DCC's plans for College Green

StreetLight · 08-02-2016 6:28pm #1

Cars and buses to be banned from large section of Dublin's College Green under radical new plans:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/cars-and-buses-to-be-banned-from-large-section-of-dublins-college-green-under-radical-new-plans-34434391.html

monument · 08-02-2016 7:48pm

Private car are already banned for most of the day and were going to be banned 24/7 as a given once the Luas Cross City project was approved.... How long are the Indo going to hold onto the past?

seamus · 08-02-2016 7:55pm

From the Indo's comments section;

My concern is that we are not mature enough as a society to appreciate and maintain such an imaginative plan.

The plaza at Temple Bar at the Central Bank is frequented by a questionable sub-culture, as are many other places available for the general public.

Without enforcement nothing will be sacred from the bog standard members of this land.

:D

Not sure if serious, but it's great piece of comedy either way.

The plan looks great anyway. It'll create a beautiful space, especially in the summer.

noelfirl · 08-02-2016 8:00pm

(Double post)

noelfirl · 08-02-2016 8:00pm

I never would have imagined that they would go up a step considering the previous plan was so thinned down to begin with. This is going to cause an epic response by interested parties. I can hear the five alarm press releases being drafted up be the AA/Brown Thomas/NCP even as we speak.

Anybody who has an opinion on this really needs to make sure they get in touch with their councillor because you can be sure that all vested interests on all sides will be.

From my own point of view, and as someone who, when at home, has been a lifelong Dublin bus user, I can see it as being doable, but with a lot of caveats.

At the very least, and after countless years tinkering around the edges, if it goes through, it's a big bold statement with regards to the future of the city.

Chris_5339762 · 08-02-2016 8:31pm

As a car user I hope this goes ahead. That entire area desperately needs to be car, bus (and taxi) free. Imagine restaurants getting a hold of that area on a very sunny weekend. Will be fantastic.

Edit: Christmas market location found

prinzeugen · 08-02-2016 8:51pm

Chris_5339762 wrote: »

As a car user I hope this goes ahead. That entire area desperately needs to be car, bus (and taxi) free. Imagine restaurants getting a hold of that area on a very sunny weekend. Will be fantastic.

Edit: Christmas market location found

You could count the number of sunny weekends on one hand. And Christmas market? Like the one on Henry St selling fake tat.

And I presume DDC know that not everyone that visits the city centre is able to walk/cycle.

Its going to make visiting the city centre hell for older, less able folk and people with disabilities.

Are the emergency services going to be able to drive through this plaza?

hmmm · 08-02-2016 10:01pm

This will be great - although I'd go further and get rid of taxi access.

The BOI building really needs to become "something" though - it's a wasted empty space as a bank branch.

magicbastarder · 08-02-2016 10:14pm

i really think they're pressing way too hard on the accelerator on this one; in the sense that there are so many other (smaller) things they could do, lower hanging fruit, to make the city centre more pedestrian friendly, which would be less controversial.

crushproof · 08-02-2016 10:59pm

prinzeugen wrote: »

You could count the number of sunny weekends on one hand. And Christmas market? Like the one on Henry St selling fake tat.

And I presume DDC know that not everyone that visits the city centre is able to walk/cycle.

Its going to make visiting the city centre hell for older, less able folk and people with disabilities.

Oh Prinzeugen, have you been to any traditional Christmas markets? Even across the pond, the Manchester Christmas markets outside the town hall are billed as one of the best in Europe - and attract thousands of visitors from all over every Christmas. This can easily be replicated perfectly on College Green - doubt they're been any fake tat :rolleyes:

And I reckon people with disabilities will be delighted to be able get around College Green without running the gauntlet of cars, taxis and buses. There will still be numerous bus stops less than 200 metres away, and of course a LUAS stop. I'm quite certain the planners have thought about this.

monument · 08-02-2016 11:09pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i really think they're pressing way too hard on the accelerator on this one; in the sense that there are so many other (smaller) things they could do, lower hanging fruit, to make the city centre more pedestrian friendly, which would be less controversial.

This isn't just a plaza for the sake of making the city pedestrian friendly, they are partly doing this to maximizing the north-south flow of trams, buses and taxis.

The current setup, the traffic all flows at the same time -- so there's only the traffic sequence and pedestrian crossing sequence. With Luas going two-way around TCD, there was a major conflict of movement at the junction -- the northbound trams would make it impossible for traffic to flow at once and it would mean there would have to be 3-4 different sequences.

The bus/bicycle mixed turning lane between the tram tracks outside the TCD gates would be very problematic and likely a safety risk (bicycle-tram conflicts, bus-tram conflicts, bicycle wheels getting caught in tram tracks with buses behind).

prinzeugen wrote: »

You could count the number of sunny weekends on one hand. And Christmas market? Like the one on Henry St selling fake tat.

And I presume DDC know that not everyone that visits the city centre is able to walk/cycle.

Its going to make visiting the city centre hell for older, less able folk and people with disabilities.

Are the emergency services going to be able to drive through this plaza?

Private cars won't fit with taxis, trams and buses. But private cars can already not use the street for most of the day and there's little to no parking in the area covered by the plaza. Taxis, trams and buses will be able to offer access, while access to most/all city centre car parks will be maintained under the wider city centre transport study.

Many older people, less able folk and people with disabilities can and do walk, and/or use bicycles and/or use mobility devices which are allowed to use footpaths or cycle paths.

Yes, emergency services can use plazas -- same as walking/cycling only streets and plazas around the world.

cgcsb · 08-02-2016 11:30pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

i really think they're pressing way too hard on the accelerator on this one; in the sense that there are so many other (smaller) things they could do, lower hanging fruit, to make the city centre more pedestrian friendly, which would be less controversial.

Avoiding controversy has left Ireland's largest airport without a rail connection. Avoiding confrontation has been the cause of Ireland's deteriorating public realm and infrastructure.

Cookie_Monster · 09-02-2016 12:45am

that plan just looks like a horrible sea of concrete to me, why not greenery at all?

edit: the cycle lanes also look bizzare and seem to just dump you in the middle of the luas stop or ped areas without proper consideration to linking them...

Spanish Eyes · 09-02-2016 12:49am

The mock up pictures look really great.

I'm going to have a bit of a moan though. Taxis allowed on the PT only corridor? Sorry there seems to be more taxis than private vehicles/vans all over the city, but especially around there. Re route them somewhere else in the area if possible.

I see the buses will be allowed to use the tram tracks WTF? Who will have priority? What happens when the bus stops at a stop and the tram is behind it? We all know what the dwell times are like for boarding and alighting buses FGS.

But maybe more information will come through.

Here is DCC presentation - Looks good to me in general. We might get a bit of our city back at last.

https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/college-green-presentation-seac-final-1.pdf

Spanish Eyes · 09-02-2016 12:54am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

that plan just looks like a horrible sea of concrete to me, why not greenery at all?

The trees have to go around there in order to open up the vista of a public plaza. At present the trees obstruct the views of the buildings. I'm sure they will put in some nice big flower boxes or something.

This is what it looks like today.

https://www.google.ie/maps/@53.3446811,-6.2594742,3a,75y,203.16h,97.62t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sF5KoW26cAAchcOOiDmhRlg!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Cathmandooo · 09-02-2016 1:02am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

that plan just looks like a horrible sea of concrete to me, why not greenery at all?

I think it could do with flower baskets like they have around the city but I'm glad to see the trees go (never thought I'd be happy to see trees go). The trees around the city block the beautiful buildings and statues we have, particularly around college green.

I love the idea of a Christmas market going on there. Last Christmas there was a lovely market inside the gates of the BOI at college green, they had lovely crafts and a choir.

Happy to see those drawings come to life!

monument · 09-02-2016 1:17am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

that plan just looks like a horrible sea of concrete to me, why not greenery at all?

edit: the cycle lanes also look bizzare and seem to just dump you in the middle of the luas stop or ped areas without proper consideration to linking them...

The design of the plaza is to be opened up to an international competition. The plans generally are draft and just outlines.

The design of the cycle route across the square is to be left up the designers of the plaza.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I'm going to have a bit of a moan though. Taxis allowed on the PT only corridor? Sorry there seems to be more taxis than private vehicles/vans all over the city, but especially around there. Re route them somewhere else in the area if possible.

Yes, taxis will be allowed. If there are issues there can be time restrictions put in place.

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

I see the buses will be allowed to use the tram tracks WTF? Who will have priority? What happens when the bus stops at a stop and the tram is behind it? We all know what the dwell times are like for boarding and alighting buses FGS.

Buses using tram routes is not an issue -- it's done in the Netherlands, including but not limited to Amsterdam. In Dublin's case, the section of shared roadway will not have bus or tram stops. So, there's no issues with buses stopping or pulling out etc.

Spanish Eyes · 09-02-2016 1:32am

monument wrote: »

The design of the plaza is to be opened up to an international competition. The plans generally are draft and just outlines.

The design of the cycle route across the square is to be left up the designers of the plaza.

Yes, taxis will be allowed. If there are issues there can be time restrictions put in place.

Buses using tram routes is not an issue -- it's done in the Netherlands, including but not limited to Amsterdam. In Dublin's case, the section of shared roadway will not have bus or tram stops. So, there's no issues with buses stopping or pulling out etc.

Great info there, that's good to know!

As you say the design is just in draft form at the moment, but it looks very good to me anyway.

starviewadams · 09-02-2016 1:47am

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The mock up pictures look really great.

I'm going to have a bit of a moan though. Taxis allowed on the PT only corridor? Sorry there seems to be more taxis than private vehicles/vans all over the city, but especially around there. Re route them somewhere else in the area if possible.

I see the buses will be allowed to use the tram tracks WTF? Who will have priority? What happens when the bus stops at a stop and the tram is behind it? We all know what the dwell times are like for boarding and alighting buses FGS.

But maybe more information will come through.

Here is DCC presentation - Looks good to me in general. We might get a bit of our city back at last.

https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/college-green-presentation-seac-final-1.pdf

Buses are huge part of this city, more than Luas will ever be. This plan is going to be a nightmare for the already unreliable cross city routes like 13, 40, 27 which will presumably shunted down the traffic choked quays without a second thought. Sickening, but no surprising.

People can pretend they are in Paris or Barcelona on Dublin's few proper sunny days a year, whilst thousands of bus commuters will be stuck in tailbacks on the quays.

prinzeugen · 09-02-2016 2:24am

monument wrote: »

Buses using tram routes is not an issue -- it's done in the Netherlands, including but not limited to Amsterdam. In Dublin's case, the section of shared roadway will not have bus or tram stops. So, there's no issues with buses stopping or pulling out etc.

As had been said 1000's of times before, this is Ireland, NOT Holand etc.

Most of mainland Europe was flattened during WW2 so this stuff could be built in.

You cannot do that in Dublin. Unless you demolish it first.

Dardania · 09-02-2016 4:08am

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The mock up pictures look really great.

I'm going to have a bit of a moan though. Taxis allowed on the PT only corridor? Sorry there seems to be more taxis than private vehicles/vans all over the city, but especially around there. Re route them somewhere else in the area if possible.

I see the buses will be allowed to use the tram tracks WTF? Who will have priority? What happens when the bus stops at a stop and the tram is behind it? We all know what the dwell times are like for boarding and alighting buses FGS.

But maybe more information will come through.

Here is DCC presentation - Looks good to me in general. We might get a bit of our city back at last.

https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/college-green-presentation-seac-final-1.pdf

I'm strongly in favour of this pedestrianising - trying to navigate that area by foot is a chore that puts me off.
And totally the city should be public transport centric.

However, from reading that presentation, I'm a little alarmed that it doesn't consider cross city traffic flows. I know college green has been off limits to private vehicles for a while, but would have been reassuring to see some link up with orbital routes or equivalent shown.

To simply shunt all bus stops to the quays without considering the impact on private motorists is a little presumptuous ( and could rile up the likes of the AA who have a strong wordsmith, appealing to the mass of drive time listening voters - could be a death knell to such an ambitious project)

seamus · 09-02-2016 10:03am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

edit: the cycle lanes also look bizzare and seem to just dump you in the middle of the luas stop or ped areas without proper consideration to linking them...

You and I are cyclists and big about enforcing cyclists' right to space, but this is one of the areas where one has to be more fluid with space sharing.
The cycle lanes will likely be somewhat advisory - the plaza will in general be a shared space where cyclists are not required to stick to the lanes nor pedestrians required to stay out of them. Cyclists will just need to slow down for the 30 seconds it takes to wind your way across the plaza and pedestrians will need to be accepting of bikes weaving in and out. There's no reason why cyclists and pedestrians can't share spaces like this for short distances.

Dardania wrote: »

To simply shunt all bus stops to the quays without considering the impact on private motorists is a little presumptuous ( and could rile up the likes of the AA who have a strong wordsmith, appealing to the mass of drive time listening voters - could be a death knell to such an ambitious project)

Look, the days of the private motorist in the city centre are coming to an end and people need to accept that. If you want to cross the city, use an orbital route rather than driving through the centre. The impact of bus stops on the quays will be somewhat moot when one side of the quays eventually becomes closed to private traffic anyway.

Part of the benefit of this activity is making it more difficult for private vehicles. They have no place in a city centre.

pclive · 09-02-2016 10:05am

The City Centre plan hasnt gone away large parts of the North and South Quays will be made public transport only.

Time to take the bus!

Dardania · 09-02-2016 10:24am

seamus wrote: »

You and I are cyclists and big about enforcing cyclists' right to space, but this is one of the areas where one has to be more fluid with space sharing.
The cycle lanes will likely be somewhat advisory - the plaza will in general be a shared space where cyclists are not required to stick to the lanes nor pedestrians required to stay out of them. Cyclists will just need to slow down for the 30 seconds it takes to wind your way across the plaza and pedestrians will need to be accepting of bikes weaving in and out. There's no reason why cyclists and pedestrians can't share spaces like this for short distances.

Look, the days of the private motorist in the city centre are coming to an end and people need to accept that. If you want to cross the city, use an orbital route rather than driving through the centre. The impact of bus stops on the quays will be somewhat moot when one side of the quays eventually becomes closed to private traffic anyway.

Part of the benefit of this activity is making it more difficult for private vehicles. They have no place in a city centre.

I tend to agree (private cars have no place in a city centre) - my comment is more that how DCC are handling this could lead to possibilty that there's more & more pushback (not to say that change needs to be easy - just they could have made a stronger link to : http://www.dublincity.ie/main-menu-services-roads-and-traffic-traffic-dublin/getting-around-dublin)

Edit: For the first time ever, I've looked at this: http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content//RoadsandTraffic/Traffic/Documents/Outer_Orbital_Route.pdf - I must say, it looks quite impressive. There/s a colouring scheme to what route you're on et al. Must pay attention to it next time I have the misfortune to drive through the city.
Certainly, it looks like they'll need to update the map to show no traffic on College Green if they successfully implement it

cgcsb · 09-02-2016 10:25am

Spanish Eyes wrote: »

The mock up pictures look really great.

I'm going to have a bit of a moan though. Taxis allowed on the PT only corridor? Sorry there seems to be more taxis than private vehicles/vans all over the city, but especially around there. Re route them somewhere else in the area if possible.

I see the buses will be allowed to use the tram tracks WTF? Who will have priority? What happens when the bus stops at a stop and the tram is behind it? We all know what the dwell times are like for boarding and alighting buses FGS.

But maybe more information will come through.

Here is DCC presentation - Looks good to me in general. We might get a bit of our city back at last.

https://static.rasset.ie/documents/news/college-green-presentation-seac-final-1.pdf

My understanding is that there will be no Dublin Bus stops on that section of luas track and the number of routes using it will be reduced.

Agree taxis should not be permitted, they're the bulk of the traffic using CG now.

cgcsb · 09-02-2016 10:30am

starviewadams wrote: »

Buses are huge part of this city, more than Luas will ever be. This plan is going to be a nightmare for the already unreliable cross city routes like 13, 40, 27 which will presumably shunted down the traffic choked quays without a second thought. Sickening, but no surprising.

People can pretend they are in Paris or Barcelona on Dublin's few proper sunny days a year, whilst thousands of bus commuters will be stuck in tailbacks on the quays.

Quays? sure the north quay cycle route will see buses permanently banashed to some magical mystery route around the northside's alleyways. Dublin City staff don't have to use buses they get free City Centre parking.

cgcsb · 09-02-2016 10:37am

prinzeugen wrote: »

Most of mainland Europe was flattened during WW2 so this stuff could be built in.

You cannot do that in Dublin. Unless you demolish it first.

A non argument, Amsterdam still retains it's pre war narrow streetscape, as does Brussels, Copenhagen,Munich and even Cologne. Paris, Lyon, Barcelona, Madrid, Milan etc.

Berlin, London and Frankfurt are the only major cities that seen a major change to their central streets after the war. Perhaps Manchester if you're counting that. Belfast was largely cut to sh!t by 1970's motorway fetishists rather than any German aggression.

cgcsb · 09-02-2016 10:41am

OSI wrote: »

Looks great, I can just imagine the tourists gleeful faces as they decided whether to go to Spar, Tesco Express or Abercrombie & Fitch to live out their romantic sunny plaza living.

Or probably see the book of kells, the trinners library or the former parliament of Ireland or one of the old banking halls etc.

cgcsb · 09-02-2016 10:58am

OSI wrote: »

Which aren't really going to be enhanced by this project are they?

I believe they will, getting in and out of those places can be chaos, pedestrians must cross many lanes of traffic like herded animals. It can be very off putting especially in the summer when massive circles of Spanish clog doorways.

Dodge · 09-02-2016 11:01am

cgcsb wrote: »

Dublin City staff don't have to use buses they get free City Centre parking.

A small portion of DCC staff have access to a car park. The majority either use public transport or pay for parking.

Pretty much the same as any city centre business/organisation

crashplan · 09-02-2016 11:09am

This will cause chaos for cross city public transport. The many buses that use South Great Georges street and Castle street will all now go where to get to their destinations? Fair enough ban private cars from the area but blocking public transport is a very short sighted idea.

DCC's plans for College Green

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