How do you judge an alcoholic?

mickrock · 14-10-2012 5:24am

Only the person himself/herself can say whether or not he/she is addicted.

If a man continues to drink against his better judgement, he is addicted.

Addiction is a state of ambivalence, where the person wants to carry on drinking as much as they like, yet also feels they should quit/cut back because of the negative consequences. If there's no conflict in the person's mind, there's no addiction.

Luxie · 14-10-2012 5:24am

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

With pity, it's an awful condition, you have to remember that there's often a contributory factor which leads to alcoholism. Think about it, zero self esteem self hatred, hoping to die soon. It takes over, the alcohol consumes everything and it's your only friend. It's easy to scoff at it if you don't fully understand the grip alcohol has on sufferers.

The hoping to die soon is what did for my mother. She got her wish four and a half months ago.

Chuck Stone · 14-10-2012 5:34am

bradknowell wrote: »

Try inject heroin once so

I choose not to.

nagirrac · 14-10-2012 5:46am

Sparklygirl wrote: »

I think in some cases it is a case of genetics, some people are predisposed to alcoholism. I have a family member who is an alcoholic, I still drink alcohol but I am careful about how much and how often. I think it would be easy to fall into the trap of drinking wine each night as I know lots of people who do this. I think people think it is ok because it is wine as opposed to beer/spirits. I think it is a slippery slope.

It is hard not to judge an alcoholic, I used to get very annoyed at a friend of mine who is. I have to remind myself that it is an addiction and that if circumstances were different it could be me.

Nothing wrong with a glass of wine per night, its binge drinking that does the harm as you correctly point out but theres a difference between one or two drinks a night and having 10 in one night.

Scanlas The 2nd · 14-10-2012 7:36am

whirlpool wrote: »

Scanlas The 2nd wrote: »

So you are an alcoholic if you need or are dependent on it.

What of a person needs alcohol to chat up the opposite sex? They clearly depend in it so by the above definition they are alcoholics.

No. There is a difference between being dependent on something to simply get you through the day, and being dependent on something to chat up a girl at the bar.

Meeting the opposite sex is an important fundamental part of life, if you need drugs to get through it one might call that a dependency.

Extinction · 14-10-2012 8:57am

maiden wrote: »

It wasnt intended to be a smart comment, everyone is entitled to their pain, but if a child is abused or neglected because of it then its a whole different ball game imo

I live with these kids in the here and now, not in the what ifs!

IMO no child is abused because of alcoholism, any person who is abusive to a child is a violent person.Alcoholism doesn't make a person violent and in that situation I pity the children who have had violence in their lives.

Neglect is a different thing, an alcoholic is unable in most cases to look after themselves let alone children, the illness infects your brain to the point where your every waking moment and often your dreams are consumed with the thought of securing your next drink, the compulsion to drink when you are an alcoholic is so strong that it over rides every thought process in your mind and neglecting yourself and others around you is inevitable.

Although an alcoholic can be violent so can somebody who is not an alcoholic, as I already said alcoholism doesn't make a person violent. Alcoholism has many symptoms but being violent or being a waster are not symptoms, they are symptoms of something else worse than alcoholism.

In answer to the OP's question, I don't judge an alcoholic because I am one. I haven't drank in a long time but I am still an alcoholic, I can only have sympathy for someone who still in the grips of alcoholism. I do however judge harshly anyone who drinks and becomes violent as a result of their own stupidity, these people have a problem with excessive drinking, they don't have a problem with alcoholism.

scamalert · 14-10-2012 10:54am

Depends if the person who is addicted is aggressive,and basically a scum then yes i hate these scavengers and wish them the worst.But theres a type of people who are total alcoholics and addicts but manage to keep their jobs or at least unction in manner that doesnt interfere with others life,and for those people i feel sorry,but most people keep a blind eye on them instead.

cometogether · 14-10-2012 11:09am

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I choose not to.

Yeah but I'm not sure you can really compare alcohol and heroin in that sense, only a tiny chunk of the population take heroin, but at the same time only a tiny proportion of the (adult) population drink alcohol. The fact that alcohol is so socially acceptable and condoned in this country means that most alcoholics will have drank at first due to the fact that its the norm and societal pressures, whereas a heroin user actually has to go outside of the law and seek it out.

mattjack · 14-10-2012 11:32am

maiden wrote: »

It wasnt intended to be a smart comment, everyone is entitled to their pain, but if a child is abused or neglected because of it then its a whole different ball game imo

I live with these kids in the here and now, not in the what ifs!

I'm just wondering Maiden , how much of the child's history are you told about before you foster ?

I know there are different categories of foster care .. four or five I think.

I know from my own employment about 30 to 40 % of kids in foster care are from a family background of addiction, but generally attempts are made to put kids into family foster care first i.e. another relative takes the children.

I think the figure in foster care in Ireland is about 6000,between 1800 and 2400 from addiction problem families.

J Mysterio · 14-10-2012 11:49am

PizzamanIRL wrote: »

J Mysterio wrote: »

Thinly veiled i'm an alcoholic thread.

You're the reason that a thread was created to get 'thinly veiled' banned.

No, that predated my comment.

token101 · 14-10-2012 5:14pm

Chuck Stone wrote: »

A lot of people can't get past an hour awake without a cup of tea or coffee.

Are they tea-aholics coffee-aholics?

I reckon when people say that they're generally exaggerating, but if it's genuine then yeah they're caffeine addicts! If you're dependant on something to just get through the day, you're addicted to it. In the case of alcohol that makes you an alcoholic, in my opinion anyway. But the term 'alcoholic' is very subjective really, socially anyway.

MJ23 · 14-10-2012 5:23pm

Buying 3 cans of Dutch Gold with a fistfull of coppers.

McChubbin · 14-10-2012 5:25pm

Harshly.

Seanchai · 14-10-2012 7:05pm

ForeverYoung90 wrote: »

How do you judge an alcoholic?

With compassion, but not as much compassion as I have for his/her spouse who heroically lives through a life of hope and despair and shows incredible love, kindness and compassion towards them in public but who you know is in huge pain and loneliness at home.

And don't even mention the poor, poor children.

tayto lover · 14-10-2012 7:20pm

Seanchai wrote: »

With compassion, but not as much compassion as I have for his/her spouse who heroically lives through a life of hope and despair and shows incredible love, kindness and compassion towards them in public but who you know is in huge pain and loneliness at home.

And don't even mention the poor, poor children.

Good post. If anyone thinks living with an alcoholic is bad they should know what it's like to live with a gambler. I knew a man years ago who owned nearly a whole street of property. It was left to him. In a matter of years he ended up emptying the ashtrays and sweeping up a bookie office based in one of the premises he once owned. He lost millions.

Odysseus · 14-10-2012 7:44pm

We have a range of psychometric tests in work to jugde or gauge a person's dependancy on alcohol or other drugs. However, I never bother with them people who don't have a problem with alcohol don't end up in my office talking about their drinking.

14-10-2012 7:46pm

Stereomaniac wrote: »

It is a disease. I was in treatment and I learned that. It's the only disease in the world that will convince you you don't have it.

that brought to mind a saying I heard in AA.

' Im not glad I am an alcoholic, but Im glad I know I am one'

14-10-2012 7:47pm

At the top of this page there's a Soc section, in that section there's a Non Drinkers Group forum.

For anyone who's genuinely interested in the question posed in this thread, then I suggest that you might find some answers over there.

Although some of the threads there might seem a bit self-congratulatory, that's the way of these things.
In my humble, there are some good, well-meaning people over there with experience in these matters.
They don't offer solutions, but most of them do lend a sympathetic ear.

If you think you're in real trouble, consult a doctor.

Ellis Dee · 14-10-2012 8:02pm

I believe the German artist and poet Wilhelm Busch summed it up pretty well when he wrote:

"Es ist ein Brauch von alters her,
Wer Sorgen hat, hat auch Likör.
Doch wer zufrieden und vergnügt,
Sieht auch zu, daß er welchen kriegt."

Rough translation:

It's an ancient custom that those who have problems also have booze.
However, those who are satisfied and contented also make sure to get some.:)

Unfortunately, he doesn't tell us how to recognise an alcoholic. And it is a big tragedy for our society that few - least of all the alcoholics themselves - recognise the problem until it is likely too late.:cool:

Odysseus · 14-10-2012 8:19pm

Stereomaniac wrote: »

It is a disease. I was in treatment and I learned that. It's the only disease in the world that will convince you you don't have it.

Having worked in various treatment and rehab facilities, the disease model is that a model. The is no ultimate answer as to what is addiction, the disease model is one of many. #

However, it must be noted that fellowships like AA and NA have helped thousands of people world wide, but it is not the only treatment.

Stereomaniac · 15-10-2012 12:22am

Why are you saying this to me when I know it already? I have been in treatment for alcohol and drug addiction and have been one of the lucky ones to come out clean and sober (so far, 1 year).

Queen-Mise · 15-10-2012 2:37am

Stinicker wrote: »

So basically alcoholics are wasters in my view and should be treated with contempt and not pity. Everybody has choices in life and being an alcoholic is just the result of bad choice making.

That point isn't really applicable with alcohol. When a teenager picks up their first drink at 14, 16, 18... That first drink doesn't come with the gift of reading the future and seeing where these drinks may bring them. A line is tipped over with alcohol - but where is the line. I have seen alcoholics of 16 years of age and women in their 50s, who drank socially for 30 years, then hit empty nest syndrome (maybe) and fall over the line into alcoholism.

Alcoholism is a very strange one, unlike something like heroin/cocaine etc. You stick a needle in your vein or smoke heroin and you get addicted after 2/3 goes, again very similar with smoking crack or snorting coke.
They are different types of alcoholics, for example: 1) the alcoholic from the first drink... a ticking time bomb; 2) moderate drinking and then after some major trauma/death/relationship breakup etc, start drinking more and go over the alcoholic line; 3) crossover addictions from drugs, eating, gambling (a relative of mine did it with another addiction, went to treatment, stayed clean from that one but then developed a drinking problem). Not all alcoholics are the same.

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Ultimately addiction is a choice. The substance does not make you take it.

You have obviously never seen someone in the horrors/DTs or in drug withdrawal. If rat poison would stop the pain - they would take it. There isn't another thought in the head except getting more & how to get money to get more. There is a saying comparing heroin and crack - the heroin addict will rob you to get money; the crack addict will kill you to get money. That is the drug not the person.

Luxie wrote: »

The hoping to die soon is what did for my mother. She got her wish four and a half months ago.

Really sorry to hear that. My condolences.

mathepac · 15-10-2012 4:53am

Nettle wrote: »

its more commonly known as weirnick korsafic syndrome ..

Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome

Just to clear up a few mis-conceptions:

Alcoholism (or chemical dependency) is regarded as a primary illness, it is not a consequence of another illness, condition or trauma
There's a number of "types" of alcoholism. As already mentioned, there's the "functioning" or "functional" and the stereotypical homeless "down-and-out" alcoholic and others.
People who stop drinking periodically, for days, months or even years but who drink again may be alcohol dependent, their behaviour when drinking will usually give clear indications.
Chronic heavy drinkers are usually advised not to go "cold turkey" as they may need medical assistance to stop drinking. The myth of the heroin addict going through the horrors and being close to death when stopping is just that, a myth. Heavy drinkers die from unassisted / unsupervised alcohol withdrawal just as they can from alcohol overdoses.
Every week, 25 people in Ireland die from alcohol-related illnesses. This figure does not include people killed in suicides, drunken fights or car-crashes
Every day of the year, alcohol kills twice as many people in Ireland as all other drugs combined
If alcohol was not already legal in Ireland there is powerful statistical and other evidence to have it banned
Our relationship with alcohol in Ireland is at a very dangerous level and shows no sign of diminishing, simply because measures to reduce consumption would cost too many vested interests too much money
The vendors of this deadly substance have their own pressure group in the Senate. Can you imagine heroin-dealers getting a place at the heart of our government simply because they are heroin dealers?

Kirby · 15-10-2012 8:23am

Somebody who does it every day, is defensive about discussing it, and still does it regardless of the consequences.

I treat alcoholism the same as any other addiction because fundamentally, it is the same. We are all addicted to something. It's human nature. Some addictions are more overtly destructive than others.

suicide_circus · 15-10-2012 8:37am

Its a fücking slippery slope and it's oh so very easy to let it get on top of you when things aren't going right in your life, i'm sure many of you can relate to that. So much potential lost to the bottle. Sad. Fücking tragic even.

Odysseus · 15-10-2012 8:50am

Stereomaniac wrote: »

Why are you saying this to me when I know it already? I have been in treatment for alcohol and drug addiction and have been one of the lucky ones to come out clean and sober (so far, 1 year).

Because you said it was a disease, that is only one opinion. The are many people working in the field who argue it is not.

Though congrats on your recovery.

Discostuy · 15-10-2012 9:17am

I'd go with Allan Carrs viewpoint that an alcoholic is simply a person who is not in control of their drinking.

This could be your down and out homeless drunk who needs it to escape reality everyday, or it could be your regular Joe who can't go a weekend without needing to have a few pints or cans "to relax".

Normal "functioning" alcoholics are everywhere. They just use a vast array of excuses to mask the problem -
"its helps me unwind...it gives me courage...I earned it after a hard weeks work...".

It's like smokers who "only smoke when they drink, so aren't really a smoker". It's a feel good excuse.

A lot of regular, 9-5 working people who drink would struggle to go 2 months without a drink.

15-10-2012 9:58am

mathepac wrote: »

Wernicke-Korsakoff syndrome

Just to clear up a few mis-conceptions:
....... .........
The vendors of this deadly substance have their own pressure group in the Senate. Can you imagine heroin-dealers getting a place at the heart of our government simply because they are heroin dealers?

Good post.
Though I think your final 'bullet point' above, is borderline zealous.
Some people drive recklessly, endangering their own lives and other peoples.
Some people have killed other people through their inability to drive correctly.
Some people have driven all their lives without causing death or harm to anyone, they're called responsible drivers.

Would you accuse car salesmen of being 'Vendors of deadly contraptions'?
By the way, I don't drive.

Stereomaniac · 15-10-2012 10:43am

Odysseus wrote: »

Because you said it was a disease, that is only one opinion. The are many people working in the field who argue it is not.

Though congrats on your recovery.

In my mind, I have a disease. Not a disease like AIDS or cancer. More a disease like the way depression is a disease, being conceitful is, or being aggressive is a disease. Anyone who views alcoholics with contempt shouldn't be around an alcoholic then. As people who DO have control over their destinies, somewhat, I'd like to think that nobody in their right mind would stay in a situation that troubles them. The worst part of anything is when you are in a situation you don't want to be in and you're unable to leave.

mathepac · 15-10-2012 1:01pm

9959 wrote: »

...
Would you accuse car salesmen of being 'Vendors of deadly contraptions'?
By the way, I don't drive.

Perhaps it's a soubriquet that might be appropriate if cars killed, maimed and injured as many people as alcohol does.

The main difference though is that the number of deaths from motor accidents is reducing year on year even with more cars and drivers on the roads travelling at higher speeds than ever (new motorways etc.) I'm not suggesting that the level of deaths and injuries is acceptable by any manner or means, just that is trend is a downward one.

The opposite is true of alcohol. The more drinkers we have consuming ever increasing quantities, the more deaths and alcohol related illnesses we have. There is a direct causal relationship between increased consumption and the adverse consequences suffered by both the drinking and the abstinent populations. The very useful summary stats linked to by a poster earlier are evidence of the increasing damage alcohol causes.

Maybe there's a lesson the health chiefs can learn from Uncle Gaybo and the RSA / NRA / Gardai, etc, but at the moment the Dept. of Health and the HSE seem powerless to change the appalling toll alcohol consumption is levying on our country.

IMHO of course.

How do you judge an alcoholic?

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