Performance - Related Pay???

#15 · 02-11-2014 10:44pm

smcgiff wrote: »

I think student's improving in ability, moving up in standard tests is not a good test of ability of the teacher. However, a student or group of students going backwards would be something that should be looked at. If student's do show signs of improvement it would be exceptional and most certainly worthy of reward. I would imagine it would be very hard to achieve this, especially with the current classroom sizes.

Thanks for the clarification!

byhookorbycrook · 02-11-2014 11:25pm

I'm thinking particularly of primary where the curriculum is two year cycle, how do you measure how children "improve" without proper tests? And if we are to use tests that are standardized, you will end up with teaching to the test(which is what the Leaving has become). At present standardized tests only exist for Maths, Reading (English) and Irish, how do you envisage measuring progress in the arts, science, SESE and so on?

The process of creating the maths and literacy tests is long and slow and quite expensive, never mind the expense to the school of buying the tests.

A teacher may be exceptional in teaching to these tests (if they did exist)in say music and merely "very good" in all the others, so how do you decide to pay them or not, notionally on performance? The other factor that would worry me is that schools and even teachers might cherry pick pupils (as happens with some secondary schools already) and refuse to accept children with SEN or those whose first language is not English or those children from homes where education is not valued.

evolving_doors · 03-11-2014 12:15am

smcgiff wrote: »

It was mentioned that those professions were not assessed. This thread is the one discussing performance related pay for teachers. And up to now it was proposed that it was not possible to assess teachers, that they were different.

Yes it was I who mentioned that these professions are not assessed for the purposes of performance related pay. And up until now it was proposed by 'some' (myself included) that it was not possible to assess teachers, that they were different (in line with other public services). And beyond 'now' it is being proposed also !...

So if you accept that these other professions (mainly dealing with the pubilc in a public service system) are not assessed in relation to pay related performance then you have to wonder why!!!

Maybe have a think about the word Profession... I know wikipedia is much decried but lets go with it anyway...

"A profession is a vocation founded upon specialized educational training, the purpose of which is to supply objective counsel and service to others, for a direct and definite compensation, wholly apart from expectation of other business gain."
Notice the emboldened part. This is not like a door-to-door salesman who works on commission. You know what you get paid and you do the best in your job. Simple.

smcgiff wrote: »

You know full well the implications for doctors if complaints are upheld. It can mean anything up to being struck off. But, again that post relates back to the belief that it is impossible for teachers to be assessed. Other professions are and so can teachers.

Meh! You could easily say that about teachers being struck off too if complaints are upheld. i.e. It can mean anything up to being struck off....
So what other public service professions are assessed for pay-related-performance?

smcgiff wrote: »

No, I don't think it would need to be 4 times per year, and as discussed subsequently, it would (similar to TP) need to be an external assessor. So, at least all your subsequent worries can be put to rest.

Ok good, we are digging into the topic a bit more and we are finding out that getting the Principal/'Manager' to do the assessing won't work.
As you say 'similar to the TP' then ,sorry, it's going to have to be more than one observation to make a judgement. The TP is usually around 4 observations (depending on how the course is structured with that particular University).

Sooo, we've moved on to 'Oh I don't know, get someone else to do it.. someone from the outside' idea. I'll give you that much though as it is being considered by some in the Dept. (HERE).

Although I can't really see inspectors coming in a few times a year every year to assess every teacher in our school in order to give a pay-rise. And then have them drive on to the next school to do the same, and then of course have the time to pour over the paperwork for appeals and to check up on the required paperwork from teachers that every student is meeting their targets (as per UK model). Do you have any idea how many inspectors would be needed to do this...

All of this to what end... to appease some numpties' notion that the wealthy teachers are creaming it at the trough while the kids aint learning anything....but what about the bad teachers joe.. and even then the baying crowd will be looking for more appeasement...and the 3 months holidays joe, the 3 months holidays. No matter what you do it's never enough for the begrudgers.

Why not just spend the money on increasing the pay to attract a bigger pool of teachers.. or spend the money to decrease the crazy class sizes.

Tl;Dr ..let the inspectors decide on pay related performance!!!

LOL

smcgiff wrote: »

It was the comment about CPD education being less than adequate that showed the lack of faith.

Ya don;t get me wrong, some of the CPD courses I've attended (of my own volition I might add.. no pay rise dangled in front of me) have been good. But once it's rolled out as 'this course will fulfill your CPD requirement' then we know the way it's going to go (well most teachers know the way it''s going to go anyway)..

You may be unfamiliar with the Croke Park hours that have been rolled out in teaching.. I'll stand corrected but most of the teacher experience of the extra hours 'meetings' have been mind-numbing-for-the-sake-of-it-borefests... (Just search 'croke park hours' on this forum). Once the intrinsic motivation for attending CPD is gone then the extrinsic monetary motivation will take over.

smcgiff wrote: »

Re bold comment. Who exactly are the rabble? Parents of children? The posters on here? That comment really does you no credit.

Who are the rabble? Basically i don't mind who likes to comment on education once they are prepared to listen to teachers and accept that their experience has merit. Those who don;t wish to listen and continue on with the same simplified one-liners are rabble.

smcgiff wrote: »

The current Minister for education, the politician is a former teacher, as are quite a lot of politicians as it happens.

Ya.. sure .. back in the 1970's!!! (Like Enda and Jan) "for a brief period" is usually the tagline on their teaching experience. A lot has changed since then (except the pension scheme that they are probably still in!).

smcgiff wrote: »

The whole point about this discussion is that teachers are just like anybody else. SOME will abuse the system. Yes, the majority of teachers are conscientious and do excellent jobs. All the more reason for these to be highlighted. And I've not even mentioned substitutes - okay, I just have :P

The whole point of this discussion is to consider how pay would be linked to 'teacher performance'. So as yet I've yet to see how it could be proposed without hindering the education system and a teacher's day to day job.

smcgiff wrote: »

Is it your assertion that teachers never take duvet days? While the rest of the population does, hence the term is widely understood, teachers couldn't possibly?

I'm saying that 'duvet days' has nothing got to do with pay-related-performance so your point falls down in that regard.
Mainly because you still haven't responded to the refutations about the absurdity of linking 'absenteeism due to illness' to 'performance/pay'.

smcgiff wrote: »

As a trained professional in the education system, do you have any suggestions as to how it can be done.

I'm saying that it can't be done effectively without spending A LOT of money. (as I've outlined already).
I'm also questioning why it should be done?
Who is asking for it to be done?
I am also saying that once you start to do it , it will go down the UK route. Less time for actual teaching and more time needed to justify why you should be paid.

smcgiff wrote: »

Everyone on this thread will be in agreement that the eduction of our children is of paramount importance.

Thanks for pointing that out.

smcgiff wrote: »

We know how important class size is, but does the quality of the teacher matter?

And yes, we all know bad teachers. We've had them ourselves. We've also had great teachers. The best I've known was a lecturer that was head and shoulders over the dinosaurs that weren't fit to lick her boots, but they had tenure. She left totally disillusioned with the farce.

So we're back to the tenure/can't lose their jobs dilemma.. (BTW Lecturing and teaching are different things).
So, back to the drawing board again.... how do you propose to do it in order to weed out the bad teachers and compensate the good ones?

smcgiff wrote: »

1. What Continuous professional education has the teacher undertaken?
2. How many sick days has the teacher taken in the last year.
3. How has their manager assessed their work - the principal in this case. Is this a shocking thought? A lot of other employees are graded by their managers.

BTW I've noticed your above initial suggestions have not held much water as you've given up on those also... care to mention some other ways that performance can be measured... and rewarded accordingly?

smcgiff · 03-11-2014 9:11am

Armelodie wrote: »

BTW I've noticed your above initial suggestions have not held much water as you've given up on these also... care to mention some other ways that performance can be measured... and rewarded accordingly?

Really? How did you possibly come to that conclusion? I stand by all 4 of my original suggestions. If you think any of the attempts to change my mind were persuasive then you've over estimated your power of debate.

But, that's simply an error of judgement. I can forgive that. What I don't have time for is the putting words in my mouth. That's simply... childish.

As for the substantial debate I'd only be going around in circles. And as a Higher Professional I don't have time for that. Oh, look. I can be flippant too.

evolving_doors · 03-11-2014 9:51am

smcgiff wrote: »

Really? How did you possibly come to that conclusion? I stand by all 4 of my original suggestions. If you think any of the attempts to change my mind were persuasive then you've over estimated your power of debate.

But, that's simply an error of judgement. I can forgive that. What I don't have time for is the putting words in my mouth. That's simply... childish.

As for the substantial debate I'd only be going around in circles. And as a Higher Professional I don't have time for that. Oh, look. I can be flippant too.

Yes you can stand by them allright, the same as people can stand by the 'principle' of performance related pay... but you still failed to justify with debate.. let me summarise:

You say that PRP is applicable to any job, but you fail to accept or put forward a method of doing so in any public service profession.

You fail to put forward any opposition to a definition of a profession.

You suggested something about principals doing the deciding, but recanted.

You then suggested inspectors should do it but neglected to 'account' for the massive cost involved.

You mentioned something about factoring in duvet days... whatever that was about.

You talked about factoring in CPD which has merit but neglected to counter my example of tokenism/extrinsic vs' intrinsic motivation/croke park/high levels of cpd undertaken already.

You accept that student grades are not a good measure of deciding PRP.

I think its rather pertinent about public service and PRP if you look at the Irish water remuneration structure... I.e. PRP... now people have replaced the notion of PRP with the dirty word of BONUSES.

"What? Bonuses for doing their bloody job".

'well no actually its to weed out the 'bad' workers and reward the 'good' ones so theyll work better'.

LOL

smcgiff · 03-11-2014 11:08am

Armelodie wrote: »

Yes you can stand by them allright, the same as people can stand by the 'principle' of performance related pay... but you still failed to justify with debate.. let me summarise:

You say that PRP is applicable to any job, but you fail to accept or put forward a method of doing so in any public service profession.

You fail to put forward any opposition to a definition of a profession.

You suggested something about principals doing the deciding, but recanted.

You then suggested inspectors should do it but neglected to 'account' for the massive cost involved.

You mentioned something about factoring in duvet days... whatever that was about.

You talked about factoring in CPD which has merit but neglected to counter my example of tokenism/extrinsic vs' intrinsic motivation/croke park/high levels of cpd undertaken already.

You accept that student grades are not a good measure of deciding PRP.

I think its rather pertinent about public service and PRP if you look at the Irish water remuneration structure... I.e. PRP... now people have replaced the notion of PRP with the dirty word of BONUSES.

"What? Bonuses for doing their bloody job".

'well no actually its to weed out the 'bad' workers and reward the 'good' ones so theyll work better'.

LOL

I'll give you a new word to play with.

ROFL.

I disagree with your conclusions. But, I feel like I'd be rehashing old arguments again to take it further.

Take that as a victory if you like. You probably will.

evolving_doors · 03-11-2014 9:11pm

smcgiff wrote: »

I'll give you a new word to play with.

ROFL.

I disagree with your conclusions. But, I feel like I'd be rehashing old arguments again to take it further.

Take that as a victory if you like. You probably will.

I used ROFL a few posts back.

As regards rehashing old arguments... lets just say theres no point as they have been shown not to hold any merit.

TBH its easy to be against something and give loads of reasons why not (which is my position), but teachers have seen enough 'reform for the sake of soundbites' to be critical.
Also, given the sham of a JCert that is being rammed through... you'ld have to wonder will they justify its success by linking it to PRP... I.e. "either get with the program or you won't be paid your 'bonus'."

In a few years the phrase 'Pay related performance' will change to 'bonus for doing your normal job' ..and look at the bad sentiment that has created already (Irish water!!!).

byhookorbycrook · 03-11-2014 11:04pm

Smgiff, you haven't answered my questions re performance pay at primary level?

SM746 · 03-11-2014 11:29pm

Just glancing through the last few days comments and there does seem to be a rebuttal from a fewcof the idea of bringing CPD into any performance related agenda. As I said I am firmly against results relayed pay but I think CPD should have a prominent role in any future system which I think will come.

All evidence based research indicates that teacher quality is the greatest influence on student achievement. Surely a properly thought out and structured CPD system with a clear and visible goal and outcome could only benefit education?

An improvement in teacher quality will inevitably come from good cpd and then the knock on effect would be seen so why not link compulsory CPD to a performance related pay system?

I recognise an overhaul of the current CPD out there is drastically needed but surely with the few right minds together that is achievable? I would love to have a say on it :-)

mirrorwall14 · 03-11-2014 11:56pm

SM746 wrote: »

Just glancing through the last few days comments and there does seem to be a rebuttal from a fewcof the idea of bringing CPD into any performance related agenda. As I said I am firmly against results relayed pay but I think CPD should have a prominent role in any future system which I think will come.

All evidence based research indicates that teacher quality is the greatest influence on student achievement. Surely a properly thought out and structured CPD system with a clear and visible goal and outcome could only benefit education?

An improvement in teacher quality will inevitably come from good cpd and then the knock on effect would be seen so why not link compulsory CPD to a performance related pay system?

I recognise an overhaul of the current CPD out there is drastically needed but surely with the few right minds together that is achievable? I would love to have a say on it :-)

I think there are several major issues with CPD at the moment:

1. Chronically underfunded/unorganised.
The Project Maths workshops are the perfect example. The materials never seem to be quite right so if you are the first group to go, the stuff isn't fantastic and can be riddled with errors (though it has improved in the last year). The questions teachers have tend not to get answered and the work can be ridiculous in the extreme (making function machines by rolling paper). There is little opportunity for peer discussion. Some of the materials are good but realistically the last two days I spent on CPD for project maths could have been done in about 2 hours by myself or in a small group going through the materials ourselves.

2. Not enough variety
I don't need to go to a basic course in computers but I'd love to go to a proper one in programming or one that does maths computing etc but there's nothing available at this level. Similarly in other subjects the same CPD is run year in year out with little options for progression. E.g. there are ipad courses running in drumcondra at the moment but there is only beginner and intermediate. What about those of us who are past that? Similarly if you read the course description for one of the other courses here it doesn't appear to go beyond basics. In fact drumcondra seem to be only offering three post primary courses this year, two of them are versions of the same course!
Additionally there are next to no post primary courses run over the summer-they are all primary school

3. Relevance
A lot of CPD is just not linked enough to the subjects/work in the classroom. We don't just need to know how to use google drive, unless subject specific examples that are relevant and useful are given-the reality is it will never be used. In a similar way I remember the early Project Maths workshops had tons of maths questions but none of them had a recommended level e.g. HL/OL or JC/LC. Thats just ridiculous. If we are giving time up for CPD it needs to be relevant and useful

4. Whole School CPD
This is frankly a complete waste of time in most cases. The numbers are too large for any meaningful discussion to take place. There is never enough time and crucially it simply cannot be aimed at all the different levels of knowledge in the room with boring some people to tears and completely losing others. I have sat through numerous full day workshops in various different schools and I can honestly say that the material could have been covered far more concisely and way quicker if it wasn't taught as CPD.
Croke park hours that had to be done as a staff in particular were horrific and a complete pen pushers exercise. What workplace environment do you know of that insists that all staff members take CPD together as one massive group??! They created huge amounts of resentment against CPD

Anyways that was longer than I anticipated but you get my thoughts

evolving_doors · 04-11-2014 12:26am

SM746 wrote: »

Just glancing through the last few days comments and there does seem to be a rebuttal from a fewcof the idea of bringing CPD into any performance related agenda. As I said I am firmly against results relayed pay but I think CPD should have a prominent role in any future system which I think will come.

All evidence based research indicates that teacher quality is the greatest influence on student achievement. Surely a properly thought out and structured CPD system with a clear and visible goal and outcome could only benefit education?

An improvement in teacher quality will inevitably come from good cpd and then the knock on effect would be seen so why not link compulsory CPD to a performance related pay system?

I recognise an overhaul of the current CPD out there is drastically needed but surely with the few right minds together that is achievable? I would love to have a say on it :-)

I think the whole notion of Performance Related Pay in a profession is abhorrent. Just let us get on with our work and get paid accordingly, if you want to incentivise CPD then just provide substitution and teachers will go of their own volition. To echo mirrorwall14's point above.. the CPD being offered is scant and very basic ..at best.. So I somehow doubt that they have the funds to put on anything more substantial than a one-day overview.

Personally I think what should be done is to pump more money into letting teachers seek out their own courses or allow them to propose to travel to the UK for better short term courses. (Sure there would be extra costs but consider the costs associated with PRP and all the paperwork, appeals, reviews, reports, inspections that go with it). So I would hazzard a guess that if the money is there to invest in a PRP system then the money is there to let teachers use their own professional judgement on what the trends are and what their needs are.

I also think the varied nature of what teachers believe to be relevant to 'their own' teaching, allows for a greater diversity of educational styles. If you have compulsory CPD then it will be agenda driven by what 'others' believe to be important things teachers must know. Is the stick of chalk less powerful than an iPad?? No, they are just different tools, and can be equally as educationally effective in the right hands.

SM746 · 04-11-2014 12:44am

Armelodie wrote: »

I think the whole notion of Performance Related Pay in a profession is abhorrent. Just let us get on with our work and get paid accordingly, if you want to incentivise CPD then just provide substitution and teachers will go of their own volition. To echo mirrorwall14's point above.. the CPD being offered is scant and very basic ..at best.. So I somehow doubt that they have the funds to put on anything more substantial than a one-day overview.

Personally I think what should be done is to pump more money into letting teachers seek out their own courses or allow them to propose to travel to the UK for better short term courses. (Sure there would be extra costs but consider the costs associated with PRP and all the paperwork, appeals, reviews, reports, inspections that go with it). So I would hazzard a guess that if the money is there to invest in a PRP system then the money is there to let teachers use their own professional judgement on what the trends are and what their needs are.

I also think the varied nature of what teachers believe to be relevant to 'their own' teaching, allows for a greater diversity of educational styles. If you have compulsory CPD then it will be agenda driven by what 'others' believe to be important things teachers must know. Is the stick of chalk less powerful than an iPad?? No, they are just different tools, and can be equally as educationally effective in the right hands.

Oh I agree that the thoughts of a PRP system, and especially the thoughts of results based pay, is abhorrent but I have no doubt that there is talks going on by some 'expert advisors' regarding the implementation of this issue and we will have some PRP system by the end of the decade I personally feel.

With that in mind I think what I am trying to raise in my last few points is what I feel would be the fairest way to get this implemented.

With the fact that teacher quality is so important in student outcomes, would bringing CPD to the fore not be the best initial starting point?
I say that in full agreement with what you and the previous poster have said about CPD in its current state not being fit for practice.

However a PRP system has to start somewhere and you can be sure the men in power will be monitoring England very closely to see what we can take from it.

I'm probably being totally pessimistic but I really believe PRP is coming and with the power brokers we have I can see it being implemented as poorly as the experiences our English posters have given us.

clartharlear · 04-11-2014 6:56pm

I'm not getting involved in the (vitriolic at times!) debate, but I thought some of you might be interested in the lesson observation aspect of PRP in the UK. Lessons are formally observed termly on average, but could be more if 'capability' is questioned. Much of the performance management is carried out by the middle management - a layer which basically does not exist in Ireland.

Here are the boxes we need to tick in each lesson: (the form changes substantially every year to keep up with the latest trends)

• Does the lesson start promptly and in an organised way? (TS4, TS7)
• Do the students have the correct equipment and resources to aid their learning?
• Are the students engaged with the task? (TS1,2,4)
• Has an effective starter activity been planned for? Does it build on prior learning or introduce new learning? (TS2, TS4)
• Have the learning objectives been introduced? Are they challenging (differentiated)? (TS2)
• Is the school’s policy regarding uniform and behaviour and health & Safety being adhered to? (TS2, TS7)
• Do the learning activities allow the students to meet the learning objectives? (TS4)
• Is the lesson appropriately pitched for this group? (TS2)
• Are there a range of tasks which allows all groups of learners to make progress? (TS2,4,5)
• Does each activity build on prior learning? (TS2)
• Are students taking responsibility for their own learning? (TS2)
• Are there high expectations? (TS1)
• Are the students engaged and on task? (TS4,7)
• Do the students understand the explanations provided and know what and why they are doing the tasks? (TS3)
• Does the teacher display good subject knowledge? (TS3)
• Can the teacher anticipate possible misconceptions and prevent/ deal appropriately with them? (TS3)
• Are the students making progress? What is the evidence for this? (TS2)
• How is the students’ progress being monitored? (TS6)
• How is this information being used to inform teaching and learning? (TS4)
• Are the students provided constructive feedback? (TS6)
• How are those students of whom are EAL and those with SEND, appropriately supported? (TS5)
• How do the students respond to the school’s agreed approach to rewards and sanctions? (TS7)
• Has a plenary activity been planned for and delivered? (TS4,6)
• Is there an orderly end to the lesson?
• Has all equipment and resources been safely packed away? (TS1,7)
• Has homework been set? Or handed in? (TS4)
• Does the homework activity challenge all groups of learners? (TS2,4)

Final reflection on progress…
• Have the learning objectives been met? What is the evidence for this? (TS2)
• Was there sufficient challenge within the lesson? (indicator: could students answer questions straight away or did they have to think and/ or develop their skills)

Work Scrutiny (TS2,6)
• Review the quality of feedback provided within marked work. Does the student (s) know how to progress?
• Do the students act on the feedback provided?
• Is there evidence that progress is being made over time?

Student Voice
• Is this a typical lesson?
• What level/ grade are you working at?
• What are your key areas of strength?
• What areas do you need to focus on? How can you improve within those areas?
• What do you enjoy most about this subject?

byhookorbycrook · 04-11-2014 7:52pm

Do the students have the correct equipment and resources to aid their learning?

The lack of all kinds of resources and the funding for the same mean this will never be introduced here. Many schools can hardly afford heating!

Is the school’s policy regarding uniform and behaviour and health & Safety being adhered to? Seriously,32 children in an overcrowded class where some children are doing well to come to school, not to mind have the full uniform, ?? * Snort*

How are those students of whom are EAL and those with SEND, appropriately supported? This would be funny, if it weren't so serious.

Is there evidence that progress is being made over time? How do we define and measure progress? Isn't that part of the whole issue? Are we still trying to ape the failed English system where every single child has hundred of objectives to be ticked and where many NQTS leave the job within a few years?

amacca · 04-11-2014 7:55pm

clartharlear wrote: »

I'm not getting involved in the (vitriolic at times!) debate, but I thought some of you might be interested in the lesson observation aspect of PRP in the UK. Lessons are formally observed termly on average, but could be more if 'capability' is questioned. Much of the performance management is carried out by the middle management - a layer which basically does not exist in Ireland.

Here are the boxes we need to tick in each lesson: (the form changes substantially every year to keep up with the latest trends)

• Does the lesson start promptly and in an organised way? (TS4, TS7)
• Do the students have the correct equipment and resources to aid their learning?
• Are the students engaged with the task? (TS1,2,4)
• Has an effective starter activity been planned for? Does it build on prior learning or introduce new learning? (TS2, TS4)
• Have the learning objectives been introduced? Are they challenging (differentiated)? (TS2)
• Is the school’s policy regarding uniform and behaviour and health & Safety being adhered to? (TS2, TS7)
• Do the learning activities allow the students to meet the learning objectives? (TS4)
• Is the lesson appropriately pitched for this group? (TS2)
• Are there a range of tasks which allows all groups of learners to make progress? (TS2,4,5)
• Does each activity build on prior learning? (TS2)
• Are students taking responsibility for their own learning? (TS2)
• Are there high expectations? (TS1)
• Are the students engaged and on task? (TS4,7)
• Do the students understand the explanations provided and know what and why they are doing the tasks? (TS3)
• Does the teacher display good subject knowledge? (TS3)
• Can the teacher anticipate possible misconceptions and prevent/ deal appropriately with them? (TS3)
• Are the students making progress? What is the evidence for this? (TS2)
• How is the students’ progress being monitored? (TS6)
• How is this information being used to inform teaching and learning? (TS4)
• Are the students provided constructive feedback? (TS6)
• How are those students of whom are EAL and those with SEND, appropriately supported? (TS5)
• How do the students respond to the school’s agreed approach to rewards and sanctions? (TS7)
• Has a plenary activity been planned for and delivered? (TS4,6)
• Is there an orderly end to the lesson?
• Has all equipment and resources been safely packed away? (TS1,7)
• Has homework been set? Or handed in? (TS4)
• Does the homework activity challenge all groups of learners? (TS2,4)

Final reflection on progress…
• Have the learning objectives been met? What is the evidence for this? (TS2)
• Was there sufficient challenge within the lesson? (indicator: could students answer questions straight away or did they have to think and/ or develop their skills)

Work Scrutiny (TS2,6)
• Review the quality of feedback provided within marked work. Does the student (s) know how to progress?
• Do the students act on the feedback provided?
• Is there evidence that progress is being made over time?

Student Voice
• Is this a typical lesson?
• What level/ grade are you working at?
• What are your key areas of strength?
• What areas do you need to focus on? How can you improve within those areas?
• What do you enjoy most about this subject?

That is interesting, in a mildly depressing way

Is it actually possible for any human being to tick all those boxes in one single lesson? - if we are talking about one lesson, how long is the lesson for? 40mins - 1hr?….presumably it would be a fantastic lesson that would tick all of those boxes and some sort of magician that would be able to tick those boxes 8-9 times a day, 5 days a week week after week with classes of 30+ students an increasing number of which with EBDs along with the usual stuff that goes on……….does the system expect everything to be perfect or is there common sense applied…i.e. the nature and size of the group is taken into account + other mitigating factors etc

There are a number of specific ones I'd have a problem with being marked down on personally, some examples are

• Do the students have the correct equipment and resources to aid their learning?

Is it the teachers fault if they don't in that system?…..what if they keep showing up without them, mammy won't buy them for them, they deliberately misplace them etc etc - why is that not showing up on their assessment rather than the teachers - do they have no responsibility for themselves in the system?

I consider resources to be things like, relevant textbook, pens, pencils, ruler, t-square, compass, calculator etc etc - When I was a student I was expected to bring theses things with me and I would have expected any students of mine to do the same…tbh I thought it was good training.

• How do the students respond to the school’s agreed approach to rewards and sanctions? (TS7)

Again why is this showing up on a teacher assessment…If the student responds badly to the school rules applied by the book is it that the individual teachers fault?

if the schools uniform and behaviour policy is not being adhered to, can that be said to be the entirely the teachers fault (if at all in a lot of cases) etc etc

I also kind of think this approach is a bit like a paint by numbers …… its going to drain any spontaneity or originality out of a classroom eventually as everyone will be singing off the same hymn sheet…..its funny in a way, many people are giving out about teaching to the test in this country…with a system like this you have every teacher brainwashed into teaching towards the teachers test (their assessment) if you get what i mean……

eg: while being assessed every teacher will be sure to have "high expectations"

T: I have high expectations for you little Johnny/class!
LJ: O.K. thanks sir, ill be sure and try harder now that you've said that like every other teacher every class period every day this week…..I'm sure the students themselves will begin to spot a familiar pattern after a while and consequently get very bored very quickly and the whole thing becomes meaningless after a while

but can an assessor state they didn't have high expectations if the teacher states it explicitly? I'd argue they couldn't, the use of opinion in a system like that could be easily disputed

Some of the above smacks of misguided micromanagement to me and i think ultimately although it or something like it will come in…imo it will be found to be unsuitable after about the amount of time it takes to wreck the system and be shown to have little or no effect on student achievement except perhaps a detrimental one……If I was still at it, I'd be motivated to ace the assessment rather than improve teaching as thats what the system is telling me it wants - some of that might align with better teaching but quite a lot of it wouldn't imo

Not the differentiation, normal class organisation aspects mind….I can see how these are important…just the way of going about it with nonsensical form filling, box ticking administrative nonsense that will grind the energy, enthusiasm and spontaneity out of the classroom teacher while creating another layer of HSE style clipboard jockeys

clartharlear · 04-11-2014 8:25pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Are we still trying to ape the failed English system where every single child has hundred of objectives to be ticked and where many NQTS leave the job within a few years?

I'm sorry if I wasn't clear - I AM in England. Thought it might be interesting for you at home to see what sort of situations PRP here leads to.

Afroshack · 06-11-2014 11:35pm

amacca wrote: »

That is interesting, in a mildly depressing way

Is it actually possible for any human being to tick all those boxes in one single lesson? - if we are talking about one lesson, how long is the lesson for? 40mins - 1hr?….presumably it would be a fantastic lesson that would tick all of those boxes and some sort of magician that would be able to tick those boxes 8-9 times a day, 5 days a week week after week with classes of 30+ students an increasing number of which with EBDs along with the usual stuff that goes on……….does the system expect everything to be perfect or is there common sense applied…i.e. the nature and size of the group is taken into account + other mitigating factors etc

There are a number of specific ones I'd have a problem with being marked down on personally, some examples are

• Do the students have the correct equipment and resources to aid their learning?

Is it the teachers fault if they don't in that system?…..what if they keep showing up without them, mammy won't buy them for them, they deliberately misplace them etc etc - why is that not showing up on their assessment rather than the teachers - do they have no responsibility for themselves in the system?

I consider resources to be things like, relevant textbook, pens, pencils, ruler, t-square, compass, calculator etc etc - When I was a student I was expected to bring theses things with me and I would have expected any students of mine to do the same…tbh I thought it was good training.

• How do the students respond to the school’s agreed approach to rewards and sanctions? (TS7)

Again why is this showing up on a teacher assessment…If the student responds badly to the school rules applied by the book is it that the individual teachers fault?

if the schools uniform and behaviour policy is not being adhered to, can that be said to be the entirely the teachers fault (if at all in a lot of cases) etc etc

I also kind of think this approach is a bit like a paint by numbers …… its going to drain any spontaneity or originality out of a classroom eventually as everyone will be singing off the same hymn sheet…..its funny in a way, many people are giving out about teaching to the test in this country…with a system like this you have every teacher brainwashed into teaching towards the teachers test (their assessment) if you get what i mean……

eg: while being assessed every teacher will be sure to have "high expectations"

T: I have high expectations for you little Johnny/class!
LJ: O.K. thanks sir, ill be sure and try harder now that you've said that like every other teacher every class period every day this week…..I'm sure the students themselves will begin to spot a familiar pattern after a while and consequently get very bored very quickly and the whole thing becomes meaningless after a while

but can an assessor state they didn't have high expectations if the teacher states it explicitly? I'd argue they couldn't, the use of opinion in a system like that could be easily disputed

Some of the above smacks of misguided micromanagement to me and i think ultimately although it or something like it will come in…imo it will be found to be unsuitable after about the amount of time it takes to wreck the system and be shown to have little or no effect on student achievement except perhaps a detrimental one……If I was still at it, I'd be motivated to ace the assessment rather than improve teaching as thats what the system is telling me it wants - some of that might align with better teaching but quite a lot of it wouldn't imo

Not the differentiation, normal class organisation aspects mind….I can see how these are important…just the way of going about it with nonsensical form filling, box ticking administrative nonsense that will grind the energy, enthusiasm and spontaneity out of the classroom teacher while creating another layer of HSE style clipboard jockeys

The issue of equipment etc is something that drives me mental and I'm SO glad someone else has commented on this. In English schools, books to write in are usually provided, as are the plays and novels etc. The students are basically only expected to bring a pen and there's always several who never have one..ever. It's our responsibility to lay out the books/highlighters/worksheets/extra pens before they get to the lesson and have it ready when they arrive.

Regarding the behaviour sanctions, we are expected to 'build relationships' with the kids to reduce the possibility of them acting up in class. This is all well and good, but the kids are also very aware of these expectations on us, and if you've read the Secret Teacher you're aware that many kids will deliberaltey pick an observation to act up BECAUSE they know they won't be blamed. It's ALWAYS the teacher's responsibility to make them happy in the lesson.

Yeah the 'high expectations' thing is a double-edged sword. It puts horrendous pressure on pupils to the point that a Year 7 female pupil of mine (age 12) has been diagnosed with Acute Anxiety because she's terrified of failing her GCSE's. The bored kids hear the 'expectations' reminders but it gets so commonplace that they simply don't believe it anymore, or they start to feel like anything less than an A (that doesn't tick the box in other words) equals a failure.

amacca · 07-11-2014 9:23am

Afroshack wrote: »

The issue of equipment etc is something that drives me mental and I'm SO glad someone else has commented on this. In English schools, books to write in are usually provided, as are the plays and novels etc. The students are basically only expected to bring a pen and there's always several who never have one..ever. It's our responsibility to lay out the books/highlighters/worksheets/extra pens before they get to the lesson and have it ready when they arrive.

Regarding the behaviour sanctions, we are expected to 'build relationships' with the kids to reduce the possibility of them acting up in class. This is all well and good, but the kids are also very aware of these expectations on us, and if you've read the Secret Teacher you're aware that many kids will deliberaltey pick an observation to act up BECAUSE they know they won't be blamed. It's ALWAYS the teacher's responsibility to make them happy in the lesson.

Yeah the 'high expectations' thing is a double-edged sword. It puts horrendous pressure on pupils to the point that a Year 7 female pupil of mine (age 12) has been diagnosed with Acute Anxiety because she's terrified of failing her GCSE's. The bored kids hear the 'expectations' reminders but it gets so commonplace that they simply don't believe it anymore, or they start to feel like anything less than an A (that doesn't tick the box in other words) equals a failure.

Pretty much as I thought……its misguided at best. And probably not going to result in better educational standards, actual education is taking a back seat because of some of this stuff.

Pinkycharm · 08-11-2014 2:24am

clartharlear wrote: »

I'm not getting involved in the (vitriolic at times!) debate, but I thought some of you might be interested in the lesson observation aspect of PRP in the UK. Lessons are formally observed termly on average, but could be more if 'capability' is questioned. Much of the performance management is carried out by the middle management - a layer which basically does not exist in Ireland.

Here are the boxes we need to tick in each lesson: (the form changes substantially every year to keep up with the latest trends)

• Does the lesson start promptly and in an organised way? (TS4, TS7)
• Do the students have the correct equipment and resources to aid their learning?
• Are the students engaged with the task? (TS1,2,4)
• Has an effective starter activity been planned for? Does it build on prior learning or introduce new learning? (TS2, TS4)
• Have the learning objectives been introduced? Are they challenging (differentiated)? (TS2)
• Is the school’s policy regarding uniform and behaviour and health & Safety being adhered to? (TS2, TS7)
• Do the learning activities allow the students to meet the learning objectives? (TS4)
• Is the lesson appropriately pitched for this group? (TS2)
• Are there a range of tasks which allows all groups of learners to make progress? (TS2,4,5)
• Does each activity build on prior learning? (TS2)
• Are students taking responsibility for their own learning? (TS2)
• Are there high expectations? (TS1)
• Are the students engaged and on task? (TS4,7)
• Do the students understand the explanations provided and know what and why they are doing the tasks? (TS3)
• Does the teacher display good subject knowledge? (TS3)
• Can the teacher anticipate possible misconceptions and prevent/ deal appropriately with them? (TS3)
• Are the students making progress? What is the evidence for this? (TS2)
• How is the students’ progress being monitored? (TS6)
• How is this information being used to inform teaching and learning? (TS4)
• Are the students provided constructive feedback? (TS6)
• How are those students of whom are EAL and those with SEND, appropriately supported? (TS5)
• How do the students respond to the school’s agreed approach to rewards and sanctions? (TS7)
• Has a plenary activity been planned for and delivered? (TS4,6)
• Is there an orderly end to the lesson?
• Has all equipment and resources been safely packed away? (TS1,7)
• Has homework been set? Or handed in? (TS4)
• Does the homework activity challenge all groups of learners? (TS2,4)

Final reflection on progress…
• Have the learning objectives been met? What is the evidence for this? (TS2)
• Was there sufficient challenge within the lesson? (indicator: could students answer questions straight away or did they have to think and/ or develop their skills)

We were given an exact list of these questions when I was with hibernia for the Dip for post primary and every lesson plan we did had to be checked against this and written as a reflection. Then for our inspections the inspector had this same list and unless we ticked the majority of boxes we were deemed unsatisfactory and had to endure another inspection until more or less all of the were ticked. This list bloody terrified me!! Not sure any of the rest of the colleges use it to the extent hibernia do!!

Performance - Related Pay???

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