The 8 String "Leviathan"

feylya · 02-12-2004 8:30pm

Get a 7 string first. Really.

Karl Hungus · 02-12-2004 8:38pm

Bah... I don't know anymore.

feylya · 02-12-2004 8:39pm

Then you must think some more

Karl Hungus · 02-12-2004 8:50pm

Well, the whole reason I put this thread up in the first place is to make sure I'm 100% certain about what I wan't, and get advice on options and the like. At least it has generated a lot of thought, so I'm more knowledgable now than when I started it.

I'll still try and argue the case of the low F# with the good doctor and see what conclusions I can draw from there.

Another idea I had, which could be really very cool indeed, is getting progressively lighter fret wire as it goes up the neck. So lets from the 12th or 15th fret onwards we use medium fretwire, then maybe from the 18th or 20th, light fretwire. Is this a good idea, or would it **** up the intonation somewhat?

feylya · 02-12-2004 8:51pm

Absolutely no reason to do that. At all. I believe it has been done but it'll just make string bending harder.

Doctor J · 03-12-2004 1:17am

Not trying to be condescending, just trying to explain a potential problem in my eyes which, if you're spending two and a half grand on a guitar, I'd want to fully explore and be entirely comfortable with before I had to pay out. I appreciate I'm probably not doing a great job of the explanation. I'm not suggesting you'll switch to playing basslines, just that you'll be playing bass notes, bass frequencies, the bass register, through the same system as you'll be playing your high E (or high F# if you do a full bend on the 24th fret). There isn't a single speaker out there that can do that well. My concern stems from my sound engineering training and new found awareness of frequencies and what's involved in reproducing them cleanly. I just don't think a regular guitar amp would be able to accurately reproduce the low notes, principally beacuse a guitar amp (and speaker) has to be able to reproduce the full range of notes found on a guitar. To be able to reproduce the high notes and the very low notes is, in my opinion, too much for your average 12" speaker. Guitar speakers are usually thinner (cone) than bass speakers and therefore less keen on really low frequencies. Your guitar is going almost a full octave below what a normal guitar amp is expected to deal with. It could do it, sure, but there'd be a compromise in sound quality, no question. But you're looking to have a great guitar with no compromises. A guitar amp doesn't have the EQ to be properly able to clean out the poxy low frequencies which sound boxy and muddy and need to be dealt with. A bass amp doesn't have the finesse required to really shine in guitar frequencies. To me, it just looks like this will be an expensive exercise, way beyond the initial cost of the guitar. The 8 string to low F# has an enormous range which a single conventional amplifier just won't be able to make the best of. Sure, the microcube can play bass, but bear in mind you're not whacking it out at 300W. You'll most definitely need a crossover to separate the low frequencies and run them to their own amp. This amp will need to be more powerful then your guitar amp because there's more effort invovled in pumping out low frequencies. So you've a bass amp and cab, a guitar amp and cab, do you separate the signal before or after the effects? A distortion that works well on really low frequencies won't necessarily sound good on a normal guitar range. so buy two sets of effects? Then you've got to balance them and blend them and make them all work happily together. It just seems like way too much grief and effort for something that should be the light of your life. As I see it (and I'm probably being a little melodramatic, I admit) you're setting yourself up for a world of compromise, either your tone will suffer or you'll have an area on your guitar which you're reluctant to use. Either scenario is a bad thing for the guitar of your dreams. But as I said, talk to someone who has one, get their experience, all this is specualtion and quite possibly arse talk. I just know I wouldn't want to send a low F# through a 100W 4x10" at full whack unless I had a video camera pointing at the cab

As for the fret wire, I think the bigger frets need to be up the treble end. I'd even suggest a slight scallop from frets 20 to 24, it's where you have the least room to really dig in so why make it harder? Actually, I think the old Jems were scalloped like that?

Edit -> I'd be keen to hear Eoin Madsen's take on the F# thing, he knows this stuff better than I do.

Karl Hungus · 03-12-2004 11:08am

God help me if I ever tried to tune down to a low, low E.

No, you're not being condescending DoctorJ, you're helping my out quite a lot. I need the feedback, and your input is quite valueable.

Incidentally, I also signed up at www.extendedrangeguitar.com to see what their take on it is, and one of the moderators has ordered a F# 8 String from LGM, so I can see how he finds it. Perhaps even ask him if he would make a recording for me, so I can see exactly how it would sound in practical use. None of the users there seem to see any problems with playing those low frequencies through a decent amp, so it's really up in the air as concerning how serious an option it is, without having to do some insanely complicated amp-jiggery.

That's not to say that I'm not taking your points into consideration, because I am, and currently I'm also taking into consideration the option of a 7 String if the whole 8 malarky turns out to be too overly complicated. I'm thinking the 27" scale option that's available for the 7s on LGM would be worth taking, and perhaps the fanned frets also. I'm not making any definite decisions now though, and I'm still entertaining the 8 seriously, just that I'll wait untill I can hear what it sounds like. Maybe it'll sound like wet gick, maybe it'll sound absolutely phenominal, and I'll say "Hell yeah! Why was it even a question in the first place?"

So, if I still do get the 8 String, want to come to Galway and try it out sometime?

Doctor J · 03-12-2004 12:36pm

Hmmm... I'll probably have to visit the sister in law while I'm there...

Ahhh **** it, why not?

I'm looking at his purely from the technical side of it, I like the concept of extended range, hence the 6 bass, but I'm just weary of the capability of regular (and affordable) amplification. If it meant you had to set up some sort of customised amp and cab, and then lug that around every time you wanted to play the guitar, it'd sour the whole experience of the guitar itself. I still think the idea of the high A would give you many of the notes you were going to get with 29 frets except you'll actualy be able to play them, not just tap them, so don't abandon the idea of the 8 string just yet

Real Extended range

Karl Hungus · 03-12-2004 3:08pm

I'm really not too sure I'd bother with a high A, because I can't see that much use for it bar some widdley soloing. I won't write off the notion yet, I would like to look into all possibilities, but I just can't see myself getting any use out of a high A. A low F# on the other hand, think of some fast Death Metal, with slow crushing lows of something like Isis. And add in that fretless bass I'm thinking of getting, my god it could be phenominally unique!

You're perfectly right though, an over-complicated amp setup would more than likely sour the experience and practicallity of it. Maybe a drop A could be more than enough extra low end for what I wan't to do? Probably the only band using the 8 strings at the moment are Meshuggah, and that kind of style certainly isn't what I've got in mind. I'll have to see if I can hear some of the 8 string stuff this fellow on the extended range forum can get out of his once he gets it.

Speaking of the extra low end, what do you think of the Mark IV 'Wide Version' which supposedly has a "Broader enclosure for more bass punch"? Sounds exactly the thing for me.

It's the exact same price as the regular Mark IV combo, and seeing as I'm just about to start a new job (yay!) something like that wouldn't be too out of the question at some stage next year. Do you think it's actually got anything up on the regular Mark IV, and if so, assuming I do go for the F# 8 String, do you think it would be suitable, without any overly complicated adjustments to be made?

Oh, and that is some crazy bass!

Doctor J · 03-12-2004 3:46pm

I think drop A is plenty low. Even if you were to detune to regular D, have the low A (and a high G perhaps?) - low A is about as low as a bass can go and still be audible (and have a chance of being audible in a venue over a regular PA) - never mind a home stereo

You still have an octave between the bass and the guitar (think God Of Emptiness, the extra whoooomf the bass gives when it's played an octave lower). Once the bass and guitar are playing the same notes and you don't have the option of the bass going lower, then it makes the bass redundant and you sound like a detuned And Justice For All.

As for the amp, 1x12", seems to use bass reflex for enhanced (but not clear) bottom end, but it doesn't mean actual bass notes. It's just a bigger cab designed to acoustically enhance a warmer low end. I don't think 85 watts is enough for bass frequencies, nor is a 12" speaker suitable for bass and high frequencies. An 85 watt bass amp would be foook all use with a drummer, whereas a 70 watt guitar amo would be ample. As I said, bass cones are usually a bit denser, they need to be for pushing out low frequencines. They don't move as fast as thinner speakers, like guitar cones which need to be able to put out more high frequencies than a bass cone. I would say it might be wise to get in contact with Mesa and tell them what you want to do - ie F# at 46Hz - and see what they say. Maybe a denser 12" and a tweeter (getting into keyboard amp territory) might be a solution.

LGM Guitars · 03-12-2004 7:21pm

Hi guys, I haven't read all of the posts in this thread but I had an spare moment (rare these days) so I thought I'd chime in.

First off, the Tuning of F# to E was simply chosen as that is what the majority of people interested in an 8 string wanted. Having said that, if you want to go B to A, That can be done, but not on the 27" scale, you would be breaking the high A string constantly. I can build the 8 with a 25.5" scale if you want to go B to A.
Fanned frets, not something I do. The patent is owned by Novak and the licensing and royalty fee's are something that need to be contended with. For multi million dollar companies like Conklin this isn't a real problem and it may be something I look into in the future, but for the time being the fanned frets aren't in the cards. It also means using different bridges which my dealer agreements may or may not allow, I would have to find out.

As for the maple cap, unless you are wanting to do a thick maple cap the tone won't change much. The mahogany is going to be a HUGE thick sound, The maple cap should be at least 1/2" to change the sound much at all. If you were to use the EMG pickups it would be pointless as the pre-amp in the EMG's is what colors the tone, the wood will simply add sustain. However, since you're talking the SD's wood is a variable. If you want to go with a solid color you may consider a different wood all together than mahogany/maple. In all honesty, I chose the alder because it's a nice balanced wood, the 8 strings go from such low bass frequency to regular frequency that the alder is overall a very equal wood.
In terms of the range of the Low F#, yes, it is low, but most all guitar amps will handle it still without any real issues. Myself personally don't see the Low F# as just there for chugging on, same with the B on a 7 string, if you just use it for that you're missing out on the best parts of the extra strings. New Chord voicings open up with the lower strings, scale runs become bigger with less movement, 8 string sweeps are possible, basically you just increase your tonal range anywhere on the fretboard. Imagine being able to do a full 3 octave sweep without having to use more than 4 frets!

Any wood can certainly be used. Solid maple could be used if you are worried about crispness of the lower notes, it will be bright on the high end though but you can always EQ your amp to balance that a little nicer.

The 5 way switch used with the SD pickups does give coil tapping. In the first position it gives you full bridge humbucker, in 2nd position it gives you the rear coil of the bridge hum, in 3rd position it gives you the outside coils of both pickups, in 4th position you get the rear coil of the neck humbucker, and in 5th position you get the full neck humbucker.

Hope this helps with some of the questions, concerns etc. They do take some getting used to, but what a wild guitar to play!

Glad to see you guys dig the guitars so much, just for kicks, here is a pick of the latest 6 string leviathan completed, quilted maple top in a "plasma burst" (blood red to a red kandied black burst) with reverse headstock

http://pics.lgmguitars.com/pics/leviathans/redfinished4.jpg

Jeremy

mp3guy · 03-12-2004 11:53pm

so, what kinda sound would you get from an 8 string?

D!ve^Bomb! · 04-12-2004 12:16am

i haven't completely checked the site but is there any demos of the guitars so we could have a listen?

Karl Hungus · 04-12-2004 3:47pm

A fellow over at the extended range guitar forum made a very good point about string guage and pickups having a very big effect on the sound, and that the low F# wouldn't nessicerally be in bass frequencies as such. Any good high wattage cab should be more than enough, apparently.

Definetly encouraging on the side of the pro low F#!

Thoughts Doctor J?

LGM Guitars wrote:

Fanned frets, not something I do. The patent is owned by Novak and the licensing and royalty fee's are something that need to be contended with. For multi million dollar companies like Conklin this isn't a real problem and it may be something I look into in the future, but for the time being the fanned frets aren't in the cards. It also means using different bridges which my dealer agreements may or may not allow, I would have to find out.

Thanks for putting my curiostity to rest. I hope you look into it and that it works out for you. Still though, does Hipshot not do bridges to accomidate for fanned frets? I thought they would.

LGM Guitars wrote:

As for the maple cap, unless you are wanting to do a thick maple cap the tone won't change much. The mahogany is going to be a HUGE thick sound, The maple cap should be at least 1/2" to change the sound much at all. If you were to use the EMG pickups it would be pointless as the pre-amp in the EMG's is what colors the tone, the wood will simply add sustain. However, since you're talking the SD's wood is a variable. If you want to go with a solid color you may consider a different wood all together than mahogany/maple. In all honesty, I chose the alder because it's a nice balanced wood, the 8 strings go from such low bass frequency to regular frequency that the alder is overall a very equal wood.

No, I think I will definetly be going for the trans-black finish on the quilt maple. I really do want to get the rich, warm tones that the mahogany will provide also. But thanks for your advice none the less.

LGM Guitars wrote:

In terms of the range of the Low F#, yes, it is low, but most all guitar amps will handle it still without any real issues. Myself personally don't see the Low F# as just there for chugging on, same with the B on a 7 string, if you just use it for that you're missing out on the best parts of the extra strings. New Chord voicings open up with the lower strings, scale runs become bigger with less movement, 8 string sweeps are possible, basically you just increase your tonal range anywhere on the fretboard. Imagine being able to do a full 3 octave sweep without having to use more than 4 frets!

*drool*

Full sweeps across 8 strings would be amazing altogether.

LGM Guitars wrote:

The 5 way switch used with the SD pickups does give coil tapping. In the first position it gives you full bridge humbucker, in 2nd position it gives you the rear coil of the bridge hum, in 3rd position it gives you the outside coils of both pickups, in 4th position you get the rear coil of the neck humbucker, and in 5th position you get the full neck humbucker.

Hmm... No option for both full humbuckers, perhaps a different wiring, or even a 6 way switch would be an idea?

LGM Guitars wrote:

Hope this helps with some of the questions, concerns etc. They do take some getting used to, but what a wild guitar to play!

Glad to see you guys dig the guitars so much, just for kicks, here is a pick of the latest 6 string leviathan completed, quilted maple top in a "plasma burst" (blood red to a red kandied black burst) with reverse headstock

http://pics.lgmguitars.com/pics/leviathans/redfinished4.jpg

Jeremy

Thanks very much for the feedback, Jeremy, it has been a very big help altogether. You're quite an artist altogether, but I'm not too gone on the reversed headstock on the new Leviathan there, it just doesn't seem right, especially seeing as yours is probably one of the only designs I've seen that I thought looked excellent with the downward pointing headstock.

Doctor J · 04-12-2004 6:35pm

Karl Hungus wrote:

A fellow over at the extended range guitar forum made a very good point about string guage and pickups having a very big effect on the sound, and that the low F# wouldn't nessicerally be in bass frequencies as such. Any good high wattage cab should be more than enough, apparently.

Definetly encouraging on the side of the pro low F#!
Thoughts Doctor J?

The fundamental of the note is F# at 42Hz, which is the same F# at 42Hz you find at the second fret of a regularily tuned bass. It won't have the low end of 34" scale bass, but it'll still be the same 42Hz. If you have a piano or keyboard at your disposal, play that F# to see what I mean. It's a bass note, I don't mean bass guitar note, I mean bass as in bass, baritone, tenor, alto, etc

This might explain it better

It's a 42Hz note. It's a note found on bass guitars, it's in the home of bass drums, it's almost a full octave below standard guitar pitch. String gauge won't make a difference apart from the tone of the note and how loose/tight it feels. If it's F# it vibrates 42 times per second, that has nothing to do with the pickups either. It's your call man, but for me it just falls to far into the grey area which has traditionally separated guitar from bass and the existing hardware which is tailored for one or the other and not both. Normal guitar speakers just aren't designed for that low a frequency.

Karl Hungus · 04-12-2004 6:56pm

Doctor J wrote:

The fundamental of the note is F# at 42Hz, which is the same F# at 42Hz you find at the second fret of a regularily tuned bass. It won't have the low end of 34" scale bass, but it'll still be the same 42Hz. If you have a piano or keyboard at your disposal, play that F# to see what I mean. It's a bass note, I don't mean bass guitar note, I mean bass as in bass, baritone, tenor, alto, etc

This might explain it better

No, that's explained perfectly well there, and it's certainly more clear in my mind now. Somehow I did kinda get the idea of a bass guitar note. I'm getting a far more realistic idea now of what this will sound like.

Doctor J wrote:

It's a 42Hz note. It's a note found on bass guitars, it's in the home of bass drums, it's almost a full octave below standard guitar pitch. String gauge won't make a difference apart from the tone of the note and how loose/tight it feels. If it's F# it vibrates 42 times per second, that has nothing to do with the pickups either. It's your call man, but for me it just falls to far into the grey area which has traditionally separated guitar from bass and the existing hardware which is tailored for one or the other and not both. Normal guitar speakers just aren't designed for that low a frequency.

Hmm... You can't hold it against me to still be contemplating the 8 String seriously, can you? I don't think that the notion of it being in a grey area bothers me at all really (Aside from the possible amp-jiggery, that is) in the same sense as extra high-end on a bass would be something I like.

I downloaded a demo from the admin of the extended range guitar forum, who has a 9 string guitar, which I think is tuned F# - A (But I could of course be wrong) and it doesn't sound too bad at all. Check it out here and tell me what you think, DocJ? Does sound a wee bit buzzy on the very low end, but it's just a demo, so that can be forgiven.

It's definetly nice to hear that it's not complete mud though.

Doctor J · 04-12-2004 7:34pm

Karl Hungus wrote:

Hmm... You can't hold it against me to still be contemplating the 8 String seriously, can you?

Not at all. I'd just advise a lot of research and total inner peace before you place the order, that's all

I'm not at a download friendly connection at the moment, I'll check that mp3 out on Monday. I'm very curious as to what it sounds like.

LGM Guitars · 04-12-2004 7:36pm

I'll try to record an MP3 of the 8 string this weekend guys, the low F# takes you down into that bass range for sure, but it's not the damaging heavy smashing tone you may think it is

nadir · 04-12-2004 7:40pm

awesome stuff for sure.

waht about an oil and wax finish??? really show off the wood. I know you want it black, but id go for the wax finish myself.

lo LGM

. i must order myself one sometime too, i just got a job so it also appears i may be in the money soon. hehe
I still wanna make my own fretless bass though.

Karl Hungus · 04-12-2004 7:46pm

Doc, I'm really going to be carefull about the guitar before I say anything definite. You've been an invaluable help so far anyway! Also, you ever listen to Isis?

LGM Guitars wrote:

I'll try to record an MP3 of the 8 string this weekend guys, the low F# takes you down into that bass range for sure, but it's not the damaging heavy smashing tone you may think it is

Excellent stuff, Jeremy! Much appreciated!

Doctor J · 04-12-2004 7:48pm

No, that's the chap who used to be in Nile? In Their Darkened Shrines is about as close as I've got.

You get that Cynic album yet?

Karl Hungus · 04-12-2004 7:53pm

No, didn't get it yet. I've still not even got around to getting the new Mastodon either, which thankfully is on offer in town, so I'll nab it first I think, and then see if I can get my hands on Cynic, and definetly some more Isis.

Not sure if 'tis anyone from Nile tbh, but I could be wrong altogether.

Karl Hungus · 05-12-2004 10:14pm

nadir wrote:

waht about an oil and wax finish??? really show off the wood. I know you want it black, but id go for the wax finish myself.

Naw, while I love the fact that Jeremy seemingly doesn't laquer the necks, the trans-black over quilted maple is just secks absolute! I'd have it no other way.

Numina · 06-12-2004 8:23pm

36 frets: add $75, Get this you mentaller

feylya · 06-12-2004 8:27pm

He's already discussed this. He'd rather have two pickups than have 12 frets that he can only use for tapping.

Karl Hungus · 07-12-2004 1:10am

Yeah, that's it in a nutshell.

LGM Guitars · 08-12-2004 8:45pm

Sorry I haven't gotten an MP3 up yet, I just haven't had the time to do any playing at all. I also realized I haven't got any type of recording program on this computer yet either, it's a new computer and I haven't installed anything. I will try to get something up as soon as I can though. I'm still getting lost on the 8 string necks though LOL!!!!

Karl Hungus · 09-12-2004 12:20am

There's no hurry, Jeremy. I doubt I'll be placing an order first thing in the morning, so relax. I still want to try and convince you to do fanned frets for me, so any idea on how much you'd have to pay novax guitars, and how much it would add onto my bill?

Giblet · 09-12-2004 7:27pm

Man, have you even played an 8-String? This seems like a big step, It will feel like a completely different instrument, especially with the fanned frets. You probably will have a mental breakdown doing the transition for a six!

Karl Hungus · 09-12-2004 7:45pm

I'm well definetly to put in a lot of practice to get used to it. No doubt I'll just go *Boggle* when I first get it in my hands, but just some of the thoughts of what I'll be able to do just get me all excited. It'll definetly be worth the adjustment.

What are your thoughts on the extra range, Giblet? I'd imagine you'd be quite opinionated on the subject.

Giblet · 09-12-2004 8:51pm

I think it's cool, but spending that much money on something I wouldn't know I liked is crazy to me

The fanned frets definatly make me go "what?!" I don't think this would be suited for chord playing, especially when trying to add in a lower root and what have you. I'd be interested to hear some scale and appreggio runs, I'd say you could go on forever. I know I'd have fun messing around on a board that big, playing some nice low bass then getting some screeching highs.

You definatly need the right amp for this.

Should practice some crazy jazz on it.

Karl Hungus · 09-12-2004 8:59pm

Yeah, I can imagine playing chords would be quite an adjustment on the auld fanned frets. Though I think I'd have to learn some Jazz before I can play anything crazy just yet.

LGM Guitars · 10-12-2004 8:15pm

The 8 string neck is surprisingly comfortable. I didn't think I'd personally like them myself but because it's to wide to really even wrap my thumb over, it forces you to be smoother, faster, and my hand does not cramp up at all. It takes some time learning to look at the board and judge where the strings are, but it's not to bad. The strangest part is playing with an open F# for chording, you have to relearn where all the root notes are all of a sudden. But I am loving being able to play a full 3 octave scale in one position

Now if only my fingers would co-operate in doing some 8 string sweeps LOL!!!

dpmasunder · 11-12-2004 7:03am

Hi, just found this thread. I'm in the initial stages of planning an 8-string myself. I have a couple of other projects to finish first though, so it may be a while before I get started. I might have some useful input if you're interested.

re: Novax fanned frets, Novax only requires a $75 licence fee if the guitar is going to be sold within the USA. He really only patented fanned frets to stop the big boys getting there first and stopping him from using his own invention. Pretty good for us smalltime luthiers, eh? (me included). Obviously if LGM doesn't want to do it, then that's cool too. Expect it to be a fairly expensive option in any case as the bridge/bridges will probably have to be custom machined and the fret slotting is more time consuming as well. Allparts stocks individual bridges by ABM but I have no idea what they are like. I have ordered ABM stuff before and wasn't impressed tbh.

re: amps. I've been playing 7-string for a long time now, metal mostly. These days I don't play much, and often at night so I use a POD. Previously I had a Boogie TriAxis, which ran through a custom power amp (sort of like an EL34 100/100) with a built in crossover. The higher stuff went into a Marshall 4 x 12", the lows through a 1 x 15".
It was overkill but achieved what I wanted. It cleared up the sound of the 12"s by removing frequencies they couldn't handle and gave more defined bass. The crossover was switchable but the highs going through the 15" as well sounded pretty harsh.

The EMG option will give more defined bass notes imho, it is a totally different sound than passive, they seem to be pickups you either love or hate. I'm an EMG boy myself

The Leviathan is a cool looking guitar. Are you in Canada LGM? I'm in Australia. I work for Ochoteco guitars in Brisbane. No website yet I'm afraid

http://www.allparts.com/categories.php?cat_id=402&cat_name=FOR%20NON-TREMOLO%20GUITARS

http://www.novaxguitars.com/Pages/frame_Licensing.html

Regards,

Dan

Karl Hungus · 12-12-2004 3:34am

Thanks for your comments, dpmasunder, that's been very helpfull altogether. Especially this part here:

Instruments built outside of the U.S. do not require licensing unless they are sold in the U.S.

Nice to know really.
So if you're willing at some stage Jeremy, it just comes down to the bridge and the extra work that would go into it, price wise. From the novax site, the bridge for the 8 string is $280. Not sure how much more that would be compared to the hipshot, or if hipshot do a bridge for fanned frets, but it's good to have a price.

feylya · 12-12-2004 3:49am

AFAIK, it's possible to do the nut for a fanned fret system instead of the bridge. TBH, you could pop down the butchers, get a long bone and make your own novax fanned fret nut. That said, it's more difficult to play that way.

Karl Hungus · 12-12-2004 3:55am

I was under the impression you'd need both a bridge and nut for fanned frets? Besides, I'm hardly a skilled luthier, now am I? A PC I can build, but a guitar is a whole different peice of tech altogether.

feylya · 12-12-2004 3:57am

Eh, afaik, normally the nut is straight and the bridge is offset. Basically the lowest string is set at a 27" scale and the highest string is at 25.5" or 24.75" so the frets are at a slant, greatest at the first fret and near straight at the 24 or 36 fret (depending how many you want).

It's quite simple in theory. I think

Karl Hungus · 12-12-2004 3:59am

If the nut is straight, then surely the first fret would be straight also, and the greatest slant is up at the 24th?

So if that would be the case, it would be very cool indeed for chords and the like.

feylya · 12-12-2004 4:25am

Yes, but I was talking as if the nut was slanted and the bridge was straight. It works both ways but it's harder to play simple chords with the nut slanted.

Karl Hungus · 12-12-2004 4:32am

Right you are so. Wouldn't having both bridge and nut slanted be best though? Could get very complicated where the frets reach their most angeled otherwise.

feylya · 12-12-2004 4:35am

It's gonna be complicated with the frets slanted anyway!

Karl Hungus · 12-12-2004 4:42am

Well obviously, but for overall playablity I imagine having the frets straightest near the center of the board, and then fan out equally in each direction seems to make more sense than having a very sharp angle near the nut, or at the 24th fret. I mean, a fret at a 45 degree (or whatever the sharpest would be) angle would be a nightmare, methinks. I could be wrong.

feylya · 12-12-2004 4:50am

Well, if you were going to be playing simplistic chords near the nuts (simplistic ie E, C, D, G, A, B, etc) then a straight nut would be better. But if you were going to the fret ****, a straight 12th fret or bridge would make more sense. You have to decide what you'd be playing now and in the future.

dpmasunder · 12-12-2004 5:38am

Actually both the nut and bridge are slanted. There is generally one fret placed perpendicular to the centreline of the neck. Usually the twelfth or ninth fret. I'm going to use the ninth for the 7-string neck which is my next project, that will let me guage how much I like fanned frets and help decide what to do on the 8-string.
My main concern with playability and fanned frets is how the offset bridge will affect palm mutes. We'll see......
Oh, btw the 7 neck is going to be fretted for quarter tones.
Hopefully I'll like it. Could turn out a complete waste of time lol.

LGM Guitars · 12-12-2004 9:37am

The nut and bridge must be angled, if you were to keep the bridge straight your first fret and nut would have such an extreme angle it would be unplayable. Just picture this, if you had a 27" scale, and a 25.5" scale, and you wanted to keep the bridge straight, that would now mean that your first fret would have to be 1.5" further down the neck on the Low string than on the high string, you're talking a HUGE angle, trying to play that would be near impossible I think.
Because my business is set up with billing and PO boxes in the US as well as Canada, I still have to pay the $75 to Novak for doing the fanned frets regardless of whether I sell it in the US or not.
One of the reasons I have not really considered the fanned frets is then I would really need to offer it as an option in which case it would be done more. I've played a few fanned fret guitars and have yet to see any real value to them, on a bass it seems to make more sense, but on guitar, I'm not sold. I know 2 people with Novak guitars, and the sad part is, neither guitar will intonate properly, so much for the fanned frets improving intonation and string tension.
The offset string saddles are awful to use, they are a pain to deal with in many respects, they also end up making the string spacing wider which is somewhat uncomfortable.
However, as with all my custom guitars, if it is something you absolutely HAVE to have, I will do it, it's just an added cost. Accurately cutting the fret slots on a fanned fret neck is the biggest pain in the butt, fretting also becomes a challenge as the radius of the caul would need to change for each fret, as a result, every single fret must be hammered rather than pressed, this isn't a problem, it's just more time consuming.
In about a weeks' time though I will be a licensed Buzz Feiten installer, so all the guitars will be available with the Buzz Feiten tuning system.

dpmasunder · 12-12-2004 11:22am

Interesting LGM. I haven't played a fanned fret guitar here yet. I can see problems with the Novax CH 8-string design. What specific intonation problems were you seeing? Feel free to email me if you don't mind discussing it further. The Buzz Feiten system I like, however to become an authorized installer they expect me to travel all the way to the States to do their little training thing. Maybe some day I'll have other reasons to go that may make such a thing viable, but for the time being........

Karl Hungus · 12-12-2004 5:23pm

Hmm... That's definetly something to think about.
Although, I've never liked the style of the novax guitars themselves, so perhaps its more to do with what Conklin has done with the patent that's gotten the noteriety of the fanned fret system? God knows I'd never want one of those Charlie Hunter 8 strings, horrible looking thing altogether. Still, it's definetly something to look into more, and I'd like to know more about the problems you found with the fanned frets.

Still, I'm glad to see that the fanned frets is something you're willing to do, and I'm also glad to see that you'll be offering the Buzz Feiten system, which is definetly a possible alternative.

Thanks again for the feedback.

feylya · 12-12-2004 5:25pm

I'd take the Buzz Feinten tuning system over the fanned frets any day.

Karl Hungus · 12-12-2004 5:33pm

Anything is a possiblity at this stage, feylya.

I still like the idea of the fanned frets though, it seems to make a lot of sense. Although I will of course have to find some way of trying out a guitar with them to really get the best view on them, but chances of just finding somewhere/someone in Ireland who has such a guitar is very slim.

The 8 String "Leviathan"

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