The Winds of Winter (Book 6 Discussion) SPOILERS for all books & future books

Little_Korean · 02-08-2013 10:58am

Just read the Barriston chapter - the Iron Fleet gets to wade into the action in all its black-sailed, kraken-flying glory???

Oooooooooh, yeah.

I'm starting to wonder if the series should just be renamed A Song of Salt and Squids, the ironborn are easily among the most entertaining parts of the series.

Barriston is also a totally kickass character, has touches of a David Gemmell-written character about him, what with the whole mediation on a warrior who's grown old and doesn't necessarily know what to do with himself.

02-08-2013 11:00am

Why wouldn't they tell Doran though? It doesn't make any bloody sense

Sleepy · 02-08-2013 11:01am

Illyrio arranged Dany's marriage to Khal Drogo. I think he believed she'd live our her life in relative obscurity as Drogo's Khaleesi whilst Viscerys was always going to get himself killed with his contempt for the Dothraki culture.

Mr Freeze · 02-08-2013 11:05am

Deleted User wrote: »

Why wouldn't they tell Doran though? It doesn't make any bloody sense

Oh Ya, the secret plot to marry Arraine and Viserys...

All these questions, just make me think he is definitely a fake, and something Varys and Illyrio came up with a few years after the real Aegon was killed.

Maybe Aegon was the backup plan, when they realised that Viserys was a fool, so they came up with the fake Aegon plan, and it obviously took years to get the point where it is now, and by then Viserys was dead and Dany had Dragons, so it remained the secondary plan, but then Dany seems to be showing no signs of moving West, so Aegon and co decided to go themselves. (Aegon and co, believe that Aegon is really a Targ tho).

02-08-2013 11:15am

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Oh Ya, the secret plot to marry Arraine and Viserys...

All these questions, just make me think he is definitely a fake, and something Varys and Illyrio came up with a few years after the real Aegon was killed.

Maybe Aegon was the backup plan, when they realised that Viserys was a fool, so they came up with the fake Aegon plan, and it obviously took years to get the point where it is now, and by then Viserys was dead and Dany had Dragons, so it remained the secondary plan, but then Dany seems to be showing no signs of moving West, so Aegon and co decided to go themselves. (Aegon and co, believe that Aegon is really a Targ tho).

Exactly, I posted this on the ASOIAF forum ;

This makes an awful lot of sense. The second they revealed Aegon in the books I just instantly thought fake. Another thing to consider is surely the people running Dorne would be informed of Aegon actually being alive. From their chapters they seem to be as surprised as everyone else. Also the Red Viper would have known if Doran knew(well you'd presume so)so his shouting at Gregor in their duel wouldn't seem right as in Tyrion IX ASOS the viper is told that the mountain killed Gregor & Elia. The viper shouts at him during the duel about the rape and the murder of children so if he knew Aegon was alive he would have kept it about Elia you'd expect? I really think that Aegon is Illyrio's son, I'd be nearly 100% :cool:

Mr Freeze · 02-08-2013 11:20am

Deleted User wrote: »

Exactly, I posted this on the ASOIAF forum ;

Would agree with all of that, except for Aegon being Illyrio son, I didn't notice any hint of that at all in the books.

I think Aegon, fake or not, will be dead early in The Winds of Winter anyways.

Gbear · 02-08-2013 11:20am

There's also the theory that he's Illyrio's son but his wife (possibly the one he really loved) was a Blackfyre, so although he isn't Aegon, (well, unless they named him that) he has a legitimate claim to the throne. In fact the Blackfyres have a more legitmate claim than the Targaryens did. The Targaryens just happened to win the civil war.

PhlegmyMoses · 02-08-2013 2:43pm

When Tyrion is looking at Aegon he says he can see a hint of violet in his eyes and his hair is clearly dyed to make him untenable as a Targaryen. Makes me think there's Targaryen blood there. That being said, it's hard to know what Illyrio is up to. Tyrion doesn't believe a word of what he says. But why would he want his own son to rule over Westeros? He is mega rich in Pentos and will be even richer should Daenerys or Aegon win out.

Son0vagun · 02-08-2013 9:33pm

If Aegon is fake and is going to die early on, then what had been the point if introducing him at all?

hidinginthebush · 02-08-2013 10:58pm

I really hope he doesn't die though, I think varys says that he's been brought up humble, doesn't see ruling as his right, more his duty, as opposed to dany who's always seen the throne as hers by right.

03-08-2013 11:06am

Son0vagun wrote: »

If Aegon is fake and is going to die early on, then what had been the point if introducing him at all?

Same could be said about the prince of Dorne who got roasted or any of the many people that have been killed off

TimeToShine · 05-08-2013 3:24am

Does anyone think Krakens will be introduced in the next two books? I remember reading that there was a sighting off some coast but other than that there's absolutely no mention of them, would it be fair for GRRM to pull them out of nowhere to facilitate the story?

Gbear · 05-08-2013 5:08pm

hidinginthebush wrote: »

I really hope he doesn't die though, I think varys says that he's been brought up humble, doesn't see ruling as his right, more his duty, as opposed to dany who's always seen the throne as hers by right.

Demanding to be the one leading the assault against Storm's End, naming Knights to the Kingsguard without the approval of Connington and generally his bossiness would suggest he's not entirely humble and reasonable.

Obviously, he's a King and can do whatever he likes and it's natural for him to be a bit uppity but I wonder will that willfulness be his downfall.

TimeToShine wrote: »

Does anyone think Krakens will be introduced in the next two books? I remember reading that there was a sighting off some coast but other than that there's absolutely no mention of them, would it be fair for GRRM to pull them out of nowhere to facilitate the story?

They might just be a myth. So far, dragons are the only mythical creatures we've seen. There's no reason for them to be the only ones around though.

madrab · 05-08-2013 9:01pm

Unicorns of skagos?

Gbear · 05-08-2013 9:06pm

madrab wrote: »

Unicorns of skagos?

Who knows? We haven't actually seen them yet.

GerB40 · 05-08-2013 11:43pm

Gbear wrote: »

Who knows? We haven't actually seen them yet.

Giants and mammoths north of the wall...

December2012 · 06-08-2013 12:21am

The wights.....

Direwolves....

Why not krackens?

I think they will be introduced.

06-08-2013 9:10am

There will be an epic battle around the iron islands at some stage I reckon & Krakens will be introduced by the priest.

Mr Freeze · 06-08-2013 9:17am

I could see Krakens coming into it in some way, they have already mentioned them, was it just a sailors tale or something? I can't remember exactly.

The Dragon stories reached Westeros as sailors tales, so I wouldn't discount it.

As for Unicorns on Skaagos, I can't see that happening.....Unicorns doesn't really fit in with the images of savage cannibals.

Duckworth_Luas · 06-08-2013 9:42am

Mr Freeze wrote: »

As for Unicorns on Skaagos, I can't see that happening.....Unicorns doesn't really fit in with the images of savage cannibals.

Doesn't one of the wildlings have a helmet made from a unicorn skull? They certainly exist but instead of being like horses with a single long horn they are described as being like goats.

Mr Freeze · 06-08-2013 10:02am

^

I had an image of the white stallion with a single horn and sparkles and rainbows behind it, hence my thinking that they might not exist. :pac:

Something like a goat is much more acceptable, I must look that up, I barely remember the references to them in the book.

Gbear · 06-08-2013 11:52am

It's worth pointing out that mammoths and direwolves aren't mythological.

There were mammoths around as recently as 6000 years ago and dire wolves up to about 10000 years ago.

Although actual direwolves were only slightly bigger than modern wolves.

Niska · 07-08-2013 1:28pm

Early in DoD, Jon has a dream of Shaggydog eating a horned goat like creature, whichis possibly (probably?) a Skagos unicorn.

07-08-2013 5:10pm

All I know is winter is coming.

hidinginthebush · 07-08-2013 5:21pm

[Deleted User] wrote: »

All I know is winter is coming.

Whoa there, has a release date been announced?

December2012 · 07-08-2013 6:18pm

What's the picture of?

07-08-2013 6:19pm

Fan-made by any chance??

A quick search on google news didn't allude to any announcement. Can see this being a long wait, 2014 is a dream.

Mr.Prodston · 07-08-2013 7:33pm

Deleted User wrote: »

All I know is winter is coming.

Hodor :eek: Hodor

Hodor

Hodor? :pac:

Hodor???

07-08-2013 10:13pm

Hodor!

I was just stating that because it should be out next year..... Winter is coming

Duckworth_Luas · 07-08-2013 10:21pm

The Starks are always right eventually; winter is coming. This one will be long and dark things will come with it... When winter does come, gods help us all if we're not ready!

TheKeenMachine · 08-08-2013 8:47am

December2012 wrote: »

What's the picture of?

The Horn of Winter I'd say.

Mr Freeze · 08-08-2013 11:01am

TheKeenMachine wrote: »

The Horn of Winter I'd say.

Most likely.

Regarding the horns though, isn't there 3 in play at the moment, the one Sam has, which could be the real Horn of Winter, the one the Wildings had, can't remember if that was confirmed as fake, did Mance lead them to believe that is was the real one?

And the one Euron gave Victarian that burns the lungs out of who ever blows it. I can't wait to see how this one plays out.

Washington Irving · 08-08-2013 3:35pm

Mr Freeze wrote: »

Most likely.

Regarding the horns though, isn't there 3 in play at the moment, the one Sam has, which could be the real Horn of Winter, the one the Wildings had, can't remember if that was confirmed as fake, did Mance lead them to believe that is was the real one?

And the one Euron gave Victarian that burns the lungs out of who ever blows it. I can't wait to see how this one plays out.

That was confirmed as a fake by Tormund to Jon. The Wildlings, or at least Mance's advisors knew that it was a fake as they failed to find the real one in the Frostfangs. Mance was to try use it as a bargaining tool to get the Wildlings south of the wall before Stannis showed up.

Gbear · 08-08-2013 11:29pm

SaulGoode9 wrote: »

That was confirmed as a fake by Tormund to Jon. The Wildlings, or at least Mance's advisors knew that it was a fake as they failed to find the real one in the Frostfangs. Mance was to try use it as a bargaining tool to get the Wildlings south of the wall before Stannis showed up.

Hence the invite to Jon in the first place.

The funny thing is, if they'd come to the Wall under peace banners to ask nicely to be let in, virtually everyone would have survived and all it would've cost them was a toll like they paid to Jon, some hostages and serfdom, but even then only to a degree - doesn't seem to be as bad in the north - the harshness of life there seems to make them all a bit more tolerant of one another. It's not like they were going to be able to conquer the whole of Westeros and sooner or later the south would've mosied up and killed them all.

Of course that would've required Jon being Lord Commander but it's not completely outrageous to assume that Donal Noye would've been open to it had he not died, and he would've been one of the front-runners.

They were the enemey, sure, but after the Fist of the First Men plenty of the NW saw who the real enemy was and I'd say that Jon would've been far from the only one in the NW to allow the wildlings the benefit of the doubt.

PhlegmyMoses · 09-08-2013 11:44am

Just read the chapter where we find out that Tyrion knows who Aegon is. He recognises him as a Targaryen from his appearance. There is no way that he's Illyrio's son.

09-08-2013 2:10pm

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Just read the chapter where we find out that Tyrion knows who Aegon is. He recognises him as a Targaryen from his appearance. There is no way that he's Illyrio's son.

This is the thing there are some people from the Targaryen line scattered everywhere, the Blackfyres being one well know branch so I think that he could have had "Aegon" with one of these. It just doesn't make sense why he is so involved.

Gbear · 09-08-2013 2:28pm

PhlegmyMoses wrote: »

Just read the chapter where we find out that Tyrion knows who Aegon is. He recognises him as a Targaryen from his appearance. There is no way that he's Illyrio's son.

Illyrio wouldn't have just excreted him from his fat belly.

A few times in the books it has been stated that the Blackfyre line is extinguished in the male line. So whoever Illyrio had the child with could've been said female heir.

PhlegmyMoses · 11-08-2013 6:12pm

Gbear wrote: »

Illyrio wouldn't have just excreted him from his fat belly.

A few times in the books it has been stated that the Blackfyre line is extinguished in the male line. So whoever Illyrio had the child with could've been said female heir.

But why help Daenerys and Viserys to the extent that he did if he had a son for the Iron Throne? Why would he even want his son to rule in Westeros?

Illyrio is playing an odd game and nothing is clear. Tyrion doesn't believe anything he says but really struggles to understand what his end game is. I just don't really buy that son theory.

Witcher · 11-08-2013 6:30pm

I've read a lot of theories about Aegon..and at the moment all cards are on the table but I haven't got it in me to accept that he's real..it's too easy. I've said before that Dany becoming queen would be too easy and nice but even she would be better than Aegon.

Ignoring for a moment that this is GRRM were talking about..I don't think any writer would stoop to the 'infant prince switched and spirited away before his family is deposed, to be raised humbly by a brotherhood of exiles and one day return to claim his family's throne' storyline..even Dany's storyline had personal hardships that have forced her to earn her place to some degree, Aegon just popped up and appointed himself the rightful king. On the topic of Aegon's humble upbringings..when he's playing cyvasse with Tyrion on the Shy Maid he loses and he kicks the table onto the ground and orders Tyrion to pick it up. He hasn't achieved a thing so far yet he's already ordering people around. Hardly a good sign..echoes of Joffrey there.

I don't think any Targaryen will be king/queen again, I think it would be a disservice to the story and it would be no triumph for them to walk into Westeros where nearly every Great House is in ruins and put their arse on the throne as if they're conquerors. I mean the Starks, Tullys, Baratheons basically sacrificed all to defeat the Lannisters and apparently a Targaryen is going to walk in the back door, boot Tommen up the hole and sit on the IT..no fcking dice man..no fcking dice:pac:

Lovely Bloke · 12-08-2013 8:52am

are the existing chapters available as a mobi or epub?

12-08-2013 8:55am

Baldy Conscience wrote: »

are the existing chapters available as a mobi or epub?

Nope check out the links Mr.Freeze has in the 2nd post in this thread. The Barristan II exerts especially are worth a read!

Lovely Bloke · 12-08-2013 9:10am

Well that's not very helpful at all.

buckfast69 · 30-08-2013 5:25pm

TheKeenMachine wrote: »

I came up with a theory last night about Cersei's trial in AWOW (it's probably been mentioned somewhere online already but anyway) - presuming that Ser Robert Strong is Gregor Clegane and the gravedigger on the Quiet Isle is The Hound, I think Martin is setting up Cersei's trial by combat to be a face off between the Clegane brothers with Sandor chosen as the champion of the faith.

There is a bit of foreshadowing in the earlier books IIRC - Sandor hates Gregor and wants to kill him. Tbh I was a bit disappointed when both died without Sandor's revenge happening

Thoughts?

You've read my mind, there is a rule in writing that if you mention a gun in act one that someone will have to fire the gun in act 3. You can see this time and time again GOT, the Iron Bank of Braavos and the faceless men were mentioned in passing in the first book, and then you have the guy tychio nestoris(I could be way off on the spelling) showing up at Stannis camp and Arya goes off to join the faceless men.

We got a taster of the Hound VS the Mountain at the tourney of the hand, but it was stopped by King Robert. I think its fair to say that everone wants to see a rematch between an undead Mountain(Rob Strong) Vs The Hound(Reborn).

On a side note, has there been any mention of who the faiths champion is going to be for the trial by combat???

GerB40 · 30-08-2013 6:44pm

buckfast69 wrote: »

You've read my mind, there is a rule in writing that if you mention a gun in act one that someone will have to fire the gun in act 3. You can see this time and time again GOT, the Iron Bank of Braavos and the faceless men were mentioned in passing in the first book, and then you have the guy tychio nestoris(I could be way off on the spelling) showing up at Stannis camp and Arya goes off to join the faceless men.

We got a taster of the Hound VS the Mountain at the tourney of the hand, but it was stopped by King Robert. I think its fair to say that everone wants to see a rematch between an undead Mountain(Rob Strong) Vs The Hound(Reborn).

On a side note, has there been any mention of who the faiths champion is going to be for the trial by combat???

Wasn't the hound reborn in the light of the seven? I know it's a stretch but if the faithful wanted a serious fighter, who better than the hound? I can't imagine how he gets from the quiet isle to kings landing but Im sure GRRM could find a way. The hound is too good a character to just fade into nothing...

Witcher · 30-08-2013 7:02pm

It'll probably be someone like Bonifer Hasty that will be cleaved in half.

Paddy Cow · 08-09-2013 9:11pm

buckfast69 wrote: »

You've read my mind, there is a rule in writing that if you mention a gun in act one that someone will have to fire the gun in act 3. You can see this time and time again GOT, the Iron Bank of Braavos and the faceless men were mentioned in passing in the first book, and then you have the guy tychio nestoris(I could be way off on the spelling) showing up at Stannis camp and Arya goes off to join the faceless men.

We got a taster of the Hound VS the Mountain at the tourney of the hand, but it was stopped by King Robert. I think its fair to say that everone wants to see a rematch between an undead Mountain(Rob Strong) Vs The Hound(Reborn).

On a side note, has there been any mention of who the faiths champion is going to be for the trial by combat???

Is the Hound dead though? It was mentioned from Arya's pov a few times that she wished she'd given him the gift of mercy. We are lead to believe that he was so far gone he was dead but what actual proof is there? I remember vaguely a reference to someone finding his helmet on top of a grave. Was there anymore detail to it that I'm forgetting?

Duckworth_Luas · 08-09-2013 9:27pm

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Is the Hound dead though?

Brienne visits the monastery on Quite Isle where the head brother says that the Hound is dead and the monks now possess his war horse. However, Brienne also notices a rather large hooded gravedigger in monk's clothing. The Hound is dead but Sandor Clegane is still alive.

Paddy Cow · 08-09-2013 9:55pm

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

Brienne visits the monastery on Quite Isle where the head brother says that the Hound is dead and the monks now possess his war horse. However, Brienne also notices a rather large hooded gravedigger in monk's clothing. The Hound is dead but Sandor Clegane is still alive.

Thanks for the info

intellectual dosser · 23-10-2013 10:20am

Right, I finally finished ADWD - great book after an incredibly boring AFFC. Some of the theories posted here fit perfectly, and I wouldnt have thought of many of them (It took me so long to read AFFC that I forget a lot of the finer detail).

Anyway two things:

- In the second last chapter, Dany gets her moonblood, she cant remember the last time she had it. Has the curse been broken? Can she bear children again?

- From AFFC I was lead to believe that the entire plot was started by Littlefinger. He admitted that he and Lysa Tully plotted to kill Jon Arryn which triggered a long chain of events. In the final chapter Varys claims to Ser Kevin Lannister that his plan is in motion. Varys and Littlefinger are certainly not friends - who is in control of the greater scheme of things here?

Mr Freeze · 23-10-2013 10:29am

intellectual dosser wrote: »

- In the second last chapter, Dany gets her moonblood, she cant remember the last time she had it. Has the curse been broken? Can she bear children again?

Either she is fertile again or its just her moonblood. Has this prophecy been fulfilled?

"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east. When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before"

Sun rising and setting - Quentyn Martell dying.
Seas go dry - Dothraki sea, not an actual sea drying up.
Not sure about the mountains one, unless the Pyramids count and the dragons are burning them down, or could be a reference to a volcanic eruption. Isn't Valryia still erupting? When Tyrion and co passed near, didn't they see something?

intellectual dosser wrote: »

- From AFFC I was lead to believe that the entire plot was started by Littlefinger. He admitted that he and Lysa Tully plotted to kill Jon Arryn which triggered a long chain of events. In the final chapter Varys claims to Ser Kevin Lannister that his plan is in motion. Varys and Littlefinger are certainly not friends - who is in control of the greater scheme of things here?

Well Varys has a plan to get a Targaryen back on the throne, and his plan was probably set in motion years before Littlefinger started his plot. Its a game to each of them, positioning players for the throne, just Littlefinger wants it for himself.

The Winds of Winter (Book 6 Discussion) **SPOILERS for all books & future books**

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The Winds of Winter (Book 6 Discussion) SPOILERS for all books & future books