"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

MOH · 14-12-2015 11:05am

bk wrote: »

idiotic Veirified By Visa.

I thought that was supposed to be phased out this year?

bk · 14-12-2015 12:06pm

MOH wrote: »

I thought that was supposed to be phased out this year?

Lots of talk, zero action *

First of all, they aren't talking about getting rid of 3D Secure, they are talking about moving to 3D Secure 2.0, it will still be there!

Mostly they seem to be talking about one time passwords via SMS. So when you buy something, you still get redirected to another page where you enter a code that is automatically sent to you by SMS.

A small improvement over the current system, but still annoying and comes with it's own problems (what if you phone has no signal or battery dead, you are in a foreign country, phone stolen, etc.).

They also have some talk about biometric authentication, but no clear information on what that actually means.

I think and hope that means that it is built directly into Apple Pay (with touch ID) and Google Pay, without it getting in the way of customers.

But it seems we still have a long way yo go to get rid of this scourge.

EDIT: * Zero action is probably unfair, as Apple Pay seems to either implement 3D Secure 2.0 or more likely Apples own implementation of something similar which is likely actually driving what the 3D Secure 2.0 spec will end being. Just can't wait for it to hit Ireland.

devnull · 14-12-2015 12:26pm

bk wrote: »

First of all, they aren't talking about getting rid of 3D Secure, they are talking about moving to 3D Secure 2.0, it will still be there!

Mostly they seem to be talking about one time passwords via SMS. So when you buy something, you still get redirected to another page where you enter a code that is automatically sent to you by SMS.

That is already existing and has been for some years on the existing system, it's just not offered in many countries. ING Bank use this as the default setting for their banks in Europe since the beginning of Verified by Visa.

Biometric is completely new though.

bk · 14-12-2015 9:59pm

devnull wrote: »

That is already existing and has been for some years on the existing system, it's just not offered in many countries. ING Bank use this as the default setting for their banks in Europe since the beginning of Verified by Visa.

Biometric is completely new though.

Yeah, I think it was Apple who developed and drove the "biomteric" extension. It is pretty obvious since the first mention of Biometric for 3D Secure came about 1 month after Apple Pay with Touch ID was announced and Apple Pay seemed to use technology that didn't yet exist in the 3D secure specs.

Brilliant to see Android Pay and others take up the same now. It will make mobile commerce vastly easier.

coylemj · 14-12-2015 11:20pm

I have a Wi-Fi only (no SIM) Android tablet which is my only gadget with NFC, will I be able to add credit to my Leap card using that app when the tablet is connected to my home network?

Mario95 · 14-12-2015 11:26pm

coylemj wrote: »

I have a Wi-Fi only (no SIM) Android tablet which is my only gadget with NFC, will I be able to add credit to my Leap card using that app when the tablet is connected to my home network?

I don't see why a sim card would be needed. It should work with WiFi.

Vic_08 · 15-12-2015 2:23am

bk wrote: »

[2] I truly loathe Verified By Visa, it is a terrible design, which slows down mobile commerce and teaches people very bad security practice! The sooner it goes away the better IMO. I can't wait for Apple PAy, Google Pay etc. to launch in Ireland and make using such mobile services much easier.

Why don't you just disable it? I have it disabled on my CC for years, there is only a small delay as a transaction gets sent to 3ds and then bounced back to vendor authorised.

I know you are in love with every new IT innovation but I don't share your enthusiasm for fingerprint scanning authorisation.

How to steal from person's account: pinch iphone, lop off owner's thumb and take it with you.

bk · 15-12-2015 11:37am

Vic_08 wrote: »

How to steal from person's account: pinch iphone, lop off owner's thumb and take it with you.

Won't work for iPhone, Touch ID will only read a fingerprint with a pulse:

http://www.engadget.com/2013/09/16/why-a-disembodied-finger-cant-be-used-to-unlock-the-touch-id-se/

I'm not sure how this works for other fingerprint scanners (Samsung, etc.).

As anyone who works with computer security knows there is no such thing as perfect security, you can only make it better and harder, while trying to balance that with convenience for the end user.

BTW An important point about your scenario is risk versus reward. A criminal who cuts off your finger in order to steal your phone, has now gone from a minor crime of theft, that would likely get no prison time if caught, to grievous bodily harm and likely 5 years in prison if caught. Also police go from not really caring about the crime to likely a major police investigation and manhunt. Not worth it to steal a few hundred euro from some ones account *

I'm not saying it wouldn't ever happen (it has happened once with fingerprint enabled Mercs), but it wouldn't be as wide spread as people make out, just not worth the trade off.

* Actually €120 max at the moment as the limit for contact-less payments is currently €30 and you have to enter a PIN after every 4 attempts. Though that is likely to change in future.

Why don't you just disable it? I have it disabled on my CC for years, there is only a small delay as a transaction gets sent to 3ds and then bounced back to vendor authorised.

Not all cards allow that, certainly my AIB Visa card doesn't, nor does my stupid Permanent TSB card which I just ended up getting blocked just now because I tried :mad:

devnull · 15-12-2015 11:53am

I have never, ever been asked for a PIN for a contactless payment.

plodder · 15-12-2015 12:09pm

I've never been asked for a PIN either, but I assume that is because I have never used it in contactless mode 4 times without using it in an ATM or PIN pad machine at least once in between.

I do wonder about the liability implications of it though. You would have to assume that if you lose your card, the 120 euro will be gone out of it very quickly, and I don't recall ever "signing up" to it as such. It is very convenient though.

Dravokivich · 15-12-2015 12:34pm

I think the 4 attempts thing would be dependant on a time frame? Such as a day or so?

plodder · 15-12-2015 12:45pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

I think the 4 attempts thing would be dependant on a time frame? Such as a day or so?

Could be. I just looked at Bank of Ireland's site and they are vague about it. It just says you will be asked for a PIN "from time to time".

Alun · 15-12-2015 12:49pm

This is what AIB say over on their TalkTo forum ...

The maximum value for an individual transaction is €30; the maximum you can spend is €45 in consecutive contactless payment transactions before you will be requested to do a Chip & PIN transaction. This is for security purposes.

loyatemu · 15-12-2015 1:25pm

Alun wrote: »

This is what AIB say over on their TalkTo forum ...

so just keep doing €22 transactions to avoid the PIN? (asking for a friend :pac:)

MJohnston · 15-12-2015 1:29pm

bk - any idea what platforms the Leap app will support? I'm guessing Android only because (a) iOS doesn't support NFC and (b) no Windows because developers are jerks?

Alun · 15-12-2015 1:30pm

loyatemu wrote: »

so just keep doing €22 transactions to avoid the PIN? (asking for a friend :pac:)

How would that help? The €45 limit is cumulative, once you go over that amount it will trigger a PIN request.

Fred Swanson · 15-12-2015 1:34pm

This post has been deleted.

MJohnston · 15-12-2015 1:35pm

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

There's no time limit, it's consecutive transactions, no matter how long you wait in between. Easier to just enter the pin once in a while.

Alun · 15-12-2015 1:40pm

MJohnston wrote: »

There's no time limit, it's consecutive transactions, no matter how long you wait in between. Easier to just enter the pin once in a while.

Exactly, as I said, it's a cumulative limit, no mention of the word 'daily' anywhere in the quote I gave

MJohnston · 15-12-2015 1:43pm

Usually isn't a problem for me anyway thanks to Tesco being useless when it comes to modern technology.

devnull · 15-12-2015 4:14pm

Tesco are refurbishing stores and installing contactless in Ireland right now.

bk · 15-12-2015 4:27pm

MJohnston wrote: »

bk - any idea what platforms the Leap app will support? I'm guessing Android only because (a) iOS doesn't support NFC and (b) no Windows because developers are jerks?

As you say, this is Android only and only if your phone has the required NFC hardware (many don't).

Strictly speaking iPhones do have NFC hardware, as that is how Apple Pay works, however it is locked down by Apple and can only be used for Apple Pay, so this sort of NFC app wouldn't work on iPhone.

Hopefully the NTA will also add support for debit card contactless payments soon, like you have in London and Apple launches Apple Pay in Ireland. Thus you would be able to directly use your iPhone to pay for your ticket.

You are right, I doubt they will add Windows Mobile support.

_Puma_ · 15-12-2015 5:17pm

Funnily enough windows phone were one of the first to leverage NFC in their Lumia range. You used to be able to tag the NFC points at bus stops. Signed up to the top up app after applying to test it. Works a charm so far. Will save a lot of hassle for me as in Galway ya can only top up at payzone points, not on the buses themselves.

Avada · 15-12-2015 6:21pm

Just used the app for the first time. I'm impressed, really simple to use. Now they just need to get rid of verified by Visa and allow you to add tickets and it will be perfect.

Slippin Jimmy · 15-12-2015 6:33pm

Avada wrote: »

Just used the app for the first time. I'm impressed, really simple to use. Now they just need to get rid of verified by Visa and allow you to add tickets and it will be perfect.

You can buy the tickets on the leap website and it will be available from 8am the following day to load on to your card. I did this with the app on Saturday evening.

I would like to be able to buy tickets through the app itself. Hopefully this can be achieved in a future update.

plodder · 15-12-2015 6:37pm

Just tried it there too. Very slick. Nothing much else to add to what's been said. Except maybe even if you have no intention of using it for topups, it's worth having just for checking card balances.

L1011 · 15-12-2015 6:39pm

devnull wrote: »

I have never, ever been asked for a PIN for a contactless payment.

Ditto - and I use it a lot. BOI, rarely over a tenner but would sometimes.

Carawaystick · 16-12-2015 12:50pm

Slippin Jimmy wrote: »

You can buy the tickets on the leap website and it will be available from 8am the following day to load on to your card. I did this with the app on Saturday evening.

I would like to be able to buy tickets through the app itself. Hopefully this can be achieved in a future update.

You would wonder why oh why it would not be available to load immediately, or at the very latest before the start of the public transport day.

Beekay · 16-12-2015 2:38pm

How do you apply to test the app?

Slippin Jimmy · 16-12-2015 3:46pm

Carawaystick wrote:

You would wonder why oh why it would not be available to load immediately, or at the very latest before the start of the public transport day.

It would be much better if it was available straight away. The system needs to be improved.

Beekay wrote:

How do you apply to test the app?

I just emailed leap card and asked about the trial. Got a follow up email asking me to trial it.

Slippin Jimmy · 16-12-2015 6:36pm

I bought a 7 day ticket online on Saturday. Loaded it onto my card through the nfc app on the Sunday. Worked perfectly on Monday and for my morning commute on Tuesday. However, on the way home it said there was no product found.

I called leap support and explained this to them. They said they could see the 7 day ticket on my card and said it was probably a faulty machine on the bus.

I tried it both journeys today and had the same problem. Called them this morning when I got off the bus and was told to go to a pay zone and ask for a balance check. I did this and used it again this evening. Same thing happened again. Spoke with another chap in the support team and he confirmed that this was strange and that they could see the ticket. He said to fill in a form and they would refund it to me.

My card is not faulty because I've used it 4 times since Monday on dublin bus. I checked with the nfc app to see what tickets are loaded on to it. There are 2 expired 7 day tickets and 1 24 hour. When I loaded the ticket that I bought online there was only 1 7 day and 1 24 hour ticket expired.

I don't know if I should chance buying a ticket online and topping up through the app for next week's journey.

AngryLips · 18-12-2015 11:43am

Does anyone know if the transfer discount is applied on Luas/IE if the previous journey was made using a rambler ticket?

LXFlyer · 18-12-2015 12:17pm

AngryLips wrote: »

Does anyone know if the transfer discount is applied on Luas/IE if the previous journey was made using a rambler ticket?

No it isn't - it only applies where you use the epurse on the bus.

Dravokivich · 18-12-2015 12:40pm

lxflyer wrote: »

No it isn't - it only applies where you use the epurse on the bus.

Dublin Bus isn't needed. You can go from Luas to Irish Rail and get the Leap 90.

The only time Leap 90 doesn't apply between those 3 is:

Luas -> Luas

Irish Rail -> Irish Rail

LXFlyer · 18-12-2015 12:48pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

Dublin Bus isn't needed. You can go from Luas to Irish Rail and get the Leap 90.

The only time Leap 90 doesn't apply between those 3 is:

Luas -> Luas

Irish Rail -> Irish Rail

Re-read the post - I think they mean if they have just taken a bus journey using a rambler ticket and are switching to either IE or LUAS.

Why else would they mention a DB rambler ticket?

GM228 · 18-12-2015 12:51pm

Dravokivich wrote: »

Dublin Bus isn't needed. You can go from Luas to Irish Rail and get the Leap 90.

The only time Leap 90 doesn't apply between those 3 is:

Luas -> Luas

Irish Rail -> Irish Rail

I think lxflyer is distinguishing between ePurse (pay as you go) and rambler tickets as per the original question.

EDIT: lxflyer beat me to it confirming the above.

Thargor · 18-12-2015 4:15pm

Why am I always charged €1.50 from Heston Station into town instead of the 60 cent fare they advertise for Leap card users does anyone know? Ive tried asking for City Centre/Into town and 60 cent and they always say €1.50 is the minimum...

MJohnston · 18-12-2015 4:18pm

Thargor wrote: »

Why am I always charged €1.50 from Heston Station into town instead of the 60 cent fare they advertise for Leap card users does anyone know? Ive tried asking for City Centre/Into town and 60 cent and they always say €1.50 is the minimum...

Heuston is not inside the City Centre fare zone:
http://www.dublinbus.ie/PageFiles/12622/City_Centre_Fare_Feb_2015_v2.pdf

Thargor · 18-12-2015 4:20pm

Ah right, bit weird that they advertise it all over the station then! The one thing I didn't check...

traco · 21-12-2015 7:36pm

I don't use a leapcard but I'm trying to get a student one for my daughter. Applied on line photos etc. Guess I didn't read the t's and c's about ID etc. So when no card arrived I emailed to see what the story was, and was told I need to produce her passport / ID or what ever at certain offices, all of which are in town and not in anyway convenient as we are rerely in there.

Said grand, get it done over the Christmas and now they've canceled the application and I have to reapply again.

Why can they not accept a scan of a passport? I've done it for banks, child protection and even immigartion purposes for travel to regions where child trafficking is an issue???

Why does it have to be so hard, why not even let you post in a a garda station verified copy of the passport instead of physically having to go in? You can do that for a passport which would be a slightly more important document.

Its no wonder our public transport is so poor if its this much hassle to get a card to just use the system.

Victor · 21-12-2015 7:51pm

Can your daughter not do it in school / college?

traco · 21-12-2015 11:26pm

Victor wrote: »

Can your daughter not do it in school / college?

She could if she was in town, only in there once in a blue moon. Live in Portmarnock so bus is around Portmarnock, Malahide and Swords. We were heading in on Wed or thurs and were going to do it then.

Have to reapply now so it can be done then. I mean how easy would it be to have it verified by a school stamp?? it could even be at the local dart station by somebody working there. There's so many ways but no has to be in one of 3/4 offices in the city. Inefficiency at its best.

Dravokivich · 22-12-2015 9:26am

traco wrote: »

I don't use a leapcard but I'm trying to get a student one for my daughter. Applied on line photos etc. Guess I didn't read the t's and c's about ID etc. So when no card arrived I emailed to see what the story was, and was told I need to produce her passport / ID or what ever at certain offices, all of which are in town and not in anyway convenient as we are rerely in there.

Said grand, get it done over the Christmas and now they've canceled the application and I have to reapply again.

Why can they not accept a scan of a passport? I've done it for banks, child protection and even immigartion purposes for travel to regions where child trafficking is an issue???

Why does it have to be so hard, why not even let you post in a a garda station verified copy of the passport instead of physically having to go in? You can do that for a passport which would be a slightly more important document.

Its no wonder our public transport is so poor if its this much hassle to get a card to just use the system.

A Student leap card? Who were you talking to? That's not something Leap do.

LXFlyer · 22-12-2015 9:29am

OP exactly which card are you trying to get?

There are:
1) Child LEAP card (Under 16)
2) Child LEAP card (16-18)
3) Student LEAP card (for full time 2nd and 3rd level students)

traco · 22-12-2015 1:21pm

This is what the mail header said, she'll be 16 in 2 weeks so figured that one was the best??

leapcard.ie - Leap Card 16-18 Purchase Request Submitted

LXFlyer · 22-12-2015 1:39pm

traco wrote: »

This is what the mail header said, she'll be 16 in 2 weeks so figured that one was the best??

leapcard.ie - Leap Card 16-18 Purchase Request Submitted

Well that's a Child 16-18 LEAP card (not a student card).

You can order that online at https://www.childleapcard.ie/child-leap-card-16-18-years/ but, as it states, it is necessary to prove the user’s date-of-birth by showing them a valid photo ID at a validation centre.

Given that this is the first complaint about that issue that I've seen here, most people seem not to view it as such a big issue.

Yes it's annoying but there's not really much else that you can do. The discounted fares will make that one trip into town worth it.

Carawaystick · 22-12-2015 9:13pm

lxflyer wrote: »

Yes it's annoying but there's not really much else that you can do. The discounted fares will make that one trip into town worth it.

Unless say you live in Bearna, when there's nowhere in town to get it done and have to go to Dublin or Cork
And only during the week
And not during the hour and a half of lunchtime

LXFlyer · 22-12-2015 9:15pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

Unless say you live in Bearna, when there's nowhere in town to get it done and have to go to Dublin or Cork
And only during the week
And not during the hour and a half of lunchtime

It wouldn't be any use to someone in Bearna.

It's only valid on city services in Galway.

You really like sitting down and trying to come up with fantasy extreme situations don't you?

Carawaystick · 22-12-2015 9:36pm

lxflyer wrote: »

It wouldn't be any use to someone in Bearna.

It's only valid on city services in Galway.

You really like sitting down and trying to come up with fantasy extreme situations don't you?

What's fantastical or extreme is setting up an "integrated ticketing system" in Galway or Limerick and then preventing customers using it unless they travel to Cork or Dublin and then only for very restricted times

LXFlyer · 22-12-2015 10:39pm

Carawaystick wrote: »

What's fantastical or extreme is setting up an "integrated ticketing system" in Galway or Limerick and then preventing customers using it unless they travel to Cork or Dublin and then only for very restricted times

I'd be pretty sure that, although they aren't listed on the form, that the local Bus Eireann offices in Galway, Limerick and Waterford will validate them.

It's just a case that the form hasn't been updated to reflect that (which it should of course have been).

"Leap" into the unknown: The feedback thread

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