chance of a lifetime "King's Ametyst"

copper12 · 13-10-2013 6:36am #1

Hi lad’s ladies
I hope some of you can advise me on the restoration of a 1966 carvel planked boat
She has been out of the water for over six years
I am at the moment stripping her down to bear wood
There a quite a lot of things too be done
I am hoping that when I come across problems you can offer some advise
the first time a stood on this boat I had already bought it
There was just something about it;
I had full intensions to strip it down and rebuild it if necessary
How ever she seems in incredibly good condition some miner repairs but nothing that I cant handle
I do have to build a forty foot mast as well

fergal.b · 13-10-2013 10:29am

Hi copper 12 and welcome, she is a fine boat alright best of look with her. The blog Kfod posted yesterday might be of interest to you http://falmouthquaypunt.blogspot.ie/
I'm not sure how much you know about boats but for something like this I think it might be worth getting an engineers report done on her before you spend too much money and just to know what your getting into as the engineer should be able to spot any hidden problems.
Love the polished brass prop it really sets her off

I did the same with mine before I even built the boat.

.

oceanman · 13-10-2013 10:48am

nice looking boat, best of luck with her.

copper12 · 15-10-2013 1:26am

Fergal B found that blog a couple of weeks ago great reading and some achievement on his part
To late now for an engineers report
It would not tell me anymore than I already know a lot of work ahead
It will take as long as it takes to get her back in the water I have no time schedule
When she’s ready I well-known her inside and out that’s is what I am aiming for
A few more pictures

davlacey · 15-10-2013 11:20am

best of luck with her. bit of info here on how to tackle things yourself
http://www.boat-building.org/learn-skills/index.php/en/wood/riveting-frames-ribs-small-boats/

breghall · 15-10-2013 1:54pm

that'll be nice winter project Copper12 , keep us updated. Best of luck with it.

pedroeibar1 · 15-10-2013 3:46pm

Looking at the photos I'm not sure that the boat has dry rot - the white strands are more typical of wet rot but it's hard to tell from the images, (an old house I restored had both!) Dry rot's usual symptoms are concave surfaces and brittle squares/cubes of wood because the fungus attacks the structure of the wood from within rather than from the outside. That causes the wood to shrink and disintegrate. Nor do I see the tell-tale 'globs' of the fruit of the dry rot fungus, from which the spores disperse. It would be worth getting a damp expert to look at it before you make a definite diagnosis. (The guys over on the Construction board would know more.)
If you live in an old house DO NOT bring any of the stuff from the boat into the house for storage or you risk a bill that would make your boat project look cheap!
Do keep us informed as to progress, looks like a great project.

fergal.b · 15-10-2013 6:16pm

Your main timbers and planks look good, looks like it was just the plywood that got wet and delaminated.

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copper12 · 15-10-2013 7:27pm

thanks for the reply
I will try and get better pictures
pedroeibar1 you are probable right time will tell I am still striping 14 layers of paint and two layers of fairing off the hull

davlacey · 15-10-2013 10:53pm

you might be better getting it blasted im not sure whats best for wooden boats soda or hydro or sand. i had a good 5 mill thick of paint to sand back to bare fiberglass it took about two months and alot of money on sandpaper looking back i should of just got it blasted all done in one day.

copper12 · 08-11-2013 6:15am

Finely after a month of scraping I am getting somewhere

Here or a few pictures of my efforts; any comments welcome

Any repair advice most welcome

While I am pleased with the overall condition of the hull; there are some areas of concern’ namely the bolt holes where they have rusted and blown the plugs

The planks with the paint still on; I will have to replace them they are softwood’ I will use mahogany at least that’s the plan

She most likely either went on the rocks or something about thirty years ago jugging by the amount of paint after the repairs

copper12 · 08-11-2013 6:23am

a few more

pedroeibar1 · 08-11-2013 12:10pm

I've seen work like Photo2 and Photo 3 above in art galleries with a huge price tag on them! Nice to see the progress, well done so far.
P.

Pigeon Reaper · 08-11-2013 1:43pm

I'm not sure if you mean softwood as in the wood type or softwood as in rotten. Most planking would be a softwood with the frame made of hardwoods. If you need to replace planks try to stay with the same type of wood as the rest of the boat. Not doing so may cause problems as they won't flex together and may swell at different rates. Mahogany will also be difficult to steam into shape.

kfod · 08-11-2013 2:11pm

Hi Copper12, just noticed this thread now! She is a fine looking boat

It's hard to know when looking at pictures what needs to be repaired or replaced. When we bought our falmouth quay punt, "Teal" it looked like a few ribs and a bit of planking needed to be done. You can see on the blog what we ended up doing was basically a 3/4 rebuild with all the hard stuff included!
Saying that yours looks to be in better shape and shelooks to be steamed frames and copper fastenings which makes removing fastners a lot easier if you have much replanking to do.

The work on our boat has taken a lot longer than we had planned for, we missed last season sailing because of it, but it is a great feeling to see an old boat being given new life and you have something to be proud of at the end. I basically have done loads of scraping and sanding and chopping out bad bits. The lad who is the other half owner is doing the tricky work, he is a complete boat nut and a carpenter so he loves the boat building and though he was handy at boatwork before we started ours he is damn good now! If you are nearby I am sure he wouldn't mind taking a look at your boat to give you some advice.

kfod · 08-11-2013 2:20pm

We used Iroko to replace some old larch planking. It was expensive and hard to steam and bend but it got there in the end. If you have a lot of planking to do and she is originally larch it would be easier to use and cheaper to replace with the same if you can source it handily.

The original planking on Teal was pitch pine and a lot of that remains good, the larch planking was put on in the 50's to repair some fire damage. It was softening / thinning and hence needed replacing. We wanted to replace with pitch pine but that is Really expensive and like hen's teeth to source. If your boat is pitch pine I don't know what would be best to replace it with, in the end it's all a compromise between cost and availability.

fergal.b · 08-11-2013 2:29pm

Jump on Kfod offer to have his mate to come and have a look

as a carpenter he should be able to tell you what type of timber it is and what needs to be replaced, could save you a few quid. The bolt holes can be drilled out and filled with epoxy then redrilled or you could cut out some dowels from waste timber and plug them in with epoxy.
Are you planning on fiberglassing the hull to seal it or are you going to try and keep it original.

.

copper12 · 09-11-2013 1:35am

Hi lads thanks for all the replies

I have Teals life blog; added to my favourites’ and have looked true every page’ some excellent work done there

My boat is a King Ametyst 33 build in Poland in 1966 hull No 80

She is carvel planked mahogany with laminated oak ribs

The softwood I am referring to; looks like pine to be honest; from the inside looks like floorboards modified to fit most likely done thirty years ago jugging by the layers of paint

I will replace these boards’ with mahogany’ I am still sanding her down at the moment; and learning as I go along; looking at the way she was built’ I will most likely use scarf joints’ to refit the boards that need to be replaced. Butt joints; done in the past have allowed rot to set in around the joints;

I am not going to go mad; and replace a whole lengths of board when a couple of feet will do

As you can see from some of the photos; there was some damage done; when she went aground; some cracks are within a couple of inches of scarf joints; credit to the men’ who built her; the joints held

I am hoping to use Casamite for the joints

Resorcinol. I would prefer to use’ as this was most likely the glue; used during construction’ and the joints have held; almost fifty years’ as good as the day they were made

　
again thanks for the replies
kfod if your frind is about in the city I can meet him although I would prefer to call down and see teal

kfod · 09-11-2013 3:24am

Your welcome to call down and have a look at Teal. Hegarty's yard is well worth a visit, there is any amount of old and historic stuff there, especially over the winter

Give a shout a few days before hand and chances are one of us will be able to meet you there.

We used resorcinol on some of the joints in Teal (a couple of planks were scarfed but mainly they were butted) but I think it was mainly used on plugs to fill where we removed fastenings. We got it here:

http://www.c-guard.co.uk/searchresults.asp

With Mahogany you need to be aware that there are different timbers sold as "Mahogany" but they do not all have the same characteristics. A google search will probably turn up more specific info.
When you are replacing the planks if there is a section of damage covering a few planks its best to step the joints so that you don't have multiple scarf joints / butt joints one above the other. You will end up using more timber this way but it is sounder.

copper12 · 20-11-2013 11:55pm

bow1.jpg

bow2.jpg

sanded1.JPG

sanded2.JPG

dd.JPGKfod I received some riconsoil’ from the link you provided; thanks for the tip

I finely finished removing the paint from the hull; I know have a clearer picture’ of what I need to do on the outside

The most difficult thing to do. will be the replacement of the rusted bolts; the heads have rusted’ and popped some of the plugs

I also started on the inside. removing the timber that has some rot; there quite a lot.

Around the engine bay’ all the board’s and timber; surrounding the engine’ are socked in oil’

Attached are some pictures’ as they say a picture tells a thousand words
bow1.jpg

bow2.jpg

copper12 · 20-11-2013 11:59pm

a few more
maststep.JPG

oakrot.jpg

engine.JPG

roof.JPG

themplates1.JPG

fergal.b · 21-11-2013 12:20am

Great work so far, it might be no harm to replace the motor stringers anyway they have probably worked the life out of themselves

Douglas fir works well for absorbing the vibrations and you can also laminate it in some plywood to prevent any cracking.

.

copper12 · 04-12-2013 12:34am

Evening everyone

I have been fairly busy lately’ have got a lot done; and have a lot more to do

I have managed to remove some bolts from the keel; I thought it would be a lot harder’ but they seem to come out easily enough’ I remove the wooden plug’ tap a screw driver around the edge of the head’ of the bolt and give it a good slap; from the inside seems to be going well so far

I removed the coach roof; and the forward hatch; I thought I would get away with leaving the decking’ and just sanding it’ but no such luck’ I will have to remove it. hopefully I can use it again; time will tell I did price some of the artificial stuff; but it seems dearer than teak itself

After Christmas; I will have to build a mast 39ft’ I have the original boom; can anyone give me a description of the hardware; I will need to use’ with a mast’ masthead; tangs; winches; and stuff anything at all might help

toshiba2010 · 04-12-2013 4:46am

WOW :eek: that looks like a rather mammoth task you have set yourself but i have to give it too you so far you are doing very well . this boat must mean a hell of a lot too you to have set yourself such a task . was it in the family for year,s and left to you ! or did you just want a project . i,m just curious because i would never set myself such a task . any way i would,nt have the skill,s or patience to take it on . i can,t wait to see her when she,s finished . i admire you and people like you that can take on such a task . keep it up

toshiba2010 · 04-12-2013 4:50am

i will be keeping a close eye on this to see how she turn,s out . very interesting i must say . good luck and all the best with her .

fergal.b · 04-12-2013 8:48am

I would hate to see your Santa list

Great work so far you will soon be at the stage where you add things to her instead of taking away.
I saw this on Adverts, not sure if it will be any good to you but might be worth a look. http://www.adverts.ie/boats-accessories/ships-deck-planks-new-1-72-sq-meters/3532752

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copper12 · 12-12-2013 8:53pm

Evening all

Weather has not been very good lately so in between the showers; I have been doing some work on the engine .

As far as I am aware it had not been used 1n six or seven years .

My initial thought was that it was seized; and would need replacing’ so I removed the injectors; and the rocker cover; everything was covered in rust .

Over a couple of days’ I sprayed WD40 down the injector holes’ and over the cams

I then got the biggest stencil; I had and started to move the fly wheel back and forth’ each time spraying some oil into the injectors’ and gently tapping the cam shafts’ eventually I got movement’t and now have the engine turning over’ with the starting handle freely

So I then striped the injectors’ fuel filters’ water pump’ and the oil pump’ they have now been cleaned and seem to be ok; the exhaust manifold’ when I removed it’ had been almost completely blocked; so were all the drain cock’ around the engine’ they are all free and cleared; when I put it all together I will use some fern ox or something similar to clean the waterways’ that I cannot gain assess to’ unless I strip the engine

There seems to be good compression in one cylinder’ and none in the other’ however after some fiddling I may have improved it some’ three of the push rods had been bent; so with a little heat’ and some gently hammering’ I have straitened them enough to try and start her shortly’ I had to raise the engine two feet; just to change the oil almost ruined the oil plug’ trying to remove’ it eventually I won; the first litre that came out of the engine’ was water; the oil was almost yellowy grey’ in colour I put a heat lamp’ under it for a couple of days, to help it drain,

I have also removed some ribs’ almost every second rib has a crack; in some, more than one

While I will not remove all of them; the ones with multiple cracks; will have to be replaced’ some are only damaged where they meet the keel; where over a number of years there must have been diesel leak.

the ends are damaged I will try and scarf a joint there

　

copper12 · 12-12-2013 8:57pm

a few more

copper12 · 12-12-2013 9:02pm

fergal that link I got them last week thanks for the tip

copper12 · 12-12-2013 9:10pm

this might help someone wiring diagram for a dynostarter Volvo MD2

fergal.b · 12-12-2013 9:12pm

Nice little engine she will look great cleaned up I love a bit of shinny brass and copper

Is that a dynamo in the last photo? if so it might be worth your while swapping it for an alternator to handle todays electronics.

Keep up the good work you won't regret it when you head off into the sunset.

.

kfod · 13-12-2013 8:19pm

It's pobably a dyna-starter fergal. The older volvo MD1B and MD2 has them. I think I have a pdf of the service manual for the MD engines here somewhere I'll have a look and let you know copper12

I have that pdf alright, its the workshop manual for MD1B-MD2B-MD3B engines, pm me and I'll send you on a copy if you want.

fergal.b · 14-12-2013 1:45pm

copper12 wrote: »

fergal that link I got them last week thanks for the tip

A bit more teak here if you need some http://www.donedeal.ie/boatextras-for-sale/teak-timber/5791340

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copper12 · 16-12-2013 9:31pm

Hi lads

I am still working on the engine

Almost finished now; putting it back together

I have taken off the exhaust manifold; this is water cooled’ and was almost completely blocked.

Cleaned and serviced’ the fuel injectors’ oil pump’ water pump’ thermostat’ starter generator’ and anything else; that I could remove .I took off the crank case cover’ to see if everything looked ok; and found a part of the governor’ in the sump’ it is in the right hand side of one of the pictures’ I removed the cover’ from under the fuel pump’ expecting to find it in pieces; however the governor’ was intact must have broken off a number of years ago’’ and was replaced with a new one. while putting back the engine I noticed that the mount’s had made groves into the timber supports so I placed some of the finest Sheffield stainless steel washers as support’s so maybe this week I might try and see if it will start just encase I have to remove or lift it again I put a piece of box iron across the deck to allow me to use a jack’ to lift the engine worked out quite well

tinski07 · 17-12-2013 8:36pm

Hi, I'm Kfods friend Adrian thats restoring Teal, I'm now angry because I just wrote all this and it disappeared. Its looks like you are
getting well stuck in anyway. I was just reading about your engine troubles.
I've had a few of those and your probably not going to like much of this.
The Dynastarts and manifolds are there downfall. The dynastarts are replaceable but at a cost, around 250 sterling. The regulators
can be replaced with a standard agri unit and a separate solenoid for starting, They are 50 euro odd in Cronins Commercial but they
are easy to F**k up, I think I was needing a 3rd one when I gave up on the MD2, The manifolds are a bigger issue, the ports are too small and they block and heat the aft cylinder, If you can unblock it well done but its probably been building that ****e up since the early 1960's, Replacements aren't available and any engines being sold for parts is because the manifolds are blocked.
The RB gearbox is also bit of a dog, They share the engine oil so if yours was crap that is through the gearbox as well. They are sticky at the best of times and don't work well on remotes, The later MD2B's have MS boxes which are much better as are the later manifolds, they also have starters and alternators.
I bought an MD11d to replace the MD2, it had been idle for years but clean and dry, I serviced it, ran it, fitted it and headed out only
to lose oil pressure. The Bearing shells had rusted and almost destroyed the crank shaft. Main and big end bearings cost me 300 sterling, a 100 sterling for Gaskets and 70euro to grind the maximum off the crank. It hurt.
The parts are out there but they are expensive. Bent push rods are almost a sure sign it water locked. I would advice you to break the engine down and take a serious look at it before making a decision on it.
They are expensive to fix and cheap to buy.
Sorry for a very depressing introduction but it might save you time and money.
Adrian

copper12 · 17-12-2013 10:36pm

Initially there was no movement from the dynostarter’ however after striping it down and cleaning I’t’ greasing the bearings’ it seemed to work ok’ granted this was on the work bench how it operates under load is an other matter

You are right about the manifold’ there were a couple of ports completely block I had to drill them out

The plan is to run fernox true the system once it is put back together then flush it out

I should know in the next few days or so how things will work out

Thanks for the info

tinski07 · 17-12-2013 11:11pm

Your welcome,
Two other bits of info. Kfods MD1 dynastart worked for a few seasons with very slack belts, As soon as we got sick of the
slipping and tightened the belts it destroyed the bearings,
The other thing is to unbolt the strainer, the large nut around the dipstick if you haven't already and make sure its clean
and if you take a gauge off a compressor it will fit in the oil light sender hole and tell you your oil pressure nice and easily.
Good luck with it.

copper12 · 29-12-2013 7:06pm

I have removed all the metal stringers straps treated and repainted them I have also got the oak ribs so I will start and replace the broken ribs next
I haven't managed to start the engine yet but I am getting close

20 and 65mm plugs.jpg

30mmplugs.jpg

65mm plug.jpg

oak ribs.jpg

stringers 1.jpg

copper12 · 21-01-2014 8:56pm

Evening all
I haven’t posted in a while
I have been busy however
I replaced most of the metal stringers; and scarf fed in, oak pieces’ awkward trying to line up the stringer; rib; and the outside hole .
Two people’ it would have been simple; on my own thing’s go out of line’ and I have to go in and out of the boat’ several times per stringer
Replaced all the bolts’ with galvanised bolts’ coated them in ‘bitumen tar, before inserting them
Took some templates’ of two of the ribs that I need to replace’ these were positioned under the mast step’ and were rotted true’ I tried to bend 2”teak; and 1”teak; even though I steeped them in water, at 50’C to 60’C for a couple of days; by the time I had them bent; and clamped; they had cooled
the 2”inch started to crack; the inch’ held but there was to much spring back’ to get it to fit the profile’ so I opted for laminating ½” instead; this was much easer to bend and gave me all the time I needed..
These were done cold’ glued with reconcile’ and clamped; very little spring back’ so I think it will work’ if I do two opposite ribs’ together’ I can brace them against each other
I would have posed more pictures but I dropped the camera down the bilge hole so I lost them all

fergal.b · 21-01-2014 9:05pm

Looking good and nice war wound :eek:

.

copper12 · 25-01-2014 6:18pm

Evening all
I tried to fit the ribs that I had made during the week; these were 50x60 mm;
I thought I had them bent close to the form of the original ribs
How ever’ when I went to fit’ I was out by 2 inches’ no problem I though’ got the first one fitted; with a bit of persuasion’ flush on one side, a little gap on the other, forget about the bevel; after it had been fitted about an half hour; I heard a crack’ like a gun shot’ it had cracked it two places’ not much only the first half inch piece didn’t look to bad.
However when I went to fit the other side. this rib cracked. even before I got it fully in place
So I removed the ribs altogether and will try again.
back to the drawing board
Next time, I will laminate them in place, and bevel the first piece’ so I get a flush finish
The plugs turned out well though; at least something went right
On another note; I have been using reconcile risen glue; very happy I went with this glue; easy to work with’ when the ribs cracked the glue joints held
Once you get the mix right’ equal amounts’ by weight;
I have been able to freeze unused glue; and reuse it again; It dose not frees completely; it is still pliable
and taw’s out quickly’ without any ill effects’
The plan now with the other ribs. both oak. and teak ribs. it to laminate ½” pieces. in place, and secure them before the glue goes off, there should not be a problem as the glue goes off slowly

copper12 · 25-02-2014 11:51pm

Just a few pick’s
I suppose I can blame the weather; some days I cant even climb the scaffold.
I am still replacing ribs’ and scarfing others’ almost finished now.
I have used brass screws, below the water line as much as I could and stainless screws, above
I then have to start on the stringers
Once I have all the ribs and stringers done; I will tackle the carvel planking; in one of the photo’s you can just make out a thin seem of caulking; it is only as thick as a candle wick; it is on either side of the plank’ has any of you come across this; I have not read about this type of caulking before;
Any information welcome .

tinski07 · 26-02-2014 12:21am

Do you mean brass or bronze, Brass shouldn't be used below the waterline or in anything majorly structural because it contains zinc that will become an anode in saltwater and they will become very brittle, brass isn't that strong to begin with. Your right to keep the stainless above the water also.
The caulking looks like it was caulked traditionally, She probably wouldn't have required much when new and its seems to compress to almost nothing considering the amount that goes in there. You sometime see seams that have dried to create a large gap that contains just a tread of cotton

fergal.b · 26-02-2014 12:42am

Agree with tinski07 the caulking looks traditional and good and tight not butchered over the years, here is a handy tip for doing it with the help of a pizza cutter

http://shipwrightintraining.wordpress.com/2007/03/07/rice-crispy-treats-gnashing-of-teeth/

.

copper12 · 26-02-2014 12:58am

back to the drawing board’ the screws I removed looked as if they were brass’ after fifty years they did not look to bad
I most likely got it wrong’ as brass and bronze; look alike; especially old used screws; I can remove most of them’ as for the rest:eek: ? thanks for the link for the caulking

tinski07 · 26-02-2014 1:06am

Yea almost definitely bronze then, I got all Teals off seaware.co.uk. They have been very good and have given me a size up if they were out of stock of anything. If you go with them just place the order and add a msg that you are ROI based and to contact you with post cost and they get in touch asap. Heads up tho Silicone bronze screws are gonna be close to a euro a pop for 10gauge though.

copper12 · 28-02-2014 7:46pm

Hi lad’s
Looking for some advice
Attached are two photos; one shows how tight the seem are on my boat’ the other the caulking’ on one of the bords that removed itself,
What I need to know is how much do I open the seem to calk the new boards that I attach
the three coins are 1€ 10 and five cent coins

tinski07 · 01-03-2014 11:35pm

I'm trying to figure out what way she's built, The picture you have of the planking in place makes it look like shes strip planked or perhap just epoxied seams, Theres no way the seams could be that tight. It doesn't look like there is any putty in the seams. Are there edge nails ? Is there definitely cotton in the seams or could they have been glued ?

tinski07 · 01-03-2014 11:49pm

Maybe take a look at this, http://www.artisanboatworks.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Glued-EdgePlanking_FINAL.pdf

copper12 · 02-03-2014 10:13pm

maybe some of these might throw some light on it
there is no caulking other than the cotton tread

fergal.b · 02-03-2014 10:32pm

In your second photo on the left hand side where the old paint is it looks like the caulking putty is raised so maybe when you sanded or scraped it off it just left the cotton behind.

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chance of a lifetime "King's Ametyst"

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