Performance - Related Pay???

andrewg1981 · 23-10-2014 11:17pm #1

Was with my mate tonight (Accountant) and he was on about his quarterly targets, etc and the pay bonus (small) that come with this and got me thinking on whether this elephant in the room will ever creep into the Irish education system.

Can you ever see this scenario? How would you envisage it working?

My own thoughts - Yes I unfortunately can see it / something very similar before my day to retire comes with the way our Ministers are driving our education system down the path to ruin.
I have no idea how you could fairly implement a system like this - DEIS school targets vs Private fee paying, etc - what would constitute your performance related bonus?
Do England have a system of performance related pay or one coming in that will be like this?

Very interested if some of you have opinions on this.

2011abc · 23-10-2014 11:35pm

Tried in the 1800s , complete disaster . Maybe Ministers should be required to take the History of Irish Ed exam rather than tormenting teachers arriving from abroad with it.Its about time people started to cop on to the fact that 'efficiency'= saving money to pay to their cronies .Lots of 'efficiency' in irish A+Es and classrooms these days .

MathsManiac · 24-10-2014 12:07am

2011abc wrote: »

Tried in the 1800s , complete disaster . .

You're assuming that the performance would be related to results in state examinations, which is not necessarily the case. It is commonly agreed that the "payment by results" system had very negative consequences.

In many performance-related pay scenarios, you discuss/negotiate/agree with your manager what your goals are for the year and what criteria will be used to decide on the extent to which you have met those goals. The subsequent performance evaluation is then based on this. While achieving a particular set of examination results with a particular group of students could conceivably be one of those goals, there is no reason in principle why it would have to be.

You may note, of course, that I have not expressed a view on whether I think performance-related pay would be a good idea! Here's a clue:

http://dilbert.com/strips/comic/2007-12-16/

spurious · 24-10-2014 2:33pm

You cannot apply business principles to education.
Wait, no, you can try, but it is a recipe for disaster.

clunked · 24-10-2014 2:45pm

But isn't that the thin end of the wedge. A possibility though is increments being given only after some form of evaluation of the teachers work, perhaps an appraisal by a school principal rather than the inspectorate. The reams of paperwork which will be imposed as a result of self-evaluation may be used in this context.

byhookorbycrook · 24-10-2014 4:19pm

clunked wrote: »

But isn't that the thin end of the wedge. A possibility though is increments being given only after some form of evaluation of the teachers work, perhaps an appraisal by a school principal rather than the inspectorate. The reams of paperwork which will be imposed as a result of self-evaluation may be used in this context.

Would totally destroy staff relations and how can you measure which teacher is better, the teacher who has 5 SEN children who don't get resource or SNA support but manages to juggle all their needs in a class of 30, or the teacher in disadvantaged school who has a smaller class, but some children who get no support at all from home?

clunked · 24-10-2014 7:53pm

Agree completely but don't you know it probably has been spoken in some IBEC/politico/mandarin love-in.

evolving_doors · 25-10-2014 8:39am

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Would totally destroy staff relations and how can you measure which teacher is better, the teacher who has 5 SEN children who don't get resource or SNA support but manages to juggle all their needs in a class of 30, or the teacher in disadvantaged school who has a smaller class, but some children who get no support at all from home?

. probably be like uk! senior teacher signs off on the self assessed grades for their yeargroup.... any problems then its back to the subject teacher to 'reconsider' the grades awarded or get students to sit a 'better' test. Naturally all students would be improving...
... to ensure the success of the new JC.

Tom Dunne · 25-10-2014 10:44am

It wouldn't work.

Teachers would stay away from low-performing schools because, well, low performance equates to low pay/no performance related pay.

High-performing schools, on the other hand, would have intense competition for staff, possibly driving wages/bonuses lower.

It's back to the age-old question - how do you measure performance in education? Results are certainly not a good indicator. Improvements in results? Still quite subjective.

evolving_doors · 25-10-2014 11:06am

Tom Dunne wrote: »

It wouldn't work.

Teachers would stay away from low-performing schools because, well, low performance equates to low pay/no performance related pay.

High-performing schools, on the other hand, would have intense competition for staff, possibly driving wages/bonuses lower.

It's back to the age-old question - how do you measure performance in education? Results are certainly not a good indicator. Improvements in results? Still quite subjective.

Aye, it wouldnt be good results per say, but 'improvement' in targets through goal setting by teachers and students.
As I mentioned before an Irish colleague in UK was told to 'improve their grades or get them to resit' otherwise he wouldnt be able to get his promotion (it filtered down from on high too after ofstead inspection). He walked back to the staffroom and saw alot of the teachers 'reconsidering' the grades awarded or making out a 'more suitable' test for resits.

This is where self assessment and non-standardisation across schools will lead us to.

clartharlear · 25-10-2014 12:21pm

MathsManiac wrote: »

In many performance-related pay scenarios, you discuss/negotiate/agree with your manager what your goals are for the year and what criteria will be used to decide on the extent to which you have met those goals. The subsequent performance evaluation is then based on this. While achieving a particular set of examination results with a particular group of students could conceivably be one of those goals, there is no reason in principle why it would have to be.

In my school in the UK, we have 3 targets for PRP - two 'negotiated' and one for exam results from the most senior exam year you teach (A2, AS, GCSE). So, even though I teach about 300 students in twelve classes from ages 11-17, my target depends entirely on the 8 students in my one A2 class this year. I thought it was bad when it was a class of 12 last year! No negotiation.

I also have to demonstrate that I achieve these targets before I go on maternity leave in February, or else I won't move up the pay scale (previously automatic).

SM746 · 25-10-2014 4:44pm

A very murky topic. As people have said; how the hell would you judge it fairly across all the differing schools we have and indeed across all the differing classes we have within some of these schools.
Very Intersting input from the teacher in England I must say. I would love to see what some of these "negotiated" targets are and how fair they are among all the different staff.
I could see an issue like this creating huge tension in a staffroom but I must agree with the OP - I can this bloody topic becoming a reality for us in some shape down the line.

acequion · 25-10-2014 8:05pm

clartharlear wrote: »

In my school in the UK, we have 3 targets for PRP - two 'negotiated' and one for exam results from the most senior exam year you teach (A2, AS, GCSE). So, even though I teach about 300 students in twelve classes from ages 11-17, my target depends entirely on the 8 students in my one A2 class this year. I thought it was bad when it was a class of 12 last year! No negotiation.

I also have to demonstrate that I achieve these targets before I go on maternity leave in February, or else I won't move up the pay scale (previously automatic).

That's horrendous!

acequion · 25-10-2014 8:09pm

SM746 wrote: »

A very murky topic. As people have said; how the hell would you judge it fairly across all the differing schools we have and indeed across all the differing classes we have within some of these schools.
Very Intersting input from the teacher in England I must say. I would love to see what some of these "negotiated" targets are and how fair they are among all the different staff.
I could see an issue like this creating huge tension in a staffroom but I must agree with the OP - I can this bloody topic becoming a reality for us in some shape down the line.

I could see such a model in totally privatised education,where as one poster pointed out, nobody would want to work in a low performing school and therefore, huge competition for the high performing schools where they'd have great fun altogether pitting against one another,with the unfortunate students as pawns.

It's like something George Orwell would dream up,for 2024 as opposed to 1984!

doc_17 · 26-10-2014 1:31pm

It will only happen if teachers allow it to happen. If we were in any way weak in our resistance to it, like CP & HRA, then it would get through.

As an idea in itself though it can only be a plus in the eyes of those who know absolutely nothing about education.

byhookorbycrook · 26-10-2014 9:58pm

Already, since results have started to form part of the end of year report, some primary schools are openly teaching to the test, to up their scores in the standardized tests.

The DES had promised the returns of these scores were only to get an overall picture of where the system was at and now is talking about removing SEN teachers from schools where the scores are "good."

If "payment by results" is introduced, that will be the death knell of Irish education.

SM746 · 26-10-2014 10:25pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Already, since results have started to form part of the end of year report, some primary schools are openly teaching to the test, to up their scores in the standardized tests.

The DES had promised the returns of these scores were only to get an overall picture of where the system was at and now is talking about removing SEN teachers from schools where the scores are "good."

If "payment by results" is introduced, that will be the death knell of Irish education.

I'd definitely agree with your last statement. Is there anywhere where it is claimed to be a success?

clartharlear · 27-10-2014 6:57pm

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/18/education/18rand.html?_r=0

A New York City program that distributed $56 million in performance bonuses to teachers and other school staff members over the last three years will be permanently discontinued, the city Department of Education said on Sunday.

The decision was made in light of a study that found the bonuses had no positive effect on either student performance or teachers’ attitudes toward their jobs.

Afroshack · 28-10-2014 9:37am

andrewg1981 wrote: »

Was with my mate tonight (Accountant) and he was on about his quarterly targets, etc and the pay bonus (small) that come with this and got me thinking on whether this elephant in the room will ever creep into the Irish education system.

Can you ever see this scenario? How would you envisage it working?

My own thoughts - Yes I unfortunately can see it / something very similar before my day to retire comes with the way our Ministers are driving our education system down the path to ruin.
I have no idea how you could fairly implement a system like this - DEIS school targets vs Private fee paying, etc - what would constitute your performance related bonus?
Do England have a system of performance related pay or one coming in that will be like this?

Very interested if some of you have opinions on this.

I'm in the UK and they brought it in this year. It's not related to grades, but the personal achievements you have in teaching, which is both helpful and problematic. For example, I have to create a list of extracurricular things I want to do, certain areas I want to improve in, and certain areas I want to be trained it. Then a bunch of observations will confirm if I have met those goals. It's difficult because it's totally subjective - some managers will mark you much harder than others and every manager has a different piece of criteria they want you to fill. It's also very unfair on the experienced teachers who are now on the higher-pay scale : it's basically telling them that they have to prove they are worth an extra 10K than an NQT, despite having actually taught and survived in the system for 10+ years. It's killing morale and keeps placing more responsibility on the teachers, when in reality, its the students who are mainly responsible for their own learning.

Powerhouse · 28-10-2014 12:52pm

Afroshack wrote: »

I'm in the UK and they brought it in this year. It's not related to grades, but the personal achievements you have in teaching, which is both helpful and problematic. For example, I have to create a list of extracurricular things I want to do, certain areas I want to improve in, and certain areas I want to be trained it. Then a bunch of observations will confirm if I have met those goals. It's difficult because it's totally subjective.

I spent a fair bit of time working in the private sector in the past ansd found performance-related discussion to be the wooliest most pointless exercise which was never a positive motivation for anyone.

If it is introduced in teaching it will simply be as a box-ticking exercise to show that some genius in the Dept achieved his own "deliverable". It will not serve education in any positive way in practice. Then again of course, unfortuantely it is theory not practice that usually drives this sort of decision-making.

clartharlear · 28-10-2014 6:25pm

Powerhouse wrote: »

Then again of course, unfortuantely it is theory not practice that usually drives this sort of decision-making.

Whose theory? There is no educational research or pedagogical theory that would stand behind PRP in any way - it's purely a political exercise, so the politicians can say "look what I've done to improve the system"...

Geuze · 29-10-2014 1:50am

http://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2014/10/should-we-pay-teachers-more.html

Blogpost on an economics blog about a charter school in NYC that decided to pay 125k USD + bonuses...............

doc_17 · 29-10-2014 9:01am

The last study is based on a charter school. What sort of admissions policy do they have? How much maths did they do to achieve that increase? And if they did more what was left off the curriculum? But I doubt if any PRP here would see salaries double as they did in the that study. Plus they lost their summer holidays. You'd be out on your feet after 3-5 years and then they'd get rid of you and replace you with somebody else

Powerhouse · 29-10-2014 3:32pm

clartharlear wrote: »

Whose theory? There is no educational research or pedagogical theory that would stand behind PRP in any way - it's purely a political exercise, so the politicians can say "look what I've done to improve the system"...

Yes, the theory of the people who will make the decision and will be blinded by notions of "incentives" and "productivity". Who said anything about educational research or pedagogical theory?

marienbad · 29-10-2014 6:17pm

But what can we do about those under performing teachers I wonder ?

Powerhouse · 29-10-2014 8:25pm

marienbad wrote: »

But what can we do about those under performing teachers I wonder ?

Not too sure of the answer to that, but it is in my experience of bonuses an unrelated question. Bonuses will not address that issue if that's what you're hinting at.

Powerhouse · 29-10-2014 8:30pm

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Would totally destroy staff relations and how can you measure which teacher is better, the teacher who has 5 SEN children who don't get resource or SNA support but manages to juggle all their needs in a class of 30, or the teacher in disadvantaged school who has a smaller class, but some children who get no support at all from home?

I noted this as a post I'd like to respond to a few days ago but forgot to come back it.

The questio "how can you measure which teacher is better?" is very very difficult. However some people in staffrooms are very quick to make such judgements themselves when whoever is in their favour gets great results. A teacher in my school got some great results in Maths in recent years (I'm not a Maths teacher by the way so it's not relevant to me) but when he was praised by his buddies there was never the accompanying observation that he always got the LC higher level elite class. Try a string of A grades with the lowest pass class instead maybe..........

andrewg1981 · 29-10-2014 11:48pm

That English experience is very insightful. Negotiated targets?? I would have thought that would be a major problem trying to implement; surely a huge increase in work load for administrators trying to 'negotiate' targets that everyone is happy with and then having to monitor / evaluate them.
Funnily enough I was speaking to a teacher from England on Sunday night during a catch up who outlined how his school operates a system of 3 inspection and your pay bonus is dependant on the outcome of those - I cannot remember the exact terms he used or who he said overseen these inspections (many pints were involved).
If it is payment based on results then it will be an absolute disaster.
Payment based on inspections - Who will do this? / Who will pay for it? Principals?? - Where will they get the extra time?
Payment based on CPD perhaps?? My mate did mention something about this being a component of some schools performance pay criteria and perhaps with the new TC guidelines on CPD this might be a route that they will explore. How will you evaluate the impact of the course teachers done though.
Very interesting observations raised by all and it is a topic I feel that we will unfortunately have to deal with in the coming years in teaching.

evolving_doors · 30-10-2014 12:19am

andrewg1981 wrote: »

That English experience is very insightful. Negotiated targets?? I would have thought that would be a major problem trying to implement; surely a huge increase in work load for administrators trying to 'negotiate' targets that everyone is happy with and then having to monitor / evaluate them.
Funnily enough I was speaking to a teacher from England on Sunday night during a catch up who outlined how his school operates a system of 3 inspection and your pay bonus is dependant on the outcome of those - I cannot remember the exact terms he used or who he said overseen these inspections (many pints were involved).
If it is payment based on results then it will be an absolute disaster.
Payment based on inspections - Who will do this? / Who will pay for it? Principals?? - Where will they get the extra time?
Payment based on CPD perhaps?? My mate did mention something about this being a component of some schools performance pay criteria and perhaps with the new TC guidelines on CPD this might be a route that they will explore. How will you evaluate the impact of the course teachers done though.
Very interesting observations raised by all and it is a topic I feel that we will unfortunately have to deal with in the coming years in teaching.

Here's what the chief inspector in the Dept. of Ed. has to say on 'Teacher Appraisal' article HERE or HERE for larger article.

Hislop added that this lack of teacher appraisal was at odds with “the Irish civil and public service where annual Performance Management and Development Reviews are commonplace.”
“Nor is there any formal annual process for reviewing the work of the principal,” Hislop said, noting that any changes would require a balance being struck “between professional autonomy and teacher accountability”.

I think this is already a done deal

marienbad · 30-10-2014 2:22pm

Powerhouse wrote: »

Not too sure of the answer to that, but it is in my experience of bonuses an unrelated question. Bonuses will not address that issue if that's what you're hinting at.

all these thing are interlinked , at least they are in other professions and disciplines

evolving_doors · 30-10-2014 7:16pm

marienbad wrote: »

all these thing are interlinked , at least they are in other professions and disciplines

Go on so, outline a model.

Performance - Related Pay???

Comments