tax system is generating enough for them, while avoiding them. If they close the loopholes it puts the TDs and ministers in the ****e and that doesnt suit them. I think we pay enough for the mediocre "services" they provide us. The problem is the social fraudsters in the public the rich aswell as the "poor", the government officials living the undeserved high life through tax breaks, huge salarys and pensions. The whole country needs reform not just the tax system.


  • #2775
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,386 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    Hijpo wrote: »
    the boys in power arnt going to change the tax system to get there wealthy buddys to pay tax. As i said before the tax system is generating enough for them, while avoiding them. If they close the loopholes it puts the TDs and ministers in the ****e and that doesnt suit them. I think we pay enough for the mediocre "services" they provide us. The problem is the social fraudsters in the public the rich aswell as the "poor", the government officials living the undeserved high life through tax breaks, huge salarys and pensions. The whole country needs reform not just the tax system.

    Check out the quarterly Revenue Commissioners defaulters lists.

    http://www.examiner.ie/ireland/brother-of-boi-chief-boucher-features-on-tax-defaulter-list-147580.html


  • #2776
    P2011
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14 ✭P2011


    I'm not registering.


  • #2777
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,386 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    P2011 wrote: »
    I'm not registering.

    Last time you told us it was because you read something on the internet saying it really isn't the law at all. What is is this time?


  • #2778
    phurryphace
    Closed Accounts Posts: 44 ✭phurryphace


    Pay Caesar what Caesar is owed.


  • #2779
    squod
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,704 ✭✭✭squod


    dxhound2005 wrote: »
    Last time you told us it was because you read something on the internet saying it really isn't the law at all. What is is this time?
    Closed Account

    May have to wait for reply.


  • #2780
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    squod wrote: »
    May have to wait for reply.
    He's gone off radar.


  • #2781
    The Quadratic Equation
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,132 ✭✭✭The Quadratic Equation


    phurryphace wrote: »
    Pay Caesar what Caesar is owed.

    Indeed, but you don't render unto him what is not his.


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  • #2782
    Cantona's Collars
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭Cantona's Collars


    168,000 homes have registered for the tax,a drop in the ocean.It seems the vast majority aren't going to register and now the government are preparing to send leaflets out to every home to put the frighteners on us.How much will those leaflets cost??:rolleyes: Just another piece of paper for my recycling bin.


  • #2783
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    zerks wrote: »
    168,000 homes have registered for the tax,a drop in the ocean.It seems the vast majority aren't going to register and now the government are preparing to send leaflets out to every home to put the frighteners on us.How much will those leaflets cost??:rolleyes: Just another piece of paper for my recycling bin.

    Less than 10% registered (not all paid) with only 6 or so weeks to go.
    Delighted with the Don't register-Don't pay campaign so far.


  • #2784
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    zerks wrote: »
    168,000 homes have registered for the tax,a drop in the ocean.It seems the vast majority aren't going to register and now the government are preparing to send leaflets out to every home to put the frighteners on us.How much will those leaflets cost??:rolleyes: Just another piece of paper for my recycling bin.

    Please provide a link for your source regarding the numbers, I read an article today stating its less then five per cent have paid, it was the same two weeks ago less then five per cent.

    http://www.joe.ie/news-politics/current-affairs/over-95-havent-registered-for-household-charge-0020991-1


  • #2785
    Cantona's Collars
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 33,709 ✭✭✭✭Cantona's Collars


    Am Chile wrote: »
    Please provide a link for your source regarding the numbers, I read an article today stating its less then five per cent have paid, it was the same two weeks ago less then five per cent.

    http://www.joe.ie/news-politics/current-affairs/over-95-havent-registered-for-household-charge-0020991-1

    Was on lunchtime news on TodayFM. But as has been shown before,these figures aren't gospel.I've a feeling that 168k is a tad optimistic.


  • #2786
    ronkmonster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,181 ✭✭✭ronkmonster


    zerks wrote: »
    Was on lunchtime news on TodayFM. But as has been shown before,these figures aren't gospel.I've a feeling that 168k is a tad optimistic.
    Newstalk were mentioning just under 100k and that was slightly under 10%


  • #2787
    phog
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 24,352 ✭✭✭✭phog


    Is this true? Got it in an email and wonder is this an actual opt out from the charge?

    How you don’t have to legally pay Household Tax!!- You won’t get a bill because the charge is a Statute. People need to understand this: A Statute is a “legislated rule of society given the force of law by the consent of the governed.”(Blacks Law Dictionary 4th edition). Who are those it governs? Us, the public.

    This household charge is a Statute, otherwise known as an Act of Government and only carries the force of law upon you if you consent to it which means that your legally obliged to pay if you consent or in other words go on to householdcharge.ie and register. Your silence and inaction will also give the appearance of consent. If you do not consent, a Statute cannot affect you in any way whatsoever.


    The courts know this and the last thing they will do is tell you. In fact they will hide this from you at every opportunity they can. On the other hand, if you tell them, they will accept it because they know it is actually true. According to the above definitions a statutory instrument is a contract. If you register for this “charge” you are consenting to this statute ie: signing the contract. This is why the Government are ASKING the people to register and not just billing them instead.


  • #2788
    the groutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,096 ✭✭✭✭the groutch


    there an element of truth in that email.
    if they don't communicate to you in writing that you owe it, then you have no legal obligation to pay it.


  • #2789
    dxhound2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 21,386 ✭✭✭✭dxhound2005


    phog wrote: »
    Is this true? Got it in an email and wonder is this an actual opt out from the charge?

    That e mail has been posted many times before in the thread. Also in the Legal Discussions forum if you want to see the opinion there.

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=76845697

    There is an existing precedent with the NPPR. People are paying that for the last 3 years (340,000 in 2010) and none of them ever got a bill. I would be very sceptical of any legal advice I read on this forum.

    https://www.nppr.ie/default.aspx


  • #2790
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Latest update.
    Hi all,

    Today the report came out that 94% of People due to register and pay the Household charge have NOT done so.
    This represents a huge blow to the Government and is a shot in the arm for all those who believe that they have just had enough Austerity.

    It is clear now that there is a huge amount of householders that are prepared to resist the Governments attempt to make them pay for the "luxury "of living in their own home.

    We ask all those in the campaign to stay focussed and to spread the word into every City Town and village in this country.
    This campaign has cleared struck a cord in Irish society and if people stay united can win a major victory against the Government .

    Please see the attached newsletter and pass around as much as possible. It is a reply to the Governments propaganda that these charges are to pay for improved services.
    In reality the are clearly to pay for "your local and not so local Bondholder"

    Rember the simple message Do Not Register and Do Not Pay !!!!


    Pat Waine
    Campaign Helpdesk
    February update.

    Good news.
    They would want to brush up on the ould typos though.

    Nationwide day of protest on the 25th of February proposed as well.


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  • #2791
    Ghandee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,653 ✭✭✭Ghandee


    mikom wrote: »
    Latest update.



    Good news.
    They would want to brush up on the ould typos though.

    Scare mongering and lies are not working it seems.

    Stick it in your pipe and smoke it Kenny!


  • #2792
    Phill Ewinn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,007 ✭✭✭Phill Ewinn


    Nine TDs turned up for a photo call to rally interest in the 'don't register, don't pay' campaign. Small turn out for such an important issue.

    You'd think at least the shinners or the hapless twats remaining in FF would show face. Just goes to show how much our TDs care.


  • #2793
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    phog wrote: »
    Is this true? Got it in an email and wonder is this an actual opt out from the charge?
    Yeah. Of course it is.

















    Those emails from Nigerian Generals are also kosher.


  • #2794
    dvpower
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭dvpower


    mikom wrote: »
    Nationwide day of protest on the 25th of February proposed as well.

    That will be a better indication of the strength of the campaign than the figures for payments received, but I don't expect much from a pretty much leaderless campaign.


  • #2795
    Pete M.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,084 ✭✭✭Pete M.


    dvpower wrote: »
    That will be a better indication of the strength of the campaign than the figures for payments received, but I don't expect much from a pretty much leaderless campaign.

    Stalinist!!:eek:

    :pac:

    It's certainly going well thus far.

    I was on the train today and had a good chat with three guys; a buck from Sligo living in Longford, round 60, a country buck like, a younger fellah, round 30, and a chap from Nigeria, who has been living here for 11 years, has a house in Longford, in the seats around me, which doesn't usually happen at all. Normally I'd shun everyone and pretend to sleep.
    We all agreed that the charges were unfair and that we wouldn't be paying.


  • #2796
    Mr CJ
    Registered Users Posts: 331 ✭✭Mr CJ


    Waterford City Council has put a motion forward against the new charge!! Great work everyone keep spreading the word every where you go DONT REGISTER DONT PAY!! This will be abolished if the majority holds of registering!! Stand up and dont be a fool!!

    http://www.workerspartyireland.net/id699.html


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  • #2797
    Bruthal
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,422 ✭✭✭✭Bruthal


    Pete M. wrote: »

    I was on the train today and had a good chat with three guys; a buck from Sligo living in Longford, round 60, a country buck like, a younger fellah, round 30, and a chap from Nigeria, who has been living here for 11 years, has a house in Longford, in the seats around me, which doesn't usually happen at all. Normally I'd shun everyone and pretend to sleep.
    We all agreed that the charges were unfair and that we wouldn't be paying.

    Lucky an inspector didnt get on, but what about the household tax?:)


  • #2798
    Jake187
    Closed Accounts Posts: 75 ✭✭Jake187


    I reckon something high like 90% of people will say 'no they wont'. While truth is majority will.

    Its an individual game. No one wants to pay it. But people wont band together to not pay it. So average joe will be thinking "to hell if i am going to be the one of few getting stung by not paying it" then pays it.


  • #2799
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    Jake187 wrote: »
    I reckon something high like 90% of people will say 'no they wont'. While truth is majority will.

    Its an individual game. No one wants to pay it. But people wont band together to not pay it. So average joe will be thinking "to hell if i am going to be the one of few getting stung by not paying it" then pays it.

    Its worth noting nearly two weeks ago the figures paying and registering was less then five per cent.

    http://www.theepochtimes.com/n2/ireland/96-per-cent-of-households-fail-to-register-for-new-poperty-tax-186411.html



    two weeks later it remains the same less then five per cent.
    Less than five per cent of households have paid the household charge with only a month and a half till the deadline.


    http://www.joe.ie/news-politics/current-affairs/over-95-havent-registered-for-household-charge-0020991-1


  • #2800
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Am Chile wrote: »
    Its worth noting nearly two weeks ago the figures paying and registering was less then five per cent.

    I'm calling it here now........ no more that 20% will have paid this tax by the final day.
    Anyone else care to give an educated guess.


  • #2801
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    mikom wrote: »
    I'm calling it here now........ no more that 20% will have paid this tax by the final day.
    Anyone else care to give an educated guess.

    Based on the current level of registitrations and payments, Il put it at 15%.


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