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Football Crisis - What's to be done?
Comments
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Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
Thats a fairly minor thing to be honest and anything that favours the attacking team should be encouraged in my opinion.
I don't begrudge the free takers taking a couple of extra yards from a free as they've probably had loads of frees that haven't been awarded throughout a game also I would says it even more common for the defensive team to not move back quickly enough to allow a quick free to be taken.[/QUOTE]
"Thats a fairly minor thing to be honest and anything that favours the attacking team should be encouraged in my opinion."
So you are in favour of cheating. I'm not. Especially when a group of young men burst their guts for months on end and get to an A.Irl. semi final or final only to be ousted by some clown of a ref or a smart ass forward who ignores the rules, either by commission or omission.
No No No........frees within the scoring zone must be taken from the transgression area, not where it's almost a tap over point.
Q. why did the soccer boys introduce the white spray?0 -
Would have to totally agreeciarriaithuaidh wrote: »Larry was a fantastic player, one of the best I've ever seen..but he is fairly clueless as he proved during his ill-fated spell in charge of Cork, not to mention some of the "analysis" he has offered in the media on the game.
He was a great player but a poor poor manager and he's no position to claim moral ground considering he time cork bar one years cork were absolutely awful, he's idea training was running up hills in macroom where he hardly himself had a great interest in developing basic skills set he's team
Typical Tompkins though, no surprise, lot stuff in cork regards minor football poor performance last few years , senior he turns blind eye to it, won't speak out yet soon as there's public main story he's well able to talk
Such absolutely rubbish imo this over reaction in current state of the game
He seems to forget cork were absolutely humiliation last year to kerry playing open football yet imo wrongly seems portray cork fans don't like this style, imo I'd rather cork go defensive than be humiliation kerry any day of the week
When Tompkins won he's all Ireland in 90 the game was hardly in a great great state either football wise as Dublin meath saga was exciting and epic but hardly Barcelona style football and the all Ireland final v meath cork won from purists view was hardly imo stand out but at the end of the day didn't matter cork won
Teams that play the blanket imo have no choice to do so most of the time as lack natural football depth in talent so they have to play to their strengths and not their weakness
Imo this was not the case when cork won all Ireland in 2010 where before the blanket cork played a horrible lateral awful basket ball style football in most games when had players as year before v Tyrone proved play better football but people like Tompkins turned a blind eye
Give me the blanket any day of the week once done like donegal and kerry than that style any and every day of the week
Brolly I admire hugely as a person for work irish kidney roles etc and rated him as a pundit but I am loosing respect of him as a pundit in he's hypercrote views on this in he advocated and lauded this style for years now he against it
If he's so against derry playing the way they did why doesn't he coach their players performance on those basic skills so they are better players and wouldn't have to play a blanket style
Complete over reaction imo where people like burns creating noise about it purely as in their roles on football committee have to be seen be doing something imo0 -
Refs need to start implementing the rules for a start. The amount of black card offences that mcquillan ignored in the kerry tyrone game today was a joke. When teams can't even take advantage when a blanket defence pushes up but covers their ass when counter attacked by dragging the player to the ground what chance have you.
The black card also has to mean a sin bin as this replacement nonsense is no deterrent. The one black card kerry received today ended up with the player being replaced by Tommy walsh. Strong squads don't give a toss about black cards.0 -
Thats a fairly minor thing to be honest and anything that favours the attacking team should be encouraged in my opinion.
I don't begrudge the free takers taking a couple of extra yards from a free as they've probably had loads of frees that haven't been awarded throughout a game also I would says it even more common for the defensive team to not move back quickly enough to allow a quick free to be taken.
"Thats a fairly minor thing to be honest and anything that favours the attacking team should be encouraged in my opinion."
[/QUOTE]So you are in favour of cheating. I'm not. Especially when a group of young men burst their guts for months on end and get to an A.Irl. semi final or final only to be ousted by some clown of a ref or a smart ass forward who ignores the rules, either by commission or omission.
No No No........frees within the scoring zone must be taken from the transgression area, not where it's almost a tap over point.
Q. why did the soccer boys introduce the white spray?
The white spray was introduced to stop players charging from the wall prematurely.It favours the attacking team.
Almost every rule introduced to any sport has favoured attackers as they should as that's mainly what people want to see.
A free taker taking the ball in a couple of extra yards is a very minor thing and isn't really relevant to this discussion as stopping it is not something that will improve the game in any way.
Lots of forwards are getting fouled without it being spotted by referees and if the free taker wants to steal a couple of yards to make sure he scores that's fine its a small way of making up for all the fouls that referees don't spot during a game.0 -
The donegal mayo match will be on tg4 next I think
Have a watch and see if ye still think nothing needs to be done
HORRIBLE game0 -
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The donegal mayo match will be on tg4 next I think
Have a watch and see if ye still think nothing needs to be done
HORRIBLE game
Only watching the deferred coverage but so far the Donegal defensive game plan seem to be:
Tactic 1) Get Neil McGee to target Aidan O Shea
Tactic 2) Get Eamon McGee to target Aidan O Shea
This can work most of the time as refs will apply the idiotic 'a yellow card each rule' but jeez its horrendous to watch the ineptitude of the officials to deal with something so obvious.0 -
And you forgot to add mayo tacticsPoor_old_gill wrote: »Only watching the deferred coverage but so far the Donegal defensive game plan seem to be:
Tactic 1) Get Neil McGee to target Aidan O Shea
Tactic 2) Get Eamon McGee to target Aidan O Shea
This can work most of the time as refs will apply the idiotic 'a yellow card each rule' but jeez its horrendous to watch the ineptitude of the officials to deal with something so obvious.
tactic 1) pull any runner to the ground (well thats all really)0 -
And you forgot to add mayo tactics
tactic 1) pull any runner to the ground (well thats all really)
Agreed- they did quite a bit of that towards the end.
From watching today though it seems that the new coach has told Donegal to up the cynicism by about 80%- McGlynn, Thompson and especially the McGees were at it today in a big way.
To be honest- I dont see the point as Donegal are a good enough footballing team.0 -
There was a lot of off the ball stuff today il agree on that i just think this populist stuff of blaming donegal when there not the only ones doing it kinda builds this notion that one team is responsible for all thats wrong in the gaa.Poor_old_gill wrote: »Agreed- they did quite a bit of that towards the end.
From watching today though it seems that the new coach has told Donegal to up the cynicism by about 80%- McGlynn, Thompson and especially the McGees were at it today in a big way.
To be honest- I dont see the point as Donegal are a good enough footballing team.
Back on topic again.
I know football is far from perfect at the moment but it makes things a hell of a lot more entertaining when teams try to play to there strenghts than go an get a thumping, just remembering back to the hurling last year and the first two games sky showed and iirc it was two hammerings handed out how is that any better than showing two football teams involved in tight tense battle and i for one actually enjoyed derry dublin last week i found it very intriging watching what dublin would do to break them down what derry could do when they went behind.0 -
Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »"Thats a fairly minor thing to be honest and anything that favours the attacking team should be encouraged in my opinion."
The white spray was introduced to stop players charging from the wall prematurely.It favours the attacking team.
Almost every rule introduced to any sport has favoured attackers as they should as that's mainly what people want to see.
A free taker taking the ball in a couple of extra yards is a very minor thing and isn't really relevant to this discussion as stopping it is not something that will improve the game in any way.
Lots of forwards are getting fouled without it being spotted by referees and if the free taker wants to steal a couple of yards to make sure he scores that's fine its a small way of making up for all the fouls that referees don't spot during a game.[/QUOTE]
The white spray was introduced to stop players charging from the wall prematurely.It favours the attacking team.
That is CHEATING...........plain and simple.0 -
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Have no fear, Roscommon are on the way up to give the public a break from negative football0
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You never hear soccer people complaining about 0-0 draws, if you look at the history books all the games in the 1800's and early 1900's were also low scoring0
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Football is evolving and the stakes have got higher and higher so teams have figured out a way to level the playing field a wee bit - what's the problem?
If you start tinkering with the rules, you are setting a dangerous precedent and when the next "new system" comes along will people demand changes to combat that.
People slag off the Ulster teams for their defensive football and yet the Ulster championship is the only one worth watching or that anyone outside 1 or 2 teams have a chance of winning.
Part of the problem is the absolute crap that is spouted by so called gaa analyists on RTE about the game. RTE have a formula for their sports coverage and need a Dunphy/Hook/Spillane/Brolly to get people talking - they don't have a clue about the game and hark back to some glorious bygone era where the beautiful game was played. I've watched enough of GAA gold to know that there was some awful shi'ite played back in this golden era.
I've heard Spillane crap on about Cavan on league Sunday this year and he spouted some trite cliches about us even though it was apparent that he hadn't seen any of our games this year - he even said as much.
Brolly called Cavan the black death twice - both times the week of a Cavan v Derry game and it was just wind up tactics.
Cavan and Derry in 2013 produced one of the best games of gaelic football I have ever seen on a scorcher of a day in Celtic Park - no-one outside of the few thousand that were at that game remembers it though. Yet the amount of people that trot out the spillanisms and brollyisms about puke football is phenomenal - if people could form their own opinions that would help dampen down some of the hysteria about the negative football.
Some good points there. We tend to have a bit of a mob mentality in this country and love to sycophantically parrot the opinions of blow hards like brolly and dunphy. Brolly whinges about cynical play and win at all costs but I saw players on teand that he played in deliberately put people in hospital in order to win. Give me cowardly defensive play than manly thuggery which the Gaels of yore as he likes to call them used.
Thought jar lath burns made a complete cock of himself with that tweet. If you're on the rules review committee you can't be joining the rest of the smart arses on Twitter.
Having said that I'm in favour of rule changes to encourage a "better" game. I'd go with having to keep 4 men in opposition half, patrolled by one linesman in each half. I think this would encourage more kicking and less of the hand passing over and back on the 50 yard line ala rugby.
If you think the game needs changing write to your local club and ask them to propose a motion changing the rules.
Maybe we can have less of the copy cat hysterics about the death of the game. There's the same proportion of good and bad games now as there ever was. Just the bad games are a different type of bad game!!0 -
castletownman wrote: »One of the biggest ironies in modern Irish sport is people bemoaning the negative nature of Gaelic football and saying how boring it is to watch, yet fawn over the exploits of the Irish rugby team. Although without starting a "which sport is better" debate, there does require a modicum of attacking talent to implement a defensive gameplan AND win consistently.
So basically what I'm trying to say is I blame the explosion of the popularity of rugby on the ultra-defensive approach increasingly applied by more counties.
Agree. If we beat New Zealand 6 3 in the world cup final how many Irish people would be moaning about the death of rugby. Same goes for soccer team.
So please: think for yourself before jumping on bandwagons ðŸŽ႒0 -
klairondavis wrote: »All sports thrive on competition. Gaelic football moreso than most. Ulster football gets a lot of criticism from neutrals. Some of it is justified. However, the local crowds will flock to watch the Ulster Championship. It might not be pretty a lot of the time but almost every county believes they have a chance and that's what gives it meaning and relevance.
The obvious contrast is with Leinster football. I was at the Laois v Kildare match on Saturday evening and although the conditions were poor it was a fairly open and entertaining game. Despite this the attendance was disappointing. When both teams were competitive 15 years ago a local derby between the two would have drawn twice the crowd that was there on Saturday night. I've noticed a huge drop off in the Kildare support in recent years and it's a similar story up in Meath. They're two of the traditionally best supported counties but many matchgoers have given up because they don't see any hope of success in Leinster. On the other side of the coin Dublin's support has also dropped off. Between 1996 and 2001, Dublin couldn't win a Leinster Championship yet they would draw much bigger crowds for provincial games than they do now. A lot of fans probably think what's the point in paying €30 to watch a turkey shoot. I suspect if more Leinster teams adopted much more negative tactics there would probably be an increase in attendances because the championship would be a lot more competitive. There's no point in being easy on the eye if you're getting hammered out the gate whenever you meet a good team.
A few small tweaks to the rules would make a big difference to football:
All kickouts having to travel beyond the 45 would be a good starting point. Most teams are happy to surrender possession from a short kickout because it allows them to pull men back and pack their defence. It would also promote high fielding which is one of the great spectacles of our game and is in danger of becoming a lost art.
Give referees the power to advance the ball thirty metres rather than thirteen. It's a pity this proposal wasn't passed not so long ago. Teams strategically foul in their own half of the field to give themselves time to get their forwards back into defensive positions. The amount of quick frees that are stopped by opposition players is staggering. They'll think twice if the ball is brought forward by the referees and suddenly it becomes a scoreable free. It works very well in Australian Rules Football.
Only allow two men tackle an opponent at the one time. One of the ugliest sights in the game is when one of these rucks develop where the man in possession is surrounded by three or four opponents. Referees interpretations of these rucks are often inconsistent, particularly at club level. It is a great source of frustration for players and spectators. When there are more than two tacklers, surely they can't all be tackling the ball legally?
Abolish the black card and trial the sin bin again instead. Granted this would probably be scuppered because of the difficulties implementing it at club level. The thinking behind the black card is sound enough but it isn't really enough of a deterrent. Reducing a team to fourteen players for seven or eight minutes goes a bit further. Also widen the scope beyond the so-called 'cynical fouls' to include persistent fouling. Multiple frees against you, take a break for seven or eight minutes.
Agree with all your points except the kick out one. Making all kick outs cross the '45 means there is no incentive for teams to push up on the full backs. They ll just pull all their forwards back into midfield making it LESS likely that you'll have high fielding and increasing the amount of ugly scrap s for possession and the surrounding of anyone who does make the odd high catch0 -
That is CHEATING...........plain and simple.
If It favours the attacking team I don't really have a problem with players taking the ball a couple of yards closer to the goal to take a free.It favours attacking teams which is what most people want and it should provide an extra incentive not to foul if free taker make free's easier for themselves.
It's a very minor breaking of the rules and anyway referees and linesmen can easily spot it and tell the free taker to bring the ball back,so it's a fairly easy thing to deal with a minor issue within the game(I don't think it even is an issue for the majority of people) so I don't think the GAA should be focusing on fixing things that aren't really a problem.0 -
I think there's possibly more complaining about Donegal being misunderstood than complaining about Donegal these days.
Yeah but the person complaining about Donegal is on the national airwaves about once a week and has a weekly column in the biggest selling newspaper and a column in another gaa paper bangin on about the same thing week in week out so that kinda outweighs the few people complaining about Donegal being misunderstood. Also when he runs out of rant material he starts making up blatant lies like last spring when he said the Donegal players didn't like playing for mcguinness.
A small portion of what he says has some point to it but the majority is just shrill hyperbole totally lacking in intellectual rigour.0 -
davegrohl48 wrote: »Okay I'll qualify posession drill with one point. Where the square being used is too small, I guess that's simply bad coaching. I'll admit in the larger square when you have space to move about it can be enjoyable.
Every game is not meant to be a super bowlesque match but peoples concerns is the visual appearance of play and common scorelines of 9 pts - 7 pts etc.
AFAIK the 2014 championship had the highest scoring average ever so that would suggest the 9-7 scorelines are less common now0 -
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Some good points made on this thread. However, like this poster I came on to this thread after enduring the Meath Cavan game yesterday. It was horrible to watch the blanket defence and then when forwards got into scoring positions the shooting was very poor.The donegal mayo match will be on tg4 next I think
Have a watch and see if ye still think nothing needs to be done
HORRIBLE game
LMFM analyst Mattie Kerrigan said during the game that if Dublin Derry was bad last week then it could not possibly be worse than this or words to that effect.
With this type of spectacle in the league and the complete non event that is the various Leinster championships I just dont know where it's going. I have been going for 30 years to Meath games but the joy/interest/excitement is gone. It's just not that Meath are poor but Leinster football outside Dublin is dying. I havent checked the stats but quite a few Leinster teams relegated this year. I am sure a comparison of league standings of Leinster teams outside Dublin vs say 10/15 years ago makes stark reading.0 -
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Having said that I'm in favour of rule changes to encourage a "better" game. I'd go with having to keep 4 men in opposition half, patrolled by one linesman in each half.
I'm really worried by this proposition. You can't make tactics illegal, coaches have a right to express themselves as much as players. We could end up with a game that looks like dodgeball.
The changes the FDC proposed in the nineties are still more relevant than ever. They took a serious look at the game and recommended a number of tweaks - most importantly playing 13-a-side at senior intercounty.
It's already been tried and tested in numerous u21 championships, not to mention overseas games and it provides a faster, more attacking game with more one-on-ones and more scores. You're not telling players where they have to stand on a pitch, where they can and can't run - that's not football.0 -
klairondavis wrote: »
Only allow two men tackle an opponent at the one time. One of the ugliest sights in the game is when one of these rucks develop where the man in possession is surrounded by three or four opponents. Referees interpretations of these rucks are often inconsistent, particularly at club level. It is a great source of frustration for players and spectators. When there are more than two tacklers, surely they can't all be tackling the ball legally?.
I've considered this myself but ultimately abandoned the idea, it's too restrictive. The lads are just trying to defend. Do you try to limit soccer players from bunching in front of goal and using their bodies to block a shot? No.
What you can do is deter players from running the ball into 'rucks' in the first place. Restrict all players to 3 steps only. Allow them to bounce the ball any number of times they like as compensation but now running the ball into crowded areas will more than likely get you penalised for over-carrying. Result - less rucks.0 -
In addition to the above points, Leinster football is in rag order. What is it after yesterday 8 out of 11 in divisions 3 and 4?
Leinster football is completely uneven no matter what criteria you look at. Dublin are so far in front there is a real danger of other counties essentially giving up.
Dublin have a bigger population than the rest of the province combined.
Dublin have a higher level of funding than the rest of the country combined according to this article:
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/dublin-claiming-the-bulk-of-gaa-s-development-funds-1.2091641
It is looking like we are going into another year of complete Dublin domination of the various Leinster football championships. counties are reduced to giving them a decent game being a perceived success.
People will start voting with their feet and stop going to games, there will be less glamour attached to representing your county resulting in more attrition of good players to other sports.
This might not be part of the general football crisis but it is a contributor.0 -
In addition to the above points, Leinster football is in rag order. What is it after yesterday 8 out of 11 in divisions 3 and 4?
Leinster football is completely uneven no matter what criteria you look at. Dublin are so far in front there is a real danger of other counties essentially giving up.
Dublin have a bigger population than the rest of the province combined.
Dublin have a higher level of funding than the rest of the country combined according to this article:
http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/gaelic-games/dublin-claiming-the-bulk-of-gaa-s-development-funds-1.2091641
It is looking like we are going into another year of complete Dublin domination of the various Leinster football championships. counties are reduced to giving them a decent game being a perceived success.
People will start voting with their feet and stop going to games, there will be less glamour attached to representing your county resulting in more attrition of good players to other sports.
This might not be part of the general football crisis but it is a contributor.
Leinster football has never really been in great order though.Although it's at an all time low now and is further emphasised by Dublin being so good now.
Kildare's record in the province for the size of the county in embarrassing.
Offaly have had 2 periods of success (60-82) and 97-2006 and apart from that have been fairly un-competitive for the remainder of the GAA's history.
And Meath have been fairly competitive for a long period but are going through a downward spell in the last 10 years or so.
The rest of the counties in Leinster have never been much good.
1 all ireland in the last 70 years outside of Offaly, Meath and Dublin and Offaly are probably never going to win an all ireland in the next 70 years either
In truth none of provinces are actually very competitive and only have a degree of competitiveness when the overall standard in the province is low like Leinster was in the mid 00's.
If we had a proper all ireland championship and even if the All Ireland was split into divisions like it is in hurling the championship would be much better and more competitive as the best teams wouldn't be kept apart from each other.0 -
Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
In truth none of provinces are actually very competitive
Wrong.
6 counties out of 9 have a realistic chance of winning Ulster this year
2 in Munster, maybe 3 in Connacht and 1 in Leinster0 -
Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »If we had a proper all ireland championship and even if the All Ireland was split into divisions like it is in hurling the championship would be much better and more competitive as the best teams wouldn't be kept apart from each other.
Interesting how the integrity and sanctity of the provincial championships don't seem to matter much in the hurling championships when placed against having competitive games.
Is it any wonder the average attendance at a hurling championship game is 25k compared to 15k in the football championship.0 -
jossys_giants wrote: »Wrong.
6 counties out of 9 have a realistic chance of winning Ulster this year
2 in Munster, maybe 3 in Connacht and 1 in Leinster
The provinces though are rarely very competitive when the standard is high in the province.
The 2 in Munster are the same 2 Every year.
The 3 in Connacht are the traditional 3 and it is only competitive now because Mayo look to have slipped a bit. If Mayo were at 2012,2013 levels now I doubt Galway or Roscommon would cope with them.
Ulster is somewhat competitive because most of the teams play the blanket defence and it gives teams a chance but only Donegal and maybe Monaghan (on a really good day and a lot of luck) would come close to challenging for the all ireland currently.
We have a situation where the top 8 or 10 counties are spread fairly evenly across the country but they will not get to meet and thus have high quality competitive matches until the quarter finals so the first 3 months of the championship is largely a bore fest with teams of uneven ability playing each other.
I've always been amazed why people oppose divisionalising our championship yet every single county championship in Ireland is played in various different divisions.
What is so sacred about the inter county football that common sense can't be used.
Our competition structures are severely holding back the game as we get a high proportion of matches in the championship where good teams are playing against bad teams and as a result the bad teams only way of competing is using the blanket defence. This results in the blanket defence being used in the league a lot as teams have to practice it before it is used in the championship.If we had competition structures where only teams of roughly similar ability played against each other the blanket defence wouldn't be as necessary as it is for a lot of teams and the game would be much better for it.0 -
HighKing33 wrote: »I'm really worried by this proposition. You can't make tactics illegal, coaches have a right to express themselves as much as players. We could end up with a game that looks like dodgeball.
The changes the FDC proposed in the nineties are still more relevant than ever. They took a serious look at the game and recommended a number of tweaks - most importantly playing 13-a-side at senior intercounty.
It's already been tried and tested in numerous u21 championships, not to mention overseas games and it provides a faster, more attacking game with more one-on-ones and more scores. You're not telling players where they have to stand on a pitch, where they can and can't run - that's not football.
Sure, you could make the argument about it being a bit "artificial" but you could say the same about alot of rules in field sports eg the offside rule. Any player can go anywhere he wants just some 4 have to remain in attacking half.
Re 13 a side I really dont think this would work- make the fitness arms race even more and makd teams more wary of kicking away possession, hence more handpassing.0 -
Sure, you could make the argument about it being a bit "artificial" but you could say the same about alot of rules in field sports eg the offside rule. Any player can go anywhere he wants just some 4 have to remain in attacking half.
Re 13 a side I really dont think this would work- make the fitness arms race even more and makd teams more wary of kicking away possession, hence more handpassing.
In practice it works the opposite way - a bunch of kids from a school in Letterkenny entered the young scientists competition with a project analysing 13-a-side football compared to 15-a-side. There were more kickpasses in the 13-a-side format, also more scores and more entertainment value.
The logic is simple really, more space between the lines makes the kick-pass the way to go. Telling players exactly where they can and can't stand on the field of play is very restrictive, a player should be able to run where he wants to.0 -
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HighKing33 wrote: »In practice it works the opposite way - a bunch of kids from a school in Letterkenny entered the young scientists competition with a project analysing 13-a-side football compared to 15-a-side. There were more kickpasses in the 13-a-side format, also more scores and more entertainment value.
The logic is simple really, more space between the lines makes the kick-pass the way to go. Telling players exactly where they can and can't stand on the field of play is very restrictive, a player should be able to run where he wants to.
I'd be all for a 13-a-side game. I think that it should at least be tested in the league.
When you think that the mark has been recently given a go in the league it would not be that radical to reduce the numbers on a team by 2.
The mark and other rules take away from the expressive nature of gaelic football whereas I feel that 13-a-side would enhance it.0 -
I watched alot of 13 a side with players of a good standard and I much preferred it to 15 a side.WesternZulu wrote: »I'd be all for a 13-a-side game. I think that it should at least be tested in the league.
When you think that the mark has been recently given a go in the league it would not be that radical to reduce the numbers on a team by 2.
The mark and other rules take away from the expressive nature of gaelic football whereas I feel that 13-a-side would enhance it.
13 a side will result in weaker counties being more competitive. They dont have the player pool to be able to fill out a 26 man squad for 15 a side football.
Every team even Dublin are heavily reliant on a few key players. In weaker counties it suits better if those few key men represent a higher proportion of your outfield players.0 -
13 a side has a lot of potential upsides, but I think it's a bit of a dramatic step at this stage.0
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13 a side has a lot of potential upsides, but I think it's a bit of a dramatic step at this stage.
I don't think it;'s that drastic a step It is by far the easiest rule change to implement and the only potential negative to it is that some coahes would use it as an excuse to run the sh1te out of players in training (however I think at intercounty level it's almost impossible for teams to do more training).
It would reward footpassing which the current game doesn't in my opinion as it will leave more space on the field for the ball to be kickied into.
Aslo I always felt that after a man was sent off games tended to get better because of the extra space on the field.
I don't think it is that drastic a step it's not as if the playing numbers are set in stone and Gaelic Football has to be a 15 a side game.Up to u-12 level I played 13 a side football and the game was 21 and then 17 a side in the early years of the association.0 -
Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »I don't think it;'s that drastic a step It is by far the easiest rule change to implement and the only potential negative to it is that some coahes would use it as an excuse to run the sh1te out of players in training (however I think at intercounty level it's almost impossible for teams to do more training).
It would reward footpassing which the current game doesn't in my opinion as it will leave more space on the field for the ball to be kickied into.
Aslo I always felt that after a man was sent off games tended to get better because of the extra space on the field.
I don't think it is that drastic a step it's not as if the playing numbers are set in stone and Gaelic Football has to be a 15 a side game.Up to u-12 level I played 13 a side football and the game was 21 and then 17 a side in the early years of the association.
I agree, look at 7's rugby and how dynamic that game is with the space available when compared to its parent code. Rugby would benefit from dropping two players from its code and so would we. People want to see attacking and scores and to achieve that people need space. I could see 13 aside pushing us back towards a man on man situation.0 -
I agree that 13 a side would be the least drastic change that might change the game for 'the better'.0
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HighKing33 wrote: »In practice it works the opposite way - a bunch of kids from a school in Letterkenny entered the young scientists competition with a project analysing 13-a-side football compared to 15-a-side. There were more kickpasses in the 13-a-side format, also more scores and more entertainment value.
The logic is simple really, more space between the lines makes the kick-pass the way to go. Telling players exactly where they can and can't stand on the field of play is very restrictive, a player should be able to run where he wants to.
Hmmm. Dont know how much value that study is in predicting what would happen in senior intercounty championship.
Ive already addressed your last point which you ve repeated for some reason.0 -
Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »
Ulster is somewhat competitive because most of the teams play the blanket defence and it gives teams a chance but only Donegal and maybe Monaghan (on a really good day and a lot of luck) would come close to challenging for the all ireland currently.
There is so much wrong with that statement it's hard to know where to start but for starters.
Ulster football has been very competitive for the last 30 years long before Pat Spillane converted the masses to "blanket defences"
5 of the 9 Ulster counties have won at least 1 All-Ireland in the last 23 years mostly before "blanket defences"
Down, playing open football came from nowhere to appear in All-Ireland in 2010.
All of the Ulster counties bar one have made it to the quarter finals since the backdoor was introduced.
In my opinion 7 of the Ulster counties could produce an All-Ireland winning team within 5 years given the right conditions.
The amount of sweeping generalisations and lack of knowledge about Ulster football is breathtaking.0 -
Those suggesting 13 a side definitely never played a game on any sort of county standard pitch...or in North America where 13 a side is regular (or was in my day anyway!)
It would only lead to increased endurance and conditioning demands being placed on players, when in reality there is no need for it. There is ALWAYS space available on a Gaelic football field, even space inside the attacking 45. Teams not recycling the ball smartly out of blind alleys or trying to run through a wall of players in the D, or kicking stupid balls into the "blanket" zone are going to get found out, yeah. But teams who vary their game and spread the play quick enough along with having good long range kickers will be able to overcome any kind of defence.
The most defensive team to EVER win an All Ireland was proabably Donegal in 2012, right? In the 14 final, semi-final and final, they conceded the following:
13 points - to a Kerry team that played horribly apart from 15 minutes.
14 points - to a Cork team that had only 1 forward in any kind of form.
13 points - to a Mayo team with 1 top class forward at most.
Look at what Mayo did to them in 2013 when they just pushed up on them. Look what a relatively inexperienced Kerry team did to them last year, scoring 15 points and kicking a massive amount of wides also.
No need for most of the rule changes being suggested and hard to believe this all comes from a league game played in a monsoon in March!0 -
ciarriaithuaidh wrote: »Those suggesting 13 a side definitely never played a game on any sort of county standard pitch...or in North America where 13 a side is regular (or was in my day anyway!)
It would only lead to increased endurance and conditioning demands being placed on players, when in reality there is no need for it. There is ALWAYS space available on a Gaelic football field, even space inside the attacking 45. Teams not recycling the ball smartly out of blind alleys or trying to run through a wall of players in the D, or kicking stupid balls into the "blanket" zone are going to get found out, yeah. But teams who vary their game and spread the play quick enough along with having good long range kickers will be able to overcome any kind of defence.
The most defensive team to EVER win an All Ireland was proabably Donegal in 2012, right? In the 14 final, semi-final and final, they conceded the following:
13 points - to a Kerry team that played horribly apart from 15 minutes.
14 points - to a Cork team that had only 1 forward in any kind of form.
13 points - to a Mayo team with 1 top class forward at most.
Look at what Mayo did to them in 2013 when they just pushed up on them. Look what a relatively inexperienced Kerry team did to them last year, scoring 15 points and kicking a massive amount of wides also.
No need for most of the rule changes being suggested and hard to believe this all comes from a league game played in a monsoon in March!
How can you cite the Donegal team of 2012 as the most defensive of all time then quote scores from 2014?
And what pray tell is an intercounty standard pitch, theres a far cry between Croke Park and Aughrim or Pearse stadium. I know a ton of club pitches bigger and better quality than most county grounds.
No amount of conditioning will cover the space in a 13 a side game even if the defence falls deep so teams will be forced to move the ball quicker and over longer distances as running it consistently won't be an option0 -
There is so much wrong with that statement it's hard to know where to start but for starters.
Ulster football has been very competitive for the last 30 years long before Pat Spillane converted the masses to "blanket defences"
5 of the 9 Ulster counties have won at least 1 All-Ireland in the last 23 years mostly before "blanket defences"
Down, playing open football came from nowhere to appear in All-Ireland in 2010.
All of the Ulster counties bar one have made it to the quarter finals since the backdoor was introduced.
In my opinion 7 of the Ulster counties could produce an All-Ireland winning team within 5 years given the right conditions.
The amount of sweeping generalisations and lack of knowledge about Ulster football is breathtaking.
Since 2000 there have been 4 winners of Ulster.
Since 2000 there have been 5 winners of Leinster.
Kildare were the width of a crossbar away from beating Down in 2010 .
Ulster is more competitive now than the other provinces but a large part of that is due to the generally defensive nature of the games in Ulster and before you say that they aren't defensive the majority of games In the Ulster championship I have watched in the 5 or 6 years have been defensive dog fights with very little open play.
My opinions have nothing to do with Pat Spillane, I absolutely despise him as a pundit but the Ulster championship since I've been watching football has always been a lot more dogged than the other provinces.
It's very doubtful 6 or 7 teams from Ulster would get close to winning the all ireland in the next few years.There are barely that many teams capable of challenging throughout Ireland in a period of time like that never mind in one province.
Tyrone have been going nowhere since 2008.
Cavan don't look to really be pushing on from their relative success at underage level and those under 21 teams didn't seem to have really top class individual players to suggest it would transfer to senior level.
Derry usually only play well in the league and flop when it comes to the championship.
Down haven't really done much since 2010 (this year being the exception) and haven't had much at underage level for a long time.
Monaghan and Donegal look to be making strides in recent years and they'd be the only teams I'd fancy to do anything.0 -
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How can you cite the Donegal team of 2012 as the most defensive of all time then quote scores from 2014?
And what pray tell is an intercounty standard pitch, theres a far cry between Croke Park and Aughrim or Pearse stadium. I know a ton of club pitches bigger and better quality than most county grounds.
No amount of conditioning will cover the space in a 13 a side game even if the defence falls deep so teams will be forced to move the ball quicker and over longer distances as running it consistently won't be an option
Are you saying there was a more defensive team than Donegal 2012 that has won an All Ireland?..Who?
For the record I have no problem with that Donegal victory..It was fairly admirable actually, coming from the low of 2010 to being champions in just 2 years.
I quoted the scores Donegal conceded in their last 3 games of 2012 in case you were confused.
"County standard" pitch was possibly the wrong phrase, but there aren't too many pitches that are identical size to Croke Park, Fitzgerald stadium etc..
As for your point that teams will be forced to kick the ball more..No they won't. More space, means the fitter teams will have more space to play one-two's and rely on their endurance rather than risk kicking the ball. You also seem to forget that the job of an inter-county corner back (tough enough marking a Brogan, O'Donoghue or Colm O'Neill as it is) will becoming almost impossible in such a scenario. Young fellas watching will have zero meas in becoming a defender. Teams will attempt to counteract this obvious weakness by double marking or playing a blanket defence...and then your back to square one.
There is very little wrong with Gaelic Football right now. Few inconsistencies in refereeing. We could have done with the 30m penalty for delaying a free or dissent being brought in to stop that stuff..apart from that, am I alone in wanting the game we love left alone? Fairly sick of most of the "comment" and analysis from armchair pundits recently.0 -
davegrohl48 wrote: »I watched alot of 13 a side with players of a good standard and I much preferred it to 15 a side.
13 a side will result in weaker counties being more competitive. They dont have the player pool to be able to fill out a 26 man squad for 15 a side football.
Every team even Dublin are heavily reliant on a few key players. In weaker counties it suits better if those few key men represent a higher proportion of your outfield players.
If Leitrim could just line out with 13 they'd be a shoe in for the all Ireland.0 -
Just play football the way the Tipperary under 21s played against Cork in the under 21 Munster Final the other night and the game is fine.
Totally opposed to any team being less than 15 players as the squad puts in a great effort and if they think they will not get a reasonable chance of a starting place more and more of them will be attracted to Rugby.
On a predictive note Dublin, Cork and Kerry will dominate this years championship as they are already well on the way of showing how to undermine the blanket defence and as the season progresses they will become more expert at it, no harm that the game throws up a challenge from time to time, some counties will thrive on how to handle it, while other counties will fall by the wayside.The Forum on Spirituality has been closed for years. Please bring it back, there are lots of Spiritual people in Ireland and elsewhere.
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Just play football the way the Tipperary under 21s played against Cork in the under 21 Munster Final the other night and the game is fine.
Totally opposed to any team being less than 15 players as the squad puts in a great effort and if they think they will not get a reasonable chance of a starting place more and more of them will be attracted to Rugby.
On a predictive note Dublin, Cork and Kerry will dominate this years championship as they are already well on the way of showing how to undermine the blanket defence and as the season progresses they will become more expert at it, no harm that the game throws up a challenge from time to time, some counties will thrive on how to handle it, while other counties will fall by the wayside.
But there is no incentive to play in an attacking manner currently at senior level that is why there is an issue.
u-21 football is miles away from senior and is played a fairly naive manner which is great to watch but not a reflection on the game at the highest level.0 -
Hmmm. Dont know how much value that study is in predicting what would happen in senior intercounty championship.
Ive already addressed your last point which you ve repeated for some reason.
Well, the young scientists' project was based on an analysis of senior club football so surely there is some relevance there. But, crucially, the last serious appraisal of the rules of the game was overseen by the FDC during the nineties and they strongly recommended formatting the game as a 13-a-side field game.0 -
I don't think the problem is so much the excessive hand passing, but the speed of the build up of the attack which leads to teams being able to mass a blanket defense, and thus excessive hand passing to counteract it. I think if some rules were tweaked to allow a faster build up of attack, we might see less of the hand pass.
Maybe something like allowing a direct pick off the ground, allowing players to bounce the ball twice before they have to tap it, and allow an extra two steps before you have to bounce or tap the ball allowing lads to run further. That should help in speeding up the game a slight bit.
I would like to see those rule changes tried in a pre season competition to see if they work, if they don't then fair enough. It's the pedantic build up and safety first nature of football that's the problem, not the skills, so counteract the slowness by introducing rules to allow faster movement of the ball and allow players more scope for getting forward with the ball at speed.0 -
Not what I said. But Derry might be a lot closer than currently given their forwards selection.Nidgeweasel wrote: »If Leitrim could just line out with 13 they'd be a shoe in for the all Ireland.0 -
Todays Cork v Donegal match so far shows why 13 a side would work .
Both teams have a lot of men in defence yet it's been very high scoring match so far as although the defences are crowded the game is only being played a reasonable bit off championship pace.As a result the players have a little more space and time on the ball.
You get a 13 a side game at full intensity and there would probably be a similar effect and games in general would be looser with more entertaining football being played.0 -
Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »Todays Cork v Donegal match so far shows why 13 a side would work .
Both teams have a lot of men in defence yet it's been very high scoring match so far as although the defences are crowded the game is only being played a reasonable bit off championship pace.As a result the players have a little more space and time on the ball.
You get a 13 a side game at full intensity and there would probably be a similar effect and games in general would be looser with more entertaining football being played.
If you want to go down that road I could counter by saying that Dublin v Monaghan showed why 15 v 15 isn't a problem. Both teams playing defensively, yet there were 33 scores, some excellent pacey football and some great performances by forwards. Most players didn't play the ball into the blanket, but found the space and used it.
The second game had an intensity that was much closer to championship level aswell. However, in either case, league games are no basis for any argument on drastic changes to the game. Championship football is what it's all about and if last years championship is matched or even improved upon this year, then maybe those looking for crazy changes to rules will be quietened somewhat..here's hoping!0 -
Dirty Dingus McGee wrote: »If It favours the attacking team I don't really have a problem with players taking the ball a couple of yards closer to the goal to take a free.It favours attacking teams which is what most people want and it should provide an extra incentive not to foul if free taker make free's easier for themselves.
It's a very minor breaking of the rules and anyway referees and linesmen can easily spot it and tell the free taker to bring the ball back,so it's a fairly easy thing to deal with a minor issue within the game(I don't think it even is an issue for the majority of people) so I don't think the GAA should be focusing on fixing things that aren't really a problem.
Sorry but you need to be pulled up on this awful logic. While it maybe a minor issue, it is still very much an issue and a clear one at that. Your attitude is the one I dislike most about the GAA - the sort of half-arsed, unprofessional attitude towards rules and their importance.
The fact that the linesmen and refs can spot this issue easily is the whole reason why it's then so annoying, i.e. that they choose not to do anything about it. There are a number of these little issues that, if they wanted, the GAA could sort out in the morning but they are too conservative to do so.0 -
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