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Retailers and the Xmas Period.

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13

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    #62
    Corruptedmorals
    Registered Users Posts: 4,194 ✭✭✭Corruptedmorals


    Del2005 wrote: »

    Could be, personally I think it's a great marketing scam I also think Christmas is one too. Why is TV an essential service? There are loads of people working over Christmas in non essential services, why do shop workers think they are something special?

    Contracts change and the people would have had to agree to the change, so they can't really complain about working on a day they've agreed to work.

    We couldn't eat meat on Friday till a few years ago, yet most people don't seem too worried about loosing that tradition.

    If you don't want to work around Christmas move to an industry that doesn't open over Christmas, I think you'll find there aren't that many around.

    No, the high street does not offer any essential or emergency services. I don't remember saying that I put retail staff on a pedestal- and I dont have an issue with working over Christmas or New Years. Merely Stephens Day, the unneccessary new fad. However this thread is only about retail staff, so that is what I am going to discuss. The point is, this is a new fad and is unfair. People would just shop on the 27th instead- no harm done.


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    #63
    Sunny Dayz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,308 ✭✭✭Sunny Dayz


    Shops are open new years day?? My mum has told me that my sister is working at 10am on new years day!


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    #64
    borderlinemeath
    Registered Users Posts: 5,339 ✭✭✭borderlinemeath


    Del2005 wrote: »
    why do shop workers think they are something special?

    They're human, they work exceptionally long and exhausting shifts over Christmas so consumers can gorge on food, drink, presents, clothes. An extra day off isn't too much to ask for. Most retail workers work at least one day every weekend all year round while your average worker takes their weekends off for granted.
    Contracts change and the people would have had to agree to the change, so they can't really complain about working on a day they've agreed to work.

    That's not quite how it happens. You're told by head office the store is opening and that the managers and staff need to be rostered in. Nobody these days dares to say no for fear of losing their jobs.
    We couldn't eat meat on Friday till a few years ago, yet most people don't seem too worried about loosing that tradition.

    People observing religious fasting traditions is a give or take thing. If somebody wanted to eat meat they always had a choice. Retail workers aren't being given a choice. It's work, or somebody else will take your job.
    If you don't want to work around Christmas move to an industry that doesn't open over Christmas, I think you'll find there aren't that many around.

    Plenty of companies don't open over Christmas. Not many companies have a sales surge such as retailers traditionally achieve prior to and post Christmas day. But up until very recently St Stephens day was another day of rest particularly for workers that had worked long and hard pre Christmas. When I worked in retail I never complained about having to go back to work on the 27th for the sales rush as I knew it came with the job. I just feel so bad for the staff that now have to get through Christmas day knowing they won't even have a lie in the following day with the vultures back out in force. :mad:


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    #65
    Corruptedmorals
    Registered Users Posts: 4,194 ✭✭✭Corruptedmorals


    Sunny Dayz wrote: »
    Shops are open new years day?? My mum has told me that my sister is working at 10am on new years day!

    Not all, it is still limited. I worked New Years Day 2008, there was only 2 other shops open on the Southside. It cost something like 15k to open the shopping centre for us, the wage bill was huge and the shop was dead. Even though the amount of shops opening and footfall has gone up since then, they have never opened on it since. I don't feel as strongly about it as Stephens Day because it isn't the day after Christmas and therefore doesn't ruin that day- especially for staff going home down the country etc.


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    #66
    barney 20v
    Registered Users Posts: 979 ✭✭✭barney 20v


    borderlinemeath wrote: »

    They're human, they work exceptionally long and exhausting shifts over Christmas so consumers can gorge on food, drink, presents, clothes. An extra day off isn't too much to ask for. Most retail workers work at least one day every weekend all year round while your average worker takes their weekends off for granted.



    That's not quite how it happens. You're told by head office the store is opening and that the managers and staff need to be rostered in. Nobody these days dares to say no for fear of losing their jobs.



    People observing religious fasting traditions is a give or take thing. If somebody wanted to eat meat they always had a choice. Retail workers aren't being given a choice. It's work, or somebody else will take your job.



    Plenty of companies don't open over Christmas. Not many companies have a sales surge such as retailers traditionally achieve prior to and post Christmas day. But up until very recently St Stephens day was another day of rest particularly for workers that had worked long and hard pre Christmas. When I worked in retail I never complained about having to go back to work on the 27th for the sales rush as I knew it came with the job. I just feel so bad for the staff that now have to get through Christmas day knowing they won't even have a lie in the following day with the vultures back out in force. :mad:

    Vultures? And people wonder why the Irish retail sector is on its knees.
    Over priced pre-christmas goods lead to shoppers seeking value.
    Dec 26th is just another day tbh


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    #67
    borderlinemeath
    Registered Users Posts: 5,339 ✭✭✭borderlinemeath


    barney 20v wrote: »
    Vultures? And people wonder why the Irish retail sector is on its knees.
    Over priced pre-christmas goods lead to shoppers seeking value.
    Dec 26th is just another day tbh


    Yes, Vultures. There's a certain breed of sale shopper that queue at 6am for crap that has been stored in a warehouse for the past 6 months. I've watched them for years, picking over stuff that you wouldn't bother wiping the floor in, but just because it's got a half price ticket on it, it represents value to them. And you're partly right, some of the stuff is overpriced goods. Particularly in Next, where the stuff is the same quality as penneys but 4 times the price. They do have a fantastic marketing department that manage to create such hype about crap. But then the marketing department get to sleep in on the 26th of course...

    To you perhaps it's just another day. To retail workers it was the only respite during the mayhem that is Christmas.


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    #68
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    Del2005 wrote: »
    Yet you still want the ESB and TV on Christmas day, why aren't they allowed time off. There are plenty of other industries that are open 24/7 do you want them to be forced to close? Or what about the ESB workers, or any other industry, who had to work on Christmas day can they not buy stuff they need on St Stephens day? The world has moved on from 9-5 jobs yet some people haven't.

    They are set up to be open 24/7, with a unionised work force. Retail is people on temp contracts being forced to work beyond the Irish and European limits.
    Del2005 wrote: »
    Yet you still want the ESB and TV on Christmas day, why aren't they It's completely about religion. If it wasn't why don't they close on Monday-Saturday? Historical things can change, we don't burn witches or butcher whole civilisations, so why do we still hang onto outdated religious days?

    I've no idea why the Christians co-opted the pagan holiday and called it Christmas - that said for most of us non-religious types we tend to fall in line with an use it as a time to see family and friends as everyone else is.

    Del2005 wrote: »
    Yet you still want the ESB and TV on Christmas day, why aren't they The irony of this is the the OP is complaining about not respecting Christmas yet don't respect it themselves, Xmas what's that?

    I don't really see it as ironic. I call it Xmas as firstly I'm dyslexic an prone to spelling errors but also as I don't believe the son of God was born in a barn on the 25th of December. Many religions celebrate this time of year as everyone else is. If Xmas was about religion rather than family and friends we wouldn't have any issues with retail as it's unlikely we'd feel the need to go mad on presents. We'd all be in church celebrating the baby jebus... or the pagan holiday that went before it, Mythris is it?

    I dont have an issue with sales or anything like that - it's great marketing. What I'm getting at is why do it on the 26th? The only argument so far has been the money would be spent else where. While I can see some money going to online retailers surely thats an argument to open the 25th rather than the 26th. Sorry there was also the tourism argument which was another reaosnable suggestion.


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    #69
    beaner88
    Site Banned Posts: 154 ✭✭beaner88


    Sunny Dayz wrote: »
    But it's unfair on the workers and their families. My sister has to work st. Stephens day in Dublin. She will spend tomorrow traveling home, enjoy Christmas day at home, then someone is going to have to drive her back to Dublin early on Stephens morning as there probably won't be any buses or trains. For us, st stephens day was always for going around visiting friends and relations.

    Get a different job if it means that much. The joys of free market capitalism.


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    #70
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    beaner88 wrote: »
    Get a different job if it means that much. The joys of free market capitalism.

    It doesn't work like that. The situation is artificially created and generally breaches employment law. Many people who are working in these roles would be doing so as there isn't anything else available and don't want to continue sitting there on the dole. The employers exploit the situation - and needlessly so it seems.

    You'd be pretty dubm to think that the employment world is a free market - if it was there would be no employment protection.


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    #71
    Sunny Dayz
    Registered Users Posts: 5,308 ✭✭✭Sunny Dayz


    beaner88 wrote: »

    Get a different job if it means that much. The joys of free market capitalism.

    Because it's so easy to walk into another job when you are a college student after spending 3 years trying to get a part time job.
    I think you need a dose of reality.


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    #72
    the groutch
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,096 ✭✭✭✭the groutch


    still don't understand why so many people are getting their feathers up over something so trivial.
    if you don't want to shop on St Stephen's/New Years Day, then don't.
    Simples.


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    #73
    keithclancy
    Registered Users Posts: 9,222 ✭✭✭keithclancy


    Del2005 wrote: »
    It's completely about religion. If it wasn't why don't they close on Monday-Saturday? Historical things can change, we don't burn witches or butcher whole civilisations, so why do we still hang onto outdated religious days?

    Because thats the way it is.
    Everything has an origin why change it.

    Bit much comparing setting people on fire to a public holiday.

    Besides, if they stopped Christmas day because the government decided to quit the baby jesus thing, then you'd be working too.


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    #74
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    the groutch wrote: »
    still don't understand why so many people are getting their feathers up over something so trivial.
    if you don't want to shop on St Stephen's/New Years Day, then don't.
    Simples.

    Look up. That's the point flying straight over your head :D

    Seriously though you are missing the point here - its that of one open all have to open.


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    #75
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    Not a chance I'd survive with anything like a 6750M. That's probably okay for medium res 1080p gaming - but then so is a PS3.

    Everything turned up to 11 and 1440p is the only way to go.


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    #76
    barney 20v
    Registered Users Posts: 979 ✭✭✭barney 20v


    Procrastastudy wrote: »
    Not a chance I'd survive with anything like a 6750M. That's probably okay for medium res 1080p gaming - but then so is a PS3.

    Everything turned up to 11 and 1440p is the only way to go.
    Ironic, missing the point try missing the forum....


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    #77
    The Stoles
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭The Stoles


    Consumerism, merely another God!! christmas day can now be called Sales' day eve...i would not be surprised if retailers will be allowed to open on christmas day whithin few years..


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    #78
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    The Stoles wrote: »
    Consumerism, merely another God!! christmas day can now be called Sales' day eve...i would not be surprised if retailers will be allowed to open on christmas day whithin few years..

    And they should be allowed to if they want. Besides the fact that not everyone is catholic and/or celebrates Christmas, but if a shop wants to open 24/7 it should be their own choice to do so. If they feel theres enough market for kettles at 4am then they can choose to open at 4 if they want.


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    #79
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    And they should be allowed to if they want. Besides the fact that not everyone is catholic and/or celebrates Christmas, but if a shop wants to open 24/7 it should be their own choice to do so. If they feel theres enough market for kettles at 4am then they can choose to open at 4 if they want.
    Provided that staff are not coerced (directly or indirectly) to work on that day.


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    #80
    The Stoles
    Registered Users Posts: 124 ✭✭The Stoles


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    And they should be allowed to if they want. Besides the fact that not everyone is catholic and/or celebrates Christmas, but if a shop wants to open 24/7 it should be their own choice to do so. If they feel theres enough market for kettles at 4am then they can choose to open at 4 if they want.

    howd you feel if you had to work at 4am just because your boss feels theres enough market for kettles?


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    #81
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    P. Breathnach wrote: »
    Provided that staff are not coerced (directly or indirectly) to work on that day.

    +1 This is the point I think many are missing. If we had a 24/7 culture in retail it actually wouldn't be so bad as there would be staff to cover it a point I made when someone introduced ESB and alike into the conversation.

    Retail staff work the run up to Xmas - this is no different from many jobs, accountants have their busty periods as I'm sure many professions do. The issue is that in retail that busy period keeps getting extended for no discernible good reason. The only issues raised so far are tourism and on-line retailers. In retail you already have to take you holiday when no one else wants to. That's fine - but even in a work culture like the US there are universally accepted holidays. I really don't believe that a magic man from the sky had a baby 2012 years ago - some do some don't however convention is that we now all have a day off on that day and spend it with family. If it bugs you so much its a catholic holiday bear in mind it was a pagan festival long before the Christians co-opted it.

    It's blatantly obvious working in retail that many people are there because they can't think of anything else to do. I don't really want to drag Sunday trading into this but it used to be a favourite remark of mine that if shops closed on Sunday there would be far more families wandering around the various museums, out in parks and generally spending time together rather than walking around like Zombies in Argos. I realise we don't live in that time anymore but surely for two days a year we can do without shops?


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    #82
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    Procrastastudy wrote: »
    I realise we don't live in that time anymore but surely for two days a year we can do without shops?

    I can do without shopping many days or the year and do. Just like I can do without drink. I cant remember the last Christmas day or Good Friday I drank, but I don't agree with the fact that people are forced to close their businesses when they don't want to.

    If its entirely up to owners when they open then no one can complain about changing cultures or anything like it. You go in to a sector that has the potential to be open every minute of the year . If you don't like that then that's fine, don't go in to that sector. Using the recession as a get out and complaining that theres no other jobs isn't going to wash. Business owners will find people that do want to work those hours I'm sure.

    I spent 10 years working in McDonalds and then retail. When it didn't suit me anymore I got out. Such is life.


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    #83
    borderlinemeath
    Registered Users Posts: 5,339 ✭✭✭borderlinemeath


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    I can do without shopping many days or the year and do. Just like I can do without drink. I cant remember the last Christmas day or Good Friday I drank, but I don't agree with the fact that people are forced to close their businesses when they don't want to.

    Be careful what you wish for. What if you were told that by your boss that "I'm not closing over Christmas because I don't have to (and want to prove a pedantic point)". Would you want to work Christmas Day?
    If its entirely up to owners when they open then no one can complain about changing cultures or anything like it. You go in to a sector that has the potential to be open every minute of the year . If you don't like that then that's fine, don't go in to that sector. Using the recession as a get out and complaining that theres no other jobs isn't going to wash. Business owners will find people that do want to work those hours I'm sure.

    I spent 10 years working in McDonalds and then retail. When it didn't suit me anymore I got out. Such is life.

    It's a different job market now, you and I both know that. So an observation regarding retail such as "when it didn't suit me anymore I got out" doesn't wash these days. People are terrified of losing what job they might have so belittling it further by blithely stating that "you got out" is a bit rich.


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    #84
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    If its entirely up to owners when they open then no one can complain about changing cultures or anything like it. You go in to a sector that has the potential to be open every minute of the year . If you don't like that then that's fine, don't go in to that sector. Using the recession as a get out and complaining that theres no other jobs isn't going to wash. Business owners will find people that do want to work those hours I'm sure.

    This is a terrible attitude to take. Just because someone is willing to do the work under the conditions set doesn't make it right. I don't know what you're doing now you've left McDonalds but you seem to indicate you left because it didn't suit you any more. I assume if what you're doing now doesn't suit you'll leave that to?


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    #85
    P. Breathnach
    Registered Users Posts: 12,089 ✭✭✭✭P. Breathnach


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    ...
    If its entirely up to owners when they open then no one can complain about changing cultures or anything like it.... Business owners will find people that do want to work those hours I'm sure...
    It's far more likely that they will find people who are so economically disadvantaged that they are prepared to sacrifice Christmas and family for a few euros.

    This is not the nineteenth century. We have got to the point where there has been some recognition that employees have lives, and that their needs outside work should be recognised. But there are those who want to turn the clock back and give all the power to the employer, even when that power is used to the detriment of the employee.


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    #86
    Guy:Incognito
    Registered Users Posts: 38,247 ✭✭✭✭Guy:Incognito


    borderlinemeath wrote: »
    Be careful what you wish for. What if you were told that by your boss that "I'm not closing over Christmas because I don't have to (and want to prove a pedantic point)". Would you want to work Christmas Day?

    .

    What if you owned a struggling business and were told when you could and couldn't open to make the money you need?


    We're not talking about children being shoved up chimneys here. It's purely about businesses being able to choose when they want to open for themselves. We have a minimum wage and as long as companies are paying people properly then don't see the issue. No one seemscare that some people work over night in 24 hour garages or people doing roadworks at night to minimise disruption or the people keeping programs on their tv screens on Christmas day.


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    #87
    borderlinemeath
    Registered Users Posts: 5,339 ✭✭✭borderlinemeath


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    What if you owned a struggling business and were told when you could and couldn't open to make the money you need?


    We're not talking about children being shoved up chimneys here. It's purely about businesses being able to choose when they want to open for themselves. We have a minimum wage and as long as companies are paying people properly then don't see the issue. No one seemscare that some people work over night in 24 hour garages or people doing roadworks at night to minimise disruption or the people keeping programs on their tv screens on Christmas day.

    I doubt very much if I ran a business that was struggling that I would open on Christmas day or Stephens Day just because "I could". The premiums I would have to pay staff to work would probably cancel out any profit made. I wouldn't work myself as I have come to the stage in my life where I value my time and time spent with family more than a few quid.

    Having worked in retail I know the fine line between profit and loss. For some stores that trade in the busy areas such as Grafton St or Blanchardstown, Dundrum, more than likely the turnover is usurped with rates, rentals, centre charges, payroll etc. For the majority of high street retailers, the loss leaders are the visible presence on the likes of Grafton St, whereas the profitable stores are in older centres or retail parks.


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    #88
    Procrastastudy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,224 ✭✭✭Procrastastudy


    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    What if you owned a struggling business and were told when you could and couldn't open to make the money you need?

    I'd thank God if legislation came in forcing everyone to close on those two days - that's been the point from the start. My costs would be lower and I wouldn't lose any money because everyone was shut.

    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    We're not talking about children being shoved up chimneys here. It's purely about businesses being able to choose when they want to open for themselves.

    The bleeding obvious seems to be passing you buy here. If we allow businesses to do what they want then this is exactly the situation we will end up in. Given your comments below it seems you're actually in favour of some regulation just not on opening hours? Or just not one opening hours around Xmas? Or is it regulation on working hours you have a problem with?
    Guy:Incognito wrote: »
    We have a minimum wage and as long as companies are paying people properly then don't see the issue. No one seemscare that some people work over night in 24 hour garages or people doing roadworks at night to minimise disruption or the people keeping programs on their tv screens on Christmas day.

    There are a number of 24 hour 365 industries. As has already been covered these industries are set up to deal with that. Retailers use there existing resources to operate over the Xmas period (plus a few temps). The management structures don't change - so the same number of people have to do 10 - 14 days straight of 12 - 16 hour shifts. Again most retail managers don't mind this, as they tend to get the time back / needs of the business. What some do mind about is being forced to open across Xmas day/St. Stephens day for no particularly good reason.


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    #89
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    I would have no problem with a person choosing to work whenever they want, what I would have a problem with is a person forcing another person to work whenever that person wants them to work.

    Usually when you're paying a person to work for you you are paying for
    a) That person's particular skills
    b) That person's time

    The question is what do you put the premium on?

    If you need that person to do something that not many others can do you'd pay the premium on the person's particular skills.
    If you need that person to do something at a time when there's not many others willing to do it then you'd put the premium on that particular person's time.

    That's why you'd pay a doctor more than a barber and why you'd pay a doctor more at midnight than you would at midday.

    Now applying that to retail staff:

    Normal time when everyone is willing to do the work = pay the going rate
    Time when not everyone is willing to do the work (e.g. December the 26th) = pay the going rate + an extra premium

    Now it seems to me that retailers want the best of both worlds at Christmas time, they're assuming that everyone is willing to do the work without putting a premium on their time.


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    #90
    wmpdd3
    Registered Users Posts: 9,624 ✭✭✭wmpdd3


    Normal time when everyone is willing to do the work = pay the going rate
    Time when not everyone is willing to do the work (e.g. December the 26th) = pay the going rate + an extra premium

    Now it seems to me that retailers want the best of both worlds at Christmas time, they're assuming that everyone is willing to do the work without putting a premium on their time.

    Yes but there are ways around this. St Stephan's day should be bank holiday rate (for example time and a third) and a day off in lieu, but since 1997 employers have come up with ways around this.

    So for example an employee could be told to work from the 14th till the 24th straight. They are then owed for a Sunday, so they get 1.33 days off paid in January and If they work St. Stephen's day, they also get another 1.33 days off and 1 days off paid off for Christmas day as they have worked 5 days Christmas week.

    So employee has 3.66 days off paid in January. This now costs the employer no extra money over Christmas at all. All the employer has to do is staff the shop on a skeleton staff for the quietest month of the year.

    And the employee do it until they can get out of retail.


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    #91
    P_1
    Registered Users Posts: 14,681 ✭✭✭✭P_1


    wmpdd3 wrote: »
    Yes but there are ways around this. St Stephan's day should be bank holiday rate (for example time and a third) and a day off in lieu, but since 1997 employers have come up with ways around this.

    So for example an employee could be told to work from the 14th till the 24th straight. They are then owed for a Sunday, so they get 1.33 days off paid in January and If they work St. Stephen's day, they also get another 1.33 days off and 1 days off paid off for Christmas day as they have worked 5 days Christmas week.

    So employee has 3.66 days off paid in January. This now costs the employer no extra money over Christmas at all. All the employer has to do is staff the shop on a skeleton staff for the quietest month of the year.

    And the employee do it until they can get out of retail.

    Interesting, so the employer is using more time as a premium for the employee's time?

    I'd ask how you were to value time but that's probably a bit too Albert Camus for this debate ;)


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