Car free Dublin City Centre?

rp · 11-06-2015 8:09am

magicbastarder wrote: »

i've always been in two minds about the wisdom of allowing taxis to use lanes which private cars are not allowed into - a taxi is no more efficient a way of getting from A to B than a private car, and is arguably less so, as the capacity of a taxi is usually 4 'travellers' but 5 for a private car.

Be in one mind. It would make more sense environmentally to let Boeing 727s use the Bike/Bus lane:
Bikes_Most_Efficient.png.662x0_q70_crop-scale.jpg

Tenzor07 · 11-06-2015 8:13am

I think they should re-open Grafton street to car's and bus traffic!

ThisRegard · 11-06-2015 8:28am

L'Enfer du Nord wrote: »

Have to disagree with your vision for Grafton street. It's been a shopping street since the 19th century. Are their that many fast food joints? I like to sit outside with a coffee or drink as much as the next man but Grafton street is a shopping street not an entrainment hub. I'm not a huge fan of Grafton Street but I 'd really miss it if all the shops were replaced by charmless coffee shops and restaurants. And believe me with Grafton street rents they would be charmless.

Yeah, because the several McDonald's, Burger Kings, phone shops and tat crap add so much more character.

Grandpa Hassan · 11-06-2015 9:09am

ThisRegard wrote: »

Yeah, because the several McDonald's, Burger Kings, phone shops and tat crap add so much more character.

I'd have to agree with ThisRegard. The state of retail on Grafton right now is woeful.

Hrududu · 11-06-2015 9:11am

ted1 wrote: »

Also single occupancy cats should be banned during rush hour

Dades · 11-06-2015 10:16am

ThisRegard wrote: »

Yeah, because the several McDonald's, Burger Kings, phone shops and tat crap add so much more character.

There's only one McDonalds, and two BKs. Yes, there's a bunch of well presented phone shops but there's also two BTs, Tommy Hilfiger, Massimo Dutti, Swarovski and other misc jewellers etc. If people want to eat/drink there's loads of open air places on the likes of Ann Street and Duke Street.

I was in Paris last month and the Champs Elysees is an identical mix of phone shops, sports shops, Next, M&S... together with high end fashion stuff.

My only issue with Grafton Street is the buskers who cause crowds to form in the narrower points and/or use amps.

tomasrojo · 11-06-2015 10:22am

Dades wrote: »

My only issue with Grafton Street is the buskers who cause crowds to form in the narrower points and/or use amps.

Don't really mind the buskers directly (I used to do it myself), but people forming a large circle around the performer is a real problem if you're trying to get up Grafton Street in a hurry, as I used to be, three days a week, pushing a double stroller.

(Might be a bit of envy, as I never attracted a large circle of street-blocking admirers.)

ThisRegard · 11-06-2015 10:32am

Dades wrote: »

There's only one McDonalds, and two BKs. Yes, there's a bunch of well presented phone shops but there's also two BTs, Tommy Hilfiger, Massimo Dutti, Swarovski and other misc jewellers etc. If people want to eat/drink there's loads of open air places on the likes of Ann Street and Duke Street.

I was in Paris last month and the Champs Elysees is an identical mix of phone shops, sports shops, Next, M&S... together with high end fashion stuff.

My only issue with Grafton Street is the buskers who cause crowds to form in the narrower points and/or use amps.

First, the Champs Elysees is not all that, it's only worth going down if the Tour is on.

I used to work on Grafton Street for years during the 90s. Doesn't matter what how many other good stores are there, it's still not as good as it could be. And I stand corrected, there's only 3 fast food restaurants in that short space of road, not 4.

tomasrojo wrote: »

Don't really mind the buskers directly (I used to do it myself), but people forming a large circle around the performer is a real problem if you're trying to get up Grafton Street in a hurry, as I used to be, three days a week, pushing a double stroller.

(Might be a bit of envy, as I never attracted a large circle of street-blocking admirers.)

You weren't the little traveller who sang the same verse of Ironic, over and over, every bloody evening outside PTSB when I was there were you

tomasrojo · 11-06-2015 10:40am

ThisRegard wrote: »

You weren't the little traveller who sang the same verse of Ironic, over and over, every bloody evening outside PTSB when I was there were you

No, but you do find that you know a small selection of songs (or pieces if you do classical guitar, which is what I was doing) that get a lot more money than all the others you know. Cavatina, Asturias and Recuerdos de la Alhambra for me. Pachelbel's Canon, if you're a string quartet.

Maybe Ironic was that kid's earner.

ThisRegard · 11-06-2015 10:45am

It had to be her earner, it was the only song she ever sang. I used to enjoy the buskers back then, particularly when it was a quieter street than it is now Leave the window open on a summers evening if there was a good one nearby. And then pop into Bruxelles for a quick one before heading home.

OleRodrigo · 11-06-2015 11:13am

Buskers were better back then - now its just Wonderwall and some Coldplay crap.

magicbastarder · 11-06-2015 1:18pm

rp wrote: »

Be in one mind. It would make more sense environmentally to let Boeing 727s use the Bike/Bus lane:

i wonder what occupancy of the 727 they're assuming in that graphic?

Burning Bridges · 11-06-2015 1:25pm

I wonder will it be as cycle "friendly" as Grafton Street is now?

magicbastarder · 11-06-2015 1:34pm

one of the main problems removing cars for the city centre would face is the fact that the likes of brown thomas were given permission to build a large multistorey car park yards from grafton street, and which can only be accessed down narrow streets, streets which they should have been discouraging traffic from.
try removing cars from that street now, and BT would potentially have its hand out for significant compensation.

ted1 · 11-06-2015 2:12pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

one of the main problems removing cars for the city centre would face is the fact that the likes of brown thomas were given permission to build a large multistorey car park yards from grafton street, and which can only be accessed down narrow streets, streets which they should have been discouraging traffic from.
try removing cars from that street now, and BT would potentially have its hand out for significant compensation.

The car park can be redeveloped and a profit turned.

Leroy42 · 11-06-2015 2:21pm

Was there any mention of the need for additional, secure, bike parking around the city in the PR? If they are looking to increase the levels of people cycling they will need to have much more places where to lock your bike. Given the complete lack of thinking in this regard in terms of train stations etc I am not hopeful.

laraghrider · 11-06-2015 2:47pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

one of the main problems removing cars for the city centre would face is the fact that the likes of brown thomas were given permission to build a large multistorey car park yards from grafton street, and which can only be accessed down narrow streets, streets which they should have been discouraging traffic from.
try removing cars from that street now, and BT would potentially have its hand out for significant compensation.

That's what happened the bus corridor around college green. They initially planned it for 24hour but a new business group go together and pressurized the government to roll back on it. They gov did and it later turns out the new business group was a group of car park owners.

Personally I think they should cut the corner off the road at the grafton st entrance to Stephen's Green and turn that whole area into a big town square type thing.

magicbastarder · 11-06-2015 3:50pm

ted1 wrote: »

The car park can be redeveloped and a profit turned.

have they paid off the cost of the construction of the car park? even if a profit could be turned on whatever it became, the question is whether they would make less money than they are currently making.

Burning Bridges · 11-06-2015 3:52pm

ted1 wrote: »

The car park can be redeveloped and a profit turned.

Is there not a long term tax break for those that invested in carparks, if the council grant permission to build , they cannot take away their ability to earn money.

ted1 · 11-06-2015 4:42pm

Burning Bridges wrote: »

Is there not a long term tax break for those that invested in carparks, if the council grant permission to build , they cannot take away their ability to earn money.

they dont have to take away their ability to make money, but they are under no obligation to provide roads.

In the present enviorment they could make plenty of money from commercial, retail or residential property in the City Centre.

I'm sure that could implement tax incentive could repalce any existing one.

housing is badly needed, and they want less cars in the city. So it'd make sense to incentivise the change of use.

Sure farmers change their crop every year to take advantage of grants

magicbastarder · 11-06-2015 5:07pm

but that's the farmer's choice. the analogy doesn't measure up at all.
for a council to grant permission for a car park and then remove the ability for cars to get to that car park probably only a decade later would make them look utterly idiotic - let alone the earnings hit for the car park itself.

L'Enfer du Nord · 11-06-2015 6:04pm

ThisRegard wrote: »

Yeah, because the several McDonald's, Burger Kings, phone shops and tat crap add so much more character.

It's a shopping street so no surprise it has a few shops selling a product which is one of the major consumer products of the current age. 3 fast food joints, i.e. Less than 5% of the shops. I'm sorry I just don't see how the area would benefit from Grafton Street having more outdoor cafés blocking the road. The south inner city would just be a weird place without a shopping street, Grafton Street is that street and has been for over 100 years. The shops could improve, but the area doesn't need more cafés with people sitting outside them, there's no shortage of these right next to Grafton Street.

Back on topic, the whole area is terrible for cycling, so many pedestrianised and one way streets. St. Stephens Green for a start should have some counter flow bike paths.

brianomc · 11-06-2015 6:19pm

They could realistically pedestrianise South William Street and not affect the BT car park too much. There's 2 barriers at the car park entrance. Make the right hand one for cars in, left (as you drive in) for cars coming out. They might have to rejig the layout inside but a few traffic cones won't break the bank.

Muahahaha · 11-06-2015 8:28pm

Bucklesman wrote: »

There was a study done earlier this year by the NTA that found that less than a fifth of revenue on Grafton Street and Henry Street was from people who came by car.

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/consumer/public-transport-users-and-walkers-spend-most-in-dublin-shops-1.2107019

There was also another report that stated cyclists come into the city centre more often than motorists and on average spend more money in the city centre throughout the year.

This argument that the city centre will be left devastated by restricting car access is a bit of a red herring. Sure, some people won't drive in and will instead go to the retail parks to get large items but for those that do they'll be readily replaced by cyclists who previously avoid the city centre because they perceive it as unsafe. Once the infrastructure is in and works more cyclists will regulary visit the city and, as a previous report shows, cyclists come into the city more often and spend more money throughout the year than motorists do.

ROK ON · 11-06-2015 8:47pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

have they paid off the cost of the construction of the car park? even if a profit could be turned on whatever it became, the question is whether they would make less money than they are currently making.

Looking at the returns and rental yield from prime office property in the central business district I think it would be relatively unchallenging to find alternative use of the space where the car parks are located.
Dublin has a shortage of high quality centrally located office buildings.

Grandpa Hassan · 11-06-2015 8:59pm

Muahahaha wrote: »

There was also another report that stated cyclists come into the city centre more often than motorists and on average spend more money in the city centre throughout the year.

This argument that the city centre will be left devastated by restricting car access is a bit of a red herring. Sure, some people won't drive in and will instead go to the retail parks to get large items but for those that do they'll be readily replaced by cyclists who previously avoid the city centre because they perceive it as unsafe. Once the infrastructure is in and works more cyclists will regulary visit the city and, as a previous report shows, cyclists come into the city more often and spend more money throughout the year than motorists do.

Who buys large items from the city center any more anyway?

L'Enfer du Nord · 11-06-2015 10:21pm

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Who buys large items from the city center any more anyway?

Starbucks do some pretty big coffees. Enorme skinny latte or something.

Tenzor07 · 11-06-2015 10:55pm

I think it's an awful plan, would much prefer something like this! :pac:

Raam · 11-06-2015 11:30pm

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Who buys large items from the city center any more anyway?

I bought four bikes in the city center. :pac:

magicbastarder · 11-06-2015 11:32pm

ROK ON wrote: »

Looking at the returns and rental yield from prime office property in the central business district I think it would be relatively unchallenging to find alternative use of the space where the car parks are located.

there's no way you could sell the space occupied by the BT car park as 'prime office space'.
prime office space is the sort of office space you'd get on dawson street/stephens green/baggot street/etc.; not in a backstreet like clarendon street at the BT car park entrance.

Tenzor07 · 12-06-2015 10:35am

magicbastarder wrote: »

there's no way you could sell the space occupied by the BT car park as 'prime office space'.
prime office space is the sort of office space you'd get on dawson street/stephens green/baggot street/etc.; not in a backstreet like clarendon street at the BT car park entrance.

Any office space within the central Dublin 2 area is prime office space, it probably doesn't get any more "primer" than that area!

cython · 12-06-2015 10:47am

Raam wrote: »

I bought four bikes in the city center. :pac:

Did you bring them home like this? http://www.bikesatwork.com/static/images/customers/craig-corson-carrying-one-bike-1.jpg :pac:

Muahahaha · 12-06-2015 11:19am

Grandpa Hassan wrote: »

Who buys large items from the city center any more anyway?

Probably not that many, personally I just go to a retail park because the parking is free and theres less hassle getting there and back. My guess is that the opposition to a pedestrian and cycle friendly city centre is from the likes of Brown Thomas and similar high end businesses. If I were the CEO of BT's I'd be going mad over these plans- customers of BTs spend a lot of money per head coming in the door and the management there would be keenly aware that the type of customer who spends big bucks there will never take public transport or cycle- these people are not the type who would drop €2000 on some clothes and then get the bus home. They are a pedestrian only in the sense that they walk from the BT car park into the store itself.

I can understand the Brown Thomas position but certainly dont agree with it. As the city centre gets more and more squashed and congested we have to ask ourselves are we going to make policies that reflect the needs of the vast majority of the citys population or are we going to make policies that suit the less than 3% of the population that can afford to drop megabucks in BT's but refuse to do so unless they can get in and out by car (or Chelsea tractor?)

Muahahaha · 12-06-2015 11:25am

magicbastarder wrote: »

there's no way you could sell the space occupied by the BT car park as 'prime office space'.
prime office space is the sort of office space you'd get on dawson street/stephens green/baggot street/etc.; not in a backstreet like clarendon street at the BT car park entrance.

A back street wouldn't be a good spot to have prime office space for sure. But I'm sure Brown Thomas themselves would love the opportunity to extend their store into the car park. There is already a walkway running between the two so developing the car park into more retail space would make sense. Dublin City Council could use it as a carrot to get the car park closed and relocated to Hueston with the quid pro quo that BTs get planning permission for change of use from a car park to retail.

Cookie_Monster · 12-06-2015 12:36pm

buffalo wrote: »

Suffolk St is currently closed to all traffic, and has been for a couple of months, and the sky hasn't fallen in.

:eek:

clearly its been a while since I was in Dublin

magicbastarder wrote: »

for a council to grant permission for a car park and then remove the ability for cars to get to that car park probably only a decade later would make them look utterly idiotic - let alone the earnings hit for the car park itself.

why? 10 years is a long time and things change. the needs of private business shouldn't be put in front plans that benefit society.

markpb · 12-06-2015 4:23pm

As an aside, Brown Thomas don't own the BT car park, they just license their name to the car park operators. They obviously have a vested interest in keeping it there but if it closes, it doesn't mean that they can expand the shop into it.

Leroy42 · 12-06-2015 4:50pm

There is no way that taxis will not be allowed into the city centre. They are currently treated the same as other public transport (use of bus lanes etc) so to try to exclude them is never going to happen.

the world wonders · 12-06-2015 5:33pm

Leroy42 wrote: »

There is no way that taxis will not be allowed into the city centre. They are currently treated the same as other public transport (use of bus lanes etc)

No they're not -- for one, taxis are not allowed use contra-flow bus lanes

magicbastarder · 12-06-2015 8:25pm

also, theoretically taxis can't use bus lanes if they don't have a fare, can they?

rp · 12-06-2015 10:34pm

They can use the bike/bus lane if they are "on business", so they can get away with cruising without a fare. What the can't do is use it for commuting to and from work, but I don't imagine anyone has ever been pullled for it.

Muahahaha · 12-06-2015 10:45pm

markpb wrote: »

As an aside, Brown Thomas don't own the BT car park, they just license their name to the car park operators. They obviously have a vested interest in keeping it there but if it closes, it doesn't mean that they can expand the shop into it.

Yeah I'd heard that before but wasnt sure of it. I think there might have been some mention in the plans of relocating car parks to somewhere around Hueston, it wasnt very concrete but was mentioned. No doubt if DCC were to do a land swap with the car park operator for a park and ride connected to Hueston and the Luas then BTs would be all over the space at the back of their shop.

rp wrote: »

They can use the bike/bus lane if they are "on business", so they can get away with cruising without a fare. What the can't do is use it for commuting to and from work, but I don't imagine anyone has ever been pullled for it.

AFAIK taxi drivers always have an addressed envelope in their glove box so if ever they were stopped by Gardai for being passenger-less yet driving in a bus lane they can just show the envelope and say they're on a courier job to deliver it at the address. As a result Gardai tend not to stop them.

bilbot79 · 12-06-2015 10:45pm

People will save a lot of taxi fare by walking from one end of the city centre to the other instead of picking up the taxi in some stupid place. Taxi drivers shod just work one side of the city in an electric car

RainyDay · 13-06-2015 12:24am

Muahahaha wrote: »

AFAIK taxi drivers always have an addressed envelope in their glove box so if ever they were stopped by Gardai for being passenger-less yet driving in a bus lane they can just show the envelope and say they're on a courier job to deliver it at the address. As a result Gardai tend not to stop them.

Do Gardai really let them away with a mickey-mouse trick like this? Surely it would be fairly easy to look for evidence of the courier job on the taxi company system, or for the Gardai just to prosecute and let the driver show evidence in Court?

ted1 · 13-06-2015 1:02am

Taxi drivers are allowed to use bus lanes in the course of business , touting for fares allow this. So yes they can use bus lanes

roverrules · 13-06-2015 1:59am

RainyDay wrote: »

Do Gardai really let them away with a mickey-mouse trick like this? Surely it would be fairly easy to look for evidence of the courier job on the taxi company system, or for the Gardai just to prosecute and let the driver show evidence in Court?

I rememb r reading somewhere that if they are on a package delivery they can't use the bus lanes, I'll see if I can find it later

ROK ON · 13-06-2015 8:46am

What I like about the plan is the explicit attempt to create incentives and disincentives.
I work in the city centre in a building with a lot of car park spaces. Every so often I drive to work. It's not as difficult or as stressful as one would imagine if driving in early. I think that this is partly the reason that the roads are so conjested.
For short journeys society needs to create disincentives for certain transports and incentives for others. This will take years but is a step in right direction.
What else is needed:
Joined up public transport ticketing- if people are being asked to use more than one bus/Luas then to get from suburbs to town then that should cost one journey.
Secondly public transport should be cheap and private transport should be expensive.
Need more buses in more areas - the tailbacks on N7 and N4 every day are going into city- it will take a lot of buses and trains to replace these.
Commuter trai. Travel is expensive - it needs to be much more affordable. No point in asking folks to give up the car if it is going to cost them more.

A step in the right direction. We need to get to the point where the average person drives to city centre as an exception rather than an average.

roverrules · 13-06-2015 8:13pm

roverrules wrote: »

I rememb r reading somewhere that if they are on a package delivery they can't use the bus lanes, I'll see if I can find it later

Found this
https://www.nationaltransport.ie/taxi-and-bus-licensing/taxi/operating-an-spsv/bus-lanes/

A taxi can use a normal (with-flow) bus lane only while it is operating as an SPSV – carrying a passenger, on the way to pick up a pre-booked customer, or plying for hire. Taxis must not use bus lanes if they are not operating as an SPSV – for example, driving home at the end of a shift, travelling on personal business, or transporting only goods and not passengers.

magicbastarder · 13-06-2015 9:51pm

which basically rules out 2% of taxi business.
the funny thing is in dublin, at about the time i'm getting the last bus home, it seems slower to get down aungier street/georges street, than it does during rush hour; part of the problem is the deregulated taxi system which means anyone who wants to earn a couple of extra bob at the weekend can call themselves a taxi driver for a few hours a week, even if they've not a clue about the geography of dublin.

Tenzor07 · 13-06-2015 10:39pm

magicbastarder wrote: »

the funny thing is in dublin, at about the time i'm getting the last bus home, it seems slower to get down aungier street/georges street, than it does during rush hour; part of the problem is the deregulated taxi system which means anyone who wants to earn a couple of extra bob at the weekend can call themselves a taxi driver for a few hours a week, even if they've not a clue about the geography of dublin.

I agree, it's possible to walk from College green to Rathmines just by jumping on top of taxi's without your feet touching the ground at weekend nights..

Taxi's are the worst sort of public transport, low volume, usually just two people in the cab, are very expensive, and due to the sheer numbers of them driving around and parking in the small city centre streets clogging roads they should definitely be restricted from the college green area..

magicbastarder · 13-06-2015 10:42pm

that said, it looks like the new luas line expected to be announced is going to go past my door. which is great news, even if it's a compromise.

Car free Dublin City Centre?

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