The 8 String "Leviathan"

dpmasunder · 12-12-2004 9:24pm

Fanned frets acheive a different thing to the Feiten tuning system. I can only see a use for them for guitars with at least 7 strings. Basses 5. It's all about getting a longer string length moving for the bass notes, without increasing tension in the treble strings. There's no reason a fanned fret instrument can't also be a Feiten tuning instrument.

Karl Hungus · 12-12-2004 9:27pm

Hmm... BOTH the Feiten system, and Fanned Frets? Now there's an idea.

12-12-2004 9:55pm

what is this Feiten tuning?

feylya · 12-12-2004 9:58pm

It basically makes every fret equally out of tune as the next. The way the guitar is designed, when you have the open string and 12th fret in tune, other frets will be slightly out of tune.

Doctor J · 12-12-2004 10:00pm

Hmmmm, it hasn't been that big a deal for the last 500 years...

feylya · 12-12-2004 10:02pm

Meh, true that. Still, Satch and Vai can hear the difference and we all know how unskilled their ears are... Sure, everyone has that sort of hearing

Doctor J · 12-12-2004 10:05pm

Yeah, and once the sound engineer has smothered it in reverb at the gig it really comes into it's own

Do Floyd have a Feiten locking nut yet?

feylya · 12-12-2004 10:08pm

You don't know how the system works, do you?

Doctor J · 12-12-2004 10:10pm

Slight increments into the nut which change the length per string ever so slightly? TBH, saw something on it a while ago, thought of a 59 Les Paul into a Marshall stack, thought meh, I can live without Buzz

feylya · 12-12-2004 10:12pm

Nope, that's the Earvana compensated nut. The Buzz Feinten system moves the nut towards the bridge by a few cents.

Electric Guitar
................OPEN.....12th...(cents)
    E            00        00
    B           +01        00
    G           -02       +01
    D           -02       +01
    A           -02        00
    E           -02        00

Doctor J · 12-12-2004 10:18pm

As I said, I can live without Buzz. Sometimes folk can get anal about things like that and then chorus the **** / flange the **** / phase the **** out of their tone anyway. You should forego jumbo frets, get teeeny little ones that are just a breath away from it being fretless so you can't bend the string down between the frets and maybe some guardrails on either side of the string so it can't be bent sharp or flat towards the other strings. That way it'll always be just right in tune and in perfect harmony, which is what rock and roll is all about

feylya · 12-12-2004 10:19pm

Just get a robot to play. Or a monkey. Or a robot monkey

Doctor J · 12-12-2004 10:21pm

Just sell your guitar and get a midi rig and keyboard

feylya · 12-12-2004 10:22pm

Then I'd be turning into Mr_Angry... >_<

Doctor J · 12-12-2004 10:25pm

Ooooh cheap shot

feylya · 12-12-2004 10:27pm

I'd better not say any more. To the PMobile!

LGM Guitars · 12-12-2004 11:18pm

I think the biggest issue with the fanned frets intonation wise is that if you aren't deadly accurate when playing the strings, you are in effect changing the scale length you are intonated to. In other words, you need to be sure you are pushing the string straight down, not bending it as you push it down. This is most noticable in chords. On straight frets if you move the string back or forth across the fret the effect is pretty small, on the fanned frets it is potentially larger. With a guitar, particularly in the higher strings, the the tension / pitch relationship is much greater than on a bass string. Imagine playing with a slide, when the slide is directly over the fret the note is on pitch, if you are ahead of or behind the fret it's not, the fanned fret moves in the length of the string when you bend it. Not that you can't learn to play around this, but when chording it means you have to be more accurate. On a straight fret even though bending the string will put it out of tune, it's less noticable than if you bend it PLUS the fret is moving closer up towards the bridge. Your string is intonated based on the relationship between the open string and the octave (12th fret) If when doing intonation you bend the string, you are not getting an accurate intonation. Imagine now having a string bending, and a fret that is basically moving forwards and backwards on each string. When you bend a note, the fret moves away from or closer to your finger as you move across the board, this also by my way of thinking makes bending strings a little more complex, especially in the higher frets. I like doing 2 and 3 full step bends, on a fanned fret guitar, in the upper frets, this means that as you bend the string across the board, your finger must also move in between the frets because of the angle.

The Buzz Feiten system probably wouldn't work on a fanned fret 8 string due to the width of the neck and the width of the nut increasing as it is angled (the geometry of it would require a longer nut to span the board if it's angled than if it's straight across) Also, because the Feiten nuts are machines, it means it would also affect the string spacing if it was angled.

The Feiten system can be used with a floyd rose lock nut as well, I asked about that, as soon as I receive my training package I will talk more about how the system works, I just want to make sure I have a full understanding of it first.

Doctor J · 12-12-2004 11:21pm

Thanks Jeremy. Do you think the Feiten system makes that much of a difference?

Karl Hungus · 13-12-2004 12:20am

Hmm... Thanks very much.

Definetly something I should put more thought into now. Perhaps trying before I order fanned frets really must be done. And I'll be looking farward to hearing from you once you know more about the Feiten system. Definetly seems a more reasonable alternative at this stage.

dpmasunder · 13-12-2004 8:56am

I'd agree you may not want to order fanned frets at this stage.
What string guages/tuning do you use on standard guitar?
If you're into low tension you may have to go with an .008 on a 27" scale.
With standard tuning on the 25.5" scale 7 I use - 65, 52, 42, 30, 17, 13, 10.
Lately I've been tuning the treble b & e to c & f, so the interval between all strings is the same. I'm using 12 and 9 guages now. Got the idea when I was setting up a 6-string bass. Suddenly the whole guitar made more sense. Weird eh?
My point is that I don't think I could tune those strings higher on a 27" scale. Maybe an 8 would work but 8's break pretty easily so I'd prefer not.

Damn good point that LGM made there re. technique on fanned frets.

The most info I've found on the Feiten system is the patent application. You can read it on the US Patent Office website. Basically it is a two step method. First the nut is moved closer to the bridge. This is something luthiers have been doing for decades to improve intonation on the first couple of frets. The difference is Buzz has bothered to work out exactly how much closer to move it for various string tensions.
The next part is to intonate the guitar slightly off to make everything equally out of tune. Again he has various secret formulae for types and guages of string. The difference between normal tuned and Feiten tuned is slight but definitely noticable, at least to people with well trained ears. I'd bet, however, that the majority couldn't tell the difference.
It is still a worthwhile thing to do.
Just had a thought about fanned frets.
The string hits the nut on a standard fretboard like this :

|---
On a fanned fretboard it looks like this :

/---
Wonder if this has any effect on the open string vibration? Certainly would be something to factor in on Feiten tuning.

dpmasunder · 13-12-2004 9:03am

Jeremy, do you have to travel to Feiten headquarters? I noticed you said something about a training package.

LGM Guitars · 13-12-2004 8:08pm

dpmasunder wrote:

Jeremy, do you have to travel to Feiten headquarters? I noticed you said something about a training package.

No, for their "stage 1" retro course it's all done through the mail with a DVD and such, stage 2 you have to go there, but I'll be seeing them at NAMM in January as well so I might be able to do something there, but that's primarily for saddles on acoustic instruments which I don't deal with a significant amount.

Karl Hungus · 13-12-2004 10:34pm

dpmasunder wrote:

I'd agree you may not want to order fanned frets at this stage.
What string guages/tuning do you use on standard guitar?

I use 9 guages in standard E tuning.
And I wouldn't say that I'd not want to order fanned frets, just that the whole thing might need a lot more consideration altogether before I draw up definitive plans and hand over my dosh to Jeremy.

dpmasunder wrote:

If you're into low tension you may have to go with an .008 on a 27" scale.
With standard tuning on the 25.5" scale 7 I use - 65, 52, 42, 30, 17, 13, 10.
Lately I've been tuning the treble b & e to c & f, so the interval between all strings is the same. I'm using 12 and 9 guages now. Got the idea when I was setting up a 6-string bass. Suddenly the whole guitar made more sense. Weird eh?
My point is that I don't think I could tune those strings higher on a 27" scale. Maybe an 8 would work but 8's break pretty easily so I'd prefer not.

Damn good point that LGM made there re. technique on fanned frets.

The most info I've found on the Feiten system is the patent application. You can read it on the US Patent Office website. Basically it is a two step method. First the nut is moved closer to the bridge. This is something luthiers have been doing for decades to improve intonation on the first couple of frets. The difference is Buzz has bothered to work out exactly how much closer to move it for various string tensions.
The next part is to intonate the guitar slightly off to make everything equally out of tune. Again he has various secret formulae for types and guages of string. The difference between normal tuned and Feiten tuned is slight but definitely noticable, at least to people with well trained ears. I'd bet, however, that the majority couldn't tell the difference.
It is still a worthwhile thing to do.
Just had a thought about fanned frets.
The string hits the nut on a standard fretboard like this :
|---
On a fanned fretboard it looks like this :
/---
Wonder if this has any effect on the open string vibration? Certainly would be something to factor in on Feiten tuning.

I don't know if I'm really gone on the Feiten system either tbh, whereas the fanned frets really do seem to make a lot of sense to me, but in saying that, the problems Jeremy pointed out seem very clear also that a string bent even slightly while tuning could mess up the tuning and intonation.

Hmm... Maybe I just don't quite understand the Feiten system entirely just yet. The adjusted nut makes sense to me, but to intonate it slightly off? It kinda boggles the mind.

Hehehe, I guess there's still an awfull lot I'm just a complete newb about.

Anyway, it's certainly a lot to take into consideration.

Doctor J · 14-12-2004 12:52am

I think this thread has been enlightening for all of us

Karl Hungus · 14-12-2004 1:38am

Doctor J wrote:

I think this thread has been enlightening for all of us

Well I can't speak for anyone else, but my knowledge of musical tech has been increased 10 fold! Well maybe not that much, but a lot anyway. How were you enlightened, DocJ? I'd love to know, seeing as you seem easily one of the most enlightened among our ranks.

feylya · 14-12-2004 1:39am

There's definately been some discussion here that you wouldn't see every day!

Karl Hungus · 14-12-2004 1:42am

Well that's definetly very true. I don't know how many people would even entertain the idea of an 8 String at all.

Oeneus · 14-12-2004 2:35am

Karl Hungus wrote:

I've found some other nice examples of trans-black finishes here and here. Thoughts?

Edit:

Actually found some more excellent examples here and here.

So far, I think this is absolutely beautiful:

I think I'm really gone on the trans-black finish now.

Haha! Thats the Gibson Les paul model that I have! And yeah. I saw the finish and decided I totally had to have that one!

Karl Hungus · 14-12-2004 2:39am

Nice Oeneus. 'Tis a wonderfull finish, isn't it?

And tell me, what are your thoughts on the 8 String?

Oeneus · 14-12-2004 2:45am

Not too sure whether there would be much need to go lower than a Low-B. But I'm the type that is 100% up for experimentation. So I say go for it, if you can afford it.

But if I could afford a custom built guitar, I'd get a chrome plated, rounded-off Les Paul with a locking tremelo! With 6 strings!

Karl Hungus · 14-12-2004 3:04am

Yeah, it's definetly a LOT of low end, but I've definetly got idea of what to do with it. What do you think of all this talk about Fanned Frets, the Buzz Feiten system, and specifiic amps to cope with the extra low end?

Doctor J · 14-12-2004 9:31pm

Karl Hungus wrote:

Well I can't speak for anyone else, but my knowledge of musical tech has been increased 10 fold! Well maybe not that much, but a lot anyway. How were you enlightened, DocJ? I'd love to know, seeing as you seem easily one of the most enlightened among our ranks.

Well thanks for saying, but I'm more an enthusiast than enlightened. I just love the instrument and I'm fasinated by how it evolves technically and how people percieve it differently. For example, I was aware of piezo bridges but not in tremolos, after you suggested it I got to thinking about it and did a bit of research and, while it will never replace the magnetic pickup, it's still an interesting alternative, a different take on the same concept. Fanned frets and buzz feiten tuning were also something I had read about and investigated and, while I think I'll survive without either (just like active pickups

), they indicate how well the electric guitar pioneers of the 40's and 50's got it right, and also illustrate how the guitar is now adapted in small ways, rather than by great revolutions. Hearing how people think about the instrument and the options available to the discerning guitar buyer who's prepared to take a step forward, well it always colours how I see, and also play, guitar.

There is always scope for learning and re-evaluation

Great thread man.

dpmasunder · 15-12-2004 9:09am

Funny thing about active pickups - the radical, cutting edge, EMG-81 is 25 years old this year :eek:

The thing with low end, ummmmmm, gotta try and not confuse things....
OK, this is my opinion and my experience only, but I feel regardless of tuning, B, F#, whatever, the frequencies that are 'the guitar' are primarily mids. That's where the definition is and where the 'grind' is. So it's not necessarily the fundamentals of those low notes which hit hardest

The 15" I used really didn't give more bass, it cleared up the mids.
BTW the line6 gear through full range speakers doesn't die like real guitar speakers when you hit them with lows, they obviously haven't modeled the physical limitations of the speakers. Cool with me

Karl, roughly what 'style' are you interested in applying the 8-string to?
Influences? I'm curious.

I'm enjoying discussing this with opened minded people. Guitarists can be so bloody conservative. So much for rock'n'roll lol.

No, for their "stage 1" retro course it's all done through the mail with a DVD and such, stage 2 you have to go there, but I'll be seeing them at NAMM in January as well so I might be able to do something there, but that's primarily for saddles on acoustic instruments which I don't deal with a significant amount.

Ah, that's right. We make very few electrics, mainly acoustic, repairs maybe 50/50. I still don't see why I should travel 7500 miles to be told how to intonate an acoustic guitar saddle

Good luck in NAMM. You got a booth?

Karl Hungus · 16-12-2004 12:19am

Doctor J wrote:

Well thanks for saying, but I'm more an enthusiast than enlightened. I just love the instrument and I'm fasinated by how it evolves technically and how people percieve it differently. For example, I was aware of piezo bridges but not in tremolos, after you suggested it I got to thinking about it and did a bit of research and, while it will never replace the magnetic pickup, it's still an interesting alternative, a different take on the same concept. Fanned frets and buzz feiten tuning were also something I had read about and investigated and, while I think I'll survive without either (just like active pickups ), they indicate how well the electric guitar pioneers of the 40's and 50's got it right, and also illustrate how the guitar is now adapted in small ways, rather than by great revolutions. Hearing how people think about the instrument and the options available to the discerning guitar buyer who's prepared to take a step forward, well it always colours how I see, and also play, guitar.

There is always scope for learning and re-evaluation Great thread man.

Yeah, I really see what you mean, just looking into things like the fanned frets, piezo, Buzz Feiten, sustainers, amp sorts and all kinds of tech now with this thread, it's just phenominal how interesting it all is, and how much you can learn. Thanks, I love this thread too.

I'm seriously considering getting myself a 7 String in the mean time though. There still is a LOT I'd need to see about first, not to mention getting the money together, which would be problematic at best. If I was rich, I think you'd know what I'd run off and buy. Check the attachments man.

dpmasunder wrote:

BTW the line6 gear through full range speakers doesn't die like real guitar speakers when you hit them with lows, they obviously haven't modeled the physical limitations of the speakers. Cool with me

That's very interesting to know, so maybe line6 is worth a shot when I do eventually get this 8 String. Thanks.

dpmasunder wrote:

Karl, roughly what 'style' are you interested in applying the 8-string to?
Influences? I'm curious.

Jesus, I don't know where to begin really. I like a lot of bands like Emperor, Opeth, Enslaved, Death, Porcupine Tree, Burzum, My Dying Bride, Immortal, Arcturus, David Bowie, Metallica and Bjork, to name but a few.

So my music would probably be leaning quite towards Death Metal, but very progressive more than overly technical. The really low stuff would be kind of a drone, something slow. And I really want to have some fretless bass going on there too, if I ever get around to getting one. I even asked Jeremy if he'd be willing to do a 6 String fretless for me.

Hope that makes sense to you.

dpmasunder wrote:

I'm enjoying discussing this with opened minded people. Guitarists can be so bloody conservative. So much for rock'n'roll lol.

Yeah, thanks! I think it's true that guitarists can be conservative, but there's a lot of people out there who really don't explore the possibilities of the instrument to their fullest in the first place, so additional strings seems absurd to them. Not to mention the fact that a lot of people would be put of by 7 Strings simply because they're seen as a very 'nu-metal' thing. Ignorant ****ers, I'd say, but it's a sad truth.

But I'm glad everyone's enjoying the thread so much

dpmasunder · 16-12-2004 9:42am

Similar stuff to what I listen to

My Dying Bride, old Anathema etc., tons of Opeth, haven't listened to much black metal for a while, Nick Cave, lately I've been really getting into Ramzet and Necrophagist. And John Zorn is doing it for me too, check out his Naked City and Masada stuff if you haven't already. Gotta run to dinner, post later.

Doctor J · 16-12-2004 10:13am

7 string Stealth, very very nice

Ancient1 · 16-12-2004 10:29am

Even though Chuck never played 7 string, i think this particular Stealth would have gotten his attention

Doctor J · 16-12-2004 10:32am

He probably would have lost the trem though

Ancient1 · 16-12-2004 10:33am

Yeah, and one of his Stealths only had a single coil in the neck position - strange, IMO.

Doctor J · 16-12-2004 10:34am

Nah, if you're not gonna use it, lose it

Ancient1 · 16-12-2004 10:36am

Perfect simplicity

dpmasunder · 16-12-2004 10:41am

So, should I put a pic of my mutilated Ibanez Universe on this thread or the dicksize ego thread? I'll have to post a pic of the guitars I make at work to compensate for how shagged the pUniverse is.

Doctor J · 16-12-2004 10:42am

Slightly off topic but here's a fretless six string from Hot Wires Bass of Germany. Simplicity itself

feylya · 16-12-2004 10:44am

So it's either on or its not plugged in??

Ancient1 · 16-12-2004 10:45am

So, should I put a pic of my mutilated Ibanez Universe on this thread or the dicksize ego thread?

Definitely this one

Doctor J · 16-12-2004 10:45am

Yep, that's about the size of it

dpmasunder wrote:

So, should I put a pic of my mutilated Ibanez Universe on this thread or the dicksize ego thread? I'll have to post a pic of the guitars I make at work to compensate for how shagged the pUniverse is.

The dicksize thread for sure

dpmasunder · 16-12-2004 10:46am

To bad about the Fender style headstock requiring those crappy stringtrees.
Such a fussy bastard is I lol

feylya · 16-12-2004 10:47am

dpmasunder wrote:

To bad about the Fender style headstock requiring those crappy stringtrees.
Such a fussy bastard is I lol

You've never spoken with me...

dpmasunder · 16-12-2004 12:35pm

Pics attached -

first one is my pUniverse, currently up to it's 6th pickup (EMG81-7), 3rd pickguard, 2nd set of saddles, 2nd set of frets. It started as one of the black and green things. The DiMarzio runs through an EMG SPC to buffer and give a touch of mid boost. Finish is oiled then 'sunburst' with a blowtorch

Second and third pics are of the guitars I make at work. Just to prove I don't just make guitars look awful. I also make them purdy :rolleyes:

Ancient1 · 16-12-2004 12:39pm

It started as one of the black and green things.

What's it going to end up as?

The 8 String "Leviathan"

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