Seen & Found

slowburner · 22-01-2017 11:13pm

Coles wrote: »

Yeah, I suspected that might be the case. It is quite brittle, but I was going by the theory that anything within the peat layer had to be the result of human activity.

The presence of something within a peat layer does not necessarily mean that it ended up in that context by human activity!

Thargor · 22-01-2017 11:18pm

I have zero expertise but I walk the trails in Wicklow a lot and tbh there are millions of those lying around on the paths.

Coles · 22-01-2017 11:44pm

slowburner wrote: »

The presence of something within a peat layer does not necessarily mean that it ended up in that context by human activity!

Really? What other ways can a stone end up in the peat layer of a blanket bog apart from human activity? Serious question. I can't think of any*.

*Ignoring the possibility of burrowing animals, a falling tree, or erosion.

Coles · 22-01-2017 11:46pm

Thargor wrote: »

I have zero expertise but I walk the trails in Wicklow a lot and tbh there are millions of those lying around on the paths.

Sure, but if I picked it off the path I wouldn't have bothered carrying it home!

mocmo · 23-01-2017 11:18am

Coles wrote: »

Really? What other ways can a stone end up in the peat layer of a blanket bog apart from human activity? Serious question. I can't think of any*.

Bogs are fairly unstable environments, with lots of internal movement caused by fluctuating water levels, bog bursts in particular and can displace tons of peat quite rapidly. The position of the stone may be due to action of that type or it may have been disturbed by peat cutting. If by 'peat hag' you mean an old abandoned turf bank, it could well have been cast up during turf cutting.

arctictree · 28-01-2017 7:49pm

Anyone know what this is?

Found near a very old farmhouse.

slowburner · 28-01-2017 9:56pm

arctictree wrote: »

Anyone know what this is?

Found near a very old farmhouse.

It's a wall hook. They were hammered into the wall, or built into mortar joints to hang things.

Fries-With-That · 29-01-2017 7:48pm

arctictree wrote: »

Anyone know what this is?

Found near a very old farmhouse.

That particular type of wall hook was used to hang cast iron chutes on homes and outbuildings.

arctictree · 29-01-2017 10:22pm

Fries-With-That wrote: »

That particular type of wall hook was used to hang cast iron chutes on homes and outbuildings.

Thanks - what's a cast iron chute?

Thargor · 29-01-2017 10:57pm

arctictree wrote: »

Thanks - what's a cast iron chute?

Carries rainwater away from the roof so it doesnt soak into the house. Ive mostly seen them holding up shelves in ancient sheds and barns.

Odelay · 29-01-2017 11:43pm

It's fair to say the man that made it has no toothache now, as the saying goes.

Hotei · 31-01-2017 2:15pm

Hi

An acquaintance with an interest in history has, what we think, is a brooch that was found by his mother (in the 1970s) when cleaning out the grate from a turf fire. It has what appears to be a common double motif from the 17th C onwards, namely, an Acanthus leaf and Bear's Paw. There may have been an iron pin on the back judging by some rust, but it appears to be a copper alloy in the main. It measures approximately 60mm. in length (not including the attached five link rings) and approx. 30mm. wide.

Any thoughts?

Coles · 31-01-2017 11:54pm

A bit of reading shows that the name of the plant Acanthus is derived from 'brank-ursine', Latin for bear's claw. This might explain the combination for the brooch.

Hotei · 01-02-2017 12:59am

Coles wrote: »

A bit of reading shows that the name of the plant Acanthus is derived from 'brank-ursine', Latin for bear's claw. This might explain the combination for the brooch.

Thanks Coles.
Yeah, that's something I've already discovered in my research so far.
The acanthus and animal paw combination seems to be quite an early motif - it appears in the classical period in Greece and Rome more often as a lion's paw with acanthus leaf. Acanthus apparently symbolises enduring life and immortality. The leaf decoration on this brooch appears to be in the rococo style, which could date it to some time in the 18th century. It would also appear to have been made by way of the repoussé and chasing methods (rather than by casting), which was also a popular way of creating jewellery in the 18th century. I'm suggesting a mid to late 18th century date for the brooch, but am unsure. I'd be more than happy to hear other opinions.
It's really intriguing how it ended up in a sod of turf though!

* By the way, this post is a collaborative effort between myself and another Archaeology forum member who first brought this artefact to my attention, so I can't take all the credit for the research done so far!

Coles · 01-02-2017 10:14am

The chain is an interesting aspect of it in trying to figure out how it might have been used. Obviously 60mm is quite small so it's definitely not robust enough to be from a horse's halter or bit. I wonder could it be a military brooch? Maybe from the Yeomanry or something like that?

Great find.

Hotei · 01-02-2017 10:48am

Coles wrote: »

The chain is an interesting aspect of it in trying to figure out how it might have been used. Obviously 60mm is quite small so it's definitely not robust enough to be from a horse's halter or bit. I wonder could it be a military brooch? Maybe from the Yeomanry or something like that?

Great find.

We were just wondering if the chain was an original part of the piece? It may have been a later addition after the pin on the back broke, perhaps? If it was an original attachment, why solder it to the claw end?
When I first saw the back of it, I immediately assumed it was a brooch, but I could be wrong. The bridle/halter attachment may not be a bad guess either, if it was merely for decoration.
So many possibilities!

cfuserkildare · 01-02-2017 12:33pm

capethingy.jpgIf memory serves me correctly,
Would there not be 2 of these broach type items, 1 at each end of a chain, both with a short pin to hold a cape or overcoat together?

Like the attachment?

baaba maal · 01-02-2017 9:14pm

I,ll declare my interest as the other researcher! I would wonder if bridle pieces would be a bit bigger than this object? That is a lot of detail for something that wold be seen from a distance....
The (double) fastener idea looks interesting too!!

Fries-With-That · 03-02-2017 6:45pm

I've been looking at this and winding out my neck here a little, the two loops type arrangement on the back look typical to me of the way a badge might be mounted on material.

The two loops would be pushed through two holes in the material, and a felt or leather backing washer (usually a large square) would be placed inside the garment/hat/tunic or whatever and a split pin pushed through both loops to hold the item in place.

The idea behind this was the badge could be removed for cleaning (think copper/brass alloys).

Now looking at it 6cm appears to be very large for a hat for a human head, so you have to consider something else, I can't get the idea out of my head that it was used for ornamentation on a circus animals fancy headdress, elephant, horse or on a cloak for a bear.

Its a nice find, my googling can't find anything in a military line where a bear claw/paw was used.

Any hints on where it was found ?

Tiercel Dave · 03-02-2017 7:42pm

Fries-With-That wrote: »

Now looking at it 60cm.......

It's only 60mm long, mentioned in 1st post, so you might still be right........

Fries-With-That · 04-02-2017 9:25am

Tiercel Dave wrote: »

It's only 60mm long, mentioned in 1st post, so you might still be right........

lol, Thanks for that, 60cm would be huge, I meant 6cm.

baaba maal · 06-02-2017 8:57pm

Fries-With-That wrote: »

I've been looking at this and winding out my neck here a little, the two loops type arrangement on the back look typical to me of the way a badge might be mounted on material.

The two loops would be pushed through two holes in the material, and a felt or leather backing washer (usually a large square) would be placed inside the garment/hat/tunic or whatever and a split pin pushed through both loops to hold the item in place.

The idea behind this was the badge could be removed for cleaning (think copper/brass alloys).

Now looking at it 6cm appears to be very large for a hat for a human head, so you have to consider something else, I can't get the idea out of my head that it was used for ornamentation on a circus animals fancy headdress, elephant, horse or on a cloak for a bear.

Its a nice find, my googling can't find anything in a military line where a bear claw/paw was used.

Any hints on where it was found ?

It was found by the mother of the person who owns it- she was cleaning the grate from the fire and there it was in the ashes- the speculation is that it was lost on the bog a number of years ago and brought in inadvertently (I know it was common to start fires with the light-brown turf found at the top of the bog- this would fit in with a relatively late deposition date).
It is a very elaborate piece to end up in the grate of a fire, but that is part of the mystery/enjoyment of it!

Hotei · 30-04-2017 2:05pm

Found in plough soil. 40mm. long.

GY A1 · 30-04-2017 2:32pm

What's that hotei

Hotei · 30-04-2017 2:59pm

GY A1 wrote: »

What's that hotei

A prehistoric (Mesolithic - Neolithic - Bronze age) man or woman would have struck this core using a hammerstone (by direct or indirect percussion) producing flakes which could then be used to create tools such as blades and scrapers. It originally would have been a riverine or beach flint pebble (cortex still visible on this piece).

Aelfric · 01-05-2017 10:30am

I think that's a bit fanciful Hotei. Your flake would be around 2cm long, OK for a Microlith, I agree, but the Flint pebble is pretty poor quality, especially at the distal end. I'm sure there were better pebbles to be had.

Hotei · 01-05-2017 6:15pm

Aelfric wrote: »

I think that's a bit fanciful Hotei. Your flake would be around 2cm long, OK for a Microlith, I agree, but the Flint pebble is pretty poor quality, especially at the distal end. I'm sure there were better pebbles to be had.

I'm confused! You don't think it's a core, or you don't think it has been worked at all? Most of the cores I've found on this site have been less than 30mm. long, and well worked out. These cores have had similar sized flakes removed. The late Peter Woodman examined some of the cores and believed one to be almost certainly Early-Mesolithic in date. Another Mesolithic scholar suggested the flint was of poor quality too.

Mountainsandh · 17-09-2017 12:40am

My daughter picked up a stone today at the beach that I think looks interesting, could be completely natural but I thought I'd post it here for opinions anyway, thanks. I've stuck lots of pics onto my Flickr stream so just click on this one for more (of the same stone) if interested.

[IMG][/img]

hook (1 of 1)-5 by Anne L., on Flickr

edit : the pics are all stickered with "Hook" but they've nothing to do with it, the stone was found on the Cunnigear, Dungarvan, co Waterford.

Wibbs · 17-09-2017 1:17pm

Might be a hammer stone/re finisher? The numerous dimples at one end could be as a result of that. I have a couple of Neandertal examples that look kinda similar though they're not weathered so hard to say. Gun to my head I'd probably think "natural".

That neck of the woods, the sunny south east seems to have some nice quality flint/chert washing up on beaches. Years ago I was on a weekend away down there and found a few nice nodules that when knapped were of nice enough quality and predictable enough in fracture. Now not like the buttery smooth French stuff, but pretty good. Maybe an underwater source? The local geology doesn't really lend itself to decent flint sources.

Mountainsandh · 17-09-2017 2:49pm

Wibbs wrote: »

Might be a hammer stone/re finisher? The numerous dimples at one end could be as a result of that. I have a couple of Neandertal examples that look kinda similar though they're not weathered so hard to say. Gun to my head I'd probably think "natural".

That neck of the woods, the sunny south east seems to have some nice quality flint/chert washing up on beaches. Years ago I was on a weekend away down there and found a few nice nodules that when knapped were of nice enough quality and predictable enough in fracture. Now not like the buttery smooth French stuff, but pretty good. Maybe an underwater source? The local geology doesn't really lend itself to decent flint sources.

There's a good few bits of flint/chert alright, mostly tiny nodules though. I found a really really dark inside flint (?) pebble yesterday, it's black glass sort of but tiny. I think it's the ice sheets retreating that brought along stuff and also scraped some source somewhere on the sea floor, if I recall right (Reading the Irish Landscape, author : some great guy I don't remember the name of).
This stone is very weathered alright, and it looks like something that someone started working and then gave up, to my very uneducated eye, or just spoil, or nothing. But I don't have a clue.

edit : actually, talking about whatever quality it may be, there is an area where the black marks are that is a bit rough, I wonder would that make it worthless after all for someone trying to get something out of it.

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