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Road deaths on the rise

13

Comments

  • #102
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,561 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    mydiscworld wrote: »
    Number of children killed on Irish roads in 2014 already twice that of 2013

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/number-of-children-killed-on-irish-roads-in-2014-already-twice-that-of-2013-30541375.html

    I heard about this initiative on the radio. Stating that parents should do more to ensure their kids are educated in road safety etc.

    Sounds like victim blaming to me :rolleyes:


  • #103
    kippy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,793 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    A few things are happening I would guess.
    1. We've had a busier and better summer than in the past few years (from some of the reports I have read). More tourists have come here and more people are holidaying at home = more cars on the road.
    2. Employment is allegedly increasing. People are using cars more as a result or buying cars to get to work = more cars on the road.
    3. Lack of investment in further motorway implementation and road improvements in general. Already mentioned here but the motorways have been one of the biggest reasons for increased safety on the roads, none built in a while and seemingly stuttering implemention of M18/17 as well as others.

    Mostly, more cars on the roads.


  • #104
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    kippy wrote: »
    Mostly, more cars on the roads.


    The evidence is that a 10% reduction in traffic volume could reduce fatalities by 6.5%. By way of contrast, the same level of decrease in average speed would have a fatality reduction effect nearly four times greater.

    If fatalities are increasing now as a result of (easy-credit-fuelled) new car sales, then why did we experience the opposite during the Celtic Bubble years?

    Between 2001 and 2011 Ireland's population increased by 19%, motor vehicle registrations increased by 37%, and the number of full/provisional driving licence holders increased by 31%. In the same period the number of fatalities decreased by 55%. Source: http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Crash%20Stats/2011_Road_Collision_Fact_Book.pdf

    The construction of safer road types during the boom (motorways being a prime example) is presumably a factor. But has the road environment changed so much over the last few years that it has led to an increase in fatalities? What evidence is there to support that theory?


  • #105
    kippy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,793 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    The evidence is that a 10% reduction in traffic volume could reduce fatalities by 10%. By way of contrast, the same level of decrease in average speed would have a fatality reduction effect nearly four times greater.

    If fatalities are increasing now as a result of (easy-credit-fuelled) new car sales, then why did we experience the opposite during the Celtic Bubble years?

    Between 2001 and 2011 Ireland's population increased by 19%, motor vehicle registrations increased by 37%, and the number of full/provisional driving licence holders increased by 31%. In the same period the number of fatalities decreased by 55%. Source: http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Crash%20Stats/2011_Road_Collision_Fact_Book.pdf

    The construction of safer road types during the boom (motorways being a prime example) is presumably a factor. But has the road environment changed so much over the last few years that it has led to an increase in fatalities? What evidence is there to support that theory?

    Fair enough.
    More cars does not equal more accidents based on those stats.
    What about less enforcement?


  • #106
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Correction: the evidence is that a 10% reduction in traffic volume could reduce fatalities by 6.5%.

    I think reduced enforcement (including inefficient use of existing resources) is a factor. But how to confirm that?

    Perhaps also there is an element of complacency. We were doing well for a long time, and then took our collective eye off the ball?


  • #107
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 31,118 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    I would put a lot of the previous reduction in road deaths despite an increase in traffic , simply down to the fact that much of this extra traffic is on newer safer roads. Plus the fact that before 2000 there were a lot of old wrecks on the roads that were removed after the scrappage scheme.
    It should also be noted that 2011 was the "bottom" of the depression.


  • #108
    AugustusMinimus
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,561 ✭✭✭AugustusMinimus


    IMO, the rise in deaths over the past 2 years is statistically uninteresting and is most likely not actually down to any factor.

    It will take maybe another 2 or 3 years of data to see if this is an actual trend or simply a statistical variance.


  • #109
    Hidden Cyclone
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 47 ✭Hidden Cyclone


    Can volumes be tracked accurately? I can think of a few proxies (e.g. litres of fuel sold, tolls collected) but can it be tracked and is any attempt made to?


  • #110
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,493 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Hidden Cyclone wrote: »
    Can volumes be tracked accurately? I can think of a few proxies (e.g. litres of fuel sold, tolls collected) but can it be tracked and is any attempt made to?

    There are roadside traffic counters and aggregated data from the NCT. Using litres of fuel sold suffers from fuel exports (fuel is cheaper in Ireland than the UK) and variable mileage between vehicles and driving styles.


  • #111
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,588 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Hidden Cyclone wrote: »
    Can volumes be tracked accurately? I can think of a few proxies (e.g. litres of fuel sold, tolls collected) but can it be tracked and is any attempt made to?

    Forgot to reply when I saw this initially (on a phone and couldn't paste a link). As Victor has since mentioned:

    The NRA has a large network of traffic counters. They are't 100% accurate but they're more than accurate enough.

    http://www.nra.ie/network-monitoring-and-management/traffic-data/

    Also gives an [estimated, from axle count detection and other factors] breakdown between cars and HGVs; a road with a higher % of HGV traffic can be a factor in more pedestrian and cyclist deaths/injuries.


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  • #112
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,493 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    antoobrien wrote: »
    road_high wrote: »
    One of the main drivers of the drop in road deaths has been the bypassing of old N roads like the N8 and N9 which were lethal for head on collisions and junction crashes at high speed.

    Indeed, just looking collision map for 2005 - 2011 there were 17 fatal collisions along the old 2 lane N6 (now R446) route. There were 3 on the corresponding dc/motorway.

    The table below is a collation of the years and sections of road where the accidents occurred, along with the approximate opening date of the relevant section of 4 lane Rd.

    Section | 2 Lane | 4 Lane | 4 Lane Open
    KK-TYP | 2005 | | Dec 06
    KK-TYP | 2005 | | Dec 06
    TYP-KB | 2006 | | May 07
    TYP-KB | 2005 | | May 07
    TYP-KB | | 2007 | May 07
    TYP-KB | 2008 | | May 07
    KB-A | 2007 | | Jul 08
    KB-A | 2007 | | Jul 08
    KB-A | | 2011 | Jul 08
    KB-A | 2006 | | Jul 08
    A-B | | 2010 | Jul 09
    A-B | 2011 | | Jul 09
    A-B | 2010 | | Jul 09
    B-G | 2008 | | Dec 09
    B-G | 2008 | | Dec 09
    B-G | 2008 | | Dec 09
    B-G | 2008 | | Dec 09
    B-G | 2006 | | Dec 09
    B-G | 2005 | | Dec 09
    B-G | 2005 | | Dec 09
    | 17 | 3 |

    Apologies for dragging up an old post, but how many casualties where there on the combined N6 / M6 / R446 corridor?


  • #113
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Victor wrote: »
    Apologies for dragging up an old post, but how many casualties where there on the combined N6 / M6 / R446 corridor?

    I just counted the number of accidents, but it is higher than the figure in the table (I remember at least one of the accidents from 2005 being a 2/3 person crash).


  • #114
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,493 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Sorry. What I mean is that if you are comparing the before and after, you need to include 'local' casualties on the R446 in the after total.


  • #115
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Victor wrote: »
    Sorry. What I mean is that if you are comparing the before and after, you need to include 'local' casualties on the R446 in the after total.

    Not sure what you mean by "local" casualties, but I've counted all accidents that have been marked as occurring on the former N6. At the time of that post, the figures were for 2005-2011, the map has since been updated for 2012 - there were 20 counted before, 23 now.

    In some cases there have been no recorded accidents after the road opened, in one case several.

    Summary:
    Road | Collisions | Fatalities | Serious | Minor
    N6 | 17 | 22 | 8 | 19
    R446 | 3 | 3 | 0 | 0
    M6 |3 | 4 | 0 |0



    Detailed:
    Section | Road | Year | Type | Fatal | Serious | Minor | M/Way Open
    KK-TYP | N6 | 2005 | Right Turn | 1 | 0 | 1 | Dec 06
    KK-TYP | N6 | 2005 | Head on | 1 | 0 | 0 | Dec 06
    TYP-KB | N6 | 2006 | Head on | 1 | 0 | 0 | May 07
    TYP-KB | N6 | 2005 | Pedestrian | 1 | 0 | 0 | May 07
    TYP-KB | M6 | 2007 | Single Vehicle | 1 | 0 | 0 | May 07
    TYP-KB | N6 | 2005 | Pedestrian | 1 | 0 | 0 | May 07
    TYP-KB | N6 | 2008 | Motorcyle | 1 | 0 | 1 | Jul 08
    KB-A | N6 | 2007 | Pedestrian | 1 | 0 | 0 | Jul 08
    KB-A | N6 | 2006 | Head on | 1 | 2 | 0 | Jul 08
    KB-A | M6 | 2011 | Head on | 2 | 0 | 0 | Jul 08
    KB-A | N6 | 2006 | Head on | 2 | 0 | 1 | Jul 09
    A-B | R446 | 2011 | Rear End | 1 | 0 | 0 | Jul 09
    A-B | M6 | 2010 | Pedestrian | 1 | 0 | 0 | Jul 09
    A-B | N6 | 2008 | Head on | 2 | 1 | 4 | Jul 09
    A-B | R446 | 2011 | Pedestrian | 1 | 0 | 0 | Dec 09
    A-B | R446 | 2010 | Pedestrian | 1 | 0 | 0 | Dec 09
    B-G | N6 | 2008 | Pedestrian | 1 | 0 | 0 | Dec 09
    B-G | N6 | 2009 | Head on | 1 | 0 | 8 | Dec 09
    B-G | N6 | 2009 | Head on | 2 | 0 | 3 | Dec 09
    B-G | N6 | 2008 | Single Vehicle | 2 | 3 | 0 | Dec 09
    B-G | N6 | 2006 | Head on | 1 | 2 | 0 | Dec 09
    B-G | N6 | 2005 | Head on | 2 | 0 | 0 | Dec 09
    B-G | N6 | 2005 | Head on | 1 | 0 | 1 | Dec 09


  • #116
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,493 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    antoobrien wrote: »
    Not sure what you mean by "local" casualties
    Casualties on local journeys, where the road user would be unlikely to use the motorway.


  • #117
    antoobrien
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,106 ✭✭✭antoobrien


    Victor wrote: »
    Casualties on local journeys, where the road user would be unlikely to use the motorway.

    Don't see your problem/objection, the R446 figures are there (such as they are).


  • #118
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    If fatalities are increasing now as a result of (easy-credit-fuelled) new car sales, then why did we experience the opposite during the Celtic Bubble years?

    Between 2001 and 2011 Ireland's population increased by 19%, motor vehicle registrations increased by 37%, and the number of full/provisional driving licence holders increased by 31%. In the same period the number of fatalities decreased by 55%. Source: http://www.rsa.ie/Documents/Road%20Safety/Crash%20Stats/2011_Road_Collision_Fact_Book.pdf


    Looks like AGS are buying into the theory that an improving economy means more road deaths:
    The economy emerging from recession is a major reason for the increase in road deaths as there is more traffic on the roads, according to Chief Supt Reid.

    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/garda%C3%AD-identify-dublin-s-top-10-speeding-blackspots-1.1951025


  • #119
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,493 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    Iwannahurl wrote: »
    If fatalities are increasing now as a result of (easy-credit-fuelled) new car sales, then why did we experience the opposite during the Celtic Bubble years?
    It might not be car sales, but fuel affordability. While fuel prices dropped in 2008, they rose again very quickly, even though demand dropped (certainly in Ireland, probably in most of Europe).

    If someone is concerned about their fuel costs, they are going to drive more slowly and conservatively.


  • #120
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    So if we were to test that hypothesis, would the RSA's annual surveys of free speed be of any use?


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  • #121
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    I think we need to concentrate on a few areas:

    Aggressive and dangerous driving across the board. Things like dangerous blind overtaking on single carriageways, tailgating etc

    Speed but focusing on dangerous parts of single carriageways.

    Bikes and pedestrians : they need to start actually fining people who have no lights on bikes, break traffic lights etc and also pedestrians walking on roads without reflective gear at night.

    The other issue is that the traffic corps needs to be more visible. You hardly ever see them outside of key locations.


  • #122
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    need to start actually fining ... pedestrians walking on roads without reflective gear at night.

    The other issue is that the traffic corps needs to be more visible. You hardly ever see them outside of key locations.


    Do you mean literally walking on the road? If so, there may other, much more important factors: e.g. no footpath provided (fine the officials in the relevant roads authority?), footpath obstructed by illegally parked vehicles (fine the owner/driver), pedestrian is intoxicated (fine the publican for giving them too much alcohol?).

    In any case, there is no law requiring the wearing of hi-vis. Finland has such a law, and there is about a 20% compliance rate.

    As for the Traffic Corps, they are highly conspicuous by their absence or even apathy in certain situations. Straight away I can think of two events I attended where several TC Gardai were present, but where they didn't lift a finger to enforce any traffic or parking regulations. Hi-vis, including the TC's own gear, made not an iota of difference.


  • #123
    SpaceTime
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,088 ✭✭✭SpaceTime


    Realistically footpaths can't be provided on rural roads at any kind of reasonable cost and the setup is similar elsewhere in Europe.

    I think if you're walking along a dark rural road at night without reflectors you're a total idiot tbh.


  • #124
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    There may be idiocy involved.

    However, according to the RSA over 80% of road deaths and injuries occur in built-up areas, and two thirds of pedestrians killed on the roads have been consuming alcohol.

    How would fining pedestrians for not wearing hi-vis alter that situation to any significant degree?


  • #125
    Victor
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78,493 ✭✭✭✭Victor


    SpaceTime wrote: »
    Realistically footpaths can't be provided on rural roads at any kind of reasonable cost and the setup is similar elsewhere in Europe.
    Then stop building houses in rural areas - put them in villages.

    There are lots of houses in rural areas where they could have provided foot paths, but didn't.


  • #126
    mydiscworld
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 800 ✭✭✭mydiscworld


    ROAD DEATHS RISE FOR SECOND CONSECUTIVE YEAR

    http://www.garda.ie/Controller.aspx?Page=14571
    A total of 196* people have lost their lives in 2014, compared to 190 in 2013, a 3% rise.

    However, it represents a 21% increase when compared to the 162
    road deaths that occurred in 2012, the safest year on Irish roads.


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  • #127
    Leonard Hofstadter
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,541 ✭✭✭Leonard Hofstadter


    "Amazing" how ever since the scameras, sorry I mean speed cameras have been introduced, that fatalities have gone UP after many, many years of the fatalities going down.

    Co-incidence? I think not! Will we hear anyone in the Government (or FF who introduced the pesky money making scams) admit they got it wrong? Will we hear or see anyone in the media challenge the Government or the RSA about their misleading claims that speed cameras save lives? Will we what! Too much money to be made, besides, in the eyes of the speed camera lobby, either way it's justification for more of the damn things. And of course, don't forget the 'regression to the mean' argument. Even if this is true, then all this proves is that at best, they've made no difference whatsoever.

    A reduction in fatalities? Oh, that must be because of the speed cameras because 'speed cameras save lives', therefore we need more of them! An increase in fatalities? Oh, too many people are driving "too fast" (or whatever BS excuse they can think of), therefore we need more of them! You couldn't make this up.


  • #128
    flazio
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 13,256 ✭✭✭✭flazio


    captainspeed wrote: »
    "Amazing" how ever since the scameras, sorry I mean speed cameras have been introduced, that fatalities have gone UP after many, many years of the fatalities going down.

    Co-incidence? I think not! Will we hear anyone in the Government (or FF who introduced the pesky money making scams) admit they got it wrong? Will we hear or see anyone in the media challenge the Government or the RSA about their misleading claims that speed cameras save lives? Will we what! Too much money to be made, besides, in the eyes of the speed camera lobby, either way it's justification for more of the damn things. And of course, don't forget the 'regression to the mean' argument. Even if this is true, then all this proves is that at best, they've made no difference whatsoever.

    A reduction in fatalities? Oh, that must be because of the speed cameras because 'speed cameras save lives', therefore we need more of them! An increase in fatalities? Oh, too many people are driving "too fast" (or whatever BS excuse they can think of), therefore we need more of them! You couldn't make this up.
    I'd be very interested in your cost effective, non discrimination way in tackling the issue.


  • #129
    Caliden
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,982 ✭✭✭Caliden


    flazio wrote: »
    I'd be very interested in your cost effective, non discrimination way in tackling the issue.

    So it's only worthwhile if it's cost effective?


    Proper enforcement is the only solution and to do that, more Gardai need to be recruited.


  • #130
    veryangryman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,604 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    flazio wrote: »
    I'd be very interested in your cost effective, non discrimination way in tackling the issue.

    More Dual Carriageways is a simple one. Even simple central medians like they use on many major single carriageway roads in Scandanavia would easily reduce deaths which mainly occur due to head-ons.


  • #131
    Tragedy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,056 ✭✭✭Tragedy


    What we need is an actual Road Safety Authority that does something beyond collate statistics given to it, hand out free hi vis jackets, publish the odd and mostly useless TV ad and have Gaybo tell us about speeding.


    Where's the research? Where's the analysis of those statistics? Where's....really, anything of use or worth?

    Why don't we have detailed reports on how, when, where and why road fatalities and serious injuries are happening? Why don't we know how these change year to year? Why don't we know if there has been a correlation between camera vans and a reduction in deaths/accidents involving vehicles travelling over the speed limit? Why aren't there programs and press releases targeting those areas where deaths are increasing? Why can't they predict what areas of dangerous driving will respond best to education and enforcement?

    The RSA is not fit for purpose and to be honest, until we have a real RSA - any talk of increased Gardai to tackle road deaths is pointless. Throwing more darts at random targets will not help.


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  • #132
    D Trent
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,341 ✭✭✭D Trent


    Seems as though this fatal RTC was a head on collision on a single carriageway road that is what, 7 years old ?
    http://m.independent.ie/irish-news/four-people-killed-and-three-seriously-injured-in-road-accident-30888376.html


  • #133
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,588 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    Just under 5 I think. High speed singles are always high risk unfortunately


  • #134
    veryangryman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,604 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    Sadly, a good example of a road that should have the central reservation.

    Are they really that expensive to install?


  • #135
    munchkin_utd
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,907 ✭✭✭munchkin_utd


    veryangryman wrote: »
    Sadly, a good example of a road that should have the central reservation.

    Are they really that expensive to install?
    nope, which is why (IIRC) wide single lane roads with a (useless, and mostly unused) hard shoulder are from now on to be built as a 2+2 with a central median.


  • #136
    loyatemu
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 15,115 ✭✭✭✭loyatemu


    munchkin_utd wrote: »
    nope, which is why (IIRC) wide single lane roads with a (useless, and mostly unused) hard shoulder are from now on to be built as a 2+2 with a central median.

    WSC is inherently dangerous as it encourages overtaking and weaving in and out of the hard shoulders - I hate driving on those roads. But I don't think the NRA have scrapped it as a road type yet.


  • #137
    veryangryman
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,604 ✭✭✭veryangryman


    loyatemu wrote: »
    WSC is inherently dangerous as it encourages overtaking and weaving in and out of the hard shoulders - I hate driving on those roads. But I don't think the NRA have scrapped it as a road type yet.

    If they have, its been recent as the Ballaghadreen bypass ain't too old yet.


  • #138
    L1011
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 69,588 ✭✭✭✭L1011


    veryangryman wrote: »
    If they have, its been recent as the Ballaghadreen bypass ain't too old yet.

    Its not as wide as the old WS2 was. Different spec. However I think the N78 is the same spec.


  • #139
    shedweller
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,029 ✭✭✭shedweller


    Whats the percentage of accidents per road user? It would be nice to see a graph of this over the last few years. I suspect (but may be wrong!) that the increase in accidents is somewhat due to the increase in road users. I see way more vehicles on the roads now compared to 2008-2010 or thereabouts so of course theres going to be more accidents.


  • #140
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,872 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Why do the Gardai not publish the results of all the post-fatality analysis of accidents. They close the road, examine the vehicles, I presume breathalise the drivers, measure and photograph everything.

    Would not an annual report of their findings be of huge benefit to the general public and inform rational debate and cause a general appreciation of what can be done to reduce these terrible waste of lives?

    I feel for the families and their loss.


  • #141
    monument
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators Posts: 14,088 Mod ✭✭✭✭monument


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    Why do the Gardai not publish the results of all the post-fatality analysis of accidents. They close the road, examine the vehicles, I presume breathalise the drivers, measure and photograph everything.

    Would not an annual report of their findings be of huge benefit to the general public and inform rational debate and cause a general appreciation of what can be done to reduce these terrible waste of lives?

    I feel for the families and their loss.

    Mainly because it could impact on court cases.


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  • #142
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,872 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    I appreciate that point, but the report could be annonomised or generalised or summarised to remove that difficulty.

    For example, a table showing how many mechanical faults were full or partial causes; how much speed affected the accident as cause or exacerbating injuries; how many drivers were found over the limit; how much drivers contributed through lack of skill/experience.

    Particular accidents could be examined in detail after the court cases are finalised, again without names. I appreciate that would be historical, but still valuable.

    If it is important, it is important to understand why it is important.


  • #143
    Sheldons Brain
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,394 ✭✭✭Sheldons Brain


    I'm not sure that this recent accident on a modern road tells us a huge amount about the trend in road accidents. Sometimes things happen, although this seems difficult to explain.

    Was there not supposed to be another Euro RAP report at some stage?


  • #144
    BaronVon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭BaronVon


    Sam Russell wrote: »
    I appreciate that point, but the report could be annonomised or generalised or summarised to remove that difficulty.

    For example, a table showing how many mechanical faults were full or partial causes; how much speed affected the accident as cause or exacerbating injuries; how many drivers were found over the limit; how much drivers contributed through lack of skill/experience.

    Particular accidents could be examined in detail after the court cases are finalised, again without names. I appreciate that would be historical, but still valuable.

    If it is important, it is important to understand why it is important.

    After all fatal accidents, this will be done in the Coroner's Court. There's a record of it there, it's just not collated nationallty, which i presume would be the job of the RSA.


  • #145
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,872 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    infacteh wrote: »
    After all fatal accidents, this will be done in the Coroner's Court. There's a record of it there, it's just not collated nationallty, which i presume would be the job of the RSA.

    The coroners court is to determine the cause of death, not the cause of the accident that gave rise to it. Coroners have a very limited number of verdicts they can give.

    What I am looking at is a systematic analysis and collation of all relevant data for all accidents that included a fatality. It is facile to say 'there were [x] extra deaths last year' when what is needed is to categorise the cause of those deaths to see what action needs to be taken by the road authorities, the Gardai, the RSA, and the general public.

    Why is so much action taken when a plane goes down, but not a lot when a few people are killed in a RTA? Maybe there is a lot done but not reported.

    I am not talking about recent tragedies.


  • #146
    mydiscworld
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 800 ✭✭✭mydiscworld


    Sheldons Brain wrote: »
    Was there not supposed to be another Euro RAP report at some stage?

    Yes, see here

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056618782


  • #147
    Iwannahurl
    Closed Accounts Posts: 8,156 ✭✭✭Iwannahurl


    veryangryman wrote: »
    More Dual Carriageways is a simple one. Even simple central medians like they use on many major single carriageway roads in Scandanavia would easily reduce deaths which mainly occur due to head-ons.



    This kind of thing? Ugly but effective I guess. It would be a lot cheaper than conversion to DC or motorway. I wonder whether it has been considered, and what objections might be raised. Perhaps not suited to Ireland's dense road network and ubiquitous ribbon development?


  • #148
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,872 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Looking at the RSA report on the road deaths for 2014 would suggest that the rise in deaths could be accounted for by either the rise in deaths of pedestrians or the rise in deaths of cyclists.

    A lot of pedestrians died while attempting to cross roads. Hi-viz jackets or reflective belts might help here.

    Cyclists do not help their cause by so many of them insisting on ignoring the rules of the road.


  • #149
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35,541 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    what annoys me is that most of the reporting (and official announcements) about this issue shows a complete failure to understand the nature of statistics.

    If fatalities go substantially down one year, chances are they'll increase the next for no apparent reason - regression to the mean

    There's also the issue of small sample size. Ireland is a small country so the overall total will show more variation year on year, just because of the relatively small sample size. For particular road user groups e.g. pedestrian or cyclist fatalities, the sample size is far smaller again so the variation year on year can be 50% or more. This is normal. It doesn't mean anything in itself.

    Long term trends are the only things from which inferences can be usefully drawn, not the statistical noise of year-to-year mostly random variations.

    There's also a great deal of politicking that goes on, e.g. people in rural areas can't (rightly) drive to the pub and have a few pints, so they walk, but now they're being demonised. Just because you had a couple of pints in you walking home doesn't mean you were doing anything dangerous, in any case the motorist has a duty to be able to stop in the distance they can see to be clear at all times. If you are in a vulnerable road user group or ever have a drink, you're ripe for demonisation by the RSA.

    What's particularly annoying for me this year is that motorcycle fatalities are down about 10%, but no mention is being made of this. It's within the normal variation, but when the figure goes up by the same amount it's always mentioned. Again, there is a lot of victim blaming going on here as the most usual cause of motorcycle fatalities in two vehicle accidents is a car pulling out from a minor road in front of a motorcycle, or turning right across an oncoming one.

    Scrap the cap!



  • #150
    BaronVon
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,662 ✭✭✭BaronVon


    Hotblack Desiato wrote: »
    What's particularly annoying for me this year is that motorcycle fatalities are down about 10%, but no mention is being made of this. It's within the normal variation, but when the figure goes up by the same amount it's always mentioned. Again, there is a lot of victim blaming going on here as the most usual cause of motorcycle fatalities in two vehicle accidents is a car pulling out from a minor road in front of a motorcycle, or turning right across an oncoming one.

    With regards motorcycle fatalities, I'd like to know how many riders were unlicensed / uninsured / untrained? In my experience, I would imagine it is relatively high, and I feel those riders being included in the statistics of serious riders does a disservice to proper motorcyclists!


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  • #151
    Sam Russell
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,872 Mod ✭✭✭✭Sam Russell


    Actually, they examine the statistics by age and for motorcyclists and cyclist, training does not appear to be an issue, but the sample size is small.


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